HKAOA & ASL

[endo]

Why don't the AOA allow the remaining ASL crew (including the 30 ex-CX FE's) to join?

I hear there is at least 150 that would be supporting the CC vote.

Lets not forget the AOA agreed to CX recruiting these people in the first place - why not get them onside now?


------------------
- in motion

[Iago]

Endo,
One ASL member has applied to the AOA for membership, but had it rejected as ASL is not on the charter of companies that the AOA is allowed to accept members from. This charter is apparently laid down by the Labour Dept. Anyway he has now taken the matter to the Labour Dept. in the hope that they will amend the AOA charter or eligible companies to include ASL.
As for ASL supporting CC, all they would be able to do is provide moral support, as their contract is a little different to CX, and any industrial action or perceived industrial action could have their contract terminated asp without recourse.
You are right about the number who would like to join the AOA, perhaps if someone were to propose accepting ASL as members at a GM or EGM, and another to second the motion, it may get the ball rolling.
Merry Xmas

[Darling]

Endo
"Why don't the AOA allow the remaining ASL crew (including the 30 ex-CX FE's) to join?"

On the first of Jan 2000, all ASL PILOTS had to make a choice. That choice was to either stay doing what they were doing or join the CX seniority list. Either option had advantages and disadvantages and they all made their choice.

Life is full of choices - some you make good decisions, some bad. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I would not support any ASL person who wanted to change back unless they come to the CX seniority list (And I would not support that - we all made our choice), and at the bottom of where the list at the time. Why, because IF they are in ASL and the HKAOA, there is a conflict of interest, and the AOA would not support or be able to support any views of a sub-company of CX that the the HKAOA does not support and has spent so much time and effort trying to get rid of after screwing it up in the first place.

I would support the FE's coming across and we need to give them the same opportunity as the pilots were given.

"I hear there is at least 150 that would be supporting the CC vote."

There was exactly 50% of those eligible to transfer across that did - 98, and 98 stayed behing (there were a couple of extra guys that were not eligible). And it was an equal split FO's and Capt.

"Lets not forget the AOA agreed to CX recruiting these people in the first place...?"

Initially yes, now not quite. June 1999, last years little event, was where the HKAOA made one bit of significant ground in that CX agreed to not hire any more pilots into ASL and thence ASL will eventually cease to exist. And maybe this is why the ASL pilots now want to come across. They were given the good and bad of both options last year before they had to make the choice.

Iago,

As a result of the last two weeks and the agreement that was reached, the freighter pilots probably got the best deal - they got a much better form of Rostering Pactices, that is they actually got ONE.

Remember that HKAOA means the you the membership.

I know alot of the above is not in the spirit of Christmas and all, but the HKAOA has fought very hard to get where it has with this issue and needs to avoid deviding its membership as CX has been doing for so many years.

Have a good Christmas & New Year everyone.

[Iago]

Darling,
You would not support ASL joining the AOA, because it would be a conflict of interests? I suppose A scale, B scale, umpteen different pay scales, Air Hong Kong, and Veta Freighters is not a conflict of interests. I also believe that Dragonair can join the AOA, is that a conflict of interests? Allow the opposition to be members, but not the guys who are working for the same company, oh and by the way, Veta is not CX, it is a shelf company just like ASL. This is not about CX membership, it is about common interests.
It is closed minds such as yours that will keep the pilot work force divided and uncohesive, the managment must love you, line-up outside the DFO's office for your award of the triple oak leaf cluster with hershey bar.
It is difficult making forward progress while you are looking backwards.

[HKer]

Hey, Iago, you had your choice a year ago. If you passed up on it - tough luck. That was YOUR choice and unfortunately that is the way it will stay.

[BusyB]

Well, Christmas is a time for CHILDREN after all!!

[coanda]

Veta is indeed a 'shell' company just the same as USAB is, the same as ASL is. All three; ASL, VETA, & USAB are 100% owned subsidiary companies of Cathay Pacific Ltd.

We should allow any Hong Kong employed crew member to join the HKAOA. - After all, the larger the membership, the better for all concerned.

HKAOA would not have a conflict of interest with CX, ASL, VETA or USAB. All employ aircrew who need a voice to represent their views.

By the way - it's Christmas day in India - Merry Christmas to all. :-)


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[Compliant One]

Unfortunately, Iago, you have the wrong end of the stick. Dragonair can only join DPA (Dragonair Pilot's Association). Both DPA and HKAOA are members of HKALPA which is a blanket organisation that is affiliated to IFALPA.
Separate entities entirely.

Choice of employer was given to all ASL pilots less than a year ago and now, having made your choice, you want to change the rules.

HKAOA never supported the formation of ASL and were against it always. It is now a dying company and will cease to exist soon.

It would be hard to claim that you were anything but aware of the situation when joining ASL. HKAOA couldn't and wouldn't stop you from joining a legally formed company. Now, we don't have to accept you into the fold.

Sleep bed your made you've now it. (Old Christmas puzzle!)

Compo

[Darling]

Compliant One - thank you.

Iago - I hope you have become a little educated.

"I suppose A scale, B scale, umpteen different pay scales, Air Hong Kong, and Veta Freighters is not a conflict of interests."

Completely agree with you. And that is why we must work together to get rid of them all and back, I say again - BACK, to ONE pay scale, ONE set of rostering practices and ONE set of Conditions of Service. 1 Jan 2000 was the first day of the demise of ASL and that's the way it should stay.


"Dragonair can join the AOA, is that a conflict of interests?"

Complinant One answered this for me, but it is interesting to note that the HKAOA finance HKALPA.

"This is not about CX membership, it is about common interests."

Sounds like you want to keep it that way.

"...the managment must love you..."

Oh believe you me, if only you knew. The only reason I line up outside any management office is for tea and sticky buns with my hat - and without the tea and sticky buns!

"It is difficult making forward progress while you are looking backwards."

Mirror required.

Thank you all concerned for a wonderful Christmas day

[ASLr]

Compliant One, at last years dog and pony show, I thought Ted Plevin said in his presentation that the AOA took no stance regarding ASL when it was formed. Am I confused or did TP mis-speak? Could have been playing to his audience, I suppose.

[Liam Gallagher]

The point Endo makes is a valid one and is aimed at promoting unity amongst the "Cathay aircrew", in its widest sense. There is no suggestion of a second window of opportunity for the ASL guys to join the CX list.

It has always been the case that an element of the good work that the AOA does in representing the Cathay aircrew spills over onto ASL, (FTLs, CoS etc) Whether you intended it or not the AOA is now representing the ASL guys to a much greater extent. No better example can be the forthcoming pay negotations.

Officially, the company's position on Freighter pay is that it should reflect market forces and to that end the company monitors the pay offered by our Freight competitors. Equally, Integration was in the company's eyes a no-cost option. In reality however, CXF competes in the market place for pilots against all airlines, not just Freight carriers. CXF are experiencing very real problems, particularly in the US, in both recruiting and retaining pilots. Further in the UK, Dragonair are looking to recruit Classic qualified guys for their Classic Freighters and are offering about 10% over Cathay Freight pay. The company are also alive to the very real prospect that come the second half of 2001 a mass exodus shall occur off the freighters to the pax fleet, as the Veta (ASL signees) hit the required seniority number.

Unoffically, the company is starting to acknowledge that pressures exist to move the Freighter pay upwards. They are also saying that they want one single pay scale for all Freighter pilots, ASl and Veta. In about 2 weeks the negotiations start, and where they lead is anyone's guess, however, consider these questions;

1. Given the extant relationship between the company and the AOA should the AOA even sit down with the company at all?

2. Should the AOA negotiate for the Freighter pay to come in line with B Scales?

3. Assuming that you answered Yes to questions 1 and 2 above, if the company agreed to B scales but stipulated that in return they wanted to be able to roster the Veta Freight guys (not ASL) on the pax fleet; what would your reaction be?

I readily accept that the above is fanciful, but as we know, once negotaitions start ( assumming that they do?) it is very difficult to predict where they may lead.

Here's hoping for a harmonious new year

Liam G.

[Midnight Rambler]

What you say is interesting and valid, Mr. G. Another apect of this integration and the possibilty of equal pay between CXF and pax, whether it is B-scales or an eventually unified scale, is what happens about the guys who have obtained upgrades on the basis of CXF being a "junior fleet"? All of a sudden they are simply guys who took commands/JFO upgrades out of seniority.

A harmonius New Year to us all.

[BUSDRVR]

This is about ASL joining the AOA, not pay and conditions.

Here are some points to consider:

How many more ASL will come if the offer to joing the AOA, goes with the negotiated offer between the company and the AOA to join at the bottom of the seniority list?

The extra 1% would be nice in the AOA coffers and get everybody on side but how many in avaiation would love to have the benefit of hindsight?

[Liam Gallagher]

Busdrvr,

I think there are a number of issues which are linked, but nonetheless separate, and at times these separate issues become blurred.

On 1 Jan 2000, all the pilots under the age of 55 employed by ASL were given the opportunity to join Veta. They joined at the bottom of the CX seniority list. As employees of Veta, they met the AOA's requirements to apply for membership and the majority of guys who applied were accepted.

A lot has happened in the past 12 months. All new joiners, of which there have been many, joined Veta directly on base. About 12 or so mainline Fo's are now CN's with CXF/Air HK, and as the number of ASL FO's decline more mainline Fo's will receive command upgrades on the Freighter. In short, the majority of the Freighter pilots are employed by Veta.

Endo raised the point about the AOA opening its membership to the ASl employees. A number of replies came back which appeared to interpret this as a second window of opportunity. This is not so. A second window of opportunity would have to involve the agreement of the company, and given that the vast majority of guys who remained in ASl did so because they wish to remain flying to age 60, I do not think the company or AOA want to go down that route at the moment.

My post, which you have blandly dismissed, as another pay and conditions post, dealt with an issue that I imagine many of you are unaware of. ASL employees shall receive a renumeration package negotiated by the AOA. Further, the company appears to be losing interest in differentiating between ASL/Veta (except on pensions!) and I can see the company in the very the near future putting a very substantial pay increase on the table, but in return they will want the ability to roster Freighter guys on pax aircraft. Moreover, should the AOA pre-empt this and make the offer first,- debate is needed I think.

We then go full circle. If ASl guys are going to have the AOA negotiating on their behalf,(in terms of pay, CoS, FTLs) should the AOA not open its membership to them and take the 1% and if necessary enforce CC upon them? It has been quoted before, but worth repeating;
"We all may have arrived in different ships: but we are all in the same boat now."

[10sne1]

ASL pilots receive a package negotiated by the AOA only because there are CXF pilots working for VETA/USAB and THEY have AOA representation. The frtr FOs that chose not to join the CX list for upgrade reasons and the captains over 55 will just stay where the are until nobody cares or they just go away. Anything the AOA negotiates has to be accepted by the membership. I think the seven or eight hundred FOs and SOs on the pax side will still have a problem sitting beside a Captain who is hundreds of numbers and years junior to him on the seniority list. A vote on this issue would not carry, simple numbers. It would be a waste of everyone's time to even start talking about us all becoming one big f#*@ed up family.

[SteamDriven]

No one seems to mind sitting next to me so far and at the end of the day all they have to do is say no!

[Liam Gallagher]

10sne1,

You say, "a vote on this issue would not carry, simple numbers".

I do not understand what issue you are refering to? This thread is about AOA membership for ASL employees and/or an amendment to our CoS to allow Veta pilots to operate any CX aircraft so long as they are paid pax salaries (A or B Scale). It is not about a further and total integration of the remaining ASL employees.

[10sne1]

LG; I was commenting on your remarks about frtr pilots being rostered to operate pax ac. This would be out of seniority. If I was asked to vote on whether to allow CX to integrate the pax and frtr crew such that I would be required to operate with a captain 3 or 4 years junior to me (I'm an FO) I would vote NO. Most of the people I joined with would vote the same. I would also vote no on any issue that gave a pay rise or any other improvements to ASL/CXF COS, again if I was asked to vote. If frtr pilots want to fly pax ac for pax salary and COS then there is plenty of room at the bottom of the list. I would think that if we are to integrate the crews then the only way I, and many of my colleagues, would be able to accept such a plan is if all pilots operate in the seat that their seniority number will hold. Unfortunately that puts qualified captians back to SO and I can't see the company doing that. Basically there are a lot of pilots in this company that were significantly disadvantaged by this whole cock up and we aren't willing to give away any more of what little career we have left. The way I understood it there is already an ASL Pilot's Association and they are part of HKALPA, as are the Dragon Air pilots, isn't that enough representation for you?

[Iago]

I am really impressed at the number of you guys who are so against the concept of ASL, but are working so vociferously to ensure it's continued existence and longevity. The last ASL member will retire [ at age 60 ] sometime in 2030, "Ouch", that is a long time to live with a thorn in your side. However I don't think the company is planning for that to be the case. For the last year they have been quietly de-identifying the ASL crews, CX uniforms, moving their mailboxes into the common mail room. If you are concerned about the company using ASL in some form of out of seniority manner, what better way to prevent it than allow ASL to join the AOA so they have some industrial protection against exploitation, which will harm your careers.
As has alraedy been stated ASL will benefit from the AOA salary negotiations, why not let them contribute to that effort by becoming members.
Concern has been expressed about freighter captains operating pax aircraft out of seniority. I believe the CX F/O's who have taken early commands on the freighters, are not permitted to bid back to the pax fleet until their seniority permits. I think this is an excellent idea that the AOA should enforce rigidly, in order to protect guys careers.
There has been a bit of vitriolic rhetoric about a second window of opportunity for ASL to join Veta, so what? Should the AOA, ASL, and the company be able to find common ground for this to happen, would'nt this finally get rid of this pain in the side called ASL, rather than waiting thirty years for it to happen. The ASL joiners would be bottom of the seniority list, and remain on freighters until they were senior enough to bid across to the pax fleet. Surely this is in everyones interest. Come on guys, don't lose sight of what you really want to achieve.
Apologies for stuffing up that bit about Dragonair and the AOA. Just shows that if ASL were allowed to join the AOA, we would have better informed aircrew.

[Liam Gallagher]

10sne1,

You say,"if we are to integrate the crews"; you appear to be behind the times. The AOA overwhelmingly voted to integrated the crews a year ago and it is happening, no "if" about it.

I am employed by Veta, and accepted my number at the bottom of the list on 1st Jan 2000. Most of the pilots on the Freighter are employed by Veta; some are senior to the majority of AOA members I would expect. I am sure that they would join with me and be astounded that you would vote against any action that may lead to a pay rise for them, solely because you harbour some ill-informed prejudices against Freighter pilots; Thanks mate, bodes well for CX pilot unity!

However, I suspect that your somewhat jaundiced view may not be shared by your colleagues. Consider this:

I estimate about 30% of all basings occur on the Freighter. So there's a good chance that if you or your colleagues want to go on base someday, you will be offered a Freighter basing. Will you want freighter pay or B Scale when you go on base? If you think you'll be happy with Freighter pay then keep your head in the sand.

As I posted previously, the freighter pay is receiving upward pressure from the market place. My personal view, fanciful perhaps, is that should the Company be offered the chance to cross roster Veta pilots from the Freighter to the pax aircraft, they may be prepared to abolish the Freighter pay scales now. I would have thought anything that gets rid of a pay scale lower than yours, that you may one day fall to, is worth some form of sacrifice. That sacrifice would be, on occasion, having to operate with one of the 40 or so CNs who signed across from ASL. In reality it would only apply to the 744 and would be nothing new as it has been happening all year on the 400F and on the 400 pax when some of the former ASL CNs trained on the 400.

Finally, the last sentence of your post doesn't apply to me as I am Veta and AOA membership is available to me. However, I would have thought a unified union membership of all those who operate CX aircraft is preferable to a factionalised one.
Liam G.

[Healey]

'I estimate about 30% of all basings occur on the Freighter'

Hmmmmm, so that's where mine went!

[The Resistance]

Iago, your comment '....allow ASL to join the AOA so they have some industrial protection against exploitation , WHICH WILL HARM YOUR (OUR) CAREERS....!!!' You are joking aren't you mate...??? ASL has ALREADY harmed my career, to a degree that is unprecedented in the industry. It can't do any more harm to me than it already has (5 year delay to my command, for which I will NEVER forgive the management for). The only way to assure the eventual demise of this ill-considered and chaotic scheme is to ensure that we don't make it easy for the company to deal with the situation. I feel it was an error on the part of the AOA to have offered ANY integration, and I certainly will NEVER accept flying with an ASL Captain (...let's see, they got their 4 stripes after base training....where CX Captains only get their after the whole Command course is complete.....I guess the ASL captains are just that much better...!!). The simple fact of the matter is that there is an ENORMOUS amount of hostility and resentment built up within the mainline pilots towards the ASL pilots, and I can assure you that the feelings will NEVER FADE AWAY. I certainly have not the slightest intention of having anything to do with those of you who chose not to join the AOA last year. As for the ASL captains out of seniority.....do you really expect to be accepted as an 'equal' by any of us who joined this airline with the understanding that we waited our turn......as is the case in REAL airlines the world over....? I am sick of the whole subject, and the continuing rationalisations of those who wish to undermine the very career that I was promised by a management who is truly morally bankrupt.

[Iago]

Resistance, you truly are a masochist. If you care to take your blinkers off for a few minutes and take a look at the big picture, you will see that the proposal I put forward in my previous posting is the best way to get rid of ASL for good, and to allow the AOA the control they need to prevent abuses of the system in the future. However if you wish to have ASL around for the next thirty years as a constant reminder that you did'nt have the balls to stand up to managment in the first place, so be it.

"There is a tremendous amount of resentment against the ASL pilots". I thought that it was the concept of ASL that everyone was against, not the individuals. However if you want to get down and dirty, I can go there too. Lets look at the facts and not just the emotion. Not one ASL member crossed a picket line [ I know, I checked before applying ], not one direct entry ASL captain took anybody's command. Outside employment was only offered when those suitably qualified mainline officers chose not to accept the command positions offered [ don't blame them at all, I would have done the same thing in their position ]. However the reality is, that had those suitably qualified officers accepted those command slots, there would have been no direct entry comands, and every other F/O and S/O would not have had their upgrades delayed by several years. Now you may not find that very palatable, but it is the truth. You can't change history, it's set in stone, but you can influence the future, and that was what my previous proposal was all about.

[The Resistance]

Iago....perhaps you would care to read my post a bit more carefully before replying. If you care to peruse what I wrote, you will see that nowhere did I state that an ASL pilot was a 'scab' (ie: someone who crossed a picket line). All I was saying is that there are some VERY strong feelings and emotions. They are not going to go away, no matter how much you wish they would. I don't per-se have a problem with those ASL pilots who joined the AOA and the CX seniority list. The exception to that statement is those pilots who are currently flying as captains, who are JUNIOR to FO's int this company. That is not considered acceptable in ANY proper seniority airline. I will be damned if I will just roll over and allow this to be a fait-accomplie, and to accept them as legitimate. To make it easy on the company, and easy on the individuals concerned only ENCOURAGES this company and others to look for other ways of undermining our careers. I can guarantee you that ASL (and those pilots still employed by her) will not last 5 more years, more less 30....! Regardless of your ideas about 'sensible' approaches to the problem, there is not a single one of us who joined the 'old' CX that will EVER accept what was done, and it's results. I can certainly assure you that none of us will EVER accept flying with a captain who is wearing those stripes out of seniority, and who is illegitimate in the eyes of 1200 CX pilots. Whether or not you like that reality is really of no consequence to me. Your ideas will lead to more of the same.....not less. In closing, I state for the record once again......ASL was dying, and the AOA should have not made ANY offer to integrate. They should have told the company, "you made it, you live with it".....and it would have surely died. Now we have the most screwed up airline in the history of this industry, with policies, conditions and ineficiencies that will be used as a case study of 'failure' at business schools for years to come. Incidentally, I suggest you be very careful stating that the ASL captains 'didn't take anyone's command'. It is a statement that is offensive in the extreme to many long-serving FO's in this company.

[absolut KUK]

ASL employees who did not sign across to Mainline and AOA are the loosers and will see it when they get screwed by Management... just look at the new freighter reserve as a retaliation for Contract Compliance (by the guys who were smart enough to sign across). Is management thanking you by assigning reserve coverage to all because some (AOA members did not answer their phones).

Don't forget that one of the bosses at ASL classic fleet stole a propeller from the Aviation club, what other than G-Days will he steal from you???

[Compliant One]

There seems to be a distinct lack of appreciation of the situation under which ASL was formed amongst many of the correspondents in this forum.

The formation of ASL was solely at the expense of the existing pilots on the, then, integrated seniority list. There was no difference between the freighter and the pax fleets. If you flew the Classic then you flew pax and Freighters without any discimination.

Cathay decided to expand the freighter side after AHK proved how profitable freight was ex HKG and CX had to purchase the company to stop the competition.

As a result of the splitting-off and downgrading of the freighter jobs, senior F/Os had to wait considerably longer for their command courses because the Command slots had effectively been taken away and formed into a separate company - ASL. The jobs were already there - they were not created by the formation of ASL.

If ASL had not been formed then ALL the commands in the freighter companies (as well as all the bases)would still be in mainline seniority.

I bear no malice against those individuals who decided to come to CXF/ASL and take an offered position. A job is a job. I feel pretty sure that all of them were aware of the industrial situation at the time. The only thing that bothers me is the attempt (after so few years) to bypass their fellow pilots to advance their own position. It was made perfectly clear to you all at the time by the company that you would only ever fly boxes.

The possibility of flying PAX when you have the seniority is a major concession by the pilots of "mainline" but this doesn't seem to be enough.

Whatever you do, remember that the company loves a divided workforce. We are divided by CoS and by seniority lists at the moment. The AOA managed to get you a big win with the rostering practices (ie you now have some AND they are the same as pax/mainline).

Time to be grateful and not to rock the boat, one would think. "If we keep quiet, we may get some more wins on the coat tails of the mainline guys. We certainly don't want to p**s them off."

Compo

[Healey]

Like it or not all current and future freighter basings,commands and f/o positions rightfully belong to those of us employed by cx prior to the formation of ASL. Until this situation is rectified I can't see how, even with the best intentions, that we can enjoy a harmonious working relationship.

[This message has been edited by Healey (edited 29 December 2000).]

[Liam Gallagher]

Compliant One. What you say is generally the history as told to me when I joined ASL. Clearly, we were all mindful of stealing guys jobs, so I am troubled by the phrase, "If ASL had not been formed then all the Freighter Companies would still be mainline seniority" Firstly, I think any employee of ASL who was previously employed by Air Hong Kong would take exception to what you say. Secondly, mangement was unswerving in their view that had the cost base not been reduced by inter alia the formation of ASL, Cathay would have sub-contacted the Freighters to another company and the crew positions would have been lost in any event. Now I don't expect for one second you believe that, but do you have evidence any contrary?

Compliant One, what is, "the attempt to by-pass their fellow pilots."?

Absolut Kuk; You seem to be suggesting that the Chief pilot is changing our G days into Reserve Days. The Chief pilot is, I believe, a Cathay employee, and has very little to do with rostering. What has changed is that our O days are being replaced with Reserve. Presently, it's not too arduous as we can do reserve from the end of the phone anywhere in the world and only for a set time period and not the whole day as under the O day system. Further, it avoids the nasty situation of having your card marked by management for not answering your phone on an O day and having your house burnt down by the AOA if you do.

Resistance, you say," I can certainly assure you that none of us will EVER accept flying with a Captain who is wearing those stripes out of seniority, and who is illegimate in the eyes of 1200 Cx pilots." Your assurance is a bit hollow when I exclude from the "none";

1. Those FOs who volunteered for a CXF temp base in LON, and
2. All those FOs and SOs who regularly fly with ASL and ex-ASL CNs on the 400F, and
3. The dozen on so FOs who received command upgrade training on the Freighter from ASL and ex-ASL trainers, and
4. The long queue of FOs outside DR's door lodging applications for a Freighter Command on base, and,
5. All the guys and gals who sat next to ex-ASL CNs who received conversion training on the 400 pax aircraft.

Healey, you can think what you like mate, but both the Company and the AOA say my FO position on base is rightfully mine and I have a CX seniority number and a CoS to prove it.

To us all, this may be a jolly fine waste of a few moments before crew-in, however on the Cargo Flight line in HKG is a Southern Air 747F on a long Wet Lease to fly Cathay Scheduled Freight services. That lease represents 8 base Commands and 8 JFO upgrades and 8 ex-CX FEs that were not re-employed. What did we say about it, what pressure did we put upon the company to make it a dry lease?- nothing!

[Healey]

We obviously disagree on the meaning of the word 'rightfully'!

[coanda]

This whole thread seems to have gotten out of hand!

The issue was quite simple.............The pilots in ASL had the chance to join CX in December of 1999 on VETA Cos.

Some took the opportunity and some did not. The decision was taken based on information available at that time. - nothing has changed since then.

This thread raised the issue of whether the AOA should allow the remaning ASL crew, membership of the AOA.

These guys are not looking for a way to join CX - they could have done that a year ago!What they want - and need, is the voice of the AOA.

Nigel has just said in the latest BTL that he is not happy with many guys in CX piggy-backing on the AOA when they do not contribute to the funds of the association. For example the few that will be receiving by-pass pay because of the extended Captains.

Every time the AOA discuss anything with the company regarding the freighter Cos or pay or leave or anything, the ASL guys will benefit. CX have an open policy on CRM - how can you have a crew on differing conditions?

All that endo was trying to say, I think, is that if the AOA are directly ot indirectly helping the ASL crew, they should be asked to contribute to the AOA funds.

This of course would mean membership of the HKAOA by ASL crew - something that I would not be against.

Lets get real and get a membership pack out to every ASL crew member tomorrow. Let's not forget hat most of the FE's in ASL were once employed here in CX. They were dumped on big-time when the classic was put to bed. Now is the time to make it up to these ex-members.

safe flying.

Coanda. - Effective aerodynamics.

[Liam Gallagher]

Healey,

Rightful; held by virtue of a legal or just claim.

I have got a piece of paper with my name on the top and and the Veta CoS below, and I have done the CX FO course. I took my number at the bottom of the CX seniority list as sanctioned by some 95% of the AOA membership. I say that's a legal and just claim: what say you?

Liam G.

[SteamDriven]

I would be interested to know exactly what it is I should be gratefull for.

The offer of employment with CX was made following a vote by the same 1200 aircrew who apparently hate the very sight of me and who now expect me to comply with my contract(which I do)so that an attempt can be made to improve conditions for everyone except myself!

I am expected to keep quite and be satisfied with any morcel of improvemnt that may be achieved by hanging onto the coat tails of the aircrew body and should the AOA dare to negotiate me a higher pay scale then my fellow AOA members will happily vote against it.

What a crock of S@"T!

As you have been so generous in making concessions to allow me to join your company and get a command when I have the appropriate seniority, I must remember to add you to next year's Christmas card list.

ASL would have survived as long as the CX cargo fleet, with or without your approval, and most of us were very happy with the way things were. We did not ask to join CX, you asked us. If the possibility of flying with us was more than you could bear then you should have voted NO!

While on the subject of freighter crewing, the integration seems to be going rather well with mixed flight decks on almost every flight. It is quite amazing how CX crew always stand on the moral high ground until it suits their personal circumstances to look the other way.

United we fall!

[This message has been edited by SteamDriven (edited 29 December 2000).]

[10sne1]

SD; You're right, we should have voted NO.

Happy New Year gents.

[Healey]

Your definition of 'rightfully' is absolutely correct. I suspect however that you would emphasize 'legal' whereas I would emphasize 'just' !

[Iago]

And in a court of law Healey you wood lose.

[Iago]

Gents, we seem to have lost sight of the forest because of the trees. Nobody in ASL is trying to usurp the system. The proposals put forward so far are, that if ASL is to benefit from the efforts of the AOA, then they[ ASL ] would like to contribute. But if you would prevent me from contributing, I can only accept your generosity with heartfelt thanks. For the AOA, ASL, and the company to investigate intergrating the remainder of ASL, including F/E's, thereby consigning ASL to history. It is interesting that one intergration could be so readily accepted, but a second intergration, further down the seniority list is so disdainful. I personally feel that seniority is the worst impedement to our profession that has ever been devised. It prevents the free flow of flight crew between jobs to access the best opportunities. Thereby allowing some free ranging exploitation by managment, as you have well experienced. Do you know of any other profession where, when you change jobs you have to start off everytime as an apprentice.

ASL will eventually disappear, the company said so, and we all know how well they they keep their word, don't we?

[Iago]

Wood? Try would.

[Martini]

intergrate: try integrate
impedement: try impediment

:) :) :)

Happy New Year to all

[absolut KUK]

Iago, you are talking to yourself (3 posts in a row)

[Shot messenger]

Compo,

A well written and balanced post by you. Permit me to respond to some of your points:

>>I bear no malice against those individuals who decided to come to CXF/ASL and take an offered position. A job is a job. I feel pretty sure that all of them were aware of the industrial situation at the time.<<

I suspect some of the later joiners may have become aware however the first ones thru’ the door had absolutely no idea of the hornets nest they were entering. Had I known I would NOT have bothered. Perhaps the AOA should have conducted a more vigorous awareness campaign worldwide at the time? I certainly went to great lengths to dissuade others from taking the Swire shilling, on this contract, as a result of the less than warm reception we received.

>> The only thing that bothers me is the attempt (after so few years) to bypass their fellow pilots to advance their own position. It was made perfectly clear to you all at the time by the company that you would only ever fly boxes. <<

The vast majority of ASL captains I have spoken to ONLY want to move boxes- be assured on that one! The thought of having to deal with the niff-naff and trivia of carrying punters again leaves me cold. You are welcome to it and you DESERVE the extra money!

>>The possibility of flying PAX when you have the seniority is a major concession by the pilots of "mainline" but this doesn't seem to be enough. <<

Please see previous response.

>>Whatever you do, remember that the company loves a divided workforce. We are divided by CoS and by seniority lists at the moment. The AOA managed to get you a big win with the rostering practices (ie you now have some AND they are the same as pax/mainline). <<

We are grateful to the AOA for that although, in truth, the AOA were actually fighting the corner of the VETA freighter guys. Incidentally had the AOA negotiated a deal that ‘ring-fenced’ the older captains on freighters until they retired then I believe ASL would now be extinct. I certainly would have signed across AND paid my dues to the AOA. I believe the vast majority of my ‘old-fart’ colleagues would have done like-wise.

>>Time to be grateful and not to rock the boat, one would think. "If we keep quiet, we may get some more wins on the coat tails of the mainline guys. We certainly don't want to p**s them off." <<

I concur entirely. As in all organizations, and groups of people, there are always those that shout loudest. Trouble is that it is their views that get imprinted on viewers and listeners minds. I would prefer to know what the silent majority are actually thinking.

Tailpiece-

Now that rostering would appear to be on the way to being fixed I would like to suggest that fair play be administered, in the new year, towards those who had their remuneration tampered with during the 'downturn'. At the time it may have seemed a realistic thing to do but now even those of us skulking at the bottom of the food chain think you were stuffed. An unsolicited generous gesture from management in this regard would go a long way to getting the key players back on side.

Getting the key players back onside will filter down as they pull the stops out and encourage their subordinates. The ultimate knock-on effect will, in my opinion, be the airline once again having a 'can-do' attitude. It goes without saying that, within a very short period of time, the consequent rapid growth period with an ‘on-side’ team would result in CX actually scratching for F/O's to promote to command.
I hope I am not being too naïve as I feel there is still an opportunity, with good will on all sides, to really put this airline back on the map.
I wish you all that you would wish yourselves for 2001
Blue skies
SM

[Compliant One]

Shot Messenger,

Thank you for your rational post - so rare these days!
Most of my points were a specific response to other peoples posts. I welcome the tone and acceptance of the present situation that you have shown.
There are so many different topics that have been brought up under this thread that it has all got too confusing for someone "of little brain" like myself.

May I just wish you a very Happy New Year and best wishes for the future.

A Prosperous New Year to us all.

Compo