ANC Vref + 50

[ASLr]

Is that port page procedure supposed to apply in all cases, i.e; 3 eng as well as 4?

[cpdude]

ASLr,

My understanding is that the Ref + 50 is designed to expedite the climb to 3000' primarily for noise abatement reasons but it also assists at clearing the VFR traffic at low level. No, you would not use it on a 3 eng climb-out!

cpdude

[mole]

Duh!

[cpdude]

It's always nice to here from professionals with a positive attitude. To encourage discussion and questions is not only working towards a safer environment for us all but creates a more harmonious work place. mole, I hope you learned something today!

[indeepsht]

ASLR'S been around long enough!

He should know that unless a specific eng. inop. proceedure is published on the port page or SID (ie. 06 l/r ANC.) then in the case of a failure it's company standard!

1000' AGL retract flaps and follow the SID.

SID's do provide terrain clearance unless another proceedure is published.

So I have to back up MOLE'S statement! DUH!

[amused]

That's why we program "eng fail excel ht" in FMC!

[xs calf]

Yep, I remember the "Duh" boys; usually those who didn't/couldn't think as many moves ahead as the guy asking the question :rolleyes:

[ASLr]

Thank you for your replies, one and all. I was never confused about the 'procedure' before good airmanship was replaced by the new Cathay 'one size fits all; no thought required, reduced to the lowest common denominator' way of doing things took over. The SID says to climb as rapidly as possible. It leaves discretion up the the pilot as to how to accomplish this. Cathay has taken that away. And the main reason I asked the question was so that when my brother pilots jump in the sim for their PC, doing their V1 cut and having loaded the Vref + 50 into the box, unlike the dullard I am, I don't want them to stop and think, "do I still do Vref + 50 with an engine out." while horsing around with the departure etc. I really don't think my question was worthy of some of the seemingly contemptible replies, however, I thank the Cathay Gods for their enlightenment just the same!

[JACOBUS]

Well, at the risk of sounding condescending..the whole point of the PC is of course that you are not expecting the engine failure, therefore, Q.E.D, SOP apply..I ,for one, however, would not programme the "vref +50 into the box" on this occasion, as you are surely going to get the eng. failure and this only serves to F*ck up your day..use the window open method to ensure port page compliance.etc...Of course in the real world, with engine failure, and as I understand ICAo regs, actual icing conditions, which is of course most of the year in ANC, noise abatement is out the window, and you fly the standard, CX, and Boeing for that matter, LCD procedure..Hope that helps ..

[Thrust]

I'm not normally a mole supporter but I'm at a loss here. I've only operated through ANC in the A340 and climb as rapidly as possible is VREF+10 for us. The reason is to avoid the VFR traffic at lower levels. We dont want to accelerate at the normal 1500' AGL for this reason.

I fail to see how accelerating to VREF+50 avoids the close in VFR traffic traveling up and down the coastlines. Surely it's initial climb angle that we want is it not?

Sorry about not being conversant about Boeing Ops but I'm suprised at the difference! Am I missing something here?

[This message has been edited by Thrust (edited 10 February 2001).]

[cpdude]

Thrust,

I can't say I'm familiar with the A340, but the B744 has a 5-minute limitation at take-off thrust. If we were to climb at Ref+10 and Accelerate at 3000' we would come very close to exceeding the time limit at climb thrust which is not set until flap 5 is selected (all engines). Ref+50 allows us to select flap 5 hence climb thrust. As this climb requirement is only for noise abatement, the radical climb profile is not necessary especially with stage 3 aircraft.

[Thrust]

Cpdude, thanks for the reply but I think you missed my point.

We have the same engine restrictions as you do.... I think it's the same for all fleets. What we do is reduce T/O thrust to climb thrust at the normal time (1500' agl for us) but maintain VREF+10 to 3000' then retract flaps. It's our best way to avoid the VFR traffic. (also just like noise abaitment)

What is the VREF+50 requirement? Is it a restriction to an altitude as with our green dot restrictions (best lift over drag, shown on speed tape) to avoid terrain?? Please reply as I'm genuinely interested.

[Thrust]

Sorry Cpdude, I don't think I read your reply properly before my last post (too early in the morning). I'm suprised that an "overpowered" A/C like a B744 can't get to 3000' without having to accelerate to VREF+50 first. Didn't realise about the flap5 thing. What's your normal T/O flap setting?

I'm sure the SID requirement to climb asap to 3000' is not a noise issue but is a traffic conflict one. Hope you miss all those lighties in summer!!

[Turtlenest]

As stated above, nothing to do with noise, everythng to do with crunching metal.

[cpdude]

Thrust,
I think this is a simple case of the tail wagging the dog. The Ref+50 is a new addition to the port page and was only added after it was realised that most, if not all, B744F crews were flying this profile to meet the "climb as rapidly as possible" requirement. Management elected to add it to the port page to ensure a standard is maintained. I guess it comes down to where you place your focus, to reduce thrust or to race towards 3000' for light traffic/noise. As Turtlenest wrongly alluded to, it is not to prevent metal crunching.

In N/A they use "TERPS" to design the criteria to build a departure. It requires 200'/NM climb rate for initial climb rates. If the departure required a greater climb rate it would be stated on the departure page with corresponding speeds/climb rates. Therefore, this requirement is for environmental reasons.

Normal T/O flap is 20. Obviously climb thrust can be selected at an earlier point by programming "the box" but it is defaulted to climb thrust at flap 5.

[Thrust]

Thanks dude. I'm as confused about your ops as ever but at least I'm sure of mine! Safe flying.

[Turtlenest]

Noise cpdud? As soon as you depart 32, you are over the Ccok Inlet. What noise are you talking about??

[cpdude]

What terrain are you talking about that requires a greater than normal climb-out?

[Alaskan]

It's not a noise abatement requirement but rather, as mentioned earlier, a collision avoidance requirement. It's in place to get the Anchorage Int'l Rwy 32 departures above the Lake Hood (adjacent to Int'l) and Merrill Field (downtown Anchorage) traffic. The procedure still will not provide separation from Elmendorf Rwy 05 arrivals hence the occasional "Taxi into position and hold awaiting Elmendorf traffic" clearance. If anyone cares further, it's all spelled out in FAR Part 93, Special Air Traffic Rules.

The terrain requirement comes into play little further away from the airport for Rwy 32. That's where the procedure for no faster than best angle to 13,500' westbound (Alaska Range) and 15,500' eastbound (Wrangell Mountains) applies. Terrain avoidance for Rwy 06L&R are a different story. (i.e. Don't forget to turn)

[This message has been edited by Alaskan (edited 12 February 2001).]

[cpdude]

Alaskan,

I stand corrected, thanks for clearing this up!

cpdude