Coppers and Copters

[Cyclic Hotline]

Ha Ha Ha Ha, and they STILL defend their actions! Glad it ain't my taxes paying for these guys.

Helicopter scrambled for apple-eating driver

By Danielle Demetriou
25 January 2005

A woman stopped by police for holding an apple while driving was fined £60 yesterday in a case that had involved 10 court appearances.

Sarah McCaffery, 23, a nursery nurse from Hebburn, South Tyneside, had not taken a bite out of the apple but was holding the fruit in her right hand as she negotiated a left-hand turn on 4 December 2003.

She was stopped by PC Lee Butler, who issued her with a £30 fine as part of a Northumbria Police drive against food or drink at the wheel.

The incident led to the dispatching of a police helicopter in order to take aerial photographs and videos, as well as nine preliminary hearings.

Ms McCaffery was fined £60 plus £100 costs after South Tyneside magistrates found that she was not in proper control of her car.

Ms McCaffery's solicitor criticised Northumbria Police and the Crown Prosecution Service for ordering aerial photographs, an aerial video shot and a video recording from a police car for the trial.

Geoffrey Forrester told the bench: "Nothing illustrates the nonsense of this case more than the resources that have been thrown at it."

However, Northumbria Police defended the proceedings, which cost £425, excluding the aerial work.

A police spokesman said: "It is vital that motorists are in proper control of their vehicles at all times and are fully concentrating on their driving."

[SASless]

Can you imagine if she had been applying her mascara or lipstick?

Gosh the Special Response team and K-9 units would have rolled up in full battle gear.

Whatever was she thinking....such aggregious behaviour....no respect for the travelling public at all!

Reckon a Cop ever used a hand to talk on his Dick Tracy Wrist Telly Talker while driving a Panda?:p

[Delta Wun-Wun]

Now if we issued all Forces with Apache Gun- Ships.It would save on court costs....:} :ok:

[flyer43]

Does this mean that one-armed people will be banned from driving?

[airborne_artist]

How could they have got a prosecution if she'd been caught eating the apple in a tunnel?

[teeteringhead]

...and surely smoking has to be the most dangerous thing....

[and I speak as a "non" but not an "anti"]

[Banjo]

a perfectly normal and correct response to the situation..you can't let these health nuts eat their dispicable product just anywhere.

[B Sousa]

Its good to see Government at its worst. it gives you hope for improvement...........

[Bertie Thruster]

Attended a 2 car road traffic accident early the the other day; one driver had appeared to have drifted across centre of a narrow country road on a bend and hit an oncoming car head on.

Both drivers trapped and seriously injured.

The driver of the car on the wrong side of the road had her breakfast toast trapped in her hand across her chest by the caved in dashboard.

[dmanton300]

Driving through a large Dorset town the other day, woman coming the other way had a dictaphone in her hand talking into it and didn't even notice the car I was driving with big blue lights and stuff on it. She was looking down at her dictaphone whilst talking. I guess it's not so much what you're holding as where your focus is.

[purple chopper]

Don’t just believe all you read and don’t base your opinions on the work the police carryout based on the news worthy sound bites the press decide to use, when did they ever publish the truth.

She was fined just £60 with £100 costs in a case. Tyneside magistrates heard how the traffic officer had pulled her car over at 8.20am. He was in his stationary patrol car when he saw her driving with her right hand by her face and thought she might have been using a mobile phone, the court heard. Discovering she was holding an apple he issued her with the fixed-penalty notice.

She vowed to fight the prosecution. Magistrates heard that a fixed wing spotter plane was brought in to fly over Sarah's route, taking pictures. The force helicopter repeated the exercise before a squad car travelled the route with a video camera attached. Chris Kay, prosecuting, said the cost of the case was £425, not including the cost of aerial photography and video footage.
Police said filming the local road system from its helicopter as part of the case against Miss McCaffery cost just £66 since it "was already on an operation in South Tyneside". Police defended the decision to use the aircraft, saying: "We were obliged to gather all appropriate evidence to present our case. Costs don't have a bearing on any decision to prosecute."

But Sarah blasted the verdict, saying: "I was in complete control of my car. I was in second gear when I saw the blue lights and I thought, 'What have I done wrong?' The policeman came to my door and said 'I hope that apple was worth it - it's just cost you £30'. I couldn't believe it, I was in total shock. I hadn't done anything wrong."

[flyer43]

dmanton300

You've hit the nail right on the head. I guess the media report is typical of mose media reports in such situations, leave out the pertinent stuff to make somebody look silly.
It does seem rather strange that anybody would drive for any length of time holding an apple without taking a bite out of it - just what was she really doing that made the police interested. Very little info on that one.
Back to an ealier comment by teeteringhead regarding smoking. What do the police think of somebody lighting a cigarette whilst driving? Surely that must be a huge distraction.

(Yet another reformed smoker!!)


Oops purple chopper's posting crossed mine - nice to hear the real story occasionally.....

[Thomas coupling]

From my sources, the helo didnt get good enough piccies so a FW had to be called in to do the job!

Total bill: £10,000+ just so CPS had a watertight case against a defenceless member of the public.

Great publicity methinks. Good PR with their customers.

I don't condone what the 'victim' did, but there has to be an element of fair play/common sense/reality here, surely. is the final message sent out by this police force CONSTRUCTIVE, or otherwise?

Should the police prosecute every time you take your hands off the wheel to change gear in a manual?

Switching the radio on.

Turning whith crossed arms......

[SASless]

Ah God...spare me....turning with crossed arms! The dreaded MOT driving test cardinal sin!

I swear you folks have got to get a life over there! What can be so difficult about driving? Having been a producer of traffic tickets....on both sides of the equation.....there are more important things for that nice Copper to have been doing than writing a ticket to some woman for holding an apple in her grubby mitt.

Why pray tell ,could he not have very nicely told the woman off for her gross disregard for human life by committing such a heinous act...waved his finger under her nose for a bit....clucked his tongue at her and sent her on her way a bit better educated upon the traffic code?

Forget the costs...forget all the other rubbish surrounding this event....there are serious driving offenses going on all around us every day that are genuinely dangerous....that are being ignored.

Ever watch cars around big trucks....I would suggest the Coppers think about some reckless endangerment arrests. Same goes for the truckers who tailgate the vehicle in front of them....put handcuffs on them. Ever watch some idiot go all the way across five lanes of traffic to dart off an exit....where's the cops then?

Of course...we must remember...this is in a land where a home owner must offer tea and stickies to a midnight burglar and cannot drop the guy in his tracks by blasting a huge hole in his carcass while he is toting off the silverware in the middle of the night.

Next thing you know....if you don't have your bicycle clips on...you will be in front of the judge explaining your self.

[semirigid rotor]

PC - glad you brought some facts to this thread. I can't believe that members of this forum who are the first to have a go at jouno's for inaccurate reporting of aviation stories, accepted this piece of tabloid drivell without a second thought. :(

TC - £10,000 for the follow up footage for the court case. Your source must be the jouno who originally wrote the story!

It is good to see the police doing their job, gathering all the evidence before presenting this to the CPS, who then decide whether to prosecute or not. The arial footage would have shown all the road hazards the woman would have passed while not in full control of her vehicle. It would be interesting to read the policemans statement on just how well she was driving - or not :sad:

[helicopter-redeye]

"It is vital that motorists are in proper control of their vehicles at all times and are fully concentrating on their driving."

Personally I find this difficult when being persued by a helcopter.

Must focus. Must focus.

[MightyGem]

Redeye, you must be more observant than most. :rolleyes: The srotes
around here don't know that we are there until they stop and try and
run away. :}

[helicopter-redeye]

My supa accute rotary recognition hearing locates the type by the hum of its tail rotor (or notar hum).

I just wish I could spot the patrol cars as well......


:(

[Flying Lawyer]

semirigid rotor

Sorry if I'm being a bit slow here, but what facts has 'Purple Chopper' brought to the thread which makes any difference to the story as first posted by Cycllic Hotline?

You say it would be interesting to read the policeman's description of how well she was driving - or not.
If it was the manner of her driving which attracted his attention -
(1) it's surprising there's no suggestion in either report that she was driving badly - it would have been the main thrust of the prosecution case if she had been,
and
(2) she would have been prosecuted for driving without due care and attention - she wasn't.

I'm all for the police preparing cases thoroughly. However, we do hear rather a lot about the police being short of manpower and financial resorces. That being so, is it surprising some people think this wasn't exactly a sensible use of stretched manpower and resources?

I've prosecuted and defended much more serious cases than that where we've coped without any difficulty whatsoever using just an extract from an OS map.
What an absurd over-reaction to one of the most minor road traffic offences. I resist the temptation to over-react by looking it up, but I don't think it even carries penalty points.

I suspect the truth is probably:
PC thinks she's on the phone - Got her!
Turns out he's wrong - she's about to eat an apple.
Feels silly and, instead of giving her a warning and going off to do something useful, gives her a fixed penalty notice and the benefit of his sarcasm.
Instead of rolling over and accepting it as I guess 99% of motorists would, she decides to fight it because she thinks it's stupid.
Immediate confrontation - possible loss of face - so they throw resources at it without regard to the public cost.

[SASless]

Again...a succinct expanation of a situation from FL. Me thinks he knows, even if vicariously,the truth of the matter.

The old "You can't do this to me!" gauntlet flung forth in challenge to the Man!

Results, almost invariably, in a "I will show you!" response.

Now I will have to admit..that is pretty sexy...airplanes, helicopters, video, 8x10 glossy photos suitable for framing.

Did not Arlo Guthrie write a song called "Alice's Restaurant" about a similar over application of police assets one time.

How does that go..."You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant....it's just a little way around the back ...to Alice's...." ah you know what I mean.

"the man asked me...as I sat on the Group W bench...son...have you rehabilitated yourself? " "Now...he wanted to know if I was moral enough to kill people and burn their houses down....after being convicted of littering!"
:E

[semirigid rotor]

Flying Lawyer: OK I glanced over Cyclic Hotline's thread; as it read (at the start) word for word as was reported in the London Evening Standard yesterday. Guilty as charged.

But, the police prepared a case and thought it worthwhile. The CPS agreed that a prosecution was likely given the evidence and took it to court, the magistrates agreed that the law was breached - that's the system.

The aircraft probably combined this task with several others so the flight time was minimal.

As an aside I have lost count of the number of times people have nearly hit my car or have nearly caused an accident in their car when on the phone or sorting CD's etc. If was down to me I would tear their licence up on the spot :E

[Earpiece]

Semi Rigid,

I think I have heard enough.

When was the last time you blew your nose whilst driving or do you always pull into the side of the road (or use the sleeve on your police flying suit), like the very good boy you are?

Also, how often do you see a jam sandwhich driver using a microphone whilst pursuing some scrote (you see it on chopper copper television!)? I see policemen driving whilst using mobile phones more often than they should use them and I should see them - so where do we draw the line? Should we pull over, call 999 and report them - or is that wasting police time?

The policeman might have the power but he should not abuse the resources available without criticism and, when he does, without some sort of serious penalty?

Earpiece

"Believe nothing you hear and half of what you see and you will be nearer the truth"

[dmanton300]

Also, how often do you see a jam sandwhich driver using a microphone whilst pursuing some scrote

In my force? I'd say just about never. To pursue you have to be pursuit trained. If you're pursuit trained you will be in a traffic car with an oppo, or at the least in an incident car with an oppo. Ergo you are double crewed. In a pursuit the driver does the driving and his oppo does the commentary/ rt work. And if a pursuit driver DOES find himself in a single crewed vehicle with a pursuit on his hands all our new in car Airwaves sets are hands free anyway.

[Camp Freddie]

it seems to me that there is a increasing tendency for the media / police to view any secondary tasks as dangerous as far as car driving is concerned, so at the moment the holding the phone is outlawed, next i guess we will be told we cant operate the stereo and drive safely, if it comes to that what about the wipers and the indicators and the lights ! dont they all detract from the business of driving ?

wheras you get in your helicopter on day 1 of flight school and they do nothimg but load you up with tasks, flying, talking, messing about with maps, and they even had me drawing on maps with my left hand years ago.

seems to me that multi-tasking is perfectly possible and i hope the nanny state does not interfere with the driving experience any more

regards

CF

[ShyTorque]

Another one to make me think that the police appear to be losing the plot. Talk about going for "soft targets"....

Anyone know where I can get a hands free apple? :rolleyes:

[Whirlygig]

Never tried bobbing for apples? You could rig up a similar system except the apple could be suspended from a piece of string.

Alternatively, perhaps your wife could hold... the apple... for you!

Cheers

Whirls

[ShyTorque]

Hearing that suggestion reminds me of a certain news story of a few years ago about a certain "East Enders" lady, Gillian Taylforth, I think. However, didn't they still get prosecuted even though she was allegedly "bobbing for apples" while he was doing the driving? ;)

[Simon853]

It all supports my crazy hypothesis that the Government actually likes and even seeks to encourage crime...

For example: Burglary - if you batter an intruder you end up paying a fortune for decent legal support, MPs are mostly lawyers by trade and so it makes work for their brethren. Of course all the fees are then taxed and that's good for the exchequer! Should the burglars get away, (and we are encouraged to let them), we have to claim on our insurance to replace our stolen goods. That means we pay VAT on the replacements, good for Mr. Brown's red briefcase again, and we're helping the economy by keeping all those stores in business, and their staff employed, off the dole queue and paying PAYE. Then of course our insurance company puts up our premium next year, increasing their revenues, and we pay more tax on that. Think of the drastic negative effect we'd have on the economy if we were allowed to shoot burglars!!!

As for elevating the eating of groceries at the wheel to a criminal level, obviously that's good too! It adds to the government statistics to show just how dangerous our roads are, yet another person not in proper control of their vehicle, the situation's getting worse (next year they'll add sneezing while steering to the list of hanging offences), obviously indicating that more needs to be done to clamp down on this dangerous trend and to issue more fines to teach us all a valuable lesson, that even after we've been robbed at the pump for 80% fuel duty, we're still duty bound to expect to provide revenue at every opportunity. It wont be long before they decide that broken down motorists need also be taught a severe lesson, it's obviously their fault that their vehicles are inadequately maintained, are causing an obstruction (slows down traffic of others seeking to do their bit for the economy by getting to work on time) and fines them too. Not only that, but those of us who suffer by being late for work because of them and our employers will be able to apply to their insurance companies for recompense, their insurance will go up and again, more cash in the government pot through the tax.

It's all a conspiracy, I swear it... pretty soon, they'll just abandon salaries and any kind of personal income and we'll all just be filiing expenses.

Si

[Capn Notarious]

Next thing you know....if you don't have your bicycle clips on...you will be in front of the judge explaining your self.

As a cyclist let me tell you clips are essential: stops the wasps going up yer trouser legs!

[J.A.F.O.]

South Tyneside magistrates found that she was not in proper control of her car
That's all there is to it - there was a case to answer and everything possible was done to secure a prosecution.

Spend time, like the police officer who stopped her, at fatal road traffic collisions or telling the family of the deceased how it happened and you may think differently about this case.

[R1Tamer]

"That's all there is to it - there was a case to answer and everything possible was done to secure a prosecution.

Spend time, like the police officer who stopped her, at fatal road traffic collisions or telling the family of the deceased how it happened and you may think differently about this case."

J.A.F.O.

Interesting comment albeit a tad over dramatic. In fourteen years I've been to and supervised the handling of hundreds of fataccs and seraccs and not one involved an apple or any other kind of fruit for that matter.

This is a plain and simple case of police/cps saving face after a bit of over zealous ticketing.......! Maybe the girl just failed the attitude test.

[Cyclic Hotline]

Maybe they are right?

I have never really experienced any distraction while driving and doing something else at the same time.

But last night was different. I nearly crashed as a result of having my attention divided between driving like a maniac and shining my laser pointer at a police helicopter that was hovering overhead.

They actually might have a point there! :)

[MightyGem]

In fourteen years I've been to and supervised the handling of hundreds of fataccs and seraccs and not one involved an apple or any other kind of fruit for that matter.
But then again, some have...
Attended a 2 car road traffic accident early the the other day; one driver had appeared to have drifted across centre of a narrow country road on a bend and hit an oncoming car head on.
The driver of the car on the wrong side of the road had her breakfast toast trapped in her hand across her chest by the caved in dashboard. (Page 1)

[Vfrpilotpb]

City of Liverpool Police, are in my view some of the fairest in the land ( and I aint talking hair colour).

Comming away from a meeting were a lot of people like me had just discovered that we had all lost many thousands of pounds in a company who had gone bust, suffice to say I was not a happy bunny, so screeching along the Dock road to get back to my office I was also on the mob to arranged a contract killer for the bankrupt guys, when lo and behold out of my tiny blindspot popped a Police motorcyclist waving at me to pull over,

After a few minutes of discussion as to why I was speeding on his road, he looked me in the eye and said, "we all have some sort of problem, calm down, think of your children, and drive carefully out of Liverpool , in fact I will escort you out"

No 1 I felt like a Nurd for allowing my temper to stop me thinking safety.
No 2 I felt like a child for being chastised.
No 3 I started to feel better when he didn't book me
No 4 I felt elated when I left Liverpool, with a Solitary Chips man waving at me.

I felt, and still feel lucky to have met such a Policeman, I have met many who arn't worthy of the uniform, But when I drive in built up areas I still today remember the words of that Policemen.

His words did more than all the misdemeaner tickets ever could have done!

PeterR-B
Vfr

[Texdoc]

Have you passed your attitude test lately.

If you ever have a chance of getting out of a minor infringement you will have the final say... pass the attitude test.

"Yes Sir, No Sir, That was a bad idea Sir and I should have had more sense Sir, Sorry Sir" as opposed to:

"What the F*&k are you pulling me over for, I pay your wages you know isn't there some rapist you should be catching"

But then sometimes you will just have to wear it... I do know (seen it first hand) a Traffic Cop who has actually given their own mother a ticket.

"Mum you should know better...." :suspect:

"This ones for all those dodgy lunches you used to make me, and the time you asked if I was wearing clean underwear in front of the entire football team"

[MightyGem]

Hey Peter, perhaps he was just making sure that you left the city. :}

[2Sticks]

It's just such a shame that, if a prosecution followed because as a result of an over-zealous policeman or maybe a reaction to a road user who wasn't servile enough, that the magistrates (who are supposed to be balanced members of the community and not a big stick for the CPS) couldn't see the prosecution for what it was. But before we agree that indeed it is dangerous for someone to be eating an apple, or proven to be so by eating toast, we should consider how many preventable accidents there are while doing something that is legal. Just to add to the many examples and hopefully further illustrate the stupidity of this prosecution, think about some of the following scenarios involving 'legal' actions:
- Making an adjustment to the settings on the in-car GPS
- Making an outgoing call on the mobile i.e. dialling the number while phone is in legal fixed car kit
- Trying to find an unfamiliar button on the car radio to change over band or to RDS or to some other function.
- Smoking cigarettes - just a minute I'll just ignite a naked flame and apply it to the cigarette while I'm driving.
- Oh dear, I've just knocked off the top of my lighted cigarette into my crutch while pulling down my sun visor. Fuuuuuuu*******************in' hell!
None of the above of course is as serious as holding an apple.
I'm all in favour of preventive measures but this is going too far!
2Sticks

[J.A.F.O.]

Surely the point isn't whether it is or is not safe to hold fruit whilst driving, the point is that she was not in proper control of her car - that's why she was stopped, that's why she was prosecuted.

If people can't control their cars then they hit other cars and people end up dead. No, she didn't kill anybody; yes, she was only holding a piece of fruit but the point is that Northumbria Police must be running this campaign for a reason and that reason is probably to try and have some impact (no pun intended) on the number of people killed or injured on their roads.

She wasn't prosecuted under the Holding Fruit Whilst Driving a Motor Vehicle Act of 1923. She was prosecuted for not being able to control her car.

It doesn't matter whether you believe that you can safely eat a four course dinner, call your friends, tune your radio, light a Havana cigar or juggle live mice whilst driving - what matters is that she couldn't control her car. The police officer said so and the magistrate believed that, endex.

[oldbeefer]

If holding an apple is that dangerous, how do we get away with flying at 50ft, at 120kts, using a map, changing squawk, altimeter setting, R/T freq...............................................?

[Thomas coupling]

JAFO: It's not whether shes guilty or not guilty...og course she's guilty as sin itsef, but.....

Cracking the preverbial with a 20 ton hydraulic sledge hammer is a bit OTT.

She should have been stopped, charged ..end of story. Let the magistrates court take it from there. Police job over.

If she fights and kicks and screams, let the judge decide..

Choppers and video and fixed wing and 9 appearances in court.....c'mon, where's the sense in this??

Load of bollocks.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Hey TC,


Despite the way your Boss-Fellah treats us, the populie, I almost see a sign of rebelion in your answer!


Mighty,


I hadn't thought of that one!

Peter R-B

[chopperpilot47]

I'm just curious, why did the lady have a need to carry an apple in her hand when she was driving? What was the excuse? Wasn't the situation that she could have paid the ticket and called it a day rather than plead not guilty and force the prosecution to prove the case. No doubt her Lawyer enjoyed every expensive moment.

Regards,

Chopperpilot 47

[Heliport]

She was about to eat it.
Excuse? No idea. Perhaps she was hungry?
Her defence seems to have been that she still had full control of the vehicle so hadn't committed an offence.
Yes, she could just have paid the ticket even though she didn't think she was guilty. Maybe most people would, however petty they thought the PC was. Her principles, and outrage at his pettiness, obviously didn't allow her to do that.
It cost her a lot more, but maybe she has some comfort from the knowledge that she did all she could, and didn't just give in to what she thought was wrong. On the other hand, she might be even more frustrated by the magistrates upholding the PC's actions.

[PANews]

OK cops ........... hands up those that have never driven to an emergency call [at something beyond the normal speed limit] and
1. changed gear
2. regularly used the radio or p/r mike button to transmit a carefully hought out commentary on what is happening....
3. switched on the siren/bell
4. switched off the siren/bell
5. shaken their fist at the pr*** who will not get out of the bleeding way.... etc etc

Not many I guess.

And how many of the above feature in the standard car course?

Not many I guess.

And how many have I transgressed ........

...... every one!

And do not tell me I was TRAINED!

Holier than thou?

[Nigel Osborn]

I've known 3 people who only had 1 hand and all have driving licences. Does this mean the licence issuing authority should be prosecuted? 1 of them even has a cpl!
I suppose manual cars should be banned in case you feel the need to change gear.:mad:

[semirigid rotor]

I can't believe this has run and run. The woman commited an offence, was found guilty in court - end of story.

Flying Lawyer gave a plausable scenario to what happened, I will give another:

Woman driving along using her mobile, Old Bill pulls out behind and follows for a distance. Its against the law and that is his job. Woman sees Copper in rear view mirror and swops phone for apple, Copper does not see the swop. He gives the woman a tug, taps on the window, sees the apple, twigs what has happened and sarcasticly says "that apple is going to cast you £30" The woman does not pick up that she has been rumbled and thinks she has a case and decides to fight. Policeman puts case together for the CPS and they decide to make an example, so that the next time someone decides to try and swop a phone for some other object you will not get away with it. End result magistrates agree. Perhaps the press did not print the full facts.

For those who have trivilised this; remember what under pins the "not under full control of your car" law. 10 people a day die on UK roads, one of which will be on the hard shoulder of a motorway. 10 yesterday, 10 the day before and 10 will die tommorrow. That carnage (that the press ignore) will not end until people start to reconise that they do not have the right to drive badly, and that it is not always someone else who is involved.

Rant over, got to be up early, the local hunt are having an early start and my horse should be fit enough to keep up with the pack :E

[Heliport]

The woman commited an offence - That's a matter of opinion. Not everyone agrees.
..... was found guilty in court - True.
..... end of story. For her, yes.

The case has attracted widespread discussion and comment in the newspapers and on television, with most members of the public criticising the PC for being so petty and the magistrates for convicting her.
As the police used a helicopter to gather evidence for such a trivial offence, it seems reasonable to discuss the case here.

Some people claim it's impossible to hold an apple and be in control of a car - others think that's nonsense. Most of us drive so we're perfectly capable of forming an opinion.

Perhaps the press did not print the full facts.
Are you suggesting the PC told the court she swopped a phone for an apple and the Press didn't bother to report that part?
Or that she wasn't holding an apple over the distance he followed her, but only for the last few seconds, and the PC decided to lie about that?


Heliport

Hope the hunt went well. :)

[semirigid rotor]

Heliport Quote : and the PC decided to lie about that?

In court? - that's a dangerous road to go down. Lets not go there.

The hunt was great, and my horse is back to his old self.
:D