CX FO based in KUL

[squak7700]

Just saw the CX advert in Malaysian papers for direct entry FO(freighter fleet) based in KUL.For year one the salary approx HKG 340,000.And after year three successful candidate may be transfered to HKG as an expat year four HKG based crew(salary quoted HKG 810,780).I am flying in this part of the world and am really interested in this advert.Anyone up there at the fragrant harbour willing to give his thoughts on this will be of great help.My present salary including allowance(meal plus productivity allowance) is approx of what CX is offering for a year one FO based in KUL.But what really attract me is the chance to be based in HKG after the third year.Some questions here:
1.Is this part of the ASL or is it CX?
2.What sort of duty hour per month on the freighter?
3.I mention "chance"(CX says suitable)...what are the chances of going HKG based?What is the rate of intake or conversion percentage from freighter to pax fleet crew?What do they mean by suitable?
4.The HKG810,000 for year four HKG based FO,does that include housing rental?
5.I know there are also similar schemes in LAX and SYD,are there any other foreign based FO in any other part of the world?
5.Working conditions?

Any input,good or bad will be of great help.
THANKS

[The Resistance]

...this company just can't seem to help themselves from antagonising us further....!! This is in effect another ASL....and with larger implications for the future. The company seems to have decided that, not content with just devaluing the competent and professional aircrew they already have, they are now taking it a step further and beginning to employ aircrew from 'third world countries'....and pay them accordingly. The thinking is obvious. Use the present body of professional checkers and trainers to train pilots who, in years to come will, a)happily work for much less money, and b) never contemplate 'industrial' action. It is time we told this management just what we think about their continuing and unrelenting psychotic determination to degrade and devalue us. The 31 of March is almost upon us. Perhaps a little 'message' of our displeasure is appropriate on that date. If we don't use the commercial advantages we have now to re-establish a sense of fairness and professional respect from our management, then we never will. You might as well all make plans to find another job, because in a few very short years the present (unlivable) conditions we now experience will seem like 'paradise' to what is to come. If you think I am being alarmist, then just look back at how drastically things have changed between 1990 and today. This airline is run by immoral, corrupt and self-serving individuals (KB, RF,NR...etc) who's ONLY interest is to feather their own nests, at the expense of everything they once believed in. They need stopping. They are running scared, and it will take only a very small 'push' to send this whole operation of the edge of the cliff. We need to ALL take a stand against this obvious attack on our futures. If we, don't, we won't have a future. There is no longer the luxury available to any of us of doing 'nothing'. We must ALL now do our part. We can beat this management, as our colleauges in the US have done so comprehensively to thier managements. This employment, and home basing of Malaysians is the biggest threat yet, far bigger than ASL was. Take the time to understand WHY it is such a long-range threat, and then understand that there is no longer any option to standing up to this continual destruction of our careers. Next thing will be the employing of Thais, based in Thailand, Singaporeans based in Singapore, and Bulgarians, based in Europe. What do you think your chances of a well paying, long lasting career will be then....? Stop it NOW.

[GK]

.... and the Chinese from the mainland.

[E-whale]

I have heard rumors of "third world" based and operated freighters for a year or more. It was to be ASL-II or the-son-of-ASL. I personally thought that after the "intergration" that the idea had been dropped. Guess not.

It is amazing what this management will do the further anger the pilots. In the midst of the current negotiations and turmoil to attempt to pull of a new "scheme" is simply amazing. Have they really lost it?

[GreatWayToFly]

Really who cares whether management antagonize the pilot body?If i am management i think that is the best way to undercut the big chunk paid to employees be it pilots or flight attendants or engineers.If you look at it realistically ,if they (third world pilots) are cheaper and as qualified why not?Sooner or later they will change CX to be a totally asian airline,run and manage by the chinese and all this a great thanks to the british.The best part of this is that the pilot body in CX itself is fragmented,most probably looking after their self interest.

[thepenguin]

Sing the tune: It's the end of the world as we know it...

[Old China Driver]

It seems we are faced once again with an aggressive, sureptitious, and ultimately dangerous challenge to our careers. And, once again, we see that the issue is mainly in the hands of the Check and Trainers. Will they agree to help train the 'first' group of aircrew who are being hired with the express aim of 'replacing' us in several years time? Gentlemen, be under no illusions, this management is determined to push us right up to the point of serious industrial action, believing that there is NO provocation great enough to provoke us into striking. With this mindset, they are convinced that by using our labour over the next few years, they can 'evolve' the nature of the aircrew body to the point that those of us from the 'traditional' backgrounds can be given their walking papers. There is no doubt that the company intends on hiring first Malaysians, then other regional aircrew (Singapore, Thailand, China, Eastern Europe, etc...) until, within a few short years, they have a 'pool' of aircrew that they can retain, and dispense with everyone of us as and when they feel like it. I advise everyone of us (particularly the Check and Trianers) to begin to appreciate the 'Grand Plan' that is being attempted. If this management succeeds, it will be only a few short years before our careers are over. The only option will be to agree to work on 'local' terms....and who amongst us can tolerate a 'career' based on those conditions? It is time that we all resolved to stop this insanity. If it comes to a strike, then so be it. I was once in C & T, and couldn't stomach the mentality of those at the top of this airline (KB, RF, etc...). Be in no doubt,.....this management is completely and utterly determined to push ahead with a program of devaluing our profession, with the reward being obscene bonuses. I urge all of you to take a stand. Challenge those of us who are in C & T to explain what they are willing to do about this abomination. It is time that those of us who have reaped the best rewards this career had to offer, now show that they possess character, and do what is right. Resign from C & T in protest and disgust. Use whatever excuse you need....but do it. If you don't, you will surely be sowing the seeds of your OWN destruction, never mind the destruction of the careers of hundreds of your colleagues. We need to show that there is a heavy price to pay for becoming and remaining one of 'Hitlers willing henchmen'... It is timely to remind ourselves of ASL's arrival on the scene. Those of you in C & T who were Flight Engineers trained your own replacements. No sooner where there enough ASL engineers, then suddenly all of you were made redundant. Remember how that felt. To see your dismissal letter in your mailbox, knowing that others of many years less seniority were continuing in employment, and you were now out on the street. Interestingly, some of those same very senior engineers have been rehired into CXF lately, on the bottom of the seniority list, being paid a quarter of their original salary. I believe that this time they intend the same for the pilots. Once they have a pool of 'Command' qualified pilots on the books (remember, they can hire a lot of pilots as FO's, who in fact can be quickly trained as Captains), they will issue an ultimatum (remember 1999...), and the choice will be either resign, or take far worse terms than even B-scale as we now know it. This is the final straw, and we must shut this airline down. The management must be made to realise that the cost of attacking us is far greater than ANY savings they may realise. It is time the AOA stopped treating this management with respect and patience. The management are stalling for time....and time is our enemy. Time for courage, resolve and determination to end this madness....once and for all. OCD

[canuck revenger]

Well said OCD. Isn't it by now obvious that this management has NOTHING BUT CONTEMPT for it's aircrew? How much more evidence do we need to prove that the ONLY thing left to us is to embark on a campaign of MAJOR industrial action. This management is determined to keep pushing and pushing, with the hope that we are too weak to react. Well, I for one am not too weak, and am ready to take a stand for what I KNOW I AM WORTH. How about the rest of you.....?

[mngmt mole]

Squak7700......just a word of advice mate. You will be MOST unwelcome in this company by the present aircrew. This deal is designed to undermine our careers, and we will NOT take kindly to those who take employment on such terms. Fifteen hours in a -400 across the Pacific is a mighty uncomfortable place to be when the other 3 crew members are burning with resentment. Stay away......you have your warning.

[thepenguin]

Ok chaps, What the hell does it take to get this aircrew body upset? If this does not do it then you all deserve the outcome. Rise up now! and keep the pressure on management. These c@nts are determined to hire whoever will do the job for the least money. A scale, B scale, ASL, and now
D SCALE!! Safety be damned. Does this matter to anyone besides those of us that post often? I want to hear from you!

[Tom Tipper]

Higher level managers at CX invariably use the airline as a mere stepping-stone for promotion within the Swire system. As a result they make short-term decisions which make them look good even if these decisions are detrimental to the company as a whole over the longer term.

Aircrew on the other hand will invariably stay with our airline for decades and have a far longer-term perspective of what is beneficial to the health of the airline - if at times a little unrealistic.

It is of course easy to make silly comments like GreatWay To Fly "The best part of this is that the pilot body in CX itself....looking after their self interest" but these are invariably created by jealousy, myopia or a combination of both.

A decision to employ 'cheap foreign labour' is difficult to criticise without drawing howls of indignation based on political correctness and claims of attitudes of colonial superiority.

However it MUST be said that this exercise of attempting to employ aircrew external to the standard mechanism of recruiting younger pilots, training them within our culture of the CX system and allowing them to acquire skill and knowledge over time is pure folly.

It is a typical short-term, knee-jerk reaction to a problem which our management has brought on itself. Combined with the significant cultural anomalies which (according to Flt International research) are THE most significant factor in Human Factors related accidents today, Cathay has created a potential minefield.

By bypassing the accepted means of pilot recruitment and experience acquisition CX is now lowering its standards. With lower standards the potential for grave problems increases. Should those problems directly or indirectly cause a 'hull-loss' then who should be to blame? Probably not the manager who made the decision as he will have been promoted elsewhere as a result his short-term managerial genius.

This argument will no doubt be dismissed as scaremongering by some but I would like anybody to show where it is flawed.

So to the CX managers responsible for such short-term sillyness, could I suggest that flight operations can not be run the same way as bottling plants ot property. As laughable as it may be, there ARE things which pilots know about and you guys don't and I believe this decision is one of them.

Perhaps you should look a little more thoroughly at the ramifications of your decisions before you proceed further.

Just a thought.

[jagman]

The situation is indeed a very grave one. The Flight Ops are a complete shambles and in a few days will be pushed over the edge of 'firefighting' and into chaos.
We must get our PR right here because otherwise the ensuing nightmare for the passengers will be blamed on the 'greedy aircrew'.
How about the AOA issuing a press release stating that things are 'at breaking point' and poor morale is caused by 'managements continuing attack on aircrew conditions despite making record profits'.
All this BEFORE the end of the month to negate what CX will say when their operation finally grinds to a halt.
DO IT NOW.............
Finally WHERE IS THE CAD in all of this??
Quite agree with OCD's comments about C+T. You've trained your replacements boys. Keep taking the pay and stuff everyone else eh??
Nice one.

[Girl Flying School]

If this plan goes through CX will become another MAS, a basket case airline run by cronies. CX management must be following the "Dilbert Principle"!

[BlunderBus]

Is it my imagination or did i just read, less than 2 weeks, a letter to crew from NR stating that 'at least CX will no longer hire direct entry F/O's onto the freighter'???? Does this guy have ANY idea what the flight ops. dept staff(which he co-manages)are up to?..or is it 'situation normal tell the troops anything and they'll believe it'...duh!

[BlunderBus]

I think CX intend to fund their 'war campaign' with the other 3 months profit share they owe everyone!!!!

[Screaming Lord]

Has anyone else seen this information in print, or had confirmation from our loving staff department ?

[Checkmate]

Called the AOA. It's for real! Check-out RKB's letter on the AOA web site.

ASL B scales? What must "The real ASL" make of this.

[This message has been edited by Checkmate (edited 29 March 2001).]

[fossil fuel]

Disgusting!

Remember 6 years or so ago when a certain person said "Cosap 94 was NOT the thin edge of the wedge". Yeah right. Now that was a good one. It sure turned out to be a hell of a lot bigger wedge than I imagined.

[This message has been edited by fossil fuel (edited 28 March 2001).]

[Fr8t M8te]

Checkmate

Dunno Mate. Haven't heard anything more than whats posted on here. Gawd only knows who they would get to train them if it were to happen-CXF overstretched training wise on both fleets as it is. Once again divide and rule seems to rule OK?
We don't (of course) have access to your AOA website so don't know what the letter alludes to - can U indicate as there would seem to be an area of mutual interest here?

Hope UR feeling fit and well for the month of April. Box of choccies on way if not!

Fr8t M8te

[coanda]

This has nothing to do with ASL whatsoever. NR stated that he would not be recruiting any more ASL crew or 'go down that route'.

These guys will be recruited by CX!

They will be employed by VETA on a basing!

They will get 15.5% provident fund!

They will get to HKG on the PAX fleet after 3 years!

The AOA must put a stop to this right now.

------------------

[Iago]

Could this by any chance have anything to do with an idea the company was kicking around a few years ago, about having remote based A300, B767/B757 freighters feeding SE Asia into Hong Kong?

[Midnight Rambler]

That's when they were so careful to stipulate twin-isle widebody when we had the big dust-up over scope clauses.

Hmmmmm! I smell a fat rat.

[indeepsht]

Squak7700. Just a quick question for you.

What was the first date that you read this ad. in your local paper please?

Thank-you.

[Fatbastard]

I must say that the KUL F/O deal almost makes ASL palatable!....my how our standards fall!

[E-whale]

Okay, I read KB's letter on the AOA web site.
I don't totally understand the value of recruiting F/O's in KUL for flight time limitation reasons. Who will they fly with? Don't they need to have a Captain?

So, the bigger question is where will the Captains come from? Will they post a KUL Captain vacancy for bid and then when no one bids it recruit direct-entry KUL Captains?

And, the final question is that if the Freighter pay scales (just approved) are negotiated, then the KUL payscales will have to be negotiated and approved by the AOA won't they? I don't see the AOA agreeing to payscales lower than the current Freighter scales


Remain Calm - but be prepared to ACT!

[PILOST]

Guys, I can confirm the offending ad was printed on the 24th March in a local english daily.

I must state that it's causing a lot of stir here among the local fraternity, but let me just quote the juicy bits from the ad :

"DIRECT ENTRY F/O FREIGHTER FLEET BASED IN KUALA LUMPUR MALAYSIA

Successful applicants will initially be based in KUL to operate CX freighter 744 & will receive on year one RM163,848.00 salary per annum.Includes concessionary travel & medical benefits.RIGHT OF ABODE, IMMIGRATION & TAX AFFAIRS ARE THE SOLE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE OFFICER.

Future oppurtunities will exist for successful candidates after 3 years in KUL to upgrade to pax fleet based in HKG & receive a full expat pax fleet F/O package (year 4 F/O eff. 01/07/01 810,780.00 per annum).

All F/O applicants must meet the following requirements:

1)ICAO ATPL

2)A min time of 1000 hours in ONE of the following categories:
a)Airline Jet Transport
b)Command Turbo Prop (MAUW more than 20,000 kgs)
c)Command Corporate Jet
d)High Performance Military Jet
e)Military Flying Instructor (fixed wing)

Unquote.

While not adding salt to our brethren's wound in HKG, I have to say that the renumeration offered is nearly on par (minus a few thousand ringgits & the perks) with MAS starting widebody commander.This is very enticing for the junior F/O's & F50 commanders in MAS as they are quite down the seniority file.Not to mention the ex Air Force, G/A guys plus the local airlines (Pelangi, Air Asia & Berjaya).

Couldn't imagine CX taking non locals as the current labour law prevents them from taking expats if the position could be filled by qualified locals.The mandatory Employee Provident Fund (EPF) is very generous too with a min of nearly 22% goes to the fund & the employee only forks out 9% to 12% of their basic pay towards EPF.Tax here is 29% max (which btw is the rate paid if your annual income exceeds RM100,000.00).

Again would appreciate some feedbacks for us.It's nice to know what we're actually worth in the open market.Hmmmmm, I wonder if MAS will now pay more to keep us in?

Safe Flying All,

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
PILOST

[New China Driver]

Here's a question.

Did the (alleged) advert come out before the AOA were informed or after?

It occurred to a few of us last night that ASL C&T's may be 'directed' to train them if our guys won't. My understanding is that they (ASL C&T's)may have no voice in the matter due to the way their contract is written. Anyone thought that one through? Is there now common ground to try and establish a conduit to them to offer them advice/assistance?

[indeepsht]

After but not by long. The letter sent to the A.O.A is dated 21.03.2001!

[PILOST]

The ad is real guys.Just a question though.What's the main objection for the KUL based F/O's?Is it industrial or something else?

Please enlighten us here in the "Thirld World".

Thanks.

Safe Flying
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
PILOST

[RRAAMJET]

it was next to the ad: " FOR SALE: one large vat of baseball bat grease. Bracing harness and gerbil not included...."

[thepenguin]

Pilost...well, that really says it all now doesn't it. They are hiring pilots for our jobs at 1/3 the money because that is a decent wage in KUL....that's the problem! If MAS can find someone to work for less than you does that make it alright to subvert your conditions? BOHICA-
Bend Over, Here It Comes Again.

[QNH1013]

YES, it is a decent wage here in KUL. And I understand the implications for Cathay Crews unhappy about the situation. Hopefully it will be resolved through the Union or other reasonable action. But I don't think you should make it the problem of honest pilots here in Malaysia wanting to make a better career move for themselves.

mngmt mole's threats/warnings not to join just because we wouldn't be popular and the other crews would be "burning with resentment" makes THEM the problem, not the KUL crew. Grow up.

This is not the 'war on drugs' or endangered animals where it is the demand or buying that has to stop first instead of the problem being the people supplying the 'bad thing'. Wrong end! It's not the fault or problem of KUL crews wanting to respond to the ad and the conditions offered. It is your top management that you have to aim the peanuts at, not the Malaysian pilots.

Remember it's all how you look at it. And if all pilots here in Malaysia had the benefit of your better lifestyle and conditions, then perhaps it would be a different story to what conditions would be acceptable.

[PILOST]

My sentiments exactly QNH1013.Please don't look down upon us if we respond to their offer.The cost of living here is much, much more less than in HKG.

What makes me wonder is with a union as strong as yours, don't you have anything in your contract that forbids pilots to be employed at less pay than their contemporaries (read that as locals)?We do, & to back it up our labour law protects us too (& this in a Third World!).

What is ironic here is when CX offered the positon of F/O's & S/O's about 10 years ago, most of the Asians were turned away (this is a FACT) with the excuse that us Third World pilots have doubtful capabilities & of inferior quality but now, they are clamouring for us coz we're cheap labour?If that is the case then market forces here will determine if their ads for those vacancies will be answered.

Like I said earlier, please do not condemn us as we are just enquiring about the prospect of working with an outfit like CX.If we're jumping from the frying pan into the fire, then, at the very least, let us know.

A word of consolation for you guys.The news around town at this moment is that your union is liasing with their IFALPA counterpart here.Most probably a better line of action might be taken after hearing from them.

Till then we do hope to hear more inputs from our friends in the fragrant harbour forum.

Safe Flying.
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
PILOST

[HUSTLER]

Aim the peanuts at the Top Management ??? MMmm

Apparently that doesn't work !!!!

[This message has been edited by HUSTLER (edited 04 April 2001).]

[thepenguin]

Fair enough on some of your comments Gents...you can understand the emotion on this one. Just stay away from CX and tell others the same. Taking this job is taking OUR jobs. The AOA is/will communicate that to your association. (and be forewarned that labour law does not protect you as well in HK)

[indeepsht]

Pilost... Yes living in your home KUL is most definitly "much, much, more less" So which one is it? More or less?

[taksi]

To the guys in KUL, you're not responsible for the folly of our management. It is our responsibility to put an end to this and I believe that we will, so don't count on a job with cx.

To the cx guys, if we start slinging mud at the boys from KUL then I guess we'll have to do the same to all the B scale etc etc. You can't expect the people who are looking for jobs to fix OUR PROBLEM that has existed long before they came along. WE need to stand up and stop this rot starting with solidarity from seniority number 1 and working right down to the bottom.

[ess jay]

TAKSI, You are a joke,joke,joke!

The reason why CX continues to degrade COS is because people like yourself just TALK, but never produce any action! You are a "gunna do this, gunna do that".
The reason why your A scale continues to be attacked is because "you are gunna do nothing".
But hey, you might aswell keep talking about doing something. You have been doing it since when?????????????????
1993!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[taksi]

Ess Jay, I'm sorry to say that you are quite right about the fact that the reason our COS has continued to deteriorate is because we haven't done anything about it.

As a result we continue to have the same problem. CX continues to find new ways of improving their profits at the expense of our COS. (I don't suppose that it would be too much of a stretch to say that they would like to see all of us on local terms, that would still be subject to change at the sole discretion of the company.) This thread is about employing pilots on local conditions based in KUL, which is yet another example of cx attempting to reduce our COS by eroding it from the bottom...exactly as they did with B scales. They got away with B scales so why not try it again?

My point with my earlier post is that there are more and less effective ways of dealing with this problem. To tell all of the pilots in the world, who might think of taking a job with cx on reduced conditions, that they better not erode our COS like that, seems to me to be one of the less effective ways. As far as I know that tactic has never worked in the past and I can't imagine that it will work now. It may even serve to alienate our colleagues who are with us now because they took a job on a reduced COS (most of us now), which obviously wasn't reduced to them or they wouldn't have taken the job. Right now we need everybody to stick together so I think that any idea that causes us to splinter apart is a bad idea.

Right now we have 3 options:

1)Do nothing and wait for an ever continuing erosion of our COS.

2)Leave cx and fix the problem for ourselves,or

3)Stand up as a unified group and actually do something about the problem.

You Decide, but in any case placing the responsibility for our problems on the shoulders of the boys from KUL is a copout.

cheers

[Liam Gallagher]

thepenguin,

You say, "The AOA is/will communicate that to your Association."

This would indicate the AOA holds the view that the establishment of a 744F base in KUL, for DE F/Os only, somehow breaches our "contracts". Do you know how the AOA has come to this conclusion?

[ess jay]

[This message has been edited by ess jay (edited 07 April 2001).]

[Triple Gem]

I can see a lot of fair skin guys are turning green.It is sad that this hollier than thou attitude still prevails. How long do u guys expect to keep colonised the so called third world countries,earn the big bucks and keep the locals high and dry? Eternity? I can see the same criterias applied in the recruitment,nothing less and I really fail to see how that will make us a lesser lots.Cx is a bussiness body,it owes to the share holders in maximising profit and at the same time not to compromise on safety and standards. Flight crew qualifications here are tailored to CAA standard.DCA is audited and sensored by CAA and FAA. Meanwhile I believe many of the local respondents to the ad will be reasonably qualified and experiened way above the requirement,which in turn will contribute to safer flight operations.So guys,do not belittle others while trying to keep your cosy and high paying job.

[DownIn3Green]

ess jay,

I have responded to your posts over on the mideast and african forums. I tried to be helpful, but upon reflection, based entirely on your posts I read on those 2 forums, I thought I'd look up all of your posts so I could make an informative decision about what I'm about to say.

So, wan*er, my question to you, referencing the post you made above, is: "How do you know it hurts when you take it up there when you bend over?"

You must like it and just be too ashamed to say....

I pity the sister in law having to be related to you.

PS-As this is my first visit to this forum, I apologize for jumping in and slagging one of yours, but I just thought someone needs to...I'll now retire back to the forums I'm familiar with...

[This message has been edited by DownIn3Green (edited 07 April 2001).]

[HUSTLER]

Triple Gem,

I think you miss the point.
Its nothing to do with the colour of your skin or origin.
Do you remember back when MAS employed direct entry expats for F/O & Command slots?
Did you like it, I dont think so. We just want to protect our current body of pilots and try to protect our already pathetic seniority system.
If you want to join Cathay by all means apply like the rest of did, ie; start at the bottom of the list, plenty of asian nationals have and have been successful!!!

[indeepsht]

Triple Gem... I'd have to agree with hustler!

Your saying we are trying to protect "our cosy and high paying jobs" for ourselves is absolutely incorrect!! What we are trying to do is stop the aircrew body's conditions of service and salary being erroded from the bottom up.

You should be happy that we are trying to stop the erossion of pilots conditions to the point that there is no longer a future in the industry for our children!

Unfortunately you think that by accepting a job on reduced conditions is a good thing for all.

The point you're missing is that if we can stop the rot, the job will still be here for you and your collegues but on proper industry standard conditions of service and renumeration.

[QNH1013]

indeepsht,
I do understand where you are coming from and it's a fair point. Would you say other Cathay Cargo bases elsewhere are offereing pilots similar degraded conditions that you are not happy about, or is it just a problem with the KUL conditions? I have been interested in the direct entry Cargo F/O position and also the S/O position on the Cathay passenger fleet and of course like everyone else would want the very best of future opportunities for myself, family etc.

Unfortunately this news will not stop the flood of applications from KUL. But hopefully for all you guys and gals at Cathay, things will improve for the benefit of all and also for the potential future of Cargo based and mainline crews.

Regards.

[Apuonbus]

Talk about resistance, boy, some people have it real good… and yet they still don't know it. Did anyone ever wonder why us third world pilots are willing to work for what Cathay are paying? Simple, we get to be at home, and earn more than we can hope to earn in our country… we're not spoilt brats, we don't ask for more than we think we deserve. Our flag carrier flies planes as well as any airline you can name. I don't think we are inferior, less competent or less qualified than anyone currently flying at the moment. Our small third world country has only one flying school, which was set up along the lines of a U.K. training establishment, we sit the U.K. C.A.A. exams, and have a complete training syllabus according to CAP 54. Our respective airlines in Malaysia also comply to CAP 371 and most of the other U.K. publications. Most the pilots in Malaysia happened to be trained overseas, usually in Australia or U.K. as these are the only 2 countries approved by the local authority for overseas training. Anyway, that's sidetracking, I feel as incompetent as the next guy, probably as incompetent and unqualified as whoever wrote the "resistance" article to start with, no doubt I do come from a third world country, I learnt my flying in Malaysia, subsequently went to U.K. and obtained my U.K. C.A.A. ATPL, so that goes along with my incompetence as I now hold a U.K. ATPL, a Malaysian ATPL and an American (F.A.A.) ATP… all of which were obtained without any exemptions. If for any reason I happen to be more qualified (or more incompetent) than my fellow third worlders, it's not by much, as I would say more than 80% of the pilots here hold licences of at least 2 countries, the second usually being Australia or Britain. We are not devaluing any one or any company (maybe the writer seems insecure that his job is at risk from inferior and less qualified pilots?), infact we would be an asset, spoiling the market? No such thing, if Cathay choose to employ pilots who are willing to work for less, well, so be it, As for the standards, well, they're set by Cathay Management, so there's no point yelling at us, it's your management you should be yelling at. Tell me, friend, if you got offered a job paying more than you earn now, wouldn't you go? Cathay are offering just that, more than we can earn here. Who knows it may even raise the "lower standards" we allegedly practice. Cathay isn't a charity organization, it's a business just like any other, and it's people who write derogatory articles against the less fortunate that spoil things. Whoever you are, the author of the resistance… I have one question for you… .. why aren't you in your home country flying??? Too incompetent yourself?

[indeepsht]

Well then....

Enjoy your 8 to 10 day off each month with your family! Because that's all your ever going to see!

Your right Cathay isn't a charity there a business and a very profitable one at that.

Ever wonder why?

BTW if you enjoy working from your home your joining the wrong outfit you'll be DTing all over the place to pick up your flights for ZERO credit!!

Enjoy!

[HotDog]

I find the Malaysian responses very logical and fair. However, as it was with B scales, if nobody accepts the terms of offer, it will never happen; but that is a pipedream and you know it.

[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 08 April 2001).]

[PPRuNe Towers]

A number of recent responses have been edited or deleted due to their juvenile and abusive content.

------------------
Regards from the Towers
[email protected]

[thepenguin]

Apuonbus...what's your point. You would be accepting d-scale conditions and undermining our jobs. Should I like that?

[Thrust]

Good comments from all sides at times.

It worries me, reading some lines written here, that we continue to learn nothing from our recent history. It's not a problem having a pilot wanting to improve his or her lot by applying for a better job than the one they already have. What is the problem is that we as CX pilots seem willing to blame them for coming and not management for providing D-scales etc.

We have let the company get away with COS94, B/C-scales, S/O COS, ASL and more. Surely it's time to say enough. Direct your anger at our managers and not our fellow professionals. Have your say at the EGM on the 19th of April. If we need more pilots for our operation (and we DO) we want them as first class citizens on our COS and not as poor second class wanabee's.

Just a thought.

[PILOST]

Have to agree with QNH1013, that the flood of applications will not stop from KUL as CX is tapping a niche workforce which are available with their requirements.The good thing that will definitely come out of this will be that the present employers here have to review our pay to keep up with CX's offer.Or suffer a massive exodus......(again).

My hopes & prayers to our fellow professionals on their upcoming EGM.Maybe with their unity & resolute desire to improve their working conditions will we in KUL get the same working conditions as them.Pitting us pilots together will only serve the management's ulitmate aim, to divide & conquer, which is the colonial powers trademark in ruling their colonies.Ironic isn't it?

Safe Flying.
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
PILOST

[BlunderBus]

Dear QNH1013 and comrades. Reading your comments i take it you have no objection then to some 3rd party crews(on lower slaries than yourselves)making an en-masse application for.. say... direct entry command positions in MAS purely because your management knows they are cheaper labour? The arguement that we are all 'just trying to better our conditions' may apply to you but at what cost to the pilots here who have already done their time and have had upgrades or basings opportunities and salaries trashed?...for the last 5 years! Good luck in your flying career but you won't get any CX troops onside...we're still speechless that 'they' are trying this when we are on the brink of industrial collapse..talk about lousy timing. Perhaps if they employ enough of you guys then they could afford to continue running the airline during the next breakdown in talks. If that's the game plan i would consider most carefully the merits of being caught in the middle!

[indeepsht]

Everybody knows what we, in this industry call a pilot willing to join a company during a strike. Don't we?

Now what do we call a pilot willing to join on reduced conditions during a period of "industrial action"? (The companies quote not mine, ours, or the A.O.A's)

Seems to me that the two situations are not that different! Or are they?

[PILOST]

Point taken BlunderBus & indeepsht.I would love to see someone coming to MAS with our less than meagre pay! :rolleyes:

But seriously, it's still big money for some of the guys here.You must remember that the criteria that they set might tempt the GA & ex Air Force guys more than the MAS pilots.

I wouldn't like to be in a position where I will earn the wrath of my co workers, but then again some people would just look the other way when blinded by money.As proven by the events in OZ some years ago.

My personal hope is that you guys will see this through & indirectly benefit us here in KUL.

Safe Flying.
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
PILOST

[indeepsht]

The boys that came to OZ to fill the void left by us are still not a well liked or respected bunch!

People have very long memories!!

[Liam Gallagher]

An interesting comparison can be made between the proposed KUL 744F salary of US$43,200 and the year 1 Syd Freighter salary of US$44,200.

Clearly this extra $1000 is valuable for it prevents your "colleagues" like Tom Tipper from describing you as "cheap foreign labour" or thepenguin warning that you are, "d-scales and undermining our jobs" or Fatbastard from exhorting, "my how our standards fall".

Every Syd 200F FO must grateful to Santa Ron for the extra grand, otherwise indeepsht will be justified in referring to you as a scab (in the politest of ways) and some very brave, but anonymous, hero will warn you that, "Fifteen hours in a -400...is a mighty uncomfortable place.. stay away.."

I remain unconvinced that had the company set up a 744F base in Syd on the same pay as the KUL base, this would have been an issue attracting such venom. I therefore wonder what the real issue here is?

[mole]

Dear Liam, I doubt you wonder all that much as I am quite sure you know exactly what the issue is. This used to be a career airline, it ceased to be such around 1993/94 when B scales/ASL appeared. Unfortunately it takes rather a long time for the message to get through to everyone. Some still have vain hopes that they work for a career airline, get real guys we work for a third world outfit that will hire at the cheapest rates they can get away with. How do they get away with it? Because they can! Imagine UA/AA/BA/LH/DL/NW/AF etc trying to recruit in KUL or DEL or CMB or BOM or BAH or DXB (dare I say AUS?) etc. Of course they cannot because they are first world carriers based in countries with labour and immigration laws. Hong Kong protects business interests and that is all. There is nothing we can do about this new development. Live with it or leave for a job somewhere else where you don't neeed to worry about your job being sold to the lowest bidder. If the CEO can fire a Captain on the spot for being unwise in the company bar what hope is there for the rest of us. I give up!

[indeepsht]

Well said Mole!

[fodder]

Pilots joining the base in KL will not be welcome in Cathay .Not on the grounds of skin colour, religion or any other sinister motive. But simply that they will be used to denigrate my earning potential at some future point, with or without their consent .
I'm sure that there are some very personable highly skilled and competent pilots in KL. Probably a lot better than myself, they would be most welcome if they joined mainline like every other new recruit. But not if recruited directly to a base at yet another salary scale.
This is not just another slap in the face, for the existing aircrew.
What is going on here is a blatant attempt to recruit another workforce that will be used as leverage to launch yet another attack on A scale pilots at some future date.
We allowed ASL to be formed, we allowed B scales into our ranks, it is time to take a stance and stop this continual rot. it's like a fungus . If you do not get rid of it , it will consume you.

[Kubota]

Relax, guys, it's not going to happen.

CX "management" have started this as a bargaining chip for the real crunch at the end of April.

I'll wager the company will put this on the table as an "if you accept THIS part of the deal" (whether it be an overtime package, rosters deal or whatever) "we'll drop the idea of the KUL base."

If you think that it's too far-flung an idea, those of us who have been here for a while will well remember the poker game that CX played with the Airport Authority over the new training base in SYD if the AA didn't lower the cost of the land leases...guess who won?

Sorry to say this to you guys (in KUL) well, not really sorry, but IT AIN'T GONNNA HAPPEN. Don't quit your jobs or start an new HP agreement, because you're all being used by NR and Co.

Don't get your knickers in a knot over this, anyone. Do you really think the company would be SO stupid as to start ANOTHER ASL?

Relax. The AOA has this one.

[cpdude]

Hallelujah!

Now I can see the light............wait a minute..............it's getting closer..........oops!.............It's a train coming directly at us.

I wish I had your confidence Kubota!

[Liam Gallagher]

Mole,
It is the venom contained within the posts that has me wondering.

I readily accept that Freighter salaries are not good news; I receive one! However, every other week since 1st Jan 2000 people are joining CX with the AOA's blessing on salaries only a few thousand dollars more than the KUL base and yet there has been no mass hysteria or threats.

As regards your final comment "I give up"; should it be that you resign and join one of the airlines that hold up as an example, BA, you have no doubt read the threads on Rumours and News regarding train drivers in the UK being paid more than Yr1 FOs and BA's treatment of DE Fo's on the 744. Surely BA are not "hiring at the cheapest rate they can get away with "? Equally, you may have followed the somewhat tragic thread last month (or so) detailing how BA busted a Captain back to FO because he suggested over the PA that one of the passenger was nuts.

Good luck with the building blocks and the Human Resources luvvies; let us know how great BA is.

[conan]

Liam,

I do not read any venom in Mole's posting. Merely telling it like it is . We no longer work for a career airline anymore true , we have no protection under HK law true, Our record of taking action to prevent this company from denigrating our contracts is not good true.
Maybe you are reading something into his post that isn't there???

[Midnight Rambler]

I have to say I am with LG on this one. There is no way we should accept this and it is typical of the company's duplicitousness and mendacity that they should be trying this out now. However, there is an element of bigotry in some of the posts which speaks volumes. On the face of it (and I hasten to refer to my opening comments) there is very little difference between a base in KL to a base in Chicago, Sydney or London. They are all paid at "regional rates".

Again the company is trying it on. We have to treat this in the manner it deserves and not descend to fellow-professional-bagging. Don't take it personally - that falls straight into their devisive trap. Let the AOA deal with it and let us support their stance when called upon to act.

[squak7700]

Went for the interview in KUL.Three guys on the board of interview.Saw five other guys there too for the interview, from the same airline as me.The outcome is very reassuring and direct.

[Liam Gallagher]

Conan,

I agree; I did not read any venom in Mole's post either. My original post clearly refers to other contributors.

[ebogeng]

mr squak 7700, any details regarding the interview ? all the best bro..

[Kubota]

To everyone in KUL...IT AINT gonna happen...

Don't get excited. Pie in the sky.

[QNH1013]

The same advert came out in the local newspaper again yesterday. Surprisingly, I thought just the first advert would generate enough responce.

[Liam Gallagher]

Kubota,

The company presently aims to crew the 744F with North American and London based Freighter Crews. I understand the introduction of FO's onto a KUL base is seen as desirable from the company's vantage due to, not only the slightly lower salary, but the advantages the KUL base represents in terms of Flight Time Limitations in that the KUL FO's can be sent to either North America or Europe. Traditionally, the company would use Australian based pilots, but I understand the new roster practices and the the crew hourly pay (when they both arrive????) will be an additional cost for the extensive Base Travel (Dead Head) duties.

You seem to have further information when you say, "The AOA has this one" and "its not going to happen". Further to my post of the 6th;

1. What are the AOA's objections to the KUL base, and
2. The company is going to crew the new 744F's. Should it be that their fallback position is to form a 744F SYD base on Freighter salaries, will the AOA object to that?

I look forward to your response.

[squak7700]

I guess AOA is not too happy with KUL basing is the fact that CX will finally have an influx of non whites joining rank and file.Most postings reject the idea of KUL basing vehemently but not the basing of LAX or SYD....wonder why?

[10sne1]

77;

It has nothing to do with skin colour. It has to do with further cheapening of the job. A pilot working for less than half of even a B-scale threatens all of those ahead of him. If there are no takers to the CHEAP jobs then the price goes up, FIGURE IT OUT!!! We don't want our jobs and careers attacked any further. It has been relentless for the last seven years and we are fed up. Kindly P&SS OFF!!

[conan]

squak 7700,

I'm saddened that you think that this is a racial issue. We have lots of Chinese Pilots in the company right now and we all get along very well together. It has nothing to do with race . It has to do with diluting my position in this company, It has to do with you being used to attack my salary and conditions.
I'm against any bases if the crew do not join mainline. we have had it with ASL now you lot

[Panza]

7700... yes it is very funny to note that Cathay have never employed a Malaysian pilot before. All of a sudden because they are prepared to work here for next to nothing..Cathay think they are the best pilots since sliced bread. Funny that. Not good enough all these years...but now they are the best.

------------------
" If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for everything "

[QNH1013]

From The Star Newspaper today.

******************
Cathay Pacific ad upsets pilots

HONG KONG: An advertisement placed in The Star by Cathay Pacific Airlines to recruit pilots has upset the Hong Kong Airline Officers Association, which is accusing the company of trying to employ cheap labour from Malaysia.
The association has warned that this would lead to worsening industrial relations between the staff and the company.

Cathay Pacific has denied the association's claim and said the scheme was still at an "exploratory stage,'' according to a report in the South China Morning Post.

However, association general secretary John Findlay countered: "You don't advertise in a newspaper and set up interviews if the scheme is merely intended to be exploratory.''

He said this was in breach of the spirit and details of the agreement on conditions of service reached in 1999.

In the advertisement, Cathay Pacific is offering first officer freight pilots RM163,848 (HK$344,888) in the first year, similar to that for a second officer here.

Successful applicants would get a chance to move to the territory after three years of service.

The airline, in dismissing the association's allegations, said it would pay the pilots according to market forces.

"At this stage, I would say that we are at the exploratory stage and will be looking to see if the candidates are good enough,'' said corporate communications manager Rosita Ng, adding that Cathay Pacific was looking to recruit the best pilots in the world.

The dispute is the latest in a series between the union and the airline.

In December, the airline struck a compromise deal with its pilots, agreeing to a 4% pay rise over the next year to avert the threat of flight disruptions during the Christmas holiday season.

*****************
Related Link;
http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2001/4/16/nation/1619cath&newspage=Search

[Herb]

From Channelnewsasia.com

http://sg.cna.mediacorpnews.com//articles/2001/04/08/singaporenews56370.htm

[Apuonbus]

From my intel, more than 100 people have been called from KUL for interviews, ranging from the GA operators to MAS 737 capatins.... Apparently they have been told that there are 10 available places

[satcom]

Interview in May.

[ikan_terbang]

What scares you guyz is cheap pilots from KUL will replace you.
If I was CX management I would do it.
Keep my cost low.
This is the age of globalisation and pilots are now a global comodity.
Just like fuel prices there is supply and demand here.

Makan Ikan kering

[indeepsht]

Ikan.........

You talk sh*t!

Join CX at your peril/ discretion!

But, I promise you joining this lot will be a serious mistake!

[10sne1]

Ikan....

Should you join this company, you had better hope no one finds out who you really are. Next thing you'll tell us is that you would cross a picket line. We don't need or want the likes of you in this airline or any other for that matter. P*ss-off!!

[Fatbastard]

Gentlemen, I think we have seen that these interlopers are not at MAS because they are 'the sharpest knives in the drawer'...

They appear to have a good idea of what THEIR skills are worth!

[Midnight Rambler]

Seems to me that precisely what the company wants is happening - the boys are fighting amongst themselves!

You guys are not doing us any favours with this sort of rhetoric. You are merely demonstrating a woeful lack of maturity in dealing with an emotive issue. Don't rise to the bait.

[kurmitola]

To All aspiring KUL based F/Os, all the very best to you. At least you will be at "home" more days than those who objected to the idea. You will still be able to go to the nearest waterfall, scuba diving in Tioman or just trekking up in Frasers Hill. Get to see your green garden as compared to the next concrete block across the harbour with the free smell and guess what ? Only 3:45 to home. Sometimes , its not all about money. B-scaler came, ASL came,....yet nothing happens. Some left the pride in this third world outfit and swallow part of it to go back to Virgin Blue, and Impulse. If you guys are gonna be employed at a higher salary than those already in the harbour ( I know its just a dream, well...lets say ! ), Will there be any objections ? Loved to see an answer to this....

[RYNCLEE]

Ikan, you will probably join CX. After a year you will wonder why you are doing the same job for the same airline as guys on double your salary. Then you will start whingeing on this forum.

[GK]

>>KUL 744F salary of US$43,200 and the year 1 Syd Freighter salary of US$44,200.<<

I don’t get it. The difference in salary between the KUL and SYD year 1 freighter F/O is only US$ 1000. What’s all that big fuss about? Nick, go ahead and give an extra US$ 1000 to the KUL guys.

[BlunderBus]

Not only can't you guys spell..you can't add either! and you FLY for a living! Just as well because anything to do with literature or maths is a no brainer. Do us all a favour and read your own emails BEFORE you post them....Duh

[HUSTLER]

77,
You really are an idiot, its people like you
who degrade this profession.
With an attitude like your's it wont be hard to find you should you arrive.
Beware and be warned


HUSTLER

[ikan_terbang]

indeepsht....

As your name suggest you are talking sh*t.
You dont own the airline CX. U only work there.Just like I when I join CX. U can try to "fix" me but I think you are full of bull****.Please do not scare honest looking for jobs in CX

Makan ikan kering

[indeepsht]

ikan....

Did I say don't join? I believe that I said "Join at your peril/ discretion!" I also said that I thought that it would be a "serious mistake!" to join on those conditions.

Now it seems that you know best anyways so don't bother listening to me or any others on this forum!

Do as you please! Just don't let me here you whinging in a few years about doing the same job as the rest of us for so much less!

What do we know anyways?

[residualvolts]

This is a pure case of race, whites and monopoly. CX never use to take asians before and now when management is doing something to take asians the truth comes out. You CX pilots was behind it all along. Even if we applied last time it was always KIV and forgotten. Hello, mates, u dinasours will end up just like Qantas when they sack all their pilots which were on strike. The problems now is yr CX pilots own doing. Its blowing in yr own faces, mateee. Asian Airlines take u with open arms and all the while this is how u thank yr fellow man/woman. To the Asian Airlines this is how it is now u will know better. 'Fly Cathay Pacific, the heart of Asia' slogan is a lot of white crap! Beware in flying CX now their pilots are not in the sound of mind.

[PILOST]

Coming back to the topic, another ad came up again today in the same english daily.

Makes me wonder whether CX management couldn't get the right candidates or are they fishing for more numbers?

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
PILOST

[mole]

This is a post copied from the other thread on this subject. Thought you should see it residual volts et al.

You are quite wrong, CX does now employ pilots from a very large number of countries. Our pilots have many different ethnic backgrounds including Asian.
The objection to this new move by our management is only that it does not comply with previous agreements they have made with the HKAOA. Colour, race, sex or anything else has absolutely nothing to do with it. The very fact that many of the prospective applicants from KUL seem to be stirring up a racial pot may be evidence enough that the company is looking in the wrong place for it's future aircrew. We do not want anyone in our ranks who bears a chip on their shoulder about race. We do not have a problem with our race relations and we certainly do not want to see one developing in the future.

[HUSTLER]

Well said Mole, sums up a reply I was about to post!!!

[Herb]

residualvolts sounds like Turdbill after a few ales me thinks! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

When are you people going to understand this is NOT a racial issue for the PILOTS. If Cathay Pacific Airways are prepared to pay pre 94 salaries they can set up an office on Mars if they so wish.

By recruiting pilots from Malaysia at salaries way below anyone else in the airline the OWNERS and MANAGEMENT of Cathay Pacific Airways are saying that Malaysian pilots are not worth as much as say a HongKonger/Brit/Canuck/Yank etc...( sorry I missed a few I know!). Now, do you really want to start employment with an airline that holds you in such low esteem, because believe me once you are into this crappy airline, it only gets worse.

Please think long and hard about coming to this rapidly deteriorating airline.


[This message has been edited by Herb (edited 22 April 2001).]

[PILOST]

Point taken Herb.I sincerely believe that HKAOA is interested in the benefit of ALL pilots worldwide.

CX is an airline with a colonial history.By design then, they are of course interested in their own pockets.But that is HISTORY.

However I do believe, the pendulum has swung too far on the other side.By comparing the oz based crew with us from the postings here, the locals are paid USD1000.00 less!Which means in no uncertain terms that we're capable but are being paid RM3800.00 less!This now looks like RACIAL DISCRIMINATION (by the CX management)& not market forces as they righteously claimed.

My only recommendation is to spit on their face.But alas......it's big money for those not type rated here.I will now say good luck to my brethrens here for choosing this very blurred path in their flying career.

As for me.....you all know where I stand now.

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
PILOST

[conan]

To Residualvolts and all the other racists out there
Residual it sounds like your volts and Frequency are not synchronised , either that or they gave. you too many volts during your rehab.Your arguments are flawed and clearly based on a racial chip that you carry around with you. All I can say is that at least you are balanced, you have a chip in both shoulders.
I am so sick and tired of hearing about the issue of race, something that is non existent amongst all our aircrew. We all get along together, there is no disharmony on the flight deck.
I will admit, that I get on better with some people than others, but that applies to all of the pilots who I work with. It is an issue of personalities not race.
The reason that we have only started taking Chinese pilots recently is one of economics. There were no Chinese pilots with licences in Hong Kong, and there fore it was expedient to recruit foreign Pilots who were already trained( The usual requirements were Previous Command on heavy Jets and at least 5000 hours Plus) Times have changed !!! so have the requirements. But the underlying issue is that we do not have race problems within the airline. I never even think about it nor have I for many years.
But let me say this I do not want people like you with these attitudes on the flight deck. You are a safety issue , one that we do not want or need.
If you should join, keep your opinions to yourself or you will find life very tough here.
Just in case you are slow to comprehend the issues here. You will be used by the company at a future date to attack our present conditions of employment. That is the sole reason for anyone objecting to the Malaysian Base. Join mainline at the bottom like all the other pilots and you will be most welcome. Join to undermine my position and you have no idea of the animosity that you will receive.
Just a little history for you We did nothing about B scales and it cost us, we did nothing about ASL and it cost us. Well we are slow learners ! But determined not to let another set of conditions be introduced without a fight. That is the only reason for the reception that you are experiencing . Think very long and hard about what you are coming to. Do the right thing and apply to mainline, where we will welcome you with open arms

[Liam Gallagher]

Pilost,
I think you are referring to my posts comparing Oz Freighter Pay to the proposed pay scale for KUL and conclude that this is "racial discrimination". I believe your conclusion is incorrect as the pay for each base is "supposed" to reflect the market conditions of the base. You are at liberty to apply for Freighter bases in FRA, MAN and ANC and your pay shall be determined by base and not your racial origin. Should you join CX and come to HKG, your pay will be determined by the Conditions of Service prevailing at the time and not your race; it will be same pay as a UK/US/Martian pilot who joined on the same date as you. Be in no doubt, CX is keen to take advantage of any racial group; they are not prejudiced.

Apologies to Buttmunch for trying to introduce some substance, but Mole you again say the KUL base "does not comply with previous agreements". I again ask, to which agreements do you refer?

blah blah blah

[HUSTLER]

Although I can not speak for them personally im sure that our locally employed guys & girls dont want to see there COS degraded either.

So please guy's, see this for what it is and get off your racial high horse

BTW the position you take could just be the upgrade of one of the local S/O's, ever thought of that!!!
No I didnt think so!!!!

[This message has been edited by HUSTLER (edited 22 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by HUSTLER (edited 22 April 2001).]

[PILOST]

Yes Liam, I did based my comments on your posting.However I guessed my posting did not get my intentions through (english is not my first tongue).

I do understand that the pay package is subject to local market rates.However it is for the same "job done".Not to mention that the pay offered would undermine the HKG based pilots's pay structure & their continuing struggle for better pay & working conditions (which in turn will benchmark our pay here).

As Hustler rightfully said, we might be taking a slot for the locals there, god knows how long will they progress in their career after being sidelined during the colonised years.So, they are other hidden issues here to be answered by the CX management.

I still believe that CX management is taking all the pilots who are with CX or trying to get into CX for a ride.The "divide & rule" policy used by the former colonist are being put to good use here.

Good luck again to the pilots with CX on their ongoing struggle.Hopefully it will lead to better terms for the pilots here who wants to be based in KUL.

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
PILOST

[HUSTLER]

Why did Management try and hide this from us???

Why werent these positions posted in the Notice Book like all the other vacant positions, per our 99 agreement ??

I really think there's more to this than meets the eye.

[Liam Gallagher]

Conan,
You are advising, "Join mainline like all the other pilots.."

My understanding is the KUL base is being formed under the Freighter Crewing Agreement, sanctioned by the AOA, and as such they, like all the guys who joined Veta (post 1 Jan 2000) join the mainline seniority list at the bottom. They do not prejudice the S/O's presently employed as the new joiners have a seniority number junior to them. In these circumstances I do not understand how the KUL base is a threat. Do you have further info?

Pilost, all CX pilots understand the "same job done" argument, however CX, like most multinational companies, whether that be Toyota, Cocacola or even MAS, employ staff based out the company's home country on local terms. All based pilots are paid on "local terms" and the KUL pilots are not being singled out. We may not like it, but that is the way of the world and if you can suggest an alternative...

[This message has been edited by Liam Gallagher (edited 22 April 2001).]

[thepenguin]

Quite right Liam, But, There are some unique aspects to our 'work life' that do not effect 'normal' executives: 1) We have a shorter (in general) length of career, and a defined end date - limiting earnings 2) Our monthly earning are limited legally by the number of hours we can work 3)Most importantly, we do not have the opportunity to transfer laterally between companies. We are inexorably 'married' to the seniority list. Changing employers results in a massive drop in pay. 4)Our career can be lost by many seemingly benign ailments/accidents, whereas anyone working in an office could continue. The best analogy is to the career of a professional athlete. We deserve exceptional pay and benefits that are appropriate to the risks we take. As in all things there should be the appropriate risk/reward relationship.

[GK]

Conan:

Quote: >>The reason that we have only started taking Chinese pilots recently is one of economics. There were no Chinese pilots with licences in Hong Kong, and there fore it was expedient to recruit foreign Pilots who were already trained( The usual requirements were Previous Command on heavy Jets and at least 5000 hours Plus) Times have changed !!! so have the requirements.<<

You are only partially correct. I guess you have not been around long enough to know it. The reason why there was no licensed HK Chinese pilots in Hong Kong was because the HK CAD (under British rule) would not issue a CPL or ATPL unless the pilot was offered employment by one of the local airlines, and CX was the only one at that time. In the 70’s and early 80’s, a few HK Chinese obtained their UK CAA licences but was rejected by CX due their lack of experience. At that time, CX was only hiring pilots with either the experience or have the right connections to the company. Fortunately, those few HK Chinese pilots later found employment with other Asian carriers such as SQ and CAL.

The first “Chinese” pilot was hired by DragonAir in the mid 80’s (may be 1986? Sorry, my memory is leaving me!!). He is actually an Australian of Chinese origin. Perhaps someone here can verify it, I heard a rumour that there were a few Chinese pilots in the very early days of CX. Those few actually left on their own and went “back” to China or Taiwan. One of the reasons why CX didn’t hire any Chinese pilots was because the old CX management was afraid that a Chinese pilot might hijack a CX aircraft and fly it to China. I know that sounded stupid but that was the worry back in the 50’s till the 70’s. In the early 80’s, the Thatcher government agreed to revert HKG back to China. All the big Hongs and the HK government had to localize their staff and that’s when CX started the cadet pilot programme.

[Herb]

Sorry Liam but I have to take issue.
1/Please point out all the pilots recruited from Malaysia to date. I don't think there is one.
2/The Cathay Pacific seniority list ( for what it's worth ) reads like the United nations.
The Owners and management of Cathay Pacific Airways have in their wisdom have recruited from all over the world and based these pilots in Hong Kong. Any Malaysians? I don't think so.Why not?
2/ Cathay operates Freighters and pax aircraft on a regular basis to all the places where there are based crew, in proportionate numbers.
3/ Cathay Pacific Airways operates a freighter twice a week to Penang.
4/ CPA wants to recruit 100 pilots initially out of KUL ( I believe). This number is totally out of proportion to the number of services. Now take that idea to its logical conclusion! Scary.
I make this point because you compare it to multinational companies employing locals to work in local factories. In fact the more appropriate comparison is that of United Airlines popping off down to Acapulco and recruiting 1000 Mexicans in order to DT them to LA to operate through the rest of the network. Can you see that happening??

This is exploitation of the worst kind. It is totally despicable.
Give the Malaysians a job in HK at the going rate (hopefully pre 94 ).

However, having said all of the above...the whole thing is designed to distract us from the REAL issues in HK.
All of you who were not represented at the last EGM either in person or by proxy should be bloody ashamed.

[This message has been edited by Herb (edited 22 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Herb (edited 22 April 2001).]

[Liam Gallagher]

thepenguin,
I agree with your 4 points regarding pilot's pay, however the only point I was trying to make was it is inappropriate to brand CX as a racist employer on the basis that it paid different pay to pilots on different bases when it is a worldwide common practice to employ staff on local terms. Moreover, if people do not like it, rather than engage in a rather distasteful thread promoting racial disharmony, suggesting a practical alternative would be more appropriate.

Herb, I am unaware that CX is aiming to recruit 100 pilots. The pax fleet may have a proportionate number of pilots on base to the flights into the base. However, because the Freight fleet has no HKG based pilots this is not so. For example, on the 200F the Oz bases run "heavy" and are effectively "bused" up to HKG.

Joyrider said it and you have said it and perhaps we should listen; This issue is of dubious import when compared to the major issues facing us. Are we in danger of taking our eye of the ball?

[Midnight Rambler]

Eye off the ball? Exactly what the company wants and almost everybody posting on this and the other related thread is falling over themselves to oblige.

[411A]

'Hay there Herb, think your days as an expat "high paid guy" are numbered. Too bad for you but the world has caught up, and learned from your managements' mistakes in the past.

[thepenguin]

Well said Liam. I do not believe that there is any racist intent in any of CX' practises. Pure coincidence. I'm sure there are some great Malaysian pilots and I would be happy to fly with them...unfortunately it appears that we have not heard from any great Malaysian pilots on these pages. We appear to basically be of one mind. I will not converse with these tossers any more.

[HUSTLER]

411A,

I see you are as well liked in the Middle East forum as you are here!

Now fade away into retirement gracefully old man

[mole]

411A, I presume you mean the thirld world has caught up! Because that is what CX is rapidly becoming - a third world carrier.

All the aircrew in CX thought they were joining a career airline. You know like BA, QF, AC, UA, NW, DL, AA etc. Now they find they are employed by the likes of ...... well I guess you can guess the rest! A very large number of aircrew in this company have seen their COS and remuneration deteriorate year after year. They have now decided that the time has come to stop the rot. That is what this is about, if we go down the hole then what chance for a better deal for anyone in this region. However, I do believe SQ is now going to have to pay more to stop the drift of captains to KL and this is the way it should be! We move for more money when it is offered on the open and free market. We should not move to another carrier because a corrupt management decides to use us as a weapon to further alienate and disadvantage it's existing workforce. Despite what 411 is trying to say this is not about race or colour. It is about corrupt management, that is all. As for you Liam, how are you going to react when CX decides all freighter crew will be based in KUL, PEN, BOM, DEL, BKK, KHI, etc. on local salaries? If you don't want to go there then you won't have a job anymore. Clearly there are lots of guys who would love to fly big aircraft and live at home in those ports. There are also a lot of suitably qualified captains in those places who could move straight into the LHS of a CX freighter. Why shouldn't CX management recruit them? We apparently do not have a legally binding basing agreement (just a morally binding one!!) So CX offers captain slots in BOM, no takers so they recruit on the local market. This is where we are going if we do not stop this now. The KUL advertisements are just step one in this process. Do you understand now guys?

[411A]

Mole--
I think now you may, just may be starting to get my drift. Your problems at CX can be traced back many years to the stubborn refusal of CX management long ago to exclude local guys from the flight deck. If they had set up a cadet training program in the distant past, you would not NOW have to recruit from afar, because you would have local guys along side you to fight for better wages, working conditions, etc. Instead, your management now can use the excuse of lower paid offshore pilots to continue to chip away at your benefits. Your OWN management, now AND in the past, is your own worst enemy. And you guys have just now started to wake up to this fact?

[fossil fuel]

Ah 411, you really must have a boring life! Every post you make shows increasingly how little you know. And then people take the time to explain the real issues for you, and then a few posts later... there you are again with the same irrelevant point using different words! http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/banghead.gif

Let's see, your argument seems to be "if we started the cadet training program sooner, we wouldn't be having all these problems".

Yeah, good one. Thanks again for all your insightful posts. http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/thebirds.gif



[This message has been edited by fossil fuel (edited 24 April 2001).]

[411A]

fossel fuel--
You're welcome :)

[BUSDRVR]

411, let me give you the info
The CX local pilots / cadets are paid equal to the expats in Hong Kong, ( except for housing) there are some benefits differences in the medical scheme which I do not agree with at all but that is a pilot v management issue:

The point is there is One Asia base! Hong Kong, the pay is to live here with our expensive cost of living. Purchasing goods and services in Hong Kong!!! Which furthers the HKG ecconomy! CX can hire Maylasians to live here in Hong Kong, on Hong Kong Wages, then they ( the Maylasians ) are equal to all pilots here, local and expat, not just a cheaper option! that management is using to divert our attentions from thereal issue's at hand!

[Liam Gallagher]

Mole,

I do not not believe the recruitment of F/Os onto the KUL base threatens any CX pilot. However, the expansion of the base to include Captains in a timeframe consistent with a device to defeat the seniority list should, and I suggest, would, be met with a robust response similar to the recent "extendees" saga. I am unaware of any intention, or hint of intention, on the company's behalf to undertake such a folly.

It seems to me that the recruitment of F/O's onto the KUL base is not in breach of any agreement; perhaps we just negotiated the agreements poorly. In these circumstances it is wholly unaceptable for some of our colleagues (and I exclude you from this comment) to post on PPRUNE in a manner that denigrates the high standards the majority of us seek to attain.

Further, we can only "negotiate" with the company on a finite number of issues and presently this is a non-issue when compared to roster practices and should be treated accordingly IMHO.

[kurmitola]

Mole,
For the record, non of the Captains from SQ have drifted to KUL but a few have gone the opposite on local terms. Lets see the response if CX management were to offer a lets say SYD, BNE, MEL, FRA, SIN, AMS basing at 75% the current salary. You wanna put a bet on it ? Contributing to HKG economy ? how many thousands are you in HKG at the moment? So all the 1300 of SQ guys must be the one supporting Singapore economy now I guess....IMHO, concentrate on getting a better deal for the current pilots in CX now and stop worrying about what other do or do not get. After all , they are all pilots and the are not oblivious to what the market rates are unless they are blind.

[kurmitola]

BTW BD, they dont like to live in HKG and they got a choice, unlike the others already there. And if they dont like it after a few years, they can apply again to the National Carrier and get a job but this option is only applicable to some of us in this world unless you like to go back to the jumpseat, keeping the jepps chart and changing the freq on a QF 744 and be junior to a 22 year old whom are already there...

[Triple Gem]

Herb, CX didnt take Malaysian guys all these while perhaps they can't fly like a bird like u do.

Mole,100 pilots based in KUL? I thought it is 70 for the year 2001 and they are for Malaysia,U.S,Germany and UK.and as far as I know there is no freighter pilots based in HK.

Are u guys in HK still trying to get a raise for us ASPIRANTS in KUL? That's very kind in deed.TQ. The interviewers said this:Join us,take a number at the bottom of the seniority list,may opt to mainstream in 3 years based on seniority.I still dont see how
guys here could ever move ahead of u for progression and affect your livelihood.

Yes yes yes, let's put colour and creed aside.After all every one will change colour and rot when we stop breathing for good.

Some of us here wish we could turn back the clock to be younger and apply to CX for SO positions :)

Any one has a better offer than CX for us in KUL? :)

[AACE]

Yes........join the army.

[mole]

Kurmitola, sorry about the typo meant to say KE not KL. I believe there are a large number of ex SQ captains with Korean Air because of superior remuneration and better working conditions.

Liam "I am unaware of any intention, or hint of intention, on the company's behalf to undertake such a folly."

Why should you be aware? Or do you now work in Nick's office?

I am merely describing a scenario that has surely been considered by the above gentleman. Believe me if he thinks he can get away with it then it will happen. Ironic really ASL getting the ASL mark 2 treatment.

Liam "However, the expansion of the base to include Captains in a timeframe consistent with a device to defeat the seniority list should, and I suggest, would, be met with a robust response similar to the recent "extendees" saga."

A device to defeat the seniority list! Wasn't that exactly the reason behind the formation of ASL in the first place? Does this statement mean that you now admit to making a mistake by joining ASL? Does it mean that you now understand that you and your fellow recruits helped the company defeat the seniority list?

If you do not admit/understand then please explain why it was acceptable for you all to join ASL then but recruiting regionally based, direct entry captains on to the freighter fleet is now totally unnacceptable.

I know it is wrong but am intrigued to discover that you now also think it is wrong. I guess that now you are through the gate it is a different story.

I am interested to see how the KA freighter saga is unfolding. Clearly the DPA has learnt from the past mistakes of the HKAOA.

[This message has been edited by mole (edited 29 April 2001).]

[10sne1]

A recent remark made by a freighter pilot overheard in the Dakota bar "they want to pay them half what we make!"...(not sure where he was based) That's rich!! What goes around comes around.

[joyride]

Anyone fancy a Kul based command?

I thought not..

[mole]

QED Joyride!