You are Tony B Liar.

[heights good]

Ok we all moan about Tony being a pillock, your him for a day, what would you change?

[16 blades]

The wife.

God awful woman.

16B

[Razor61]

Have a 'strategic party cut' and take Hoon out of service!

Razor

[SmilingKnifed]

I have to agree with 16 Blades.

Was it her looks or her personality?! (Or am I missing something?!)

[16 blades]

Both. On account of the fact she has neither.

16B

[Pilgrim101]

Admit to the lies ,spin and nepotism which has kept this bunch of incompetents in power and apologise profusely for the long term damage done to our schools, security, institutions and democracy.

Publish just what Mandelson has that keeps him on the gravy train and put Prescott through elocution classes, and possibly something like the old 11 plus. :rolleyes:

[Wingswinger]

Mandelson is Bliar's gay lover. Obvious innit?

[ACW599]

Borrow a service revolver, go behind the nearest hangar and do the decent thing.

[brakedwell]

My job and my deputy's job!

[crossbow]

Nice thread but from the replies you are close to the wind. surely remarks such as
Borrow a service revolver, go behind the nearest hangar and do the decent thing is suggesting we mureder the PM and overthrow the government -

are you suggesting a military coup? Fraid the 24,000,000 people who voted for His Tonyness wouldn't agree with you.

VOTE LABOUR

[chippy63]

24 million? I don't thinks so, or are you saying that the abstainers effectively voted for Labour? Just curious as to how you picked that number. Cheers.

[stiknruda]

As much as it pains to write this, I have this leaden feeling that IF there is an election in May then this "bunch of incompetents" will be returned.

I just don't see a cohesive and credible alternative that the great British public will wholeheartedly back.

So given the above, today as "trust-me-Tone", I'd carry on being a shameless sycophant of Dubya. I'd carry on supporting Two Jags and carying "tcH" and I wouldn't give a flying foxtrot about the morale and overstretch of HM Forces.

Oh and I'd probably have my spin-meisters release a new government initiative or two that make no positive difference to people's every day lives, save to increase the level of bureacracy and paperwork.

I certainly won't be visiting any of our brave lads injured whilst serving their country.

Sad, isn't it?

Stik

[TurbineTooHot]

Crossbow,

Are you Geoff Hoon?

[The Swinging Monkey]

CROSSBOW,

I am becoming seriously worried about you matey.
Having read your comments on other threads about Mr Bliar and his chronies, where you appear to defend his every decision, comment blah, it is patently obvious that you are NOT who you appear to be...........
So come on, just exactly who or what are you?
You appear to be from that great black hole called BWOS, and yet I cannot believe that from your comments about Bliar....

Are you his illegitimate love child with Mandleson?
Are you related to that lunatic Bafooooon??

Come on, stop pi$$ing about and come clean.

Whoever you are, as BEagle and others have said, you need assessment urgently, and need to get checked in to the nearest Nut House (and I don't mean BWOS!)

Rant over, switches back to safe
Kind rergards
TSM
'Caruthers quick, I need a Grouse Pronto Tonto!!'

[Pilgrim101]

Stik

Too true - I'm staying here in Kuwait/Iraq then. I get paid a f:mad: g sight more for it now, Brown can sing for his extortionate cut of it and the people out here actually turn out to vote. :E

Funny that, I think Blair will need some kind of Zarqawi figure in UK to make people actually bother to go to the polls.

As for Crossbow, yes, there probably are people in UK who have had such thoughts cross their minds. The sickening hypocrisy and indifference shown by Bliar and Buff towards serving personnel is just staggering, especially while making their grandstand comments about our boys and girls from their much degraded New Labour pulpit.

[crossbow]

BWOS - well if the RAF is BWOS then thats me. Nope Im a serving member of HM's finest. Im currently flying my A--e off at a small and quiet airfield in Lancashire.

And im a Fervent and enthusiastic labour supporter.

Remember the conservative governent -- The ones who gave you:[list=1]
The Poll Tax
3 Million people unemployed
15% interest rates
[/list=1]


Nope....sorry Mr Howard but you had your chance when you were Home secretary and you completely buggered that up by cutting Police force numbers and hacking the Police force budget.


Nope - Its his tonyness and Buff for me...

[Pilgrim101]

Wow, with that myopia I hope you're not a Pilot ?:E :ok:

[airborne_artist]

I can remember the Labour govt that gave us strikes, more strikes and then some strikes. Bins not emptied in C London for 8 weeks, postal strikes for 4 weeks, and a single phone company with an 8 month lead time for a party line. At the same time the Armed Forces Pay Review Board said we needed a 35% rise, which Labour (in the 79 election) were going to give us in two tranches.

Maggie won, and gave us the lot, at once. With a seniority pay rise (2nd yr Midshipman), fly trg pay and the 35% my pay went from £2,600 to £4,500.

Pilgrim - check yr PMs.

[Blakey875]

Crossbow

And the best Goddam pay rise in 30 years....

[JessTheDog]

Nice thread but from the replies you are close to the wind. surely remarks such as

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Borrow a service revolver, go behind the nearest hangar and do the decent thing
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

is suggesting we mureder the PM and overthrow the government -

are you suggesting a military coup? Fraid the 24,000,000 people who voted for His Tonyness wouldn't agree with you.

VOTE LABOUR


If I was Bliar for a day I would "do the honourable thing" on prime time TV!

24m people did not vote for Bliar. 26m people voted overall in 2001. The last time I checked, around 11m people voted Liabour and 10m voted Tory. The first-past-the-post system and the urban vote domination means that Liabour received a disproportionate number of seats. You could ask how many people did not vote Bliar - 15m, a majority it appears?

[crossbow]

Ha ha...the old PR gag..... the only way the tory liars are going to be elected...

So, the main reason you want to elect Mr Coward is because the last time you got a pay rise....hmmmmm well if you read the conservatory mandate I think you will find little mention of pay rises for aircrew...in fact I think you will see lots of good news for the Armed forces...words such as streamlining".... "More efficient"..."we will make major savings" and where is the conservative manifesto on defence?...where is the priority?...well look carefully and you might be able to find defence just after "Mobile phone mast technology" and "protecting traditional country pursuits" (like murdering foxes with dogs). Nope fellas, you will have to try harder to persuade me that the Tories have any interest at all in the AF's.

[brakedwell]

It might be better if Bliar's lot scrapes back into power to face the economic mess caused by Brown's tax spend and waste regime. Worldwide, interest are low and tax rates are falling, so they can't blame anyone else but themselves for the mess they have created.

Crossbow, you have to be a fervent and enthusiastic labour supporter to spout that rubbish.
You said: Remember the conservative government -- The ones who gave you:

1. The Poll Tax - A damn sight fairer than the rip off council tax we all suffer from suffer now.

2. 3 Million people unemployed - a world recession didn't help. Today 2.5 million out of the UK's 3.5 unemployed have been reclassified as on "sickness benefit".

3. 15% interest rates - high global interest rates caused by the world recession and inflation, not helped by high oil prices.

[airborne_artist]

Crossbow

Are you talking about the Tony B.Liar who infuriated the unions (!) by maintaining the Tory spending plans for his first two years in Govt?

He must have thought the Tory plan was a good one, then?

[Tartan Giant]

To answer the question: Rip out the liars and cheats in the Cabinet. I won't elaborate - it would take too long.

Noo Labour are a cancer that needs cutting out.

I agree with Brakedwell's summing up and blowing apart of the 3 items Crossbow came up with.


Some figures about who voted for whom last time round.

There were 41,620,262 entitled to vote.

17,712,000 did not bother to vote.

The total numbers who voted for one of the main (three) parties was 23,908,262.

The number of actual votes cast for the main parties and others:
Labour 10,740,168
Conservative 8,352,845
Lib Dems 4,815,249
Others 780,000
---------------------

How any sane, reasonable person can vote Noo Liars Labour back in is beyond me.
This country deserves much better than the proven liars in the top echelons of Noo Labour power.

Look at Blunkett - still sitting in the best money can buy after deliberately and knowingly issuing First Class rail warrants to his fancy woman. Imagine if the Stn Cdr tried that crap - out on his ear quicker than you can say "VISA for my friend".

Look at Mandy: Deliberately misleads Parliament and gets a dodgy loan - undeclared.

Look at Two Jags: the bugger should be back on ships serving the tea.

Look at Morley/Beckett/Whitty: Made a complete arse of the FMD 2001 outbreak.
More than 11 million animals slaughtered, of which 87% were healthy.
REFUSED a Public Inquiry into the FMD disaster that had cost this nation £40 BILLION (Institute of Directors figure) and still after 4 years have not sorted out the FMD Contingency Plan!


Noo Labour are a load of devious toads - look at the trouble we have had even getting that slippy eel BLiar to agree to a Referendum on the EU Constitution. The complete sod was not even going to allow us to vote on the most VITAL issue that has swallowed up democracy for a 1000 years.

Look what Noo Labour has sucked us into (after Heath signed us up without telling the whole truth - he admitted this) and most UK voters are blindfolded to the facts.

1.. supremacy of community law
2.. supremacy of the Union's court
3.. supremacy of the Central Bank of the Union
4.. a single currency
5.. a common economic zone
6.. common external borders
7.. free movement of goods, persons, services and capital
8.. common citizenship
9.. a common defence policy in the future
10.. a common foreign policy in the future
11.. ID cards
12.. coming soon trial without a jury
13.. jail/detention without proven criminal intent (oh sorry you are a terror suspect crap)

Guess what country had all that sh*t in place not so very long ago........ our old enemy the USSR.

The vote has to be CON - the best in the basket at this time.
The UKIP having committed the shot in the foot routine (KRS).


TG

[Pontious]

Tartan Giant

You forgot to mention the link between Claire Short and her paternal Uncle.

Crossbow

I'm not quite sure what scares me the most. I don't know if it is:


A) The fact that you believe the B******t that spews forth from your mouth.

B) The dream land that you live in about flying from BAe Warton- I think you've mis-spelt and should drop the 'f'.

C) If you are indeed a 'F-Lyer' at 'RAF Warton' how did your lack of mathematical skills get you past the Interview and Aptitude tests, IOT, EFT and the fast jet course?

D) The fact that you are 'Monkey'-ing about above my parent's houses.

Enjoy the 'Monkey'-ing while you can. Labour has a piss-poor record when it comes to standing by expensive Military Aircraft projects, especially when they are a Government in Crisis with a General Election looming. Anybody told you about the TSR2 yet?

Do you also subscribe to the Anti-Semitic Ad campaign? The current policy about Muslim Fundamentalists allowed to be placed under house arrest vis a vis Internment... all the other hair brained ideas?

I thank god I am a tax exiled ex pat living in the sun not contributing to the manufacture of Tony's Clones like you. I believe, if you say who you say you are, you also possess a service revolver? Well there's some waste ground at the back of 5 Hangar...get the message?

:ok:

[JessTheDog]

The number of actual votes cast for the main parties and others:

Labour 10,740,168
Conservative 8,352,845
Lib Dems 4,815,249
Others 780,000


Oops, I was a little bit out but not much! :uhoh:

An anti-Bliar consensus needs to be built. Most voters in 2001 rejected Bliar and this was before the Iraq adventure, detention without charge etc...

Some B-lies in no particular order...

B-lie 1! "I tried to stow away on a flight to the Caribbean as a schoolkid". No he didn't, can anyone imagine a direct flight from Newcastle during the 60s/70s?

B-lie 2! "I watched Jackie Milburn play for Newcastle from the vantage point of sitting behind the goalposts at St James's Park". Bliar was 4 when Milburn left Newcastle and the ground was wll-standing.

B-lie 3! "Weapons inspectors were kicked out of Iraq by Saddam Hussein". Nope, they were withdrawn prior to Op DESERT FOX.

B-lie 4! Something about current and serious threat from WMDs, some of which can be launched in 45 minutes etc... Err, where exactly are these WMDs?

The man is either irredeemably self-obsessed and dishonest or suffers from a borderline personality disorder. Let's see how much of a leading role he plays in Election '05 - I predict he wil be invisible because he is a B-liability to his party and because there are thousands of people out there who would happily plant a fist on his face on prime time TV.

[Send Clowns]

Nice to see Labour supporters still arguing from a point of ignorance. The Conservative spending plans do currently include an increase in defence spending. The Labour spending plans include taxing us all more, reducing everyone's effective earnings, to buy more votes for themselves by gerrymandering policies that put large swathes of the country on benefits (Labour tends to increase benefits, so those so dependent tend to vote Labour) and in government service, in pointless jobs (Labour tends to increase public sector pay, and many jobs are politicised, so these will vote Labour).

[crossbow]

Tee hee........:confused: :confused: :confused: :}

[Send Clowns]

Perhaps you could come up with a coherent argument when you are no longer so confused about those ranged against your case, x-bow.

[chippy63]

Airborne_artist,

Sure, he thought the C policies were essentially OK- he knew however that the perception (?and maybe the reality) was that the C were a bunch of $hites- answer; nick the policies, OK, we (New Lab) are a bunch of $hites, too ( lemme tell you about Gordon) but you don't know that yet!
I'm Trussmeetone, vote New Labour- and enough of them did!:*

[uknasa]

Well said Crossbow.

Send Clowns et al seem to have a very short memory.....Historically, which party has cut defence the most....the tories. You moan about Buff.......Soames was a shambles when Min(AF) and he would be the SoS!

[hyd3failure]

Exactly....many of these young fellows won't remember the mess that the Conservative party made of their last attempt at government...we shouldn't allow them to mess this country up again...

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Instead of the current lot who use the Armed Forces more than any other Government since World War Two - and then slash them?

And who are so commited to providing offensive systems that they see fit to cut the means to protect these highly valuable, highly vulnerable asets.

[Send Clowns]

uknasa

Try reading my post before criticising. I was talking about conservative policy, and pointing out that when crossbow was pontificating on it he was completely wrong: their announced policy is to increase spending on defence. I am right, he is wrong.

I was in the mob for some Tory cuts. They were unfortunate, but as far as I could see from a lowly position they were just about in line with commitments, although did reduce quality of life and caused some relatively minor problems. Princess Toneeee has increased commitments while further cutting back. I was in for that too, and it was just ridiculous.

hyd3, as most lefties, just said "they made a mess", no attempt to justify, no credit to Thatcher for saving the country from economic shambles. No acknowledgement that the current prosperity comes from Conservative policy, that started our current track in 1992. No comment on Labour policy over that time, or on the prevailing world conditions.

[The Gorilla]

Almost every one knows that we have one of the most corrupt Governments in British democratic history. The problem is that we call bare faced lies spin and none of the politicians are held accountable.

But the real truth is that in the next election the voters of our beloved land will ensure that labour get back into power. For no other reasons than interest rates are at historic and prolonged lows!!

The problem is that corruption breeds corruption. Having got back in power in spite of all the lies etc they will see it as a blank cheque to go even further. A historic 3rd term is inevitable but unthinkable!!!

:ok:

[air pig]

After hearing part of George W's State of the Union, I wonder what fantasy of a pretext B.liar will use to join George for his next foray into foreign diplomacy.

Only time will tell. Thank goodness there maybe an election this year, and maybe some rational thought about the world and our place in it, will happen.


If, as George W. states that Iran and Syria are the next areas of concern, and that they do have reported WMDs, we can only hope that part of the world does not end up a barren waste land for thousands of years, with all it's consequences, on people and places.

The world has just got a little less safe in the last twenty four hours.

:sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:

[WebPilot]

I think comparisons with the previous Tory governments are fundamentally meaningless. Like all administrations of whatever colour, the Tories made good and bad decisions. Certainly some of their defence cuts were ill-advised, but if we want to dredge up old war wounds, lets remember who cancelled TSR2 and then the F111, CVA01....need I go on?

What worries me most about the current lot is that some of the changes being made are constitutionally very damaging indeed, quite apart from the ill-judged war and the issues surrounding that. The Tories are probably not electable at the moment, but it is a trueism that policitians never win elections, they just gain power when someone else loses.

At the moment however, I think we are all losing.

[soddim]

Well, that's the point - he is only Prime Minister so he is not allowed to act like a dictator and change anything important in our country without a democratic process requiring a vote by a majority in the House of Commons and endorsed by the House of Lords. Problem is he seldom spends any time in Parliament and appears to have little regard for the democratic process.

One has to hope his majority next time will make him return to the commons or, better still, put him on the opposite side of the house.

[uknasa]

Send Clowns
You are actually wrong, but why let the truth get in the way of a typpically opportunistic tory rant. What did Mrs T do to the forces a couple of months after the Falklands? You mention well founded Tory cuts - try explaining that to the medical services folk - that is of course if there are any left.

[JessTheDog]

Send Clowns et al seem to have a very short memory.....Historically, which party has cut defence the most....the tories. You moan about Buff.......Soames was a shambles when Min(AF) and he would be the SoS!

Cuts on top of previous cuts are twice as stupid as the original cuts!

[Pontious]

JessTheDog

Oh and Geoff Buffoon's been a shining light has he? He hasn't made a single visit to a wounded soldier or their families since this war began. He only toddled off to EGDL today because of the way Bliar was caught off guard by a Tory Backbencher at PMQ's yesterday.

Tom King, David Davies, Michael Mates, Nick Soames and Michael Howard are all ex-Military Officers. Buffoon on the other hand is the most deadly of all. A trained accountant. The only Cabinet position more ridiculous would be if Bliar put Ken Dodd in charge of the Treasury!

:ok:

[Send Clowns]

uknasa

I am repeating a piece of policy that I heard described by Howard on Radio 4. I'll take him, rather than you, as my expert on Tory policy, thanks all the same.

[brakedwell]

Has anyone noticed how Bufoon has gradually shed his local dialect and now speaks with a pseudo posh accent picked up through hob nobbing with the upper echelons at the MOD?

Ken Dodd for Chancellor? Why not. At least he can cheer us up when we find out what a bad state the public finances are really in!

[JessTheDog]

h and Geoff Buffoon's been a shining light has he? He hasn't made a single visit to a wounded soldier or their families since this war began. He only toddled off to EGDL today because of the way Bliar was caught off guard by a Tory Backbencher at PMQ's yesterday.

Tom King, David Davies, Michael Mates, Nick Soames and Michael Howard are all ex-Military Officers. Buffoon on the other hand is the most deadly of all. A trained accountant. The only Cabinet position more ridiculous would be if Bliar put Ken Dodd in charge of the Treasury!

I do not disagree with you and I concur that TCH (That **** Hoon) is quite rightly the most detested SoS for Defence ever. However, there have been too many cuts in the past in search of a peace dividend and errors have been made - the deplorable cuts to the Defence Medical Services for example. These can be criticised without exonerating or endorsing TCH, whose intentions are (at least!) twice as mendacious or misguided as the worst excesses of his predecessors.

[CrabInCab]

BWOS - well if the RAF is BWOS then thats me. Nope Im a serving member of HM's finest. Im currently flying my A--e off at a small and quiet airfield in Lancashire.

X-Bow's a UAS stude at Woodvale!

:E

[Green Meat]

And lost, too. WV's not in Lancashire! :ooh:

[16 blades]

...and a cock of the first order.

The left are reminding people of things that happened in the past since they know it's their only hope. Things that were largely driven by global economic conditions, which national governments by and large cannot influence directly.

In fact, the economy has largely bugger-all to do with the govt (unless they grossly over or under-tax the populis), especially in this country with an 'independant' bank of england. (and yes, i KNOW that was down to this govt, but it was the first and last good thing they did).

It's a simple choice - do we want higher taxation, more interference and nanny-state control, more pontificating and less achievement?

Or do we want smaller govt, more control of our lives, less benefit scrounging, more money in our pockets, and the right to govern ourselves?

I know what I want.

16B

[CrabInCab]

And lost, too. WV's not in Lancashire!

Bugger, even checked that on 'puter, day one week one basic countyology really! :D

[TC27]

IS this the usual standard of political debate that can be found upon joining the RAF?

Personally I think goverments of any colour will cut defence to free up revinue to spend in areas that win votes, sadly this is a fact of life until the public at large start caring or we switch to an authoritarian system.

[Green Meat]

Crab

That wasn't a snipe at your geography, rather crossbow's... He's probably too busy falling down the rabbit holes after an away day from Uni in the mess!


:ok:

GM

[crossbow]

Its funny you should mention Woodvale as, although I never had the opportunity to fly with the UAS, I did atend University at Liverpool (Before they named it after a catologue). However, in 1976 when I joined the RAF, woodvale was very busy and always known as somewhere to avoid.

[qwertyuiop]

Green Meat.

Are you sure WV is not in Lancs? If its not, which county is it in?

[Green Meat]

Technically, WV is in Merseyside since the boundary changes imposed in 1974, although Merseyside now no longer exists as a unitary authorty per se. WV, therefore is in Merseyside as an area, but Sefton admininstratively - and I don't even live there!

So, Crossbow, I notice that you don't actually admit to being at WV. The small and quiet airfields in Lancashire proper are remarkably few and far between - in fact, the only active airfields in Lancs that I can think of are Warton and Blackpool. You can include Samlesbury if you count gliders. If it is WV, then you're either UAS or AEF staff pilot, or are senior enough to know better than to make comments when you leave yourself so identifiable. Or are you serving, but flying with the civ flying club? Oh the myriad of options.

Incidentally, the word I'm has an apostrophe as it is a contraction of 'I am'. :ok:

[BEagle]

Eh, eh, eh - are you accusing scousers of having nicked a friggin' aerodrome now? Eh, eh?

[Green Meat]

Well, WV spotted (late 80s?) been re-sprayed green, combine that with the Meteor that used to be 'up on bricks' (yes, I know, now in bits!) and I'll leave you to draw your own conclusion Beags you wag you!

X-bow: At least I was right about the private flying club...;)

[lineslime]

Getting back on track with this thread, if I was Bliar I would round up the cabinet, crossbow and Bush, take them on a nice cruise to an island somewhere in the south pacific then encourage the French to resume nuclear testing on arrival. A bit harsh I know, but fair.:ok:

[Melchett01]

Was it her looks or her personality?! (Or am I missing something?!)

No Smilingknifed, you're not.

But she is! :E

[surely not]

This should be an interesting forum to visit when the Tories are reduced to 3rd place in the next election :D

The word 'fair' takes quite a battering in here. It seems to mean 'fair to me and sod everyone else' to quite a few of you.

[JessTheDog]

This should be an interesting forum to visit when the Tories are reduced to 3rd place in the next election

Watch Liabour's poll lead start to fall. It happened in 2001. The lead will plummet faster as a result of the unpleasant machinations of Campbell (the liar who claimed we were 45 minutes from destruction) which will alienate Liabour voters, a dying breed. Tory voters will turn out and vote - the Observer has polled voters about likely turnout and Tory voters are 72% likely to vote with Liabour voters 55% likely to turnout.

Lib Dems who previously voted for Liabour as an anti-Tory tactic will not repeat this tactic. The many Liabour voters dismayed at the Iraq adventure and the surrounding spin will either not vote or will vote Lib Dem.

So, Liabour will take a pounding as the result of a low Liabour turnout, a steady Tory vote and an impressive Lib Dem performance. I predict a Liabour majority of perhaps 20-40 seats, enough of a failure to dispatch Bliar.

Not convinced? Try this site:

http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/index.html


If there is a 4% unwind of tactical swing by Liberal Democrat supporters who voted Labour in 2001, Labour will lose 23 extra seats and have a majority of 70.

If you enter in the tactical voting change of minus/plus 4% for Labour/Lib Dems using the latest YouGov poll of 34%/31%/25% then the Liabour majority is a mere 16 seats. I doubt this worst case scenario will happen, but the low Liabour turnout will compound whatever effect the lack of pro-Liabour tactical voting will have!

I'll be up on election night with a bottle of the fizzy alcoholic stuff!

:)

[surely not]

Well glad you've got it sorted Jess the Dog.............Hardly worth going to vote now that we know the result already :D

I think a Tory recovery under Howard is unlikely. He cannot be trusted to be any more honest than TB and his gang. If he was an honest politician (oxymoron there !) he would have answered the question that Paxman asked him.

72% of Tories might well vote, but that is 72% of a reducing number of people. As the Tories retreat back to policies from 20+ years ago their popular appeal will dwinde. We don't live in the late 70's anymore.

[pr00ne]

Gorilla,

“Almost every one knows that we have one of the most corrupt Governments in British democratic history”

Remind me again just how many senior and ex- Cabinet figures have been sent to prison in this present Government? Oh, that’s right, NONE!
Now ask yourself the same thing about the last lot and you get a VERY different answer.

Send Clowns,

The current Tory promise on defence is to increase spending at the same time as cutting taxes, increasing spending on education and health and NOT cutting public services. They also will cut massively the amount of “waste and inefficiency” in the defence budget, this is where their so called increase in spending comes from!

As to your assertion that previous Tory cuts were “just about in line with commitments” GET REAL MAN! They were at the height of the Cold war and involved reducing air defence capability, massive cuts to amphibious and maritime air capability, huge reductions in the RN surface fleet and general reductions in war reserves. If the Argentines had waited about 8 months to invade the Falklands then thanks to the Tory cuts from Thatcher and Nott there would have been no way on earth to get them back!
I won’t even go into the total mess they made of the defence medical services and the cynical raid on the MOD married quarter estate to raise capital.

Soddim,

You make a powerful constitutional point that I would not argue with for a second, I would hate to see him on the opposite side of the house but I would LOVE to see him there full stop!

[JessTheDog]

Well glad you've got it sorted Jess the Dog.............Hardly worth going to vote now that we know the result already

Only if you are a Liabour voter!;)

[The Gorilla]

Pr00ne

YET!!

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Pr00ne I think Send Clowns was refering to the '90s post Cold War cuts. Nobody with a brain would defend the cuts imposed by John Nott, particularly when in many respects the present Government is repeating the same mistakes.

Remind me again just how many senior and ex- Cabinet figures have been sent to prison in this present Government?

Funny you say that, Mandelson was guilty of mortgage fraud - an offence which lesser mortals get sent down for.

PS Did you get asked before Blair signed the European constitution?

[pr00ne]

WEBF,

It was NOT mortgage fraud, and a lesser mortal would not only have NOT gone down for it but also would NOT have lost their job for it!

Have you READ the EU constitution?

[Pilgrim101]

Mandelson's an odious, self serving creep who's been canned twice now and like every other political slimeball he's only interested in keeping his nose in the trough. There's no honour in the man or his sanctimonious party.

[pr00ne]

Pilgrim101,

Sorry, didn't realise you knew him!

[Fortyodd]

Probably sitting in the smallest room in the house wishing I had Ellen MacArthurs "B@lls"!!

:ok:

[Pilgrim101]

Proone

Unfortunately yes ! Him and several of his sycophantic entourage - purely professional of course !;)

His appointment to NI SEc was a classic miscasting. Imagine the Catholic Republicans and the Strait Laced Unionist Prods watching him mincing about trying to act the hard man :}

And his behaviour caused his position to be untenable (twice) Even too much for TB to stomach :oh:

[JessTheDog]

Ahh, Mr Mandelscum!

The same man that referred to the Brigade of Guards as "chinless wonders"!

As well as the Hinduja passport scandal and the dishonest mortgage application, which may not have earned a "mortal" jail time but would have certainly ended in a criminal record. Talking of criminal records, Mandlelscum (it is said) narrowly avoided one in the 80s for a certain misjudgement of age.........:mad:

He is a despicable character and it is merely a matter of time before he is fingered again.....:ok:

[hyd3failure]

Pr00ne said
As to your assertion that previous Tory cuts were “just about in line with commitments” GET REAL MAN! They were at the height of the Cold war and involved reducing air defence capability, massive cuts to amphibious and maritime air capability, huge reductions in the RN surface fleet and general reductions in war reserves. If the Argentines had waited about 8 months to invade the Falklands then thanks to the Tory cuts from Thatcher and Nott there would have been no way on earth to get them back!
well said fella. Lets never let the Conservative party ruin this country again. The Labour party have just about got this country back on its feet again after years of sleeze and misgovernment.

VOTE LABOUR

[JessTheDog]

The Labour party have just about got this country back on its feet again after years of sleeze and misgovernment.

Is that up there with Tony's "45 minutes until destruction" lie?:yuk:

[WE Branch Fanatic]

So there's no similarity between the cuts under Nott ("no unforseen events will occur, because we can't forsee them") and the premature retirement of the Sea Jet (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=98152) and other post SDR reductions (made at the same time the operational tempo shows few signs of slowing)? "No unforseen events will occur, because we can't forsee them"

Really? :confused: :confused:

[The Swinging Monkey]

Crossbow,

YOU NEED ASSESSMENT!!!!!!!!

I think your only here to have a laugh at us all, and wind us up - oh you naughty little boy!

Gents, stop fuelling this nutters ego!! He's having a laugh at us all. His real name is.......Alistair Campbell!!! that other tw*t from the labour party!!

Kind regards
TSM
'Caruthers, send Mr campbell a large bottle of my finest pi$$'

[uknasa]

WE weapons Fanatic
"PS Did you get asked before Blair signed the European constitution?"

Yes - like you (if you were old enough to vote) - it was called a general election in 2001 - read the manifesto

[tarbaby]

Presumption: You guys are reasonably intelligent.
Why then do you trust any politician?

[16 blades]

Response: We don't!

16B

[Jackonicko]

Anyone who graduated from Uni in 1976 (even from a second rate red brick establishment like Liverpool) ought to be able to spell 'atend' and 'catologue' better than Crossbow can.

[flash8]

and whats wrong with Liverpool?

[Pontious]

Hyd3failiure

I'd lay off of the Scrumpy if I was you. You are starting to believe your own Bullsh1t. The same Bullsh1t that the rest of the country and electorate know is Bullsh1t.

:ok:

[woptb]

Having experienced Black wednesday & all the other examples of the economy safe in the Torys hands. Think i'll stick with the current lot of 'very low' interest rate 8ullsh1tters!

[Roland Pulfrew]

That would of course be the Bank of England's lowest rates!!! Rates which we had when this bunch of smear and spin merchants came to power!!! :mad: History! It's a marvellous thing, but they probably didn't cover that at school did they WOPTB. These lowest set of interest rates were started by the previous bunch. Rates may have gone up to 15% on Black Monday (wouldn't ever have happened if we hadn't joined the ERM) but they also came down again fairly rapidly thereafter.

Also from the papers came the quote "probably the best thing that happened to this country" to be thrown out of the ERM. It started the longest period of sustained growth since the industrial revolution. So this lot carried on many of the policies of the last lot and Hey Presto good Liabour management of the economy!

News this morning 111 new Quangos under Liabour! How many civil serpents do that lot employ?

[woptb]

Must admit i had'nt noticed an economic freefall or massive rate rises since they came to power what would you put that down to?. What is it the usual "it was all the world economy doing it's thing?" or possibly economic savants?

[Roland Pulfrew]

Precisely. The last lot got the rates back down (lower than they are now) and started the period of growth. When was Black Monday? Early 90s? At least 5 years before Liabour came to power? We have had some 15 years of sustained growth, reducing unemployment (unless of course you include all those on incapacity benefit (spongers)). But we are all going to face large increases in tax if this lot are voted back into power. Even the accountants that use the Treasury model think there is a massive black hole looming. Vote this lot in again your peril!

[Send Clowns]

Hyd3 - how can you support pr00ne's distortions? As WE Branch says I was talking about the 90s cuts, (a) because I was a kid in the early 80s and cannot really be expected to have an accurate opinion and (b) the potentially damaging cuts did not happen - or is INVINCIBLE actually being secretly run by the RAN to whom it was due to be sold? Were FEARLESS and INTREPID not actually at sea 10 years and more after the Nott review?

How can you say that the Tories were sleazy and misgoverned then support the blatant corruption shown by this government, that sold policy for £1 milllion a time, and had many other scandals, each worse than any of the Tory misdemeanor that were mostly blown out of all proportion by the press? Most of the Labour corruption has been in high office, compared to backbenchers alleged (only by a known liar, Fayed, in one case) to have been paid to ask a question? How ignorant do you have to be to imagine that to be as bad as the purchase of government ministers?

How many people do you know who lost money to the man that bought Mandleson who should have been investigating his company? The same man that used funds from a public limited company to entertain top Labour personnel, including Blair, and buy his way into office he was never voted into. Money that the company needed, as the shares dropped to become worthless (my Father gave his away, so as to register a loss for tax).

As for misgovernment, the trampling over the UK constitution by Labour is actually what misgovernment means, try to get your terminology right. In terms of governing badly they could teach anyone some tricks. The only decent things they have done are (a) follow Tory economic policy for a few years (b) decide not to govern in the case of the Bank of England. Nearly everything they have decided on has been poorly-judged, often startlingly so and either immensely stupid or disgustingly political - such as buying votes with benefits and public-sector jobs.

woptb

Do you actually know what happened around "Black Wednesday"? That the day itself set up our current prosperity? That the cause, the ERM, was a policy that only the Conservatives were reluctant to support? That it was almost forced on Major in the end? That leaving was probably delayed partly by Labour support for the ERM (remember Europe was an issue on which Major had to tread very carefully, and tried to get cross-party support having insufficient majority to apply policy that split his party without it)? That the Euro is currently causing serious economic problems across Europe for the same reasons the ERM did in the UK, the Euro only opposed by the Tories of the major parties? The only thing you seem to understand is that the world economy has more effect than any government can.

[Fg Off Bloggs]

I trust that those espousing New Bliar theories on this forum are not aircrew because they display astounding myopia!

[woptb]

I have a reasonable grasp of the events of "Black Wednesday" & strangely pre & post also!
Black Wednesday was just the cherry on the icing, it was Lamonts,Major's & needless to say the Torys defining failure.
There was already a recession at the begining of the 90's, the Black Wednesday fiasco just added to it.
Rather than laying any great economic foundation the event only served to line the pockets of speculators like George Soros (incidentally a Tory party 'donor'). Majors policys were the weakling 'Bastard children' of 80's Thatcherism . If you don't remember the 80's that was when Mrs T was dismantling the social fabric of the UK . Talking of taxation, remember the poll tax ? By the way Mrs Thatcher wrote the book on non concensual governance. Pergau Dam, Westlands - scandal shmandel!

[jindabyne]

woptb


Remeber the poll tax? Sure do, and a bXXXXy sight fairer than the present system, IMHO.

Now I'm no great fan of either of the two major parties (Liberal - Haah!), but, like most Labour spinners, you spout a wonderfully distorted version of the UK economy pre-1997. Digest Send Clown's last paragraph in his last post - it's historically accurate.

[pr00ne]

Roland Pulfrew,

I am afraid you are WRONG! So so wrong. You claim;

“Rates which we had when this bunch of smear and spin merchants came to power!!!”

In actual fact when Labour came to power interest rates were 6.5%. To find a time when Tory economic management matched the current low of 3.75% of Feb 2003 you have to go all the way back to 27th January 1955 when rates reached a low of 3.5%

The peak of Black Wednesday also took over 4 years to subside to something approaching what it had been before. Many businesses went to the wall in that time.


So Roland, to claim that “the last lot got the rates back down (lower than they are now)" is simply factually and historically wrong.

Would the Tory party EVER have given the Bank of England it's independence? I doubt it.

Send Clowns.

You make a fair point about some of the cuts not happening, but of course that was purely down to the Argentine invasion of the Falklands, NOT Tory defence policy. ALL of the other damaging cuts to Air Defence capability, war reserve stocks, training flying hours and fuel allocations most certainly DID happen, as I said, right at the heart of the Cold war.

[Oggin Aviator]

Think how many more helicopters or hospitals or prisons we could have had had they not built the Millenium Dome. Nice use of cash, still utilised to this day, a crowning British achievement in the eyes of the world ........ not.

[jindabyne]

prOOne

Sorry old chap - 'tis YOU that is so , so WRONG. I'd PM you with actual facts to avoid boring other posters - but I simply can't be ar**ed at this time of a night.

[pr00ne]

jindabyne,

The facts I quoted ARE the facts!

[jindabyne]

Undeniably, my lefty lud

[Roland Pulfrew]

Prune

I stand corrected (if they are the facts)! However, if the previous bunch had not taken the action they did we would probably still be the "sick man of Europe". By doing what they did many lame ducks did go to the wall, but it did start the longest period of sustained growth this country has had. (I see you do not dispute that). It started with the last bunch and has continued to date. We are now one of the strongest economies in the world and that would not have been achieved without the last lots apparent "mismanagement". If it hadn't been for Thatcherism the unions would still be running this country. By defeating the unions the last lot created the base for economic growth. Sadly it was too late for many companies as the damage had been done. Lets not forget the Friday cars built by Red Robbo and his mates which probably finished MG Rover (BL) for ever.

[woptb]

Lets not forget the superb 'world beating ' management of the time,the superbly designed modernistic products & the decades of reinvestment! Oh yes ! they led the way! British management,best in the world!

[foldingwings]

Not to mention the Looney Left that still lurks within New Labour!

The Mayor of London has recently been showing his true colours by abusing a Jewish journalist by describing him to his face as typical of a Concentration Camp Commander! Tactful, what?

Heard the tape yesterday on PM on Radio 4 - definitely him (unmistakable voice!). Red Ken is alive and well.

So let's not have any defence of this kind of fascist outburst from New Labour members on PPRuNe, please!

[Pontious]

Hyd3,woptb,Proone et all the other New Labour Leftie Looney Luvvies show a remarkably selective grasp of UK political history.

I want to know where the Millbank get their 'Dirty Tricks' department. Are they ex-BA? I mean 'releasing' selected parts of the run up to Black Wednesday just as the posturing for an upcoming General Election. Did anyone see the positively negative response to the "Chat to a Cabinet Member" phone in?
Nobody wanted to talk to the slime. Hilarious.

But to all the other Ppruners of the common sense variety the wheels are, at last, starting to come off the caravans of the Bliar & Brown Travelling Circus. Don't worry, everybody, normal service will be resumed as soon as possible. The only thing that worries me about the Tory's policing policy is putting the 'Met in the hands of the Lord Mayor of London...Red Ken!!!

:ok:

[Argus]

May I suggest that the reason why many Britons can't be bothered to vote is because in the electorate's mind, all politicians are alike and can't be trusted.

In a 1998 Research Paper, the Parliamentary Library in Canberra noted that a recurring issue in the Australian Parliament, the press and in the community was the standard of parliamentarians’ conduct.

The Paper noted that public attitudes to parliamentarians’ behaviour, as shown in a 1998 opinion poll, were that only 7% of Australians believed that parliamentarians were of high or very high standards of honesty and ethics. The only profession rating lower than parliamentarians was car salesmen, at 2%. The Paper concluded that trust in parliamentarians was at an all time low.

Parliamentarians’ unethical behaviour, both perceived and actual, induces citizens to believe that the system is incapable of operating in a way that protects and promotes the public interest. The present system is seen by many as being merely self-serving.

The issue facing ALL politicians is how the challenge of actual and perceived unethical behaviour and the consequent growing cynicism about the system of government ought to be met.

Public office holders are trustees for the public interest. Being a trustee creates a duty that those elected to public office will act only in the people’s interest. Unethical behaviour matters because it involves breaking that trust in not acting in accordance with certain principles that all the community shares.

The message is clear - ALL politicians must lift their game.

[pr00ne]

Argus,

A neat post, hard to argue against from any particular political stance


Pontious,

New Labour Leftie Looney Luvvies? Try and be a little more original. There is nothing particularly left wing about this Gov’t, but there’s an awful lot of radical ridiculous right wing extremism in the other lot!

As to normal service being resumed, Look out Public services and any Public spending, remember what they did to the Defence medical services and the MQ estate, wonder what will take a hit this time?

[Argus]

prOOne

Thank you.

It’s not so much a "pox on both their houses". It’s more to do with getting some new blood, ideas and values into politics, and hopefully restoring some modicum of confidence in our elected representatives.

What irks me is that, at a time when the public perception of politicians is at an all time low, both major parties, at least here in Oz, continue to select potential MPs from the ranks of timeservers, party/union hacks, and generally those who have only ever suckled shamelessly on the public mammaries. Individuals with talent, verve, integrity, real world experience and selflessness need not apply.

I've seen nothing to suggest that either the UK Labour or Tory Party operates differently to their Antipodean equivalents.

To get some enlivenment, I'd like to see a two term limit on politicians in all houses of parliament. And similarly, I'd look to limit the tenure of all senior public/civil servants to that of the Minister they serve. Notwithstanding the protestations of the latter day 'Sir Humphreys', the days of an independent bureaucracy and 'frank and fearless' advice have long since gone.

[Pontious]

Proone

"...what will take a hit this time...?" well hopefully the Bullsh1t, red tape, crippling taxation, the queues of illegal immigrants and a few policies dictated by common sense, for a common cause, with a common theme that will benefit people other than the Legions of Illegals camped on our borders, that will no longer swell the coffers of 'The Party Faithfull' heavyweight financial donors and that will dent the over confident- under competant, over inflated, over fattened, cantankerous, complacent ego's that prowl the corridors of Downing Street and Millbank.


:ok:

[pr00ne]

Pontius,

Put your Daily Mail down for a second and look at the real world, we have a declining population, more people leave the UK every year than enter it, we NEED these immigrants very badly. They are your dental assistants, your trained nurses, your Doctors and your Bus drivers. They are also your lawyers. I have a close colleague who was an illegal immigrant from Iraq many years ago, now fully legal he is a super guy and a very talented Lawyer. Even Michael howards father was an alleged illegal immigrant.

Red tape I agree with whole heartedly, crippling taxation? Really? Where were you in the 1970's?

[hyd3failure]

I have to agree with Mr Pr00ne....Left wing???? the Labour Party, Left wing???? good gawd man... His royal Tonyness is more Conservative than that awful Thatcher woman...

VOTE LABOUR

[Lafyar Cokov]

prOOne

With regards to tax, the income tax in the 70's (under the the Labour govt of Callahan et al) did appear crippling - however with VAT at 7%, inheritance tax only affecting a select few very rich families, a reasonably fair rate system and very few other taxes the whole tax burden on an average family was below what it is now.

These days you are taxed at least 3 times on every penny you earn. In addition to this whenever you buy a house anywhere south of Leeds you pay 3% stamp duty. When you leave your house in your will your offspring have to sell it to give the government 40% of the value. The government take hundereds of million of pounds in traffic offence violations - thanks to speed cameras. There are £100 fines for individuals not filling out their tax returns - a job until recently actually carried out by government officials..... please don't say we are better off tax wise now than in the 70s!!!

:o)

[hyd3failure]

These days you are taxed at least 3 times on every penny you earn. In addition to this whenever you buy a house anywhere south of Leeds you pay 3% stamp duty. When you leave your house in your will your offspring have to sell it to give the government 40% of the value. The government take hundereds of million of pounds in traffic offence violations - thanks to speed cameras. There are £100 fines for individuals not filling out their tax returns - a job until recently actually carried out by government officials..... please don't say we are better off tax wise now than in the 70s!!! and all so that YOU can sleep well at night knowing that this caring government is going to spend all that money on an Aircraft carrier (or 2).

VOTE LABOUR

[16 blades]

Hyd3Failure,

His royal Tonyness is more Conservative than that awful Thatcher woman.

He is much worse than that - he is in fact a radical progressive lefty masquerading as a friend to business and the middle classes who put him in power in the first place - in other words, a professional bullsh1tter pretending to be all things to all men.

If he is as right wing as you claim, why on earth would you and other lefties like pr00ne wish to see him remain in power? At least have some integrity in your politics!

DO NOT VOTE LABOUR, or you will end up just like Hyd3Failure!

16B

[pr00ne]

Lafyar Cokov,

You try paying 60% tax and then 90% over a certain sum, believe me it hurt. I represent clients who could not afford to live in the UK in the 70's who are happily domiciled here now.
VAT from 7 to 17.5% most peole wouldn't notice, all the others are valid points but have been raised by ALL regimes in the last 30 years.

If you don't want to pay so much tax what are you prepared to lose? Defence, Public services, education, transport infrastructure?

Part of the economic problems of the last 25 years has been that we have never paid our way as a society, we simply do not pay enough tax to pay for what as a rich country we should be investing.

[16 blades]

If you don't want to pay so much tax what are you prepared to lose?

How about a significant proportion of the 500-odd quangos that the govt funds, that are unelected, totally unaccountable, and largely useless.

The 750,000 public sector jobs created out of thin air by this government, largely to look after the interests of narrowly-defined minority groups.

The huge sums handed out to bogus asylum seekers, illegal imigrants, workshy scroungers milking the incapacity benefit system, the stupendous legal aid bill to support any / all of the above.

Endless commisions / focus groups set up to discover if bears do, in fact, sh1t in the woods or if the pope is, indeed, catholic.

The Millenium Dome.

.....and so on, and so forth.....

The govt's OWN inquiry found £22 BILLION of WASTE in govt spending. That is almost as much as the entire Defence Vote.

How about that for starters??

Part of the economic problems of the last 25 years has been that we have never paid our way as a society, we simply do not pay enough tax to pay for what as a rich country we should be investing.

Pr00ne, I cannot believe you are being serious with this statement. Which school of economics did you go to? The way to make an economy grow is by REDUCING taxation, giving people more money in their pockets to spend on things and invest. High taxation takes away your local shopkeeper's profits, as well as the profits of any company or establishment that would have benefitted from your hard-earned, thereby hurting the wider economy. A vibrant economy will ultimately mean higher tax income for a govt, in much the same way a supermarket reducing its prices to sell more goods will ultimately make more profit.

16B

[Argus]

16 blades
The govt's OWN inquiry found £22 BILLION of WASTE in govt spending. That is almost as much as the entire Defence Vote.

Ah, government waste - a subject dear to my heart. I'm old enough to remember the long gone days when OHMS envelopes were reused via a sticky label, when government offices were painted brown/green and when public employees were civil and of service.

Now, civil service is a euphemism for 'rights before responsibility', nil customer focus and the 'I'm all right Jack' attitude, brilliantly portrayed by Peter Sellers as long ago as 1959.

Try the 'Yellow Pages' test. If it's listed in the Directory, then Government has no business being in that business.

And remove tenure for all public employees; where appropriate, replace with performance based fixed term renewable employment contracts.

[Lee Jung]

Tony Blair for day eh.....

Launch inquest as to why a PC based computer system for the NHS cost £30Bn which will last only 10 years. This is like building 2 CVF a year....

Legislate so all private schools must take 10% of its intake made up of pupils from failing schools in order to break the poverty chain.

Make full unemployment benefit payable for only a limited period, then reducing with time.

Require tangible medical evidence for claims of disability living allowance.

Introduce a higher rate of income tax of 50% for all earners of £150,000pa and 60% for incomes of 250%. Reduce current higher rate to 30%.

Combine all special interest commision into one board,

i.e Racial, Diasability, et al.

Harrasment and inequality is much the same regardless of the cause. That should save some money.

Bring MPs pensions into line with civil servants, making them suffer with an increase in working age and a move from final salary to representative. (Same as armed forces).

Introduce child care in all primary schools and remove all child benefits and child tax credits.

Reduce MPs motor milage allowance from 65p pm to 25p pm, same as MOD.

Council tax to be paid at a rate per adult in the dwelling.

Immigration to be via a targeted quota system bringing in professionals/workers in shortage categories. Full citizenship not given for 5 years (including any state benefits). Settlements funds of circa £2000 pp to be held to pay for return airfare in result of return to original country. 80% tax on any cash sent back to host country for lifetime.

Asylum seekers returned to first EU country they arrived in (admitted to arriving in) iaw EU directive.

Any person found guilty of driving without tax/insurance/MOT or driving offence such as DUI banned for 5 years. This will also help reduce road congestion.

Increase car ownership age to 21 and basic driving tests every 5 years once over 65 until 80 and yearly thereafter.

Large tax increase on third car per household of 2 adults.

Fire Brigade to be made up of UK forces personnel on true second line employment. Also enable personnel to be employed near home town. Cheaper than current system and no chance of strikes.

Life imprisonment for any politician deemed guilty of fraud/corruption/misleading parliament.

Maximum amount of lawyers per party standing as MPs. In order to get a more realistic spectrum of backgrounds into government.

Just a few initial thoughts, no doubt be castigated by the Blairites.

[BEagle]

Can we add to that list:

Physical castration for rapists.
Death penalty for murder and child molestation.
Any drug dealer to be boiled alive in their own excreta.

And as for apostrophe abusers.....

[jockspice]

Lee Jung

Been thinking about that a while, or is your current job a bit boring? ;) :D

[Zlin526]

Lee Jung,

You, my dear chap, are the new PM as far as I'm concerned! Get yourself a political party and most 'normal' Brits will vote for you..

Interesting reading this thread over the past few weeks. Sounds very similar to the useless slanging matches in the House of Commons that happen everyday amongst the so-called representatives of the UK populace.

Any reply to that from you leftie fags?

Politics are best left to those who have failed at other things, eh Tone?

[Roland Pulfrew]

PrOOne

A bit selective on the taxation argument aren't we? Labour had 60% and 90% tax not the Tories!! The Tories reduced taxation, but Liabour have increased taxes consistently since they came to power and anyone who does not believe that they will rise again if this bunch of self-serving :mad: are re-elected is living in cloud cuckoo land!! Even the accountants using the Treasury's own financial model are predicting a massive hole in public finances, which will require large increasesin taxation.

What do I want to see go? Well benefit fraud, support to illegals and asylum seekers, a better managed and efficient health service will do as starters.

As for:

Put your Daily Mail down for a second and look at the real world, we have a declining population, more people leave the UK every year than enter it, we NEED these immigrants very badly.

That is utter bull. The UK population when I went to school was recognised as being 54 million (early 80s before you ask), it is now 60 270 000. That is hardly a declining population!!! And the more people leaving than entering is again untrue. The Government's own figures for last year were 300 000 emigrating and 450 000 immigrating (give or take a few). That is more arriving than leaving.

And just why do we need so many immigrants? There are still over a million on the unemployment register, and probably double or treble that figure if "incapacity" benefit is taken into account. Don't tell me that all of those people are genuinely unemployable.

This country is already one of the most over populated in Europe. We cannot accomodate everyone. How about we look at 2 countries with approximately equal spending power, the UK and France.

Both have an equivalent spending power of $1.666 Trillion and $1.661 Trillion respectively, both have similar population sizes 60 270 000 and 60 424 000 respectively. But France has a land mass over twice the size of the UK, 241 590 sq km and 545 630 sq km respectively. So now why do we need to add to the population?

Hyd3 fail. Dream on about the carriers. If this lot are returned to power I predict that they will be taken as savings measures. They almost went last year in the MOD savings rounds!!

[A good headin]

Tony B(liar) for the day.....hmmm.

I would lock myself in a dark room along with 'Holiday Hoon' and ask ourselves why we allowed 700 hours of parliamentary debating time to be wasted on fox hunting and exactly the same number of hours debating going to war with Iraq.

Guess a fox's life is worth more than our Servicemen and womens.

Still Geoff got his holiday in before the big push, which was my main worry.

Must remember that for next time (cheesy colgate toothpaste grin to finish on).

:D

[AEROsmithy]

I wouldn't change anything. I think him, his wife and the labour party has had so much one sided biased press.

I think he's great.

Aerosmithy

P.s. I also think hes good looking!

[jindabyne]

Oh my god chaps, it's crossbow's girlfriend!

Lee Jung,

You have my vote

[tarbaby]

Come back Dennis Healey. Proone needs some pips tp sqeeze!

[jindabyne]

The thing with the Tories is that they only remember the good times; the thing with Labour is that they haven't any good times to remember.

[pr00ne]

Lee Jung,

Zlin526 has asked if there are any replies to your post from the “leftie fags” now I don’t quite know what he means by a fag, unless he’s some sort of homophobe who thinks that is a sort of insult, but, here goes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Launch inquest as to why a PC based computer system for the NHS cost £30Bn which will last only 10 years. This is like building 2 CVF a year....
BLOODY GOOD IDEA NOT JUST NHS EITHER.NOT JUST A LABOUR ISSUE THOUGH

Legislate so all private schools must take 10% of its intake made up of pupils from failing schools in order to break the poverty chain.
EXCELLENT IDEA!

Make full unemployment benefit payable for only a limited period, then reducing with time.
ER, IT ALREADY IS!

Require tangible medical evidence for claims of disability living allowance.
ER, IT ALREADY IS!

Introduce a higher rate of income tax of 50% for all earners of £150,000pa and 60% for incomes of 250%. Reduce current higher rate to 30%.
BLOODY GOOD IDEA!

Combine all special interest commission into one board, i.e. Racial, Disability,etc.
BLOODY GOOD IDEA!

Harassment and inequality is much the same regardless of the cause. That should save some money.
BLOODY GOOD IDEA!

Bring MPs pensions into line with civil servants, making them suffer with an increase in working age and a move from final salary to representative. (Same as armed forces).
BLOODY GOOD IDEA!

Introduce child care in all primary schools and remove all child benefits and child tax credits.
INTERESTING, WONDER IF THAT WOULD BE COST NEGATIVE?

Reduce MPs motor mileage allowance from 65p pm to 25p pm, same as MOD.
THEY ONLY GET 65P? SHAME…………………….

Council tax to be paid at a rate per adult in the dwelling.
UNFAIR ON LARGER FAMILIES WHO TEND TO BE POORER

Immigration to be via a targeted quota system bringing in professionals/workers in shortage categories. Full citizenship not given for 5 years (including any state benefits). Settlements funds of circa £2000 pp to be held to pay for return airfare in result of return to original country. 80% tax on any cash sent back to host country for lifetime.
FOR ECONOMIC MIGRANTS A GOOD IDEA, 5 YRS A GOOD IDEA, £2000 A BARMY IDEA!

Asylum seekers returned to first EU country they arrived in (admitted to arriving in) iaw EU directive.
NOT SURE HOW THAT WOULD HELP?

Any person found guilty of driving without tax/insurance/MOT or driving offence such as DUI banned for 5 years. This will also help reduce road congestion.
BLODY GOOD IDEA

Increase car ownership age to 21 and basic driving tests every 5 years once over 65 until 80 and yearly thereafter.
TEE HEE, NO CHANCE!

Large tax increase on third car per household of 2 adults.
BLOODY GOOD IDEA, I’D DO THE SAME ON 2ND HOMES.

Fire Brigade to be made up of UK forces personnel on true second line employment. Also enable personnel to be employed near home town. Cheaper than current system and no chance of strikes.
NOW I KNOW YOU’RE A NUTTER!

Life imprisonment for any politician found guilty of fraud/misleading parliament.
TEE HEE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maximum amount of lawyers per party standing as MPs. In order to get a more realistic spectrum of backgrounds into government.
NO IDEA WHAT YOU MEAN BY THIS?

[idle-centralise]

pr00ne, your real name isn't Alistair by any chance is it????

:E

[Green Meat]

Pr00ne

Require tangible medical evidence for claims of disability living allowance.

Hmm. Have you tried getting a genuinely ill person who has paid tax onto the DLA? Someone who hasn't been sponging off the system since they were in nappies? You may want to re-think some of your facile retorts.

:mad:

[pr00ne]

Green Meat,

Yes, it's one of the things I do for a living!

[Green Meat]

In that case I hope you're better at it for those who actually deserve it than the majority of people invovled in the system.

Neck marginally wound in, back to thread...

GM

[Lee Jung]

prOOne,

Thanks for the endorsement across most areas. I don't claim to be either a New Tory or Conservative (cheap shot I know) but believe a totally fresh approach is needed. Whether this is done by a current party showing an uncommon amount of bravery in trying to seek out new, realistic voters with a sense of fairness or by a new party doesn't matter to me.

A reviewed council tax paid for per head seems fair to everyone never mind those adult children who remain at home. Those on unemployment or pension credit have it waived anyway.

I voted New Labour in 1997 and Conservative last time. I truly believe that the current bunch have lost their way and become a little too comfortable cosseted in power. My adage would be the same as that in 1997, "It's time for a change".

I think you will find that the vast majority of those in politics have a legal* background. My argument would be that a broad background of experience and knowledge in a party, particularly in its elected representatives. I have to concede that by drafting legislation lawyers are needed, but not at the levels we have now. Professional politicians, grown through the system in the manner of US interns, should be sent out to gain experience in the real world.

*For the purposes of the argument ex - Trade Union Officials count as (barrack room) lawyers.

[16 blades]

Point of Information, Pr00ne -
Introduce a higher rate of income tax of 50% for all earners of £150,000pa and 60% for incomes of 250%. Reduce current higher rate to 30%.
BLOODY GOOD IDEA!
Why do you appear to support punitive taxation on high earners when in an earlier post:
You try paying 60% tax and then 90% over a certain sum, believe me it hurt.
...you were decrying it. Which is it to be? Punitive taxation will only lead to the best and brightest seeking work overseas, as happened in the 60's and became a major factor in the depression of the 70s.

Legislate so all private schools must take 10% of its intake made up of pupils from failing schools in order to break the poverty chain.
EXCELLENT IDEA!
Why should they? The biggest factor that makes a school 'fail' is the ill-disciplined, worthless little scrotes that get sent there. Why punish people who have worked hard to put their children through a decent education by inflicting yobbery on them? You cannot teach those who do not wish to learn, no matter how good the school is; a point proven by several 'experiments' on this very proposal. The best way of breaking the poverty chain is to allow bright and talented kids (as determined by a school's entrance exam, not by lefty politicians) from poor backgrounds to attend private schools, funded by the govt. This was done by the Tories, and benefitted many (myself included) until it was scrapped by Labour as soon as they came to power.

Make full unemployment benefit payable for only a limited period, then reducing with time.
ER, IT ALREADY IS!

Require tangible medical evidence for claims of disability living allowance.
ER, IT ALREADY IS!

ER, NO IT ISN'T! A family of 4 can live their entire lives on an equivalent income of around £24k pa without ever having to lift a finger, particularly if the adults claim they are "too depressed" to work, a claim for which no tangible and verifyable medical evidence is required whatsoever (apart from visiting a GP and telling him you are depressed).

Combine all special interest commission into one board, i.e. Racial, Disability,etc.
BLOODY GOOD IDEA!

Sadly, already done. The new body (EO commision? - can't remember its official title) will be unelected, unaccountable and answer to no-one. It will have the power to investigate and prosecute any body or individual without requiring authority from govt or the courts. The beginnings of a police state, except without the accountability and codes of conduct that govern the police. George Orwell must be turning in his grave.....

Introduce child care in all primary schools and remove all child benefits and child tax credits.
INTERESTING, WONDER IF THAT WOULD BE COST NEGATIVE?
Alternatively, how about restoring the tax incentives that encouraged one parent to stay at home and do their f***ing job, ie bring their OWN children up? Then maybe we wouldn't have little bastards roaming the streets at all hours causing mayhem, if they had someone to come home to and answer to!

Just my thoughts.....

16B

[Lee Jung]

16B,

My proposal was to decrease the current amount of income tax paid by most middle earners of 40% to 30% as more and more of the population have fallen into this band in the last 10 years.

I would then increase tax of the 'wealthy' and then increase again to those who could be termed rich, imo.

This seems fair to me, especially when coupled with binning CGT.

I cannot have kids so the idea of your proposal to re-introduce married 'man's' tax allowance is attractive, however I think the main thrust of getting mothers back into the work place is to pay for the ever increasing burden of an aging society, which is unavoidable. I do begrudge paying for these child tax credits when I will never benefit but I see that it is necessary. I do believe that state child care could work by simply being bolted on to existing primary schools, or even secondary schools. It might even get post-maternal teachers back into the classroom quicker.

Disruptive pupils tend to be from those families who could be considered caught in the poverty trap which perpetuates through generations. By sending small amounts to good schools, possibly sponsored by business and/or alumni may help break this poverty chain. Once it is broken for a generation I think it highly unlikely it would occur again.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

One thing they should do is put money into R & D alternative energy sources. Good from an enviromental point of view, good from an economic point of view (build/develop/export our own wind/wave etc systems - possibly offshore, instead of importing them) and reduces the dependence of the UK/West on Oil.

Also, interest free loans or low interest loans for inventors or innovators. There was programme on local TV recently on someone who has developed a prosthetic arm that gives the patient much better use of their fingers than existing one. This has involved Scientists and Engineers doing all sorts of work. Now they need to produce it in sufficient numbers and at an appropriate cost to make its use feasible. This needs investment to go from being R&D company to a manufacturing one. But it depends on private investors - surely the Government should help in this situation?

[Pontious]

Pr00ne

Quotes:

1)

"...more people than ever before are leaving the UK..." why on earth do you think this is happening? This mass exodus, this new brain drain?

2)

"...we need immigrants to replace the people who are leaving..."

NO WE F*****G DON'T!! WE NEED TO KEEP THESE PROFESSIONALS AND THEIR SERVICES THAT WERE BOUGHT AND PAID FOR BY THE UK TAXPAYER WHO ARE NOW LEAVING THIS COUNTRY IN DROVES BECAUSE OF THE FOLLOWING F**K UPS BY THIS F*****G (lack of) GOVERNMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A) INCREASING TAXATION.

B) LACK OF LAW AND ORDER AND DETERRENT SENTENCING.

C) LACK OF TRUST AND ACCOUNTABILITY FROM GOVERNMENT.

D) SURRENDERING OF OUR INDEPENDENCE TO EUROPE.

E) SPIN, BULLSH1T & QANGOS.

F) CONTRIDICTING STANCE ON TERRORISM INTERNATIONALLY AND DOMESTICALLY - I.E. FIGHTING AL QAEDA, APPEASING THE I.R.A.

G) THE MOTHER OF ALL F**K UPS THAT IS THE "GOVERNMENTS IMMIGRATION POLICY".

H) THEIR LACK OF ABILITY TO HOLD THEIR HAND UP AND ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY WHEN THINGS GO WRONG INSTEAD OF RELYING ON THAT OLD CHESTNUT "THE TORIES! THE TORIES...!!!"

I) TONY BLIARS (or any Labour luvvie, Looney leftie officiado) INABILITY TO GIVE A STRAIGHT ANSWER TO A STRAIGHT QUESTION.

AND LOTS, LOTS MORE.!!!!!!

The Armys' of Professionals leaving these shores feel let down, dis-enfranchised and like second class citizens in our own country. Let down by someone who we thought was worthy of our trust and has let us down badly. These traditional 40% tax bracket earners are really pi55ed off.

I should know, I became an ex-pat after giving this government 5 years to get its sh1t together. I bailed out after seeing my beloved country sliding towards the abyss. I had to pass an HIV, TB and HEP A,B and C check to gain a work and residency visa to get in here (the UAE) as does everybody and we don't f*****g complain, its just another hoop to jump through. Labour Loonie Luvvies and Lilly Livered Liberals have buggered up the UK beyond belief and to the Aussies, Kiwis, Zimbo's, Boks and Cannucks I work with, the UK is a laughing stock. I take a little consolation in the bleetings from the Eurogees who say that ALL of Europe is the same- High tax, crap service.



:ok:

[16 blades]

My proposal was to decrease the current amount of income tax paid by most middle earners of 40% to 30% as more and more of the population have fallen into this band in the last 10 years.
This is entirely due to this govt's refusal to move the income tax thresholds in line with wage inflation. The UEL is now not very far fom the national average wage.

I would then increase tax of the 'wealthy' and then increase again to those who could be termed rich, imo
Again, I ask: WHY? Why should the 'wealthy' be subjected to punitive taxation? Is earning this amount of money somehow a crime? Why should hard work and enterprise be punished?

Disruptive pupils tend to be from those families who could be considered caught in the poverty trap
Horsesh1t! Poverty does not cause anti-social behaviour. There are 4 billion poor people in the world - they are not all anti-social scrotes. There has been an astronomic rise recently of 'middle class delinquency' (just watch programmes like 'brat camp' to see what I mean), due mainly to 2 factors: a) The spread of 'progressive' parenting, where discipline in the home is discouraged, and b)Mothers going back to work as soon as the child is out of the womb, dumping the kids on childminders and any institution that will take them. Anti-social behaviour can be found in all socio-economic groups; it has cock-all to do with how much money you have. Being 'poor' is NEVER an excuse for bad behaviour - proper discipline and manners cost NOTHING!

I am all for offering places in good schools to poorer kids, but there is no point in giving an opportunity to someone who either cannot, or will not, make use of it. Places should be given to poorer kids who can show that they have the ability and the motivation to make something of themselves, not just because they are 'poor'.
Once it is broken for a generation I think it highly unlikely it would occur again.
I agree with this, and there are proven ways of breaking the poverty chain. I have benefitted from a number of them, namely:

1. Assited places at private schools for capable youngsters who cannot afford it.

2. Giving council tenants the right to buy their home, allowing them to see some benefit from the money they would have spent on rent.

My parents did this, and now live quite comfortably in a very nice property, despite my father only ever earning a very modest wage. Both these policies were designed to allow people at the bottom of the socio-economic scale to make something of themselves under their own efforts, and free them from dependence on local authorities. It is interesting to note that:

Point 1 - a TORY policy, abolished by Labour the minute they took power.

Point 2 - a TORY policy, now severely restricted by Labour.

Labour do not want people at the bottom of the pile to be freed from dependence, since this would erode their core support. They would rather attack those higher up the scale, bringing everyone down to the lowest common denominator in the name of 'equality'. Were it not for the above-mentioned TORY policies, I and my family would not be where we are today. Think about that.

16B

[Argus]

16 blades

Like many of the direct grant grammar schools, shamelessly wound up by Labour Councils, intent on forcing a regression to educational mediocrity.

[McAero]

I just wonder how many people on here didn't use their democratic right to cast a vote, yet seem to think they have the right to an opinion..........just a thought.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Mc...................get real:rolleyes:

Less that 50k crabs world wide and we are supposed to somehow shape the form of the next government:yuk:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[pr00ne]

Pontius,

Ah, I see you are ranting and raving about the UK from afar? I was confused by your profile stating you were in Manchester?

You do seem rather confused, on the one hand claiming that we desparately need to retain the services of professionals in the UK yet on the other hand claiming that you are now living in the UAE?

I wouldn’t exactly claim we are suffering a brain drain, a very large proportion of those who leave the UK are fairly recent immigrants, a large percentage of those who leave are very blue collar, especially those fleeing to the sun.

As to your quote of “The armys of professionals leaving these shores………….”
I think that is a situation you fervently wish was true to back up how you feel about the UK.
Aussies, Kiwis, Zimbos, Boks and Canucks really think the UK is a laughing stock do they? Really?

Then how come there are SO many of them already here in the UK and literally thousands more applying? There are numerous “professionals” from those nations in my line of work, all over here for the challenges and buzz of a really dynamic economy and truly eclectic environment. They enjoy being a part of the world’s 4th largest economy and one of the fastest growing on the planet that provides them with so much more than their own nations can.

Hope life in the UAE is pleasant for you, democracy is obviously not a factor in deciding where you live.
That open and accountable regime must be such a refreshing change from Blair and the UK.

[BEagle]

Objection!!

Blatant apostrophic abuse in the Lefty Luvvie's post!

Ipse facto, his observations are nihil ad rem.











:rolleyes:

[stiknruda]

Beags

It is ipso facto

ipse refers to the individual whereas ipso refers to the act itself.

Off now to find some more centurions wandering around here to chat to.


Stik

[pr00ne]

BEagle,

Amended to please right wing ranting Daily mail reading old fart who is almost as annoying as Legal secretaries who catch me out on exactly the same thing!

[BEagle]

Oh bolleaux...I meant to type 'ipso' but the ageing digits porked up!

And (yes, nowadays I am allowed to start sentences with conjunctions now that I don't have to bother with Defence Writing kiddy-speak), it's:

Daily Mail

and

legal secretaries.

His verbis dictis, autem................

:p

[pr00ne]

BEagle,

Hhhmm..............

Is your REAL name Carole?

[woptb]

Been 'away' for a while but would like to thank Pontious for his "member of the Labour looney left jibe".
Blimp is dead long live Blimp!
Amateur Daily Mail leader writer in why oh why Looney Lefty Red Ken King Arthur Blairite Mandy Milburn hang 'em & flog 'em tax & spend fox hunting brain drain Johnny foreigner no surrender anecdotal shocker!

[Roland Pulfrew]

woptb

Welcome back. I've missed your incoherent nonsensicle rambles and that last one must be one of your best!!!:p

[woptb]

Ta Roland ,nice to be missed. Always have been a dedicated follower of fashion! Can't beat a bit of pointless virtual bickering & name calling over luncheon!

[Pontious]

Pr00ne...Pr00ne...Pr00ne...
There! You see it is possible to spell someones name correctly with a little thought and concentration. Anyway back to the battle. Please allow me to clarify the statements of my earlier post.

Re "From Manchester"- I am indeed Northern English born and bred and fiercely proud of it, mate.

Re "The army of professionals" to which I was referring are the Doctors, Scientists, Lawyers, Teachers, Engineers and Nurses leaving to start new lives in new countries. Their Degrees and other Qualifications were paid for directly or indirectly by the State so that they may benefit the Nation as a whole. Indeed I am a professional, however, I received no state funding for my professional qualifications as there are no state sponsored colleges for Airline Pilots in this country, Maritime Colleges-yes, but not for Aircrew. I finished paying off my £50K+ 'Student Loan' 5 years ago.

Re "The numbers of people leaving the UK..." the increase in people leaving the UK for outside the EU has increased year on year since 1999. Those are HMG's figures, not mine and I dispute your claim of the majority being 'Blue collars moving to the sun'. The countries they are moving to have the 'Points' system of entry, you know, like the one the Tories are proposing.

Re "We are a laughing stock in the eyes of the Aussies, Kiwis, Boks...et al" To quote a colleague of mine from the southern hemisphere...
"...Man, the UK is a good country screwed, hell even Mugabe could take lessons from Blair when it comes to screwing a country over..." He is from Zimbabwe, born there to an English father and a Dutch mother with Grandparents still living in Scotland, his Grandfather serving in WW2. Most of the ex-pats here from SA or ZIM know they will never return to their homelands and their wishlist for 'new' home countries in preferential order is Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Europe, the US then the UK. these are citizens of COMMONWEALTH countries for christ sake. HMG won't grant my friend a Passport, but the Dutch will! Yet Iqbal from Afghanistan, Drako from Albania, Ivan from Latvia or Spiro from Greece are all welcomed with open arms!! And you can defend this???

Re "You live in a regime..." Yes I do but in order to reside here I had to have numerous medical screening checks for HIV, Heps A,B & C, and Tubercolousis, Criminal Conviction/Charge checks and a whole host of background digging in order to be accepted for a Residency Visa. If my wife wants to have a child here, she will receive no State medical help and once I retire, my residency visa is cancelled and I have to return to the UK or EU. These are standard criteria for the majority of countries. These criteria are wholly unacceptable to the "Human Rights-ists", the bleeding heart and lilly livered Liberals and the Government who've buggered up this country. And you call the UK "Open and Accountable?" I suggest you look up the OED's definition of 'Accountable'

Now is there anything else you would like to discuss?

Woptb

I wouldn't wipe my a**e on the Mail even if we could get it out here. My news sources are BBC World, SkyNews and CNN International plus the local English speaking news channels oh, and either the Torygraph, Times, Indie, Private Eye and Spectator on my monthly visits to the UK. So GFY and as an example of the 'Looney Left' Old Red Ken has the non UK Nationals in stitches over here. They think he is a comedian.

Vote Conservative- you know it makes sense!




:ok: