BA Cabin Crew shortages...again!

[DarkStar]

Can someone enlighten me, but for several weeks BA has been operating sectors with mail and cargo only but no passengers because of Cabin Crew shortfalls. A mate of mine turned up to find his flight had been cancelled for 'operational reasons' then the A/c departed in front of the passengers!! The snow on the Eastern Seaboard was the initial reason but that was weeks ago! Rumours abound that non-existant crew were rostered for trips and of course they 'no-showed'. I've heard that BA have chartered in all sorts of A/c including to cover including Air Luxor L1011's to TPA. What's REALLY going on?????

[AIRWAY]

DarkStar,

Air Luxor doesnt operate L1011 any more. But last week they (BA) did operate Air Luxor's A330.

Airway

[apaddyinuk]

I sense a nosey reporter here!!!

But for the record....TPA and MCO back to BA crews again! Take into consideration that LGW are minus aircraft at the mo due to the final Dusking of the last of our 777s!

[DarkStar]

It's frustrating to have that gibe chucked in. I know the BA operation pretty well, but the Crew shortage issue...which seems to occur every few months never seems to be resolved and the reasons are always vague. However, you cannot expect passengers to accept the fact that their A/c takes off to LHR without them!!!

[apaddyinuk]

Maybe so but the airline havent actually said anything official regarding the matter and anything on this would be simple hear say and something which could be taking totally out of context by any reporters who happen to be hunting for a story against the airline!!!
So until something official is said, then we can criticise (is that spelt right!!! duhh!!!) all we want!

[DarkStar]

I've just noticed that there is a long thread on 'Rumours' regarding BA Crew and U.S Visas which has a lot of comment upon my original question....

Whatever the cause, its poor PR for BA ...yet again.

[HZ123]

Sorry to dissapoint chaps but the a/c has had a major breakdown at LHR and has been removed to the base and placed during the day in TBJ. There has also been a problem with the Sex and Vice A330.

I have seen Darkstar make cutting remarks before but do not credit him with reporting skills even for the 'Sun'. Sadly some of his observations are correct and finds BA all to often in a shambolic state pleading one excuse or another. It is time the management of BA did just that and broke the stranglehold that is Bassa, Balpa& the TGWU.

[sammypilot]

Does TBJ stand for "To be Junked?"

[DarkStar]

Spoke to a WW CSD last night who'd just flown in from NRT, apparently loads of sectors have been flown 'empty' including NRT/LHR's and BA are trying to find routes to sub charter where the 'competition' is 'poor' ...e.g NBO. Her view was that BA was too frightened to admit that they cannot take on crew issues for fear of a summer of unrest and by flying empty sectors they won't be recorded as cancellations! Try telling that to the 300 plus pax left behind!:mad:

[maxy101]

No profit share this year then?

[sixmilehighclub]

BA back up their operations very well with standby, available, ring-in and QRS shifts.

In addition theres always crew queuing for overtime.

BA have had a 747 available on standby for the tsunami releif runs.

BA are also in ongong recruitment for eurofleet and as a result are transferring existing eurofleet crew over to worlwide at a pretty fast rate to cover retirements and future operations.

Some airlines have a policy of only following the minimum JAR-OPS crewing levels. BA follow the JAR-OPS minimum also, but also crew their aircraft depending on passenger loads, so will call out more crew for an operation if there is a heavier load. I've never been on a flight yet which has had problems with crewing.

[Carnage Matey!]

BA back up their operations very well with standby, available, ring-in and QRS shifts.

For 'very well' read 'very expensively and ineffectively'. Or we wouldn't be short of crew now would we?

BA have had a 747 available on standby for the tsunami releif runs.

Dream on. It was at least a week before any 747 could be made available and even that required a flight from NRT to be cancelled so the aircraft could be flown direct to BKK. Spare aircraft are nothing more than a pipedream for 90% of any given month.

I've never been on a flight yet which has had problems with crewing

I've been on loads with invol downgrades to Eurotraveller because there weren't sufficicent crew according to their 'matrix' to seat them in club. Thats not including any of the scores of flights over the last 2 years that have had cabins capped and First closed due to crewing shortages. This airline is rapidly becoming a laughing stock.

[DarkStar]

Six Mile High - Loads of First class cabins have been closed due Cabin Crew shortage and the Unions refused moving the crew to cover the premium cabin from other cabins and then the remaining crew get an extra payment for working one down!

Thousands of other areas are working below profile but they have to get on with it, without any extra payment. Only in BA!

Rod Eddington are you listening?:rolleyes:

[BA Boi]

DarkStar et al:

You don't have ANY idea what you are talking about. The vast majority of these cancellations were probably due to the fact that the flights that were cancelled probably didn't have the onboard passenger loads to justify it. They would have been re-booked onto another flight at little or no cost to us, thus saving us a considerable amount of money. This is definitely not an un-heard of practise - ALL airlines do it.

Crew shortages? You've got to be joking! I'm currently on a transfer list to LHR WorldWide - that hasn't moved for over a month. Now, if there was this supposed crew shortage problem they would be moving us cabin crew on EuroFleet over to WW at a rate of knots as all the new entrant cabin crew in EF (and there are LOADS of them) would balance out our transfer. So there is obviously no problem with crew imbalances. Also, from what I hear the amount of crew on 24 hour availability is unbelieveable - again, if the problem was crew-related all these crew on standby would be called to duty.

And don't get bashing our unions - the reason why people apply to come to BA hand over fist is because of the terms and conditions that they have secured for us. We are not the community who fingers should be pointing to - rather try our grossly overpaid, underworked, useless management structure. They have alot to answer for.

'Nuff said.:cool:

[DarkStar]

BA Boi, so what's your take on the First Class cabins being closed due Crew shortage and the refusal of the unions to allow the cabin to be crewed from other cabins - like any sensible Airline would strive to do? ...and of course the payments for working one down??

[BA Boi]

DarkStar:

My answer is: I TOTALLY AGREE WITH IT. The capping of cabins has been happening for YEARS. It is an AGREEMENT between the company and the unions (as is the payment involved) that whenever a certain situation arises, that this is the path to follow. Simple as that. At the end of the day the company agreed to it and they wouldn't have done had they thought that it was un-sustainable either in the days when it was agreed or in years to come.
Don't get on your little soap-box and question our agreements if your departments union/s weren't able to negotiate for you similar terms and conditions etc etc etc that ours have negotiated for us. I'm sick and tired of the other departments in BA demonising the cabin crew just because we have managed to secure a fabulous Indusrial Agreement for ourselves.

SO HONEY, GET OVER IT - BECAUSE IT AIN'T GONNA CHANGE!!! ;)

P.S. The cabin was probably capped because there were only one or two FIRST pax in the cabin - and it was cheaper for the company to give all operational crew a working one down payment than to pay another crew member all allowances for a whole trip.

[ZQA297/30]

Ah, so that's it then, this is really just an exercise in operational efficiency and sensible cost cutting.
No need to flap at all, chaps.

[Human Factor]

...and the downgraded First passengers will travel with BA again because....

[AIRWAY]

... BA is the worlds favourite airline.

[Anti-ice]

Err BAboi, i feel you are a little deluded if you think we have such 'fabulous' contracts and T & C's ....

Morale has been bad at BA since 1997 the original 'BEP' and has steadily got worse ever since ,regularly hitting many all time lows.

BA has taken on the challenges to survive since 2001 agressively and without hesitation.

Perhaps they are now taking comfort from the fact that its in fairly strong position compared to its competitors.
It has launched many new products,cut thousands of jobs and slashed prices while maintaining a modestly young ,simple fleet and new aircraft investement.

However ,many storm clouds have been left in the wake of this situation, and staff have paid many sacrifices too.

We have some ludicrously low levels of crew on some flights ,and gorund staff are unable to fulfil their duties re : lack of manpower.

Many staff are shattered,stressed, disillusioned with very low morale.
We do not have the resources to do our job properly, and have no backup from those above.

Cabin crew are currently being held to ransom over their pay,over another draconian policy they want to bring in.

So where the fabulous comes in, i'll never know......

[cheeryguy]

Darkstar et al
Look at the logistics of closing cabins. An economy cabin with approx 300 pax needs a minimum of crew to operate effectively and safely. The service to pax is paramount however, there are many other duties that need to be completed (most safety and security related so I won't post details here) and these duties cannot be compromised. Removing a couple of crew to operate in First would do just this. In many cases when First is closed it is done with much regret; however it is not done randomly. Flights will be selected that have very low F loads or flights that would have been filled with upgrades from other cabins. To those pax who are downgraded it is regrettable but much more manageable than closing the economy cabins, any suggestions on how to accommodate the 300 odd pax who will be on non flexible tickets and will show for the flight??? The only other alternative is to cancel the flight and no one gets to go anywhere.
On a more personal note, I am sick to the back teeth of so called aviations experts, posting or printing in the case of the media, scurrilous slurs on the character of BA crew. I am an in charge crew member with BA and give my all at work, I expect the same of my crew and do my darndest to motivate them and keep them going through the hardest of sectors. If you don’t like BA then find another way of getting there. Give some thought to the company you work for and their short comings, how would you feel if bashing the organisation you represent was a national sport, I believe it might begin to feel a little personal. I look forward to the day when the British press print an accurate and unbiased report relating to BA, I won’t hold my breath.

[BA Boi]

Bravo!!! Well said, cheeryguy. :ok:

As for Anti-ice:

The fabulous Industrial Agreement I was refering to was the one relating to CABIN CREW. And (once again this is CABIN CREW specific), I think that you'll find that in comparison to ALL other UK carriers and most European and other airlines around the world, that our T&C's stand head and shoulders above the rest, and can indeed be said to be... fabulous.:E

[DarkStar]

Cheeryguy, I wasn't suggesting that the M or WT cabin be closed to provide Crew for F class! I was thinking that couldn't the crew be shuffled around to cover the F class especially as you point out we try and 'target' low F class booked flights. This may mean a poorer service down the back, but its the premium cabins where the money is made.

Ba Boi....looks like most people don't share your view of the world...:E

[sixmilehighclub]

Carnage Matey/ Darkstar

Sorry, are you confusing me with someone else?

I don't remember commenting on First Cabins being closed, or on whether crewing levels are cost effective, or how long it took to have a 747 available for Tsunami relief and where the aircraft came from.

I will apologise though for blatently fibbing by saying I've never been on a flight with crewing issues, you obviously know my travel history better than me. Refresh my memory, when did I last have a flight with a crewing issue??

Seriously though:

I'm sorry for anyone who ever suffers a downgrade, especially if its a once in a lifetime flight they've been looking forward to, but hopefully they receive the recompense and an acceptable and friendly service in the cabin they end up travelling in.

I am also sorry for anyone who was in BA pre '96 / on the old contract, and are unhappy, I interviewed many long term BA crew and many are stuck in a job they cant afford financially to leave, things have changed and morale indeed may be lowering, but the influx of new entrants means there is more crew coming online with the enthusiasm the more experiencd once had when they started. If you are peeved with the way the company is run, please dont bring their morale down too.

[Classic]

The point is that it's hard for the travelling public to sympathise with the cabin crew when they know it's their union who insist on the flight going without passengers, due to the terms of their agreement.

There was huge disruption to the flight schedules with the recent bad weather on the East Coast of the USA and required a large amount of rejigging of the crews. However there is little or no flexibility in the Cabin Crew agreements to accommodate shortages of particular crew members (esp Pursers) and the union just refuses to grant alleviations to the company.

It's a pity for us who want to travel, and who find the individual cabin crews excellent, but suffer because those crews won't stand up to their union and do that little bit more than the union allows.

[traveller5]

Two things; 1. AIRWAY - BA isn't world's favourite airline and that's why they were forced to drop the logo from their ads and 2. why is it just BA that have these eternal problems? Virgin, Charter airlines, BMI, Easyjet etc all operate their schedules effectively. The issue and utter mess lie with both weak and poor management since BA crews seem to do as they please....messing up the operation and customers (remember the people who pay the wages??) continually.
And before people start screaming at me, I am a frequent traveller and want BA to succeed as SOMETIMES they provide a good service, BUT in the past 6 months I have changed to VS because the service is more reliable and because the customer comes first, not last.

(BA crews now frantically searching the dictionaries for the meaning of 'customer'...)

[RevMan Plan]

The issue of F cabin being closed (and there a number of these coming up over the weekend) is just a side issue here.
The real issue is the lack of crew being scheduled.
Already rather than cancel a flight and leave loads of pax behind (many at the start of half term) BA has had to charter flights to ensure it does not end up with 000s of pax at LHR and the possibility of a punch-up.

Why is there a lack of crew?
Numerous reason such as poor planning, a system with a "few" problems and management not owning up to the problem (or underestimating it).
Also as its half-term week the number of "sick" crew increases (just like over xmas and wimbledon fortnight).

In amongst this "who is to blame", the situation gets exasperated when you have inflexible working contract....a normal company when understaff will call-out to its other staff (with the right skills) and offer overtime and other incentives to cover.
At BA is not allowed to offer overtime for those off duty - as former BA crew sometimes in winter a 3-4day break gets boring.

So to the likes of BA Boi, it may be rosy from where you are, but when you work in the commercial hub and each day you have to work very hard to ensure customers choose BA over others, you sometimes have to wonder why crew and their unions are so inflexible.

PS: Heard shortage of rostered CSDs for another batch of cancellations.

[AIRWAY]

traveller5, do you really believe this only happens to BA?

:rolleyes:

[DarkStar]

AIRWAY - I'm sure other airlines have the odd blip, but with us its every month or so!

Traveller 5 - I appreciate and sympathise your comments, working alongside Crewing its frustrating seeing how the Unions run the operation, but don't give up on BA just yet.

RevMan Plan - thanks for your insight. Glad to see some Watersider's thinking the same as Compass.

Apparently nearly 50 Crew called in sick yesterday (half term:rolleyes: ) and we've more F Class cabin closures....its so frustrating, just as we seemed to be turning the corner as well.:ouch:

[sixmilehighclub]

Traveller5 -

I understand it's frustrating when you are loyal to a business supplier and they leave you feeling let down. Been there many times. Sorry you feel this way about BA.

Many factors effect reliability, weather, security, catering supply, passenger timekeeping, passengers failing to board, crew transport, late inbound flights, technical problems, etc, etc. From BA's recently reported acheived operating figures for punctuality, etc, it sounds like you have been very unfortunate, I'd be pretty peeved too.

However, slating ALL British Airways cabin crew as you have is so very unfair. I can only assume you can confidently make this comment as you have been served by all 13,000 of them?

Some crew can be thoughtless yes, and it makes me frustrated when I come accross them, but this is the same with any airline.
The vast majority of BA crew work hard to please the customers, often going beyond the basics. I can give many examples where crew that have made that extra effort.

Think how it feels to be courteous, considerate, patient and supportive to up to 800 strangers a day. BA have been going longer too, some of their crew have been working for 40 years.

As DarkStar says, dont give up on them yet. Things are changing.

[traveller5]

AIRWAY - Yes, the current mess does ONLY go on at BA and I have first hand experience of it! From a customer's point of view, BA has become pretty unreliable! Will the flight actually go? Will I be told my class of travel is only 50% available because of "crewing problems"? Will the crew throw the food at me or will they be brilliant? Will I be sitting in First while one of the pilots comes to munch his meal next to me?( maybe it's a compliment as I suppose the pilots like to see the people who pay their wages!).
Believe me, us mere passengers notice every last detail.

While other airlines have their fare share of problems never have I had to reschedule meetings/important trips than I have because of BA in the last 12 mths. Would you like a detailed account of what is actually going on with cancellations etc? No doubt, in your eyes, there is no problem and it's business as usual.
The biggest kick in the teeth was when I checked in for the BA007 to Tokyo to be told the First class cabin could only take 6 passengers as there was a "crewing problem". What the check-in agent didn't know was that I'd heard the same excuse 4 times recently..and to be honest I couldn't be bothered making a fuss, but cancelled my return sector and rebooked with Japan Airlines - who offered me what I'd paid for.
As for giving up, I have started using VS and am pretty impressed with their level of customer service and overall commitment. They don't have First, but at least in their Upper Class Suite I'm not sharing a pillow with one of the drivers.

Praying someone at BA will realise they are letting "us lot" down!

[pollypocket36]

Hey there Traveller5. I'm sorry to hear about you unfortunate experiences with BA. There is no excuse for it really. If you've paid for First, then you should get it. Times are changing crew wise though. Yes, we do have some people who are grumpy and bitter. VS do too, as I should know. I used to work for them. However, the majority of crew are polite, professional and very customer orientated. This has been proven by recent surveys completed by customers. I will say that no matter what results an airline or company achieve, they can always do better. BA are trying drastically to do this.

[BA Boi]

Dark Star:

This was never an issue of how many people share or don't share my view. Quite frankly, it really doesn't bother me. :}

RevMan Plan:

1) Is it ONLY the cabin crew community who's sickness levels increase at certain times of the year? I think that you'll find that that is certainly NOT the case. And while we are on the subject of sickness levels, may i just point out that, contrary to many peoples beliefs, our sickness rates ARE NOT the highest in the company. There are a couple of departments who are comfortably ahead of us in that area.

2) Cabin Crew cannot do overtime in other departments as we are on a FLYING contract, not a GROUND contract. Also there are strict rules (imposed by the CAA and JAR-OPS) relating to our rest after duties. Anyway, I'm sure that most crew after doing a trip wouldn't in a million years dream of doing overtime in a ground-based roll even if we could! Yawn!

3) Put quite simply, we as a section of the company and our union, BASSA, have learnt that if we are flexible and give an inch the management take a bloody mile. We, unlike other areas in the company, are correctly VERY weary of management and refuse to roll-over and take it. Many other departments have done and look what a state they are in and how much lower their morale is! As usual we will stand our ground and when they end up not taking anything away from us because of that fact, yet again, we will be the envy of the other departments in this company. You just have to accept that this is how the cabin crew always have been; are and always will be. Simple as that.