NJS Preferred Bidder [Archive]

BAE146

16th Jan 2005, 09:18

..............JetStar are recruiting BIG TIME!.................they are so desperate, they are now re-assessing applicants that were previously knocked back and giving them slots ! If NJS pilots opt to stay on the 146 instead of coffing up for a 717 conversion the sh!t will hit the fan for NJS....................they will of course say "no 717 rating - no job"..................to which the pilots will say "stiff!" and go out and apply to JetStar direct!

NJS would be wise to tread very carefully on their re-tender for this contract........you're not dealing with mining companies here boys !!!!!!

Capn Bloggs

16th Jan 2005, 11:28

Yep, I definitely want some of whatever you're on, BAe.

MIss Behaviour

16th Jan 2005, 23:04

Dog One

There is a BAe 146 ground school kicking off today in AD.

RENURPP

17th Jan 2005, 01:15

I was told by a certain person (regular on this forum) that Jetstar had 2 x A320's parked up against a fence as they were as yet unable to crew them.

Is this rumour True or False?

Rogeramjet181

17th Jan 2005, 11:09

For what little it may be worth and my source is nothing more than an un substantiated rumour, QF aims to keep its profits in house and thereby let Jet* do its thing with the boe-ing.

:cool:

SeaEagle

18th Jan 2005, 04:46

:confused:

The decision was apparently made today. Anyone actually know what it was?

Capn Bloggs

18th Jan 2005, 12:49

Apparently I haven't been told, and since SWMBO is going to SMS me immediately it is, apparently it wasn't made today!
So, Sea Eagle, apparently you'll be the second to know after me!:D

TOPC

19th Jan 2005, 01:20

Can anyone confirm that Jetstar will keep the 717s.
If this is the case,what does this now mean to National Jet .

hws__ils

19th Jan 2005, 01:24

Just read on another thread that Jet* have got it...Will see what transpires.

Howard Hughes

19th Jan 2005, 02:17

Me thinks it will go to National Jet, with initial crewing/training provided by Jetstar. Why would Qantas mess with a time tested method of covering the "thinner' routes in their network?

Qantas gets coverage at a very reasonable rate with not much risk to them. National Jet streamline their operation so as not to be overburdened by costs and run a profitable organisation. It's a win win situation for all.

With the resulting increase in capacity provided by the 717, I do'nt think Qantas will want to take the risk associated with the increase in capacity on these more marginal routes.

They charge premium prices on most of these routes and it is a nice little earner for them. From what I have seen load factors are good and the cost to Qantas is minimal. Why change it?

I think Qantas have bigger fish to fry with the Jetstar operation.

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

PS: Take a look around bean-counters running everything, ask your self which is cheaper? In house or contract? You only have to look at catering, cleaning, baggage handling, trans-tasman flights, everything is being contracted out. The only place Qantas keeps thing's in house, is where they see a financial/competetive advantage for doing so.

chimbu warrior

19th Jan 2005, 04:05

Whoever gets it, I imagine the 717's will again be painted in QF Link colours.....................some of them must be getting @rse-heavy carrying so many coats of painon the tail..........Impulse scheme 1, Impulse scheme 2, QantasLink, Jetstar........and now QantasLink again.

Add another couple of units of forward trim fellas!

topend3

19th Jan 2005, 08:42

PS: Take a look around bean-counters running everything, ask your self which is cheaper? In house or contract? You only have to look at catering, cleaning, baggage handling, trans-tasman flights, everything is being contracted out. The only place Qantas keeps thing's in house, is where they see a financial/competetive advantage for doing so.

Howard- that what i think qf will be doing whoever it goes to,

your point???

TOPC

21st Jan 2005, 01:47

Does anyone know when the announcement in due to be made ?

Cart_tart

21st Jan 2005, 04:45

nope. i wish they would hurry up and tell us!
:confused:

scramjet77

21st Jan 2005, 23:15

Nothing but 6 pages of BULL**** in the latest company news letter. So nothing new at the moment.

virgindriver

24th Jan 2005, 20:29

Does anyone know? I thought the announcement to staff was yesterday......

ditzyboy

24th Jan 2005, 22:27

It was mid December, then 31 December, then 19 January... Still waiting...

apacau

25th Jan 2005, 03:23

I heard from a contact in QF management yesterday that he believes Jetstar have won the contract. However, I have no way to confirm/verify this.

only if

25th Jan 2005, 14:30

Does it realy matter, as national jet is close to one of the worst run GA companies I have seen and the posts dont seem to indicate that jet star is any better

rescue 1

25th Jan 2005, 19:30

only if it effects the people in NJS as they will loose their job, and then have to jump through the QF hoops to get a chance at the B717. Being unemployed is never a good thing.

Capn Bloggs

25th Jan 2005, 23:28

Only if,
Does it realy matter, as national jet is close to one of the worst run GA companies I have seen and the posts dont seem to indicate that jet star is any better
Apparently not to you. If you can't be civil or at least justify your theories, how about you stay off the board and stop wasting my download time.

BAE146

25th Jan 2005, 23:49

rescue1..............there will be plenty of jobs going around. if any of the NJS pilots are made redundant they will get jobs with Jetstar............a mate of mine down in Oz starts with Jet* next month and he reckons they will be recruiting heaps.............only snag will be if the new pilots can't (won't) pay for the A320 endorsements.:ok:

rtforu

26th Jan 2005, 04:25

Do NJS ask you to pay for your endorsement?

OperationsNormal

26th Jan 2005, 06:00

ONLY IF:

You have obviously never worked for NJS. They are most professional organisation I have worked for. Including the big Q. Without all the bul**** that goes with the Q.

skyways

26th Jan 2005, 07:10

so does anyone know when the announcement date is likely to actually be, assuming it doesn't get put off again?

Capn Bloggs

26th Jan 2005, 11:40

Thursday, yes Thursday (padded for Prune) :ugh:

CaptHairDryer

27th Jan 2005, 04:29

I have heard through a NJS bigwig that we have the contract, training begins June 30 for a July 1 start date. We will head out to the tarmac in the wee hours of July 1, and there it will stand, the 717, a quick read of the manual before an early departure. Nice one QANTAS!!!!! nobs

Grove

27th Jan 2005, 05:44

I was told by a Jetstar manager this morning that it has gone to Jetstar and we should know tomorrow[friday] or Monday at the latest....Who knows!!

Capt Claret

27th Jan 2005, 12:40

Gee it's amazing how many Jetstar managers are willing to let information that must be commercially confidential slip before QF makes the announcement. :hmm:

AerocatS2A

27th Jan 2005, 13:04

Capt Claret it's just a ploy to see which employees or friends you can trust with sensitive information.

Jetstar Mangement Dude: Hey Grove, Jetstar got the contract it should be public by tomorrow.

Grove: [blurts out sensitive information on international, public forum]

JMD: [strikes Grove off list of people he can trust]

Grove

27th Jan 2005, 20:27

It is a rumour forum after all..... What are you doing here if you are looking for the truth.. Although I am telling the truth. Lets all wait and see!!

cunninglinguist

30th Jan 2005, 11:13

Sorry guys u r all wrong
The 717s are going to the TL refueller for outstanding service to aviation:cool:

F/O Bloggs

31st Jan 2005, 01:15

Clearly some one is in the Know. Check out this web site and scroll down to the Qantas link section.

http://www.sub.net.au/~flitedux/

"AIRSPEED BLOGGS!"

:ok:

Capn Bloggs

31st Jan 2005, 02:31

Rubbish Bloggs. IF NJS get the 717, their chooks will be dual-endorsed with the 146, so no new jobs.

Capt Claret

31st Jan 2005, 03:17

Whilst I don't believe the add for cabin crew indicates that any one knows as opposed to is guessing I do think more CC will be needed by NJS as the mooted cabin config will require 4 CC not the current 2 or 3.

oil additive

31st Jan 2005, 06:21

Will QANTAS please put us out of our misery and announce what should have been announced over a month ago!!!:confused:

My wife has banned me from talking about the "C" word in her presence.

scramjet77

31st Jan 2005, 06:26

Hey Grove,

It's past close of business Monday and;

" was told by a Jetstar manager this morning that it has gone to Jetstar and we should know tomorrow[friday] or Monday at the latest....Who knows!!"

Either your source is terribly unreliable or you are completely filled to the brim with SH1T!!

SeaEagle

31st Jan 2005, 06:29

Timing is everything!

The NJS Little newsletter didn’t get published on Friday. I was expecting to see it today - but still nothing.

My bet is the 717 decisions has been made. But the announcement is being held for some reason.

I wish they’d hurry up….
:confused:

scramjet77

31st Jan 2005, 06:39

Sea Eagle, Yes it did, but was realeased fairly late. Basically 4 pages of Bulldust saying nothing.

Capn Bloggs

31st Jan 2005, 12:58

Scram,

That's a bit below the belt considering your background! Be nice about your new employer!;)

flyingfox

31st Jan 2005, 13:44

Anyone seen 'Grove' ?

the sleuth

31st Jan 2005, 14:05

apparently an adelaide based operator of jets has cancelled some sim slots at alteon...prolly means narfink..dyareckon:confused:

Kornholio

31st Jan 2005, 14:19

Anyone seen my groove?

Why don't you all settle down and wait. All will be revealed. Wirraway will bust a gut to be the first to let you know as soon as something happens.

Personally my dough is on JetSlur as they are less of a shambles than National Debt and also they are not staffed by whinging whining bad-airmanship-exhibiting 89ers.

Sorry nothing personal but I have seen evidence of all of those qualities amongst those old farts. :ooh:

:oh:

:sad:

:bored:

:hmm:

:zzz:

Woomera

31st Jan 2005, 17:00

Kornholio wrote:Anyone seen my groove?

No. And neither will you until such time as you can offer a positive contribution to these furums.

Goodbye.

Capt Basil Brush

1st Feb 2005, 09:54

Why the big delay in the announcement?

Would it be because they are still evaluating both tenders, or the decision has been made, and they are purposely holding back the announcement?

Are they worried about a mass exodus from NJS if it goes J* way, thereby creating crewing problems at NJS before the chang-over?

Or, maybe NJS have it, and they are still working out the finer details?

Questions??

No answers - yet.

TOPC

2nd Feb 2005, 10:22

When do the National Jet 146 leases start to expire ?
I was told the first is at the end of this month ! Is this true.?

NS Driver

2nd Feb 2005, 11:28

From www.Smiliner.com

Filipino airline Asian Spirit is negotiating with BAE SYSTEMS to acquire four BAe 146s. The aircraft would likely include two series 100s and two series 200s being returned off-lease by Australia's National Jet Systems. Although negotiations have not yet concluded, one of the aircraft concerned was noted at Adelaide in early January already painted in full Asian Spirit colors. Asian Spirit already operates BAE SYSTEMS aircraft, in the form of two ATPs. The airline operates scheduled services throughout the Philippines from Manila. It is owned and operated by a cooperative of its employees. [2005-01-15]

Capn Bloggs

2nd Feb 2005, 22:02

likely include two series 100s
Hopefully, this will include "the queen of the skies". Good riddance!

spagiola

3rd Feb 2005, 12:11

The two 146-100s going to Asian Spirit are VH-NJY E1005 and VH-NJZ E1009. NJZ has already been delivered.

Can you explain your 'queen of the skies' comment? I'm confused.

alidad

3rd Feb 2005, 12:51

Has the term "SH+TBOXES" mean antthing to you??

SeaEagle

4th Feb 2005, 01:13

Who would know why the delay in the announcement. Only a very few would actually know I guess.

Maybe:

- They’re sorting out the detail.

- They’re holding the announcement to cover something less palatable.

- Maybe Embraer have come in with an offer that needs considering. The 717’s have been discontinued. Runway requirements?

But it’s fun to speculate. :O

Wirraway

8th Feb 2005, 16:35

Wed "The Australian"

Jobs on the line in airline decision
Steve Creedy
February 09, 2005

SEVERAL hundred jobs at Adelaide-based National Jet Systems are hanging on a imminent decision on who will operate and maintain a fleet of Boeing 717s for Qantas regional unit Qantaslink.

The decision, which could be announced as early as this week, will resolve a hard-fought battle for the work between NJS and Qantas low-cost subsidiary Jetstar.

Qantaslink announced in October that from July it would begin replacing eight 65-75 seat BAe 146s operated by NJS with a similar number of 115-seat 717s.

Qantaslink plans to use the planes in Western Australia, the Northern Territory and Queensland. It will retain two BAe 146s whose leases do not expire until the end of 2006.

Jetstar currently flies the 717s in a 125-seat configuration, but is progressively replacing them with bigger Airbus A320s. It has lodged a bid to keep maintaining and operating the planes for Qantaslink and says a decision in its favour could accelerate its expansion to Western Australia.

Jetstar staff have flown and maintained the 717s since they arrived in Australia under the Impulse Airlines banner and the airline has a heavy maintenance base at Newcastle, NSW.

But incumbent NJS is also competing for the contract to replace the work it currently performs with the BAe 146s.

As well as its work for Qantas, NJS provides freight services to Australian Air Express and flies for an array of resource companies in Western Australia.

It has had a long-term relationship with Qantas and is an experienced operator of outsourced services.

Last night neither side knew who had won the competition, but both have previously expressed confidence that they would prevail.

==========================================

Cart_tart

8th Feb 2005, 23:24

The decision, which could be announced as early as this week,

HA HA

I hardly think the decision is as early as this week given that it was supposed to be made before xmas!

What a joke! :rolleyes:

Weed

9th Feb 2005, 02:14

Latest NJS newsletter says probably today or tomorrow for a result.

cunninglinguist

9th Feb 2005, 05:08

Don't worry Geoffery, take your time, hundreds of people and their families lives are hanging on your and your chronies decision, but don't let that disturb you, it obviously has'nt so far :mad: :ouch: :yuk:

longjohn

9th Feb 2005, 05:24

I hate to be callous, but as for as NJS is concerned they are providing a low cost contract operation to Qantas.

Unfortunately, when you live by the sword, you risk dieing by the sword.

IF Jetstar get the work, with any luck they will employ most of the Airlink guys anyway.

Then you get to work for Trev.....:uhoh: :{ :hmm:

Capn Bloggs

9th Feb 2005, 07:03

Spotted! Stonecipherites at the Sperm Bank!

Capn Bloggs

9th Feb 2005, 07:19

LongJohn,
You're drawing a long bow making statements like that. NJS has not taken over ANY QF routes, nor are they likely to. The B717 is simply a replacement aircraft, nothing else.

CAPT146

10th Feb 2005, 05:46

What a surprise another dead line passes with no word.
Oh well maybe next month!

scramjet77

10th Feb 2005, 07:25

The litany of broken deadlines that we are witnessing are indeed a lasting testament to the fact that all of the parties involved in this protracted affair care nothing at all for the hundreds of employees who work hard for them on a daily basis.

An arrogant disregard for the lives and fortunes of the employees and the wives/husbands and children who are directly affected by these “boardroom bandits” and their crass policies of ‘slash and burn” in lieu of positive and creative leadership, appears to be the benchmark by which modern day “good corporate governance” is measured.

When compared with the likes of Westfarmers “Michael Chainey”, a fine example of what can be achieved with a large corporation, Geoff Dixon, Margaret Jackson et al, are merely self-interested corporate bullies with an eye only to the immediate requirements of the day and with no eye to the future.

It may not happen today, but the worm will turn.

cunninglinguist

10th Feb 2005, 07:44

I'll bet those 146s are going extra fast at the moment, purely so the NJS guys and gals can get back to their bases and find out the news ;)

geoffrey thomas

10th Feb 2005, 07:46

That's a bit tough Sramjet77. I think that we would want Qantas to have a good hard look at this decision as it is a long term one. When it is announced then you can plan for years to come and relax.
My understanding from sources at Newcastle, where the 717s and now A320s are maintained is that there will be an annoucement (s) Friday. Rumor has it that Newcastle will get the A320s long term rather than Melbourne.
GT

Capt Claret

10th Feb 2005, 12:40

What deadlines have come and gone?

I've not seen anything from QF announcing a decision will be delivered by a given date. Nor have I heard NJS say that they will know by a given date.

There's been a fair bit of "we hope to know this week", or, next week .... but the deadlines are in the minds of us waiting for the answer.

And whilst an answer two months ago would have been good, Geoff Dixon's responsibility is to the QF shareholders not to the staff of NJS.

oil additive

10th Feb 2005, 23:10

CAPT CLARET, so what you're saying is that Geoff Dixon should only worry about profit to the shareholders and disregard safety, performance, efficiency and the people who keep this industries wheels turning. Bravo Sir, you could earn yourself a place in the boardroom with all the other "bean counters" that we despise so much!! :mad:

Capt Claret

10th Feb 2005, 23:20

oil additive

Gee you draw a long bow.

Should Geoff Dixon disregard safety, performance, efficiency and the people who keep this industries wheels turning

then he would be disregarding his responsibility to his shareholders. :rolleyes:

Not a bean counter, can't see that I'll ever be a regular in a board room (tea & Bickies not withstanding :p ) and have no desire to be. What I'm saying, is as much as I want to know what the decision is, my desire is not high on Dixon's agenda, nor should it be. I don't presume the delay in a decision is just to piss a whole lot of people off, nor do I presume to know the reason behind the delay. It just is, and therefore there's no point in getting one's knickers in a twist about it. He'll make the decision when it suits him/QF.

oil additive

10th Feb 2005, 23:39

It appears we are both walking along the same path my friend and I may have been all too quick in venting my frustration in your direction:O PLEASE, PLEASE LET THE DECISION BE MADE TODAY!!

RENURPP

11th Feb 2005, 00:22

apparantly it has.

Capn Bloggs

11th Feb 2005, 00:23

Rapunzel we luv ya!

I'm going Boeing!

Capt Claret

11th Feb 2005, 00:26

Now, about all those "Jetstar managers who said we've got it! :p

justanoldboy

11th Feb 2005, 00:28

11th Feb 12:05 esst. Qantas has announced that NJS has been named the preferred bidder fort he QantasLink B717.

F/O Bloggs

11th Feb 2005, 00:47

Sorry Capn, You are far too old to undertake flying a modern jet, you will just have to stay on the swinebat and leave the new stuff to us younger bograts.

"Follow me through bloggs"
;)

Capt Claret

11th Feb 2005, 00:49

Click Here (http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20050211/pdf/3pppkjvmsgmfy.pdf) for a QF Media Release to the ASX. :ok:

Wirraway

11th Feb 2005, 00:50

Qantas

NJS Named Preferred Bidder for QantasLink B717s
Latest News
SYDNEY, 11 February 2005

Qantas said today that Adelaide-based National Jet Systems had been selected as the preferred bidder to operate and maintain QantasLink's new Boeing 717 regional flying operations.

The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Geoff Dixon, said QantasLink announced in October last year that it would progressively replace its fleet of BAe146 aircraft with newer Boeing 717 aircraft from July 2005.

The Boeing 717 aircraft will move from Jetstar to QantasLink as Jetstar continues to grow its fleet of new Airbus A320s.

Mr Dixon said the bidding process had been very competitive, with proposals submitted by National Jet Systems, which currently operates QantasLink's BAe146 fleet, and Jetstar, which currently operates the Boeing 717 fleet.

"In the end the strength of the relationship and the fact that a decision against National Jet Systems could have resulted in significant job losses in several States were the deciding factors," Mr Dixon said.

"National Jet Systems is a highly respected provider of aviation services to Australian corporate and government organisations.

"They have provided aircraft, pilots and cabin crew to the Qantas Group for fourteen years and we look forward to continuing this excellent partnership."

Mr Dixon said confirmation of the selection of National Jet Systems was subject to satisfactory negotiation of the operating agreement.

"The Boeing 717s will allow QantasLink to increase capacity on a range of routes in Western Australia, the Northern Territory and Queensland," Mr Dixon said.

Eight Boeing 717s, operating in a 115 seat configuration with a 32 inch seat pitch, will gradually replace eight 65 to 76 seat BAe146s in the QantasLink fleet over the 12 months beginning July 2005.

QantasLink will continue to fly its remaining two BAe146 aircraft, which are leased until December 2006.

The routes on which the Boeing 717s will operate include:

Perth-Broome
Perth-Kalgoorlie
Perth-Karratha
Perth-Paraburdoo
Perth-Port Hedland
Perth-Newman
Paraburdoo-Newman
Alice Springs-Ayers Rock
Alice Springs-Broome
Alice Springs-Cairns
Alice Springs-Darwin
Alice Springs-Perth
Ayers Rock-Cairns
Ayers Rock-Perth
Cairns-Gove-Darwin

Issued by Qantas Corporate Communication (3211)
Email: [email protected]

==========================================

Icarus2001

11th Feb 2005, 00:53

In the end the strength of the relationship and the fact that a decision against National Jet Systems could have resulted in significant job losses in several States were the deciding factors," Mr Dixon said. GOD is becoming all warm and fuzzy?:confused:

boocs

11th Feb 2005, 01:39

Congrats to NJS and their employees. The 717 will be a welcome change I am sure, especially the extra lbs/thrust!!!

Big Jan

11th Feb 2005, 01:41

Just as I thought.You NJS guy's are in for a treat.It's a great aircraft to fly and I will miss it.Oh and for those few of you that crapped on how it couldn't handle operating in WA conditions it looks like you will have to eat your words.At least you will get to find out first hand how good this aircraft is.
:ok:

downwind

11th Feb 2005, 02:49

from http://www.qantas.com.au/regions/dyn/au/publicaffairs/details?ArticleID=2005/feb05/3211

NJS Named Preferred Bidder for QantasLink B717s Latest News
SYDNEY, 11 February 2005
Qantas said today that Adelaide-based National Jet Systems had been selected as the preferred bidder to operate and maintain QantasLink's new Boeing 717 regional flying operations.

The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Geoff Dixon, said QantasLink announced in October last year that it would progressively replace its fleet of BAe146 aircraft with newer Boeing 717 aircraft from July 2005.

The Boeing 717 aircraft will move from Jetstar to QantasLink as Jetstar continues to grow its fleet of new Airbus A320s.

Mr Dixon said the bidding process had been very competitive, with proposals submitted by National Jet Systems, which currently operates QantasLink's BAe146 fleet, and Jetstar, which currently operates the Boeing 717 fleet.

"In the end the strength of the relationship and the fact that a decision against National Jet Systems could have resulted in significant job losses in several States were the deciding factors," Mr Dixon said.

"National Jet Systems is a highly respected provider of aviation services to Australian corporate and government organisations.

"They have provided aircraft, pilots and cabin crew to the Qantas Group for fourteen years and we look forward to continuing this excellent partnership."

Mr Dixon said confirmation of the selection of National Jet Systems was subject to satisfactory negotiation of the operating agreement.

"The Boeing 717s will allow QantasLink to increase capacity on a range of routes in Western Australia, the Northern Territory and Queensland," Mr Dixon said.

Eight Boeing 717s, operating in a 115 seat configuration with a 32 inch seat pitch, will gradually replace eight 65 to 76 seat BAe146s in the QantasLink fleet over the 12 months beginning July 2005.

QantasLink will continue to fly its remaining two BAe146 aircraft, which are leased until December 2006.

The routes on which the Boeing 717s will operate include:

Perth-Broome
Perth-Kalgoorlie
Perth-Karratha
Perth-Paraburdoo
Perth-Port Hedland
Perth-Newman
Paraburdoo-Newman
Alice Springs-Ayers Rock
Alice Springs-Broome
Alice Springs-Cairns
Alice Springs-Darwin
Alice Springs-Perth
Ayers Rock-Cairns
Ayers Rock-Perth
Cairns-Gove-Darwin

Issued by Qantas Corporate Communication (3211)
Email: [email protected]

well done to the NJS people!!! you deserve it.
:D

Woomera

11th Feb 2005, 02:57

Good call QF, well done NJS and good luck with the "satisfactory negotiation of the operating agreement.":ok:

How's it Hanging

11th Feb 2005, 04:57

I have heard that the final decision may not have so much been swayed by possible job losses, but the fact that Jetstar are already having trouble recruiting enough for their own ops and management did not want to risk making it worse.
Not sure how true!?

Going Boeing

11th Feb 2005, 05:02

It's good to see that Dixon did look at the "human" side to this contract as well as the numbers. It will certainly give some stability to the NJS staff. Well done guys.

Hugh Jarse

11th Feb 2005, 05:04

"In the end the strength of the relationship and the fact that a decision against National Jet Systems could have resulted in significant job losses in several States were the deciding factors," Mr Dixon said.

Since when has Dixon, or anyone else on the QF board given a rats arse about job losses, bearing in mind his intent to outsource jobs O/S? What's the difference?

Fuggin hypocrite:mad:

Good luck to the staff of NJS:ok:

DEFCON4

11th Feb 2005, 05:54

So the longhaul F/A mentioned in an earlier post was correct!.Where DO they get their information?

QFinsider

11th Feb 2005, 06:01

Hugh you got it in one...Hypocrite he is.
Just watch the warm and fuzzy variant as the "disengagement " survey numbers become known...I wonder what the recurrent theme is???:p

Funnily enough dont let the Dame and son of kerry and the rest of the goons escape the wrath..They are the board GD an instrument, but I'm led to believe the staff engagement survey result are scathing of management. Geez southcorp wines did real well under the sturdy directorship of the Dame didn't it:E

Wirraway

11th Feb 2005, 14:49

Sat "Weekend Australian"

Qantaslink deal saves 400 jobs
By Steve Creedy
12feb05

UP to 400 jobs at Adelaide's National Jet Systems are safe after Australia's biggest aviation services contractor beat Jetstar for a contract to operate and maintain a fleet of eight Boeing 717s for Qantaslink.

NJS management and staff were celebrating yesterday after the company was named the preferred bidder to operate the 115-seat passenger jets on Qantaslink regional routes in Western Australia, the Northern Territory and northern Queensland currently serviced by smaller BAe 146 aircraft.

It is understood that pilots at NJS offered pay, productivity and training concessions to help win the contract.

"It really is a very wonderful day," said NJS managing director Daniela Marsilli, who confirmed that losing the contract would have caused job losses in four states.

"It was always going to be a huge loss for National Jet, but I think with this decision it's a win-win."

The Boeing 717s will be transferred to NJS from Jetstar from July as they are replaced by the bigger A320s. NJS will continue to fly two BAe146s for Qantaslink and will continue to use the aircraft to service its resources sector and freight contracts.

A decision in favour of Jetstar would have savagely curtailed a 14-year relationship between Qantas and NJS, which operates the BAe146s scheduled to be replaced by the 717s.

Qantas chief Geoff Dixon acknowledged yesterday that this was a factor in the Qantas decision, which he said was still subject to an operating agreement being negotiated.

The announcement coincided with confirmation yesterday that the future of Jetstar maintenance operations in Newcastle, where the 717s are serviced, was also assured.

Jetstar chief executive Alan Joyce announced that the airline would spend $29 million on an expanded heavy maintenance base at Newcastle Airport. Backed by a NSW government support package, Newcastle won against bids from New Zealand, Singapore and Australia.

Mr Joyce said the win would mean about an extra 50 skilled jobs at the base, and more if the airline went beyond its target of 23 aircraft.

==========================================

Jet Jockey

11th Feb 2005, 20:42

God has come up trumps again. NJS was always going to get the gig. But why not mention the tender process again and put the thought of job lossess on the table to get new contracts at reduced rates. Saw it happen between Impulse and a supposedly Greenfields operation when J* was touted. The next one will be expanded international ops. Guess what's up for tender between J* and Australian. Australian will get the gig but not before they have to shave some more from the pointy end to compete for the job they are currently doing now. The sooner god gives up the ghost the better for the anybody working in aviation in Australia.
My 2 bobbs worth.

PureRisk

11th Feb 2005, 20:52

So let me get this right.....NJS pilots have officallly become the FIRST pilots IN THE WORLD of any airline to accept (and vote for!) the fact they have to pay for an upgrade to another A/C type even though they are already employed!!!!!! (As far as I know they are no others) What an absoulte disgrace you all are!!!!People like you are what continually bring the industry in Australia to its knees. I hope it bites you all in the A!s, in two years when the contracts are renewed. You may have won the contract because of it but in the end your short sightedness has done nothing except weaken your position and that of every other airline professional in this country and perhaps the world when it comes to next negotiating. Believed the managements bluff hey? !!!!!! What a sad sad day in aviation.

Normasars

11th Feb 2005, 22:28

PureRisk, I couldn't agree with you more. See my post on B717 endorsement. Just another gutless display on behalf of PROFESSIONAL pilots in this country. What a disgrace!!!!!!

The Enema Bandit

11th Feb 2005, 23:44

And what other conditions did those tossers give? Come on you tossers, tell us how much of a pay cut you negotiated?

F/O Bloggs

11th Feb 2005, 23:50

No Purerisk- The sad day in aviation was when airlines such as Virgin and Jetstar required employees to pay for the their endorsements up front to secure a job. :*

QF Quoll

11th Feb 2005, 23:56

Tossers, losers, call us whatever you like. In case you hadn't noticed we don't have another half dozen companies to choose from, and it's important to some of us to stay employed, on jets, in Australia (and save a thousand jobs). Nobody wanted this, but it looked like we weren't going to get the contract. 1% less in my pay packet doesn't compare with not having a job next year.

Capt Basil Brush

12th Feb 2005, 00:15

You guys are spot on!

The alternative would have been much better. Let J* get the contract, then either go on the dole (wife & kids in school very impressed), or possibly get a start with J* (if you get through all the hoops) pay for the rating, and start at the bottom of the list again, on much less money. Most of the older pilot's would give it away before going down this road.

Now I dont work for either company, but I can imagine the position the pilots (probably not only the pilots) have been placed in by THE COMPANY and QANTAS. Definately a big gun against their heads.

It's very easy to look down at a group already on a less attractive conditions than you are, and say "Tossers" etc etc,
but to be put in the same position would be distressing, and you would most likely do exactly as the NJS guys/girls have done. (if your honest enough with yourself)

I know what sort of response this opinion will bring, it's the nature of this Forum - and a handfull of regulars.

My two bobs worth.

scramjet77

12th Feb 2005, 00:29

Oh wow, Purerisk and Normasar, what manly, macho, hairy chested and tough hombres you both are.

We haven't seen such "big swinging d**cked" manly types with huge hairy cohonas as you guys since 1989. Alas, all of those he-man types have for some reason not been seen since.

Really, does it take a lot of practice to get your head so far up your fundamental, or is it just a genetic gift that you guys were lucky enough to be born with?

Capt Claret

12th Feb 2005, 01:23

Purerisk and Normasar

Please do let us know when you need our support in the future when you're caught between a rock and a hard place, re pay and conditions.

Speaking only for myself the conditions accepted, whilst unpalatable were easy to accept for the following reasons:

The other option was probably a choice between downgrade to F/O and move across the country at considerable financial cost, not to mention the disruption to my wife's career; or retrenchment.
The sure knowledge that no one in the industry would offer any solidarity and that had the pilot group said no, either, the work would have gone elsewhere, or some one who was prepared to pay would have moved in and filled the position, probably before my pigeon hole was empty.

I refute your suggestions that I am puting pressure on your wages and conditions. If you're not getting what you're prepared to accept, quit or go on strike to get more! Simple, isn't it?

The Voice

12th Feb 2005, 01:50

Clarrie an eloquent post as usual.

Is it possible for someone to post the conditions that go along with the new type for NJS? At least then the facts could be discussed rather than idle gossip being perpetuated, culminating in blood letting!

Surely, if it is 'just' 1% less [of the gross pay per annum - my assumption = approx $90/month loss as distinct from $110k/year loss] it is sound and reasonable logic if it means maintaining employment and lets think outside of our own grid square here for a minute, it wouldn't have just been pilots down at the local soup kitchen - there would have been flow on unemployment in a myriad of other areas as well.

When it is said and done, what makes aviation different from any other industry in this country when it comes to viability? How many times have you heard where employees have done the right thing to ensure that their employer can maintain a presence within that sphere, thereby keeping their job even if it is with a reduced pay?

Good on you NJS staff for showing the strength of character to support your management to capture this deal.

I'll bet there was a lot of sleep lost by all concerned whilst this was going on ...

Capt Claret

12th Feb 2005, 03:22

G'day Voice,

Me thinks that the actual conditions agreed to would be considered at this stage to be commercial in confidence. I don't think "Rapunzel" or GoD would take too kindly to disemmination before it becomes public information (published AWA or similar).

Your assessment is quite insightful. ;)

Normasars

12th Feb 2005, 03:23

Scumjet77 people of your ilk are the sought that lower conditions for everyone. You don't know my background so don't sit there and tell me how to suck eggs you plonker!!!!!!!!!!
Let me guess you were one of those PROFESSIONALS who would fly the charter for FREE just to get your hours up.
All I am saying is that until we all stand up and say enough is enough, then we will continue to get screwed by everyone you narrow minded little fool.

Capt Claret

12th Feb 2005, 03:26

and the chance of people standing united Normasars, when you refer to them as "plonkers" and "narrow minded little fool" is probably less than zilch.

From your tone I wouldn't stand with you because my assessment is that you'd break and leave me carrying the can while you looked after yourself.

Sonny Hammond

12th Feb 2005, 03:37

The bar was set pretty low before the NJS boys and girls were forced to waddle under it.

It's a bit rich to criticise them for doing what everyone else before them has done...look after no1.

Just look at our industry.....:(

F/O Bloggs

12th Feb 2005, 04:46

Normasars, What is your professional background? Are you with Jetstar? or Virgin? Have you paid for an endorsement? Just where does your high seated pontification originate?

cunninglinguist

12th Feb 2005, 04:52

I would'nt worry about normal sores and pure cyst if I were you guys.

As Sonny said, the bar was lowered a long time ago ( 15 1/2 years from memory ).
they are probably either sc@bs or have 1000 hrs on flight sim '98.
You were backed into a corner by those :mad: and took the only path that anyone with half a brain would have taken.
Standing united is a pipe dream that became a nightmare back in '89.

Congrats to the guys and gals of NJS, now that you have the 717s, maybe its time to apply a little pressure yourselves :E

You will enjoy flying the diesel 9, almost as much as sores and cyst will enjoy flight sim 2004 when they can talk their dad into buying it.

Iakklat

12th Feb 2005, 05:39

Try and justify selling out all you want ladies but the facts are in Australian Aviation these days you have to sell your soul to management to have the" privlidge of being employed".
Bunch of spineless aviation tossers down in that "Great Southern Land".
It all started with that GA operator with jets.
No sympathy from where we stand. Enjoy the 717 endorsement, after all, you and your families paid for it:yuk: :yuk:
What a spiralling situation you and so many have created for yourselves.:mad:

Capn Bloggs

12th Feb 2005, 06:23

Iakklat,

No sympathy from where we stand.

Considering your fairly harsh criticism of what appears to have gone on at NJS re pay and conditions, perhaps you could enlighten the forum exactly where you do stand. It may help us better understand your attitude.
I assume that you have actually successfully executed the course of action that you are suggesting should have been taken by the NJS pilots? If so, how about some details?

QF Quoll

12th Feb 2005, 10:35

It's all very well for those overseas to look down on 'The Great Southern Land' and pass criticism, but times have changed. In this case the NJS Pilot Group co-operated with management to produce a deal to secure the contract. The pilots who transfer from the 146 to the 717 will receive bonuses further down the track to help compensate for the initial costs. To be called losers and tossers beggars belief considering that we've saved our own jobs. Get over it.

Keg

12th Feb 2005, 10:44

This drives me nuts. Once again we turn on each other, rip into our own and generally crap on each other when we've actually missed the bloody point entirely.

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned that QF had a gun to both sides heads. If this doesn't tell us something then what ever will. The ONLY way we'll ever get ahead in the Aussie part of this industry is if we STAND TOGETHER. We need ONE pilots association covering ALL the segments of the group. That we we stop trying knife each other in the sides and ensure that we can all have the job security we desire. It IS possible.

This constant dog eat dog, you guys suck; well what could we do crap has got to stop. We need to unite and put a common front towards the powers that be. When they stick a gun to two peoples heads, we roll over. What we need to do is to take the 'second person' out of play and so when anyone puts a .44 to one head, we reply with the five or six .22s from a united pilot group. Either way it's a stalemate! :mad:

Anyway, the real enemy is NOT each other but gee Geoff Dixon must just LOVE the way we eat our own and don't turn our attention to him! :* :mad: :mad:

Glad the NJS guys and gals have secure jobs. Want to protect your conditions in the future? Start making enquiries with AIPA now. It's in ALL of our long term interests.

flyingins

12th Feb 2005, 11:07

I am relieved the NJS crew were able to win the 717 contract and keep thier jobs.

I am saddenned that QF once more felt the need to force and then accept an offer which is to the general detriment of pilot wages across the board.

I am hopeful that if solidarity amongst pilots is only good in theory, then at least we can all try to find a way to serve ourselves in the future which doesn't at the same time disadvantage our colleagues.

I am absolutely DISGUSTED at the temerity shown by the short sighted, narrow-minded hot-heads on this forum who display the arrogance which itself demeans the profession more than any pay cut could.

Just remember two things;

1) Pilots fly the planes. As employees we cannot and do not dictate terms of employment. At best we can attempt to influence them, at worst we just have to accept them.

2) If you were in the same place you'd do the same thing.

I pity the future of Australian aviation not because of the hapless choice (a choice between a job and unemployment is an unlucky one) of a group of harassed airline pilots, but because of the abhorrent and reprehensible attitude, actions and words of people who harp on about "professionalism" in one sentence and slander colleagues in the next.

Good luck to the NJS crew.

Sonny Hammond

13th Feb 2005, 03:17

Read Keg's post. We need more of that thinking and less of the other type we are used to seeing ....

LetsGoRated

13th Feb 2005, 03:31

Keg is right on the money. Time to grow up girls!!
To the NJS people, you will love this airplane!! I for one will sorely miss the 717 when it’s my turn for the 320. Good luck people and l look forward to flying with you during the transition period. :ok:

scud_runner

13th Feb 2005, 08:11

Keg

I agree with you 100% However it is YOUR union that dropped the ball ALONG time ago. Why wasn't the impulse group accepted into the AIPA when they had the opportunity?? It is no good for QF mainline pilots to winge when YOUR union had the opportunity to fix the situation that you now lament.

If Impluse pilots had been in the AIPA then the slide would not have occured and aviation would be an industry worth staying in. What were you guys thinking at the time??!!! Blind freddie could see what was going on, but you guys alienated the Impulse pilot group and it came to bite you VERY VERY HARD. Even more so if QF start buying more Airbus.

Anyway airline flying is now racing toward GA. What's going to be next?? Paying for recurrency training?? Airlines only get away with what their unions allow them to. About time some of the pilot groups in this country pulled thier finger out and start standing up for the people they represent.

NJS did what they had to do and I would have done the same thing however it should have never gotten to that point.

A question for NJS guys, what would happen if you as a NJS employee said that you couldn't afford the 717 rating what would happen then?? Could they fire you for not paying for training given you are already employed?? I can't imagine ALL of the pilots have the $$ for this type of thing.

The Enema Bandit

13th Feb 2005, 08:50

Good question Scuddy. I still reckon you National Jerk lot are tossers. Do you really think Jetstar would employ you in the same company as their mainline pilots? Wouldn't it be a seperate company to keep things apart? And where do you think Jetstar would have gotten enough experienced jet drivers from? You lot of course! Ya boofheads. Let's also not forget one thing. Employment is no longer guaranteed these days anywhere. (Just ask the Ansett dudes).

Keg

13th Feb 2005, 09:45

Yes, yes, yes. We stuffed it scud. It was a mistake and I curse myself on a weekly or fortnightly basis for not bleating more about it at the time. I actually put forward that very proposition to the then AIPA pres to be told 'no, we don't want to do that'. I wasn't convinced then and I'm damned sure now I was right.

That said, I can lament that forever or take pro-active steps NOW to ensure that we ALL are more secure. The only means of doing that is ensuring that we remove the 'other' player from the table and there is ONE pilots association to deal with. It may represent five different awards and so on but it does require some unity and desire to get the best for ALL of us.

Mistakes have been made. I hope we don't make them of the same size again. We can learn and move on and try and ensure it doesn't occur again or we can keep saying 'woe is me' as we race to the bottom. I know which one I'm doing! :mad:

Capt Claret

13th Feb 2005, 10:06

Yes Enema, we could have applied to Jetstar, then

Paid to go to an interview $1k return.
Paid to do the sim $0.5K
Paid for medical $0.15K
Paid for phsyc testing $0.2K

just in the hope of gaining a job on the bottom of their list, just to keep you happy.

OR we could have meaningful negotiations with our employer to put the best offer in to secure our positions.

What I've done has cost me far less than your suggested path, which I note costs you nothing.

I agree wholeheartedly with Keg, unity is what's needed. But judging by the posts like yours, where all that is offered is derogatory name calling, unity is a long, long, long way off into the future!

bonvol

13th Feb 2005, 10:34

We talk about unity. We had it once. The AFAP covered all airline pilots in Australia as well as GA. In their wisdom the Qantas pilots bailed out thinking they could do better on their own.

Now we are where we are. Pilots in this country have shown time and time again they are incapable of unity. Look at 89 for the amount of unity shown there...and that was supposed to be pretty good as far as disputes go. To beat this we will need just about 100% unity. Never going to happen imo. Management have capitalised on this and will continue to do so.

As for the NJS guys I say good on you. No one would have given a tinkers cuss if you had all got the boot. You had no choice really.

If Jetstar had got the nod not all of you would have got a job there anyway , you can bank on that. This way at least everyone gets to eat a bit longer till the next attack from our management mates.

I've harped on in plenty of old threads about AIPA's gross negligence rejecting the IPG. They just didn't want to associate with lowly Impulse pilots. Nothing in it for AIPA!

While I think of it what happened to the "line in the sand" AIPA touted at the Brighton RSL before the LCC was set up. Must have been drawn in lemon juice.

bonvol

13th Feb 2005, 23:49

Oh dear, on that other site, an 89 returnee, for want of a more descriptive adjective has recently made the astounding comment that "divided we beg".

Well..... this is good news, a born again union man preaching the benefits of unity, one for all and all for one, uphold the cause and all that.

Oh, the irony of it all.

scramjet77

14th Feb 2005, 00:02

Normasar to quote you "You don't know my background so don't sit there and tell me how to suck eggs you plonker!!!!!!!!!!"

Tell me, what do you know of me or any other person who works at NJS? You are the first to beat your chest on pprune espousing a line of thought borne of ignorance and dumb arrogance, and yet you howl like a mongrel dog when taken to task over your post.

The NJS pilot group negotiated a position resulting in a $0 nett loss at the end of a finite period of time. In the mean time, our wives/husbands and children have a secure future. Do you have a family to think about when you are "barking like a junk yard dog"? If you do how far are you prepared to risk their future?

If you would like to set an example for us all to follow, please be kind enough to tell us what struggle you have experienced, what negotiations you have been a part of, or what strike action you have endured in order to secure your current pay and conditions. Or have you just happened to have the luxury of being able to walk into an employment position with the current pay and conditions already in place, and then screech at us in a shrill and trite voice as if you were a baboon in a tree?

1989, ring any bells? Rightly or wrongly this dispute deteriorated into ruined lives and misery for thousands, (and no, I was working overseas), less belligerence from the likes of you and more negotiating may well have resulted in a completely different set of outcomes, who knows, but I for one was not prepared to take that risk.

Actually, I had a laugh when reading your post. Have you ever seen Michael Moores "Fahrenheit 9/11". You remind me of all those American senators interviewed by Moore, who were all rabid supporters of the Iraq war but never had the guts to enlist in previous conflicts or to send their own sons and daughters to Iraq. Criticism from you and your type I wear loudly and proudly as a badge of honour!!

Please don't forget to let us know what your contribution to the Australian pilot workforce pay and conditions has been.

A final thought, have you ever heard the cliche that "EMPTY VESSELS MAKE THE MOST NOISE"?

rescue 1

14th Feb 2005, 02:32

The question no one has asked in this thread is: Why did QF main not put in a price to operate the B717?

QF Quoll

14th Feb 2005, 02:47

resue 1, mainline are far to expensive for a low cost operation.
NJS fits the guidlines very well especially with cooperative staff.

Normasars

14th Feb 2005, 05:22

F/O Bloggs for your info mate I am with the White Rat if that has got anything to do with it. Everyone here didn't get my point EXCEPT Keg. Did I not say that its about time everyone stood together with a collective voice and said enough's enough. I could have sworn that is what I said previously obviously I write in chinese and nobody here can read that !!!!!!!!!!
Clarrie I know you and I wouldn't have expected such a reply as I suspect you know me having previously worked with you at NJS. As for all you other knockers PLEASE enlighten us all as to your extensive experience or LACK thereof. And by the way I was not involved in 89

Capt Claret

14th Feb 2005, 11:13

Normasars

You say you know me and I know you. I don't however know who Normasars is. It makes no difference. I believe that when one resorts to calling people names, like "plonker" and "silly little fool", one is really showing that one's argument holds little water.

You may well believe that we at NJS have made a bad decision, and that is your right. Why not argue the point, rather than denigrate those who have had to make the real world decision, unlike you who haven't?

If you were still flying with me @ NJS, with (I assume) a family to support (pehaps a wife unhappy with constant insecurity in aviation), and were faced with the prospect of retrenchment or downgrade, and potentially severe financial impost, can you really say that you'd stand on the principal you espouse, in the sure knowledge that most wouldn't stand with you and many would be clambering for your position beore you'd even left it?

scramjet77

14th Feb 2005, 14:03

Normasars, again I shall quote you,

1. "PureRisk, I couldn't agree with you more. See my post on B717 endorsement. Just another gutless display on behalf of PROFESSIONAL pilots in this country. What a disgrace!!!!!!"

and then;

2. "Did I not say that its about time everyone stood together with a collective voice and said enough's enough. I could have sworn that is what I said previously obviously I write in chinese and nobody here can read that !!!!!!!!!!"

and now I ask you once again;

If you would like to set an example for us all to follow, please be kind enough to tell us (a) what struggle to secure your current pay and conditions you have experienced, (b) what negotiations you have been a part of, or (c) what strike action you have endured in order to secure your current pay and conditions, and (d) do you have a family whose happiness and security you are prepared to risk by "going to war" with your employer

As you refuse to answer these questions and we now know that you work for Q, it is obvious that you have had the luxury of being able to walk into an employment position with the current pay and conditions already in place, with no input, risk or negotiation from yourself. All of the work was done prior to your arrival. You then screech at us in a shrill and trite voice as if you were a baboon in a tree?

What you have succeeded in doing is proving yourself to be a person who lacks candor and credibility. A person who takes a position of critisism and ridicule of others while having not an ounce of substance himself. How easy it is to "hide out in the tree tops and shout out rude names" * at the passers by.

Yes mate, a very "empty vessel" you are.

* (apologies to Peter Gabriel)

Sunfish

14th Feb 2005, 18:34

Gentlemen. Could I make one comment please?

It is all very well to criticise someone for apparently putting the skids under your wages and conditions, but what would you do if it was YOUR job on the line?

Would you and your mates stand shoulder to shoulder and call the employers bluff? Would you be confident that the rest of the pilots in this country would support you and your family if you were sacked? Would you be confident that every other professional airline pilot in the entire country would go out and stay out, shutting down QF VB J*, and everything else, until you were reinstated?

I respectfully suggest that unless the answer is a resounding "Yes" you have no right to criticise NJS people.

Normasars

14th Feb 2005, 23:29

Scramjet, once again you jump to conclusions mate. I said I work for the rat, read into that what you like but I can assure you , you are barking up the wrong tree. The reason I say this is that you obviously have an affiliation with primates as everyone of your posts refers to baboons hiding out in trees. FYI I have been shafted well and truly by Q along with hundreds of other former employees in a once very proud and profitable regional airline that as of 2002 is now just a very sad memory.So please once again do me a favour and keep your 10 cents worth of abuse to yourself. I know all too well what its like to be screwed over. Try telling your family( with a wife at work and kids in school) that in 2 weeks time the operation is shifting to CB and then within 12 months of that announcement the whole thing is no more.
Unlike you mate I can well and truly speak from experience, nuff said!!!!!!!!

scramjet77

14th Feb 2005, 23:52

Normasars, If you have been a victim of base closures and short notice redundancies, why do you then refer to the actions of those of us still at NJS as;

"Just another gutless display on behalf of PROFESSIONAL pilots in this country. What a disgrace!!!!!!"

I would have thought that under your particular circumstances you would understand the need for people to try to cement a secure future, even if that does require some compromise.

If you are angry and "pissed off" with the way things have become in aviation thats fine, but don't hurl abuse at those of us who are trying to secure some kind of long term future in our home towns.

I am truely sorry that you have been made redundent and I hope for your sake that you have found suitable long term employment elsewhere, however lets us get along with trying to ensure our own futures without retribution.

P.S Normasars, Yes, some would say that I do have an affiliation with primates. Wadya reckon Bloggs?

Capt Basil Brush

15th Feb 2005, 00:03

Normasars,

You seem pretty harsh on NJS, correct me if I am wrong (I wasnt there) but didn't NJS give you guys/girls a bit of a lifeline from the streets, by keeping you employed (on Jets) for an extra 12mths after QF ditched you all? And some pilots even longer? (some might even still be with NJS)

Normasars

15th Feb 2005, 00:22

Scramjet77, thanks for your compassion and no I am not out of work. You are completely missing my point. Do you honestly think that NJS was ever going to lose the B717 contract. The writing was on the wall the day VQ was announced as the LCC for Qantas. A LCC CANNOT operate different fleet units, it is diametrically opposed to the whole business model of LOW COST.
The regionals were never going to crew the 717 and the 146s were ear marked for replacement. You guys were always going to be the operators of the 717.
What pisses me off is that you guys/girls at NJS (and yes I did work there for 2 years) believed the company Spin Doctors and caved in to their demands. Q played both NJS and Jetstar off against each other, and they are masters of that, just watch and see the Q400 saga unfold between Eaa and SS as to pay and conditions there.
Once again the company called the bluff of the pilot group and this has to stop. I am sorry if I offended you in my earlier post but this kind of sh!t is what is destroying all of us and our cause. Longjohns thread is a good read and there are some fantastic ideas there for all of us as professionals to ponder on that.
PS goodluck to yourself and Clarrie over there

Capt Claret

15th Feb 2005, 01:43

Normasars

What you say in your immediately prevoius post, re NJS being a shoo in for the 717s may be correct. I suspect many think that way BUT no where near as many were prepared to take the gamble on the shoo without some sort of insurance.

Maybe we were wrong, perhaps we were right. Unless you have some serious inside information from QF's hallowed halls of power, you can't possibly know you're right, you can only surmise. I don't believe that any of us workers will ever know, I do however remember when NJS was a shoo in to get the airframes that became YAD, YAE & YAF. We only got them by default after QF merged the Eastern & Southern operations.

It doesn't pay to be too cocky and I have little doubt that despite all the signs that might have said the 717s would come to NJS, had QF not been happy with the deal they got, they would have quite happily sent them to Jetstar, just to prove their point.

Gnadenburg

15th Feb 2005, 09:41

Someone mentioned a "bonus" from management down the track.

Weren't VB pilots, after undercutting incumbant domestic pilots and paying for their training, promised a similar improvement of conditions down the track?

It wont eventuate guys! But a clever negotiating ploy to make those who have been had keep a little self esteem.

1 - Qantas International S/O's accept a 10% paycut to crew 737's. Free endorsement.

2- Virgin Blue pilots launch onto the scene for conservatively 30% less. Pay for endorsement.

3- Qantas pilots crew Australian Airlines 767's at 40% less than current Ansett pilots.

4- Impulse launch 717's less than VB. Impulse collapses, lucky guys keep their jobs under the QF umbrella but.....

5- Former Impulse, now Jetstar pilots, fly A320's for 10% less than VB pilots and considerably less than QF Domestic pilots.

6- QF pilots help launch Jetstar Asia for the going rate; at a time when regional payrises likely due gross shortage of Airbus pilots. Pay for endorsement.

7- National Jet pilots hoodwinked into flying for 15% less than Jetstar pilots. Pay for endorsement.

8- Low Cost Pilots in 2,3,4,5,6,7 despite undermining and denying their responsibility to aviation conditions of service in Australia, flock to well paid jobs abroad. Naively not realising if you can't negotitiate and protect conditions in Australia, how in the hell are you going to do it abroad without the protection of labor laws etc?

I was unemployed too for what it's worth- and 69K a year as a Low Cost Pilot and paying for my endorsement it was not!

alidad

15th Feb 2005, 10:10

Gnadenburg,
You must be one of the arrogant, self centred f##kwits that are to arrogant to acknowledge a regional pilot in your midst.
Symptoms include:

1. not acknowledging a G'day when one of the plebs walks by;

2. chastising/berrating your F/O for making social conversation with a regional pleb;

3. turning ones head away as you walk past a regional pleb as to avoid eye contact;

4. being openly rude to the above on company frequencies; or

5. a B747-400 skipper that refers to a 737 as a "maggot" as it taxies by?

Matey, we have a wonderful lifestyle with minimal overnights (this means REAL SEX with the missus; and not that pretend stuff in front of the mirror) It means we usually either drop the kids at school or are at home in time to pick them up in the afternoon. It means we either have brekky with the kids or dinner with the family in the evening.

Gnadenburg, if earning the big bucks makes you happy then good luck to you , but never forget that NOBODY gets something for no reason and be careful what you wish for.

best of luck with the body lotion at the Hilton.

Gnadenburg

15th Feb 2005, 10:33

After that outburst Alidad, I would suggest you have a few more problems in the bedroom than you care to admit.

In just 5 short years Alidad, you work for half of what I used too.

You are the lowest paid of Australia's Low Cost Pilots. But don't fear, precedent suggests somebody will undercut you very soon!

When the reality of your wage sets in, you will look to improve it the easy way, by seeking employment with the final bastions of good paying airline positions. Like VB & J* pilots before you, you will absolve yourself of any responsibility of the parlous state of pilot conditions you have created.

Enjoy flying 900 hours a year, on a truck drivers diet of cold sandwiches, coffee and coca cola.

alidad

15th Feb 2005, 12:15

Gnadenburg,
There you go again- money, money, money- enough said on that.

Are one of the unfortunates that use your job to define who you are? Do you happen to always find an excuse to duck into the shop in full uniform; parade for all to see what you do? oh the mistique of it all. Do you have a hatstand just inside the front door so that all visitors can marvel at your dress regalia, and you don't have to tell them what an important position you hold in society?
For some of us flying is a great job and is simply what we do
to earn a living- it is not who we are!

How is the lotion going?

QF Quoll

15th Feb 2005, 12:49

alidad stop rising to Gnadenburg's twoddle, ignor just move on I suspect a he's a little over .05 anyway.
The NJS team will get a reasoneable deal out of this in the long run, current managements on both sides of this deal will change in the next 2yrs for certain.
So in the meantime we have to make sure we get this transition current and continue to build our cred. with QF.

boocs

15th Feb 2005, 13:05

ali,

I feel you may be missing one of Gnad's valid points with regard to the Low Cost pilot. That being: after reaching their airline "dream" and flying shiny new aircraft for a period of time, the novelty sure as hell disappears very quickly when they realise that their income is not too flash at all. They then try for the well paid overseas position, but don't realise that they are making it difficult, perhaps impossible, for the overseas pilots to advance their cause in Terms and Conditions. This comes about from the overseas airline's argument "why should we give you a pay rise when we are getting pilots from countries (Oz) who have never seen money like this before and are more than satisfied with their current contract?"

The main point: Low cost pilots are not only hurting themselves by jumping over each other to get ahead, in the long run they may be hurting well established drivers overseas when they jump ship for a new airline!!

Capn Bloggs

15th Feb 2005, 13:29

ARRRGGGHHH!!! You LCCP-bashers are FULL OF IT. Since when has any LCCP (or any bloody pilot) had any right (or success for that matter) in demanding, from their new employer, much more money that what is being offered at the time of employment??
When has this been done in Australia?

I'll tell you the problem with the Oz aviation pay scene right now: it's the OBSCENE rates of pay that post 89 pilots were and are getting paid! If the Ansett fatcats had had a dose of reality and took their pay levels down to reality, then perhaps they wouldn't have gone broke and given an opportunist like Branson a chance step up to the plate with vastly reduced pay rates. Sama Sama Jetstar.

Are you really telling me that some GA jockey (or an NJS troop trying to KEEP his job) should knock back a jet job or a pay "adjustment" just because you aces don't want to see pressure on your salaries?? Get real, you selfish so and sos. Have YOU ever been into Geoff Dixon's office promoting the worth of the profession, supporting better pay for prospective workmates? I didn't think so.

This thread, which originally was about the battle between Jetstar and NJS for the 717s, has progressively made me sicker and sicker. With "mates" like you lot in the industry, who needs a boss to kick you in the guts?

Woomera, this is going nowhere. Click it please!

Miriam

15th Feb 2005, 13:31

Gnadenburg,

6- QF pilots help launch Jetstar Asia for the going rate; at a time when regional payrises likely due gross shortage of Airbus pilots. Pay for endorsement.

As far as I am aware Jetstar Asia does not endorse pilots with ratings. The airline pays for the traineee to go to france, to Airbus, and Airbus does the rating. The trainee is paid for all meals, accomodation, airfares for the training, and get an allowance, the meal allowance is nothing to write home about, but keeps you from starving.

Pilots are "bonded" to the airline for a fixed period, however the bond does not include handing over any cash or guarentee to the airline.

As far as pay, pilots are one the same or better than others in Singapore, having attracted pilots from Silkair, Valueair, Tiger.

:ugh:

RENURPP

15th Feb 2005, 13:58

I am an NJS pilot and feel some of you are missing the point.

I have been employed by NJS for 10 years and have no intention of moving on. I was quite happy flying the 146 and would continue to fly it happily for another 15yrs then retire.

I have never applied to QF, maybe a mistake in hindsight, not at all interested in the likes of Virgin or Jetstar.

As for moving overseas for $$$$ well if thats your thing then your welcome to it no competition from me.

I can safely say that a large percentage of NJS guys are here for lifestyle, e.g. alidad.

We were forced to make a decision.
The 717 are coming to replace the 146, no choice, we didn't ask for shiny new flash jets!! couldn't give a toss. They are coming.

Considering all the info available to us, and I mean real info not asumptions like Normasars has made, we could either comptete with Impulse/Jetstar pilots to maintain status quo or give in and hope like hell that QF really did want to maintain a business relationship with NJS for what ever reason.

I completely understand some of my colleagues displeasure with having to take a paycut or pay for an endorsement. God I don't want to go backwards, I believe I am worth every cent I get but consider the reality.

We are worse off initially by about $600.yr pre tax
Endorsement costs really equate to $0 after 2 yrs. not sure about an F/O
To take the chance and lose and move on to a mob like Jetstar costs what ever Capt Claret suggested earlier on, for the interview then if you get in ???
moving costs around $15k
Endorsement costs $ 35-40K
Back to an F/O's pay loss of about $50-60k all in one year. add that up and in the first year we are behind by about $100-120K before tax.

Thats before you have to move the kids from their friends, school, sell the house, and if other threads are accurate work for a company with morale well and truly down the drain.

We could expect absoluetely no support from any one outside our group. So solidarity = zip. Remember 1989.

So no thanks I will be a girl, sook tosser what ever you like but I am happy with my lot so get stuffed.