Rishworth Again...... Time to Stick Together

[STOKKEN]

I registered a long time ago on Rishworths website. I wish I had not , as last time they approached me I told them no way. It seems there has been no improvement.

I am very fortunate for the moment because I am in employment.
With an Agency who obviously cares for its Pilots and for an Airline who obviously appreciates a decent Agency even though they have to pay just that little bit more.

However I have just received another offer from this awful Agency who has the audacity to even put in writing what they have on offer for a contract in Asia. Have they not learned, is it because of this Agency ......yes Sir no Sir to the Airline ....we can get you pilots very cheap very cheap !!!!....... that we are not seeing the rise in salaries in the contract market. As one of my pals said.... are they joking I earned more in that country 10 years ago as a Captain on the FK27. And that is true..

I know that there are some guys out there that are not as fortunate as myself for the moment, although all good contracts come to an end, and I will be looking again soon. But if we all said no, we are not working for that salary get stuffed ..........do you think we may well be doing some good for our fellow workers. I think it is time for the Contract Pilot to stand up for their rights. Decent salary , decent accommodation, time off to see our families....
If we all said NO NO NO to this company and others Agencies like them then aircraft will start sitting on the ground, and I think then we may get somewhere.... Otherwise I think the story may be in 10 years time from now..... are you serious I was flying a
FK 27 20 years ago for that money.

We have no Unions we have no Protection but if we told them to get stuffed, I think it would pay in the long run. Contract workers are actually earning less than they did years ago and that is a fact. I know there will be those of you who say you need a job, but there a loads of them out there.......... they need you, you dont need them name your price. Rishworth I think you are a disgrace to Aviation and the people that line your pockets.:mad::mad:

[five iron]

Here Here Stokken,

They called me looking for ATR42 drivers. The wage they offered nearly made me fall off my chair. It was actually insulting!!

Althoughthey are not alone (their are other agencies that try the same game) they are by far the worst. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that they are offering delliberately low rates to obtain business. The effects of this are obviously passed onto the poor b*****d that ends up flying for a shiney penny and sleeping on a flea infested bed! Of course, Rishworth will still walk away with their $1000's. It really gets on my wick!

We try to operate in a professional industry that involves us spending a small fortune to get the specific training and licensing required to be allowed anywhere near a cockpit, just for idiots like Rishworth to come along and slice the market prices to bits. I was always of the impression that contractors got paid more than perm pilots, to reflect the short length of the contract, maybe the incovenience of constant relocation, perhaps even the locatoin itself.

These guys are screwing it for all of us, and I for one will no longer bend over and take up the.............!!!!!

Rant over, for now!
:*

[matkat]

From an engineering perspective I found this shoddy outfit exactly the same.

[Phileas Fogg]

Have heard similar things about Rishworth's however there is something to be borne in mind.

If for instance the position is in a poorer country then that is reflected in the salary. An agency, on it's database, may have several hundred suitably qualified pilots, they haven't got the time or resources to contact all individually thus they will 'mailshot' all as one.

That mailshot is sent to everyone suitably qualified, accepted that a pilot in Western Europe may turn his nose up, take offence to the salary on offer but at the same time a pilot in, effectively bankrupt, Argentina will already be packing his bags to take up the position at such a good salary.

Both pilots are equally and suitably qualified, one doesn't want it, the other one does!

[Engineer]

If for instance the position is in a poorer country then that is reflected in the salary.

Does this hold water when the airline is charging international rates on ticket sales.

Having worked in a few poorer countries the local cockpit crew earned slightly less than me. Taking the cost of living into account in the end these guys were far better off than I.

If the agency are offering low wages then maybe their cut of the package deal is large

[five iron]

If the agency are offering low wages then maybe their cut of the package deal is large

Spot on Engineer. You can bet you're bottom dollar that although the wage is low they will still be taking their more than ample slice of the pie!

The problem is that the airline will try to instigate a budget, more than likely unrealistically low. Then comes along Rishworth and says, yeah, alright, no problem. They then slice their bit of action of it, which leaves very little. If they had been realistic to start with, and said that the budget was not high enough, then there would not be any issue.

I appreciate that ICAO countries have lower payscales (most of the time), but it doesn't help if these t***s pander to them.

And again I refer to Engineers post, you can guarantee that the airline will be charging international prices. According to Airbus, they have a middle class population larger than the collective population of Europe (over 300Million!!!!!!!!) That is a lot of people ready to pay for domestic air travel!

[STOKKEN]

quote :-

That mailshot is sent to everyone suitably qualified, accepted that a pilot in Western Europe may turn his nose up, take offence to the salary on offer but at the same time a pilot in, effectively bankrupt, Argentina will already be packing his bags to take up the position at such a good salary.


Hmm. Not sure I get your point here PF.. Why should an Argentinian be paid less?? than a Westerner. When you work on a contract it is the same for us all you know. Missing the delights of home, family, friends, Hotel rooms instead of your home.

Sorry Mate but hate to hear this ...heard this somewhere else before. Any pilot going on a contract to anywhere should be paid the same salary., being South American, Western European or wherever....... its the principle.. anway whatever.... Rishworth are killing the market....... And it is about time we didn`t accept it whatever our nationality. It appears by the way that those on the Vietnam contract held 8 years ago by PARC are now earning less money than they did 8 years ago. ........ guess who has the contract.....there will come a time that we won`t come running wherever we may come from.:* :*

[Miles Hi]

I don't think thats the point being made. I think whats being said is, that relatively speaking (compared to the respective salaries on offer) the salary on offer is poor for Europeans, but high for South Americans.

In my opinion, most South Americans would jump for salaries we Europeans would turn our nose up to - simply because it's a huge increase on salary in their home country.

[fourplay]

I wrote an e-mail to the training manager of Rishworths in Nov 04
I also copied it to the admin manager in case he was absent.

I was enquiring in regard to cabin crew training to get re- val on B737 for an Urgent Middle East contract.

A service they promote on their poxy website.
To this day I have never heard back from anyone.

Thanks very much Rishworth! :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

[Phileas Fogg]

(Why should an Argentinian be paid less??)

Stokken,
Miles Hi has responded already but the question is, why should a European be paid more?

European's have the monopoly in 'JAR Land' but once outside of JAR they're competing with the rest of the ICAO world.
That third world operator, looking for pilots on a restricted budget, if you were running a business, would you paid vastly over the required salary to fill that front seat on your aeroplane? Perhaps a noble gesture to do so but not a way to stay in business.

Yes, when working on a contract it is the same for all of us, ICAO salaries, we can take it or leave it, we all have a choice!

Home, family, friends, hotel rooms instead of home! Ever thought of looking for employment in your own back yard?

Many airlines, countries, do not charge the referred to 'international' air fares. You go to a travel agent in some countries, you'll get a ticket by far cheaper than you would by buying it at 'international' rates.

[Nightrider]

Yes, indeed, 10 years ago the salary on the FK27 was the same rate as they offer these days on the 737.
But again, was it not this Scandinavian representative T....l who made all and sundry believe that he holds the Atlas Blue contract on exclusive rights? And when asked, why his pay was a couple of hundred €€€ less than others, he explained in a lengthy argument as to why the others are able to offer more...contradicting his own words about the exclusive rights...
STAY AWAY....the only advise I have. And as for Inida...always doble check the accomodation, nothing less than a 5 star is acceptable, all expenses are double as for nationals...let alone a simple phone call back home....
As a TRE/TRI on 737NG a 5-digit U$ is the start of every discussion.

[five iron]

European's have the monopoly in 'JAR Land' but once outside of JAR they're competing with the rest of the ICAO world.

Phileas, I am sorry but I don't think that just because I decide to look for work outside of 'JAR land' that I should have to lower my expectation of wage. Maybe if it was flying DH6 in the maldives, I would consider peanuts, but especially not India.

If their are pilots available that will work for the budget they have then great, every one is happy. But if I am approached I will tell them what I am worth, and it doesn't help my case when agencies like Rishworth are providing what is suposed to be a specialist conultancy to the airline telling them that I will work for next to nothing, while they take their 1000bucks just to pull my name of a databse (not that I am registered with them any more by the by).

I would have thought that any pilot would follow this rule. I have certainly never met a non managerial pilot who is all in for the idea of reducing wages. Which leads me to the question Phileas me old mate, are you management, beancounter or agency worker (Rishworth perhaps?)? :ok:

[Phileas Fogg]

5 Iron,
Please don't call me a beancounter, that really is offensive:8

Let's just say I have a very knowledgeable insight into how agencies work, no, not Rishworths.

Agencies, as a rule of thumb, don't work on a flat fee of perhaps USD1,000, they work on a percentage thus the higher the salary, the more they make, the lower the salary, the less they make.

Some agencies will 'prostitute' themselves lower than others, 'yes sir, we can get you pilots for next to nothing, you just leave it to us'. and just to secure the contract.

Other agencies, with better things to do than hunt high and low for pilots prepared to work for next to nothing, will try to get the rates increased.

All I'd say is that salaries are determined by market conditions. In ICAO land they don't need to pay JAR salaries, it's as straightforward as that and please bear in mind, that whilst you may be offended at a particular salary on offer, the agency could have worked damn hard to get it to that rate from the p1ss p00r offer it started at.

A polite declination to an email costs nothing! If you get them on the phone trying to give you the 'hard sell' then by all means, foxtrot oscar might be appropriate!

[agent]

I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but the thread regarding agencies that was a hot topic of discussion on Friday seems to have mysteriously disappeared? Any of the moderators care to say why?

Thanks in advance:confused:

[Wu Oscar]

Hello Agent

Yes I noticed too, my first participation on PPRUNE too... do they take things off for any reason ..........

Thought it was rather interesting for us contractors actually.
do they give reasons........... strange... perhaps the M is in cahoots with one of the mentioned. xpect this will be my last post too.

Au revoir.................

[Yobbo]

The topic about the agencies was deleted yesterday by mistake. The person who started the topic posted a message yesterday, saying that he ended up deleting the whole thread by mistake when he only intended to edit something.

[five iron]

Would that be one of our pilot bretheren pressing a wrong button again!!:} :ok:

[Janus_1971]

I don't get it. If they are not offering you enough, say no.

Where is the problem?

[five iron]

Have you read the rest of this thread or are you just posting for fun?

[Janus_1971]

Read it, amazed how much people in the Northern Hemisphere whinge.

[Nightrider]

Janus, and you won't believe how many people in the Northern Hemisphere are interested in decent working conditions, not humiliating ones created by R........

This is not a bashing against you, it is just the frustration a lot of us have these days. There are plenty of nice jobs around, R.... jumps on the bandwaggn and all goes pearshaped. Fortunately, some agency customers learn quickly that peanuts salaries and second class circumstances and/or environments can only attract monkeys to test the waters....

[Janus_1971]

Nightrider, thanks for your input.

I apologise for my earlier comment. It was very tongue in cheek!

However, I do have to agree with Phileas Fogg. It is about supply and demand. If other agents are offering better contracts, pilots will deal with them.

If Rishworth can supply pilots at cheaper prices then why would they pay more?

[Phileas Fogg]

(some agency customers learn quickly that peanuts salaries and second class circumstances and/or environments can only attract monkeys)

OK, so every national, of every country, which has an economy less than that of Western Europe, is a monkey!

Racist!

[chimbu warrior]

I think a lot of people reading and responding to this topic are unaware of what happens outside their own backyard.

I am not defending or promoting poor pay and conditions, merely reminding some readers that many countries in the world have
- no paid unemployment benefits
- little or nothing in the way of social welfare benefits
- very few employment options locally for unemployed pilots
- weak local currency

Therefore when you are faced with unemployment (unpaid) and
- high mortgage payments and high interest rates
- high cost of children's education (to give them a better life)
- rampant inflation
- perhaps parents and brothers & sisters to support too
- no chance to get an airline job in your own country..............
...........then suddenly you are very keen to obtain ANY flying job, lest you sucumb to starvation/homelessness/family breakup.

Remember an Argentinian or Phillipino or Bulgarian did not choose to be born in those countries; being born in Europe or North America or Australia does not make you better - just luckier.

So if someone, through economic necessity, takes a position that you choose not to take, it does not mean he is trying to undermine your T & C's. It may just mean that he is trying to stay alive.

Finally, if you are in a secure position with a national carrier, please resist the temptation to look down upon those who have taken lower paying jobs. Unless you are faced with unemployment and any or all of the difficulties listed above, you simply cannot appreciate what an invidious position you may find yourself in.