Question to any SO hired by CX in 2000

[Jollo]

Have read alot of negative tings about CX on pprune,A-B scales,bad rosters...
Would you recommend anyone to apply?
What is a typical roster for a 747,A-340 SO ?

[Kubota]

The S/O rosters (I believe) are OK. Up to 15 (or more) days off a month, between two and three ULH trips. Whether or not it's worthwhile applying is relative. I see that you list your occupation as "Captain". That may change the viability of a start at the bottom of CX's (somewhat unstable) seniority list.

If you're younger than your late twenties, and want a wide-body endorsement, it could be worth all the B-S that CX's "management" (now there's an oxymoron) WILL throw your way in the 2-3 years it will take to get into the right seat of a 777/330.

Bear in mind that you will have to stay a while once IN that seat to get enough hours to make you viable to a stable, honest company that has integrity (which, by the way, is the main reason there is so much discontent at CX). You should also know that we have had our contracts altered (without negotiation) three times since 1994, threatened with termination if we did not accept the terms (and CX's department of propaganda told the Hong Kong press that they were "negotiated"), the seniority system has been violated by the establishment of a freight division which hired (and later "integrated" direct-entry capt's and f/o's), and placed on punitive rosters that give minimum STATUTORY time off. I have not had a roster that has been flown as published for more than three and a half YEARS. Finally, there are pilots who have had their salaries cut by 30% at a TIME OF RECORD PROFITS.

If you are an American, or can get legal residence in the USA, don't bother with CX. You can and will do better even if you begin in a freight or commuter operation flying newspapers or bank documents in a beat-up heap of junk.

If you are female, and either in the USA or Canada, the affirmative action programs will guarantee you a meteoric ascent in the business. Again, don't waste your time here.

Finally, so much has been written on this subject over the past two or three years, a properly worded search in Pprune will give you a lot of answers to your questions.

PS I'm not an S/O


[This message has been edited by Kubota (edited 29 December 2000).]

[absolut KUK]

Thanks Kubota, a good and balanced post...

CX is not what it used to be, and the myths about CX are not true...

CX IS BAD

[Liam Gallagher]

Whilst I would not disagree with most of the facts stated in Kubota's post it is hardly balanced. He has forgotten to mentioned that the erosion of his renumeration package has been broadly in line with what is a worldwide trend for pilots, and indeed ex-pats of any trade.

It is true that the pay cuts to the A-Scale were "negotiated" at the wrong end of a gun, however it is equally true that what is undeniably a bitter pill, was lightly sugar coated with;

1. Approximately 170,000 share options at $7.47. Whilst they may presently be paper dollars, the profits represent what most CX employees would consider to be a good annual salary.

2. His retirement package, which is based on Final Salary ( no chancing it on the Stockmarket for ol'Kubota) was enhanced.

Other Cx employees just got the pay cut, no sugar coating of any description. Just to complete the balancing act, ol Kubota forgot to mention the company he holds in such low regard gives him;

1. A housing allowance comparable to an SO's annual salary, and
2. A 13 month of salary, and
3. Medical cover for him and the family, and
4. Loss of licence and death in service cover,and,
5. Education allowance for the kids.
6. Remember those PROFITS that he emphasised in CAPITALS that the bungling management by pure chance happened to make, well ol' Kubota gets a share of those. Fortunately, it's not shared equally amongst all CX employees. It's based on daily pay, and Kubo' has one of the highest daily rates of pay in CX- which is nice.

I have not included the travel fund in the list because I am not sure if kubo' still gets that. Perhaps he can add it later.

So Absolut KUK, I think now you have a balanced post; so when our friend is standing in line for his application form to get a job flying "some heap transporting newspapers and bank documents" he will not be surprised to learn that neither you or ol'kubo will be in the queue with him.

Standing by for abuse,
Liam G.

[The Resistance]

Liam, once again your reply shows a gross misunderstanding of the facts and a self-rightous attitude towards justifying your own ill-gained place in the industry. You state that there is a general 'lowering of conditions' for aircrew worldwide.....! I would suggest that the pilots of the following airlines would strongly disagree with you. United(43% raise), Delta(47% raise proposed), American(47-49% raise proposed), Continental(48-53%raise proposed), Korean(30% raise), Singapore(25%raise this month, more to come), BA(fixed annual INCREASES), AirCanada(23%raise,34% for Canadian pilots who where integrated),....etc, etc,...! Your statement displays a pathetic 'justification' as to why you would sell yourself and the industry short just to fly a 'widebody'....(how sick I am of hearing THAT excuse from people who are naieve at best, lacking character at worst). You go on to state that THE A SCALERS got 170000 share options....! My neighbour recieved one of the highest amounts on average, and he was 'awarded' 132000. Exaggeration is not a noble quality when discussing peoples careers and their implications. It is worth noting that the shares would need to hit approx. $45 hkd to even BEGIN to recoup the moneys we have had stolen from us by this corrupt and malignent management. As for retirement package.....well, CX managed to con most A-scalers into taking bases and leaving the provident fund (most without any sort of substantial payout), then, once on the base, cut the salary that was supposed to make up for the loss of provident fund. All the 'other' aspects of renumeration that you mention are 'standard' expat benefits, that the likes of you and your 'lowered' sense of value of what this job is worth is continuing to put at risk. It is worth noting that in nearly all cases of expat benefit, CX pays the lowest in HK in nearly every instance. It was only with the implementation of B-scale and ASL that this erosion took hold. I accept part responsibility for allowing the company to implement these destructive ideas, but can assure you that your attempt to 'justify' these conditions as being 'inevitable' and 'market driven' are just what the company wants to hear, and certainly fits in with my lifelong philosophy....'you get paid what you are worth'. In your case this proves to be valid. Please, just stay in your hole and do your job. Don't bother trying to 'show' the rest of us 'how this industry really is'....! I HAVE seen how it really IS, and you are only part of the problem of WHY it is. As mentioned at the beginning of the post, the pilots of all the airlines mentioned are a living indictment to your attitude and opinions.

[absolut KUK]

Thanks Resistance. Liam Gallagher isn't that the name of that useless OASIS guy who is banned from flying on CX, QF and a lot of other companies???
So Liam you are at ASL why didn't you sign over to mainline when you had the chance?

[This message has been edited by absolut KUK (edited 29 December 2000).]

[Liam Gallagher]

Absolut KUK,

You are correct regarding Liam Gallagher, but unlike him I am not banned by CX. I was, but not anymore, and direct you to my post of the 28th Dec on the ASl/HKAOA thread; which part of the phrase, "I am employed by Veta.." are you having trouble with?

Resistance:

I concede I know nothing about aviation and bow to your superior knowledge. When I left the RAF some years ago I must have mis-read the pay scales offered by BA/ Virgin/ Monarch / AirTours / Emirates /QF because I thought their package was inferior to the ASL package. All my mates that joined BA have been lying to me, they told me they were on C-Scales and for all these years they have been secretly receiving FIXED INCREASES. And the guys who tried to join BA, but ended up in Go or a franchise outfit like Cityflyer, must be the biggest liars of all. I suppose we all screwed up because we should have joined SQ, (read the Rumour and News thread recently?) or perhaps Korean. Perhaps we should join SIA (Mauritius)Ltd because they are always advertising in Flight, or maybe Atlas Aircrew Services Ltd. Mind you, our own stupid fault for burning our Green Cards.

Still, I wont need to work anymore because having just received your lesson in Economics, I have rung my stockbroker and told him to tell all the other stockholders in the Dot-bom companies wot I just bought not to sell until the shares are back to Mar 2000 level. If we all hold tight and not sell, we shall be fabulously wealthy by the end of next week. Which stupid old woman with a handbag said, "you can't buck the market".

Got to go and flog myself (again) for being the one that F**cked up aviation. I should have gone on the dole rather than join ASL, that would have taught CX, BA, Branson, Airtours/ Monarch / Britannia / Virgin/ Emirates...

[absolut KUK]

Liam, i honestly don't read all your posts, because they are so long and boring.Plus I am afraid to catch whatever it is that makes you so miserable and full of hate. I am happy that you signed over to CX, and am disappointed with the people who did not. It would have been nice to put that whole ASL storey behind and let time try to heal the damages but now it is going to be around for along time.

Liam would it not have been good if all ASL (who could, age 55) had signed over? then it would be one less group dividing us.

UNITED WE STAND

[Liam Gallagher]

Absolut KUK,

Sorry you find my posts long and boring. However, these issues are complicated and encompass many years of events. To do justice to the issue often requires a long post.

Be in no doubt, the overwhelming majority of guys who remained with ASL ,did so solely on age; not because the offer was derisory and most certainly not out of an anti-mainline feeling. Some Einstein figured those younger than 42 would benefit. Those approaching 50 would have kissed off 5 of their remaining 10 years of flying if they signed across.

I am disappointed that you find my posts full of misery and hate. I try to not personalise the debate, perhaps that why you find my posts boring. Whoops another long and boring post.

[absolut KUK]

Actually I read all of that one!
So if you are a Freighter FO who signed over to USAB/VETA you are being bypassed by ASL FOs who did not sign over? It is not a good feeling is it???

[10sne1]

LG; "these issues are complicated and encompass many years of events". Where were you in '93 and '94 when some of these 'events' were taking place? The cozy RAF I suspect. If you joined in the first batch of ASL guys you still couldn't have been around 'til early '96, maybe late '95. I would suggest you stop trying to be an authority on things you weren't even here to witness and know nothing about. You joined a company in the middle of a very big fight and you are but a small part of the picture. The problems you continue to comment on go back long before you even knew the address to the recruiting office.

Oh yeah, here here Resistance!

[This message has been edited by 10sne1 (edited 29 December 2000).]

[huntsman]

and as a brief interlude, let's re-visit the original questions!

[Kubota]

Good call, huntsman. LG, if you want to get on a soapbox, why don't we open another thread. All the man asked was whether it was recommended or not. You never fail to try and spout some sort of pathetic justification for a miserable, failed, Frankenstein of an operation that was ASL. See you at "Frankenstein's Monster"...