Freighter/Passenger Integration

[King Rat]

Well! - In light of the fantastic pay rise afforded the freighter crews this year (approximately 3.5% I think?), it will be interesting to see what happens as the "Integration" begins.....
At present there are 90 freighter pilots eligble to sign over to the passenger fleet.
Of these, 43 are Captains and 47 are FO's.
Word is the management have said that ONLY 42 will be allowed to sign over in the first wave......
What I want to know is:
What happens if the first 42 Captains all sign across to take positions as FO's on the passenger fleet?
With the current freighter crewing agreement in place, would it mean that unless CX could get volunteers from the pax fleets (yeah right!) to operate the freighter, would CXF/AHK grind to a halt?

[jtr]

At the risk of showing my ignorance... don't these guys have to come across at their respective slot on the list, i.e. under some of the pax s/o's? And if so what rank would they come across as?

[ASLr]

WOW, 3.5%!! As I recall a conversation with AOA TP, whilst a group were whindging about loss of GERA (about 40%) TP said not to worry as the AOA was 'going for the pay'! OH??? Now add in the 25% that was just withheld for the IRS(US pilots only). All I can say is that with friends like the AOA who needs enemies? Another point; do CFX get 1 for 1 DT credit?? I doesn't look that way from the little handout we just got. I noticed the pax handout was a bit more extensive. BOHICA!!!

[Goonybird]

ASL'l my heart bleeds for you!!The AOA has more important things to do than negotiate for you. Next time don't jump the seniority list to command.

[Starting 4]

King Rat,
Your fantasy of 42 freighter Capt.'s coming over and taking mainline f/o slots is exactly that....a fanatsy. Haven't met one yet that is willing.
Next, there will be no problem filling the seats if they do. 30 CX f/o's applied for the last posting for freighter left seats. Not to mention the 47 freighter f/o's who can easily fill the seat. Hmmmmmmm......back to the drawing board my friend.

[SteamDriven]

nfc.

[This message has been edited by SteamDriven (edited 27 January 2001).]

[fossil fuel]

Steamdriven,
Your first statement is not quite fair. There has always been a fairly high failure rate with CX commands. Perhaps reflecting more on the training system than on the individual. At most real airlines if a trainee needs more help in a certain area, then he is simply given more help.

As far as freighter guys coming over, surely every single FO must be planning the jump for the 100% pay raise?

[Thrust]

Time to bury the hatchet? (not in the back of the head like Silk ai....)

I've no problem with F/O's coming over to the pax fleet when their time comes. It's all a known quantity now and time to look ahead and work together.

I think that CX pax can also decline a freighter F/O the chance to move across if it effects the freighter operation. This may be a bigger stumbling block than some realise if CX don't start to pay them better. No replacements you see.

It will be interesting to see what occurs closer to the time that the officers can request a move. Good luck. you might need it.

[cpdude]

Goonybird, You must be as foolish as your name! However, you have a gift of breaking camaraderie and team spirit. You should know that most CXF Pilots are now Cathay and not ASL. For the large number of narrow minded individuals, don't blame the ASL pilots for taking what was very arguably a good deal but blame the company for making a new set of conditions and salaries.
Fossil fuel, salary isn't everything as the current policy on transfer to mainline is you go where you are needed and that almost ensures a Hong Kong address. No Thanks!
Thrust, your on the right track. As for when the CXF pilots can move over, the ex-ASL guys can move over as soon as a possition is vacant while the new hires have to wait 3 years.

[This message has been edited by cpdude (edited 27 January 2001).]

[fossil fuel]

cpdude,
Yeah I guess Hong Kong is an option for some, but I was referring to North American guys bidding across to USAB basings. I checked the salary scales, and it's actually closer to a 60% pay rise (not 100% like I guessed earlier). Anyway, are most of you planning to make the jump? If not, why?


[This message has been edited by fossil fuel (edited 27 January 2001).]

[Goonybird]

Dude,It's obvious that I'm foolish....I joined CX!! :)
I'm not breaking camraderie or team spirit.
Those who signed over to CXF did the right thing,especially those who have since joined the AOA. Those that remain at ASL (unless over 55) I have a serious problem with. They have done so only to bypass the seniority list and get a faster command, regardless of who they screw in the process! It's these people I don't want benefiting from my AOA dollars!

I personally think we made a mistake by taking the freighters back. How are we going to force up the salaries when people are happy to join a the frieghter in hopes of getting "B" scales in three years?

One other thing, how can you call 75,000 cdn $$ for a -400 f/o a GOOD deal????? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

[realitycx]

This one is going to run!

My take:

Freighter F/Os

I have no problem with them – indeed much sympathy. They joined at the bottom. In my view they joined “below the bottom” in as much as they have only recently been added to the seniority list.

If I was a freighter F/O, I would be pushing for back dated seniority to date of joining ASL. Why?

1. It is fair
2. The company might buy it – at the moment a whole bunch of freighter F/Os are at the same position on the seniority list, separated only by birthdays. As they come across en masse, the training task on the freighters is going to be huge as they are replaced. Never mind the challenge of recruiting their replacements – chuckle, chuckle :)


Direct Entry Captains

I am afraid I am very much in Goonybird’s camp. Direct Entry Captains will never receive my support – all these guys were mid career when they joined and had been around long enough to have know what was going on. There are plenty of CX F/Os (including, of course the ex Freighter F/Os!!) who would like an early command – cannot see any reason for a pay rise there! If there was some way of paying the ex CX guys their pay scale when they come across -then great. No way will I support a pay rise for Direct Entry Captains

Freighter Direct Entry Captains – they can have what they signed up for – second rate pay and conditions.

[SteamDriven]

nfc.

[This message has been edited by SteamDriven (edited 27 January 2001).]

[fossil fuel]

Steamdriven,
I'm sure it's going to be quite a few years before you can grace us with all your "experience". Believe it or not, we were flying the freighters long before you showed up.

[SteamDriven]

nfc.


[This message has been edited by SteamDriven (edited 27 January 2001).]

[amused]

Realitycx,

Re your comment on direct entry Captain conditions. I am more than happy with what I signed up for and in fact the pay has become better each year. I think it's the best job in the world, almost part time! If I were as unhappy as you, I would leave. Watch that blood pressure now!

[mole]

Steam Driven, you have forced me out of retirement. I had vowed never to post to PPRune again. However, your recent fantasies cause me to wonder where the hell you are coming from. This company never ever needed your experience, it had more than enough on it's books already. What it wanted was cheap pilots, and that is exactly what it got! You all had your reasons for accepting the deal offered, but please don't think you had anything to offer CX it didn't have already. As for moving to the pax fleet, sure why not? Just wait your turn. You may prefer operating the freighter, as lots of us did in the old days. Presumably the only reason you now want to move to the pax fleet is for the extra money. Was applying for a CX job in the normal way too difficult for you and your ASL mates?

[SteamDriven]

nfc!

[This message has been edited by SteamDriven (edited 27 January 2001).]

[Fr8t M8te]

Guys/

For goodness sake stop this stupid puerile squabbling! I know who is doing the winding up on the freight side here and it is one sad character. If he doesn't wind his neck in pdq I will blow his cover with pleasure. You have been warned SD. What is your problem? Just as folk are starting to get along you have to throw your teddy out of the cot! I just hope you will be studiously ignored for your ridiculous outbursts.

I hope our mainline colleagues realise this idiot is not representative of the trash haulers.

Suggest best thing is to knock this thread on the head now and avoid baiting each other which is what the 6th floor will be rubbing their hands in glee over.

[SteamDriven]

Fr8t M8te,

If you don't like my comments that's fine but don't believe i'm alone in my thoughts.

If you want to discuss it outside this forum then put a note in my box next time your in HK - i'm in the phone book.

[cpdude]

Fossil fuel, if you check with Dave R., you will realise, that you cannot bid across to USAB. You can only bid mainline and once accepted, then hope a North American basing is open. Oh, and no turning back if you find out that a N.A. basing is not available after your accepted. Just another twist to make our lives more difficult.
Goonybird, why are you so upset with the ASL guy's. Again, you and others are terribly wrong for blaming them for CX management’s blunders. If I were an ASL F/O of course I would stay ASL and get my command early. Wouldn't you? Remember, the ASL guy's are only the symptom of the problem not the cause! As for salary, with provident fund it's just over 71K USD to start or 105K Cnd. and that’s not bad, even for a yank. For a Canuck, it's better than AC short or long term.

[Goonybird]

CPDUDE,
First off, I never would have joined ASL.I can't understand how anyone could join a company designed solely to undermine one's own profession! Secondly your provident fund is meant as a retirement package, not a salary supplement.In other words you are spending your retirement!!
I'm looking at the contract and I read 75,756 as year 1 Cdn based freighter F/O,year one U.S based freighter f/o 59,232.Plus the 3.5% increment just awarded of course.
Yes, that is better than year 1 at AC, however look a few years ahead when it comes time to retire...you are obviosly spending the provident fund as salary..the ac guy can spend his entire salary because he has a defined benefit pension to count on in retirement. Not to mention that he can pick and choose his roster though his entire career, and has a far superior travel plan! Not saying CX doesn't have some benefits(when living in H.K) but make sure you compare the entire package not just year one salary. An A320 capt at ac makes more than a 744 capt at CXF.
My beef is with the original ASL guys and the management who created it, not those who join CXF.

[cpdude]

Goonybird, The salary you quoted is correct however, ALL North American new hire CXF F/O's have been hired and based in the USA as Vancouver was closed for any new hires. IE. we are all paid in USD and follow the US salary scheme.
cpdude

[nudger]

Cpdude... No it's just under 71K as quoted!

If your happy to include your 15.5% provident fund as salary that's fine but I hope you've got rich folks!

I'd be very cautious about spending that money and you should actually be topping it up with at least 10% of your own funds if not another 15% to provide for a reasonable retirement!!

[ASLr]

Gooneybird <<ASLr my heart bleeds for you!!The AOA has more important things to do than negotiate for you. Next time don't jump the seniority list to command. >>
Very interesting comment, Gooneybird, and it does says a lot about why the AOA is totally ineffective as a collective bargaining agent for the Cathay pilots. First of all, you play right into the hands of management by being derisive. Disunity is what allows management to beat us (collectively) over the head. If I am hearing this right, you are agreeing that it is ok for the CXF pilots to work for the freighter C scale. Would that be akin to the A scale agreeing with the concept of a B scale or the AOA taking no position when ASL was formed? If the AOA does not negotiate for the CXF pilots am I to assume the B scale F/Os who are taking commands on the freighter are considered to be, well, scabs; not worthy of representation? Do you think that by having a C scale, it will in some way elevate your pay scale? Has the B scale allowed the A scale to get decent raises? It seems to me that when different scales are allowed, everything gets dragged to the middle. If the freighter scale is kept very low, I can’t see management handing out A and B raises when they know they don’t have to. And on a personal note, Gooney, you may be making a serious error of assumption. Your knee-jerk reaction to my post is immature, and not well thought out. Although I can relate to blowing off steam, I think you ought to give this one a bit more thought.

[Fatbastard]

CP- 71K/105K ok for a yank? Sorry Dude, 105K is second year 767 F/O pay...Oh, and then there's the retirement....why would, and what kind of yanks are accepting these conditions? Must have something pretty bad in ones past eh?

[ASLr]

There is no pilot shortage in the US. It is still very competitive. CXF guys hired by United last fall won't start class until May, maybe. $71k for a turboprop guy is a huge pay raise while they are waiting for their real job to come along. I doubt there's much wrong with their resumes given they are hired out of the freighters after they gain some heavy time. And how many 2nd years guys are in the RHS of a 767 in the US? Not many.