Endorsements - free or fee?

[masteroff]

Hi all, just a quick question, if an employer needs you to fly a particular type of heli, is it normal practice to make the pilot pay for her/his endorsement on the type?

Just asking as I have'nt been in the industry long and have no idea about it.

Thanks in advance.:confused:

[spinwing]

..... Generally I would say No! ...

But it does kinda depends on your experience level and what skills you bring into the company, the A/c type, the company (and its past experience with people buggering off after receiving the rating) and what they are going to pay you afterwards ???

Some more specifics would be nice?

;) ;)

[masteroff]

I would love to tell you more, if I new. Try to talk to nail things down but the chief is always too busy. Then the phone rings........ :mad: it!

[Fun Police]

i would say "no", especially after how much a CPL costs these days. if a company hires you to fly one of their aircraft then it is the cost of doing business. i worked for an outfit that demanded that i pay for a H500 endorsement at full charter rate, and the reasoning was that people left after they got it and went to another company. i stayed for 2 years and then left and still got the same lecture, my point is if that is what they are worried about then there is possibly another reason why people wont stay ie, it's not a good place to work.
this might not be true in your case but it certainly was in mine.

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

masteroff,

Personally I've never paid for one (I did sign time bonds of 2 years each for a conversion to a large type and for my CAA I/R), but as others have said it really depends on which company you work for, what sort of contract they have and whether they have had a large turnover of people. If the last is the case, my advice would be to check out why they left, because if they got conversions and ran, they probably have other problems.

The biggest companies, especially those in the oilpatch tend to go the time bond route rather than make you pay.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers,

NEO.

[Mogg]

Necessity is the mother of all endorsements; the Chief is not going to let a machine sit on the ground for lack of a driver.

Cheers Mog
:cool: :E

[Helinut]

I believe that the UK offshore companies use the bond approach (no pun intended) for major stuff like the IR. However, they were affected by their experiences. One of them was putting newby CPLs through a third party IR course a few years ago (back when they were recruiting). They were using a bond to get back at least 5 years service following their expensive investment. Then they hit a problem - a number of their CPLs repeatedly failed their IR tests (and got the advice : "don't bother to send them back" from the examiners). This put them out of pocket to the tune of £25K per failure. After that, they were understandably reluctant to put others through the process. They devised an alternative: a conditional job offer. We will offer you a job if you get an IR.

Not saying this is right: just the way that they have operated.

UK Onshore, my experience has been that most ratings provided by an employer are effectively bonded. If you leave in say less than 5 years, they require payment of the whole or part of the rating cost. I have had some bad experiences where diabolically poor type ratings have been costed at sky-high effective rates that put them way above the real cost.

It is really supply and demand though.

[masteroff]

The fact that its going to cost me over 5 weeks pay to do it is a bit daunting, especially since I get bugger all moolah anyway. Its not on oil work, its charter work. There has been no history of people leaving after they get their endorsement to date. All my other jobs (outside aviation) have been like - "well, we need you to drive that front end loader so we will pay for you to get a ticket".

Funny business, this aviation.......:suspect:

[Helinut]

It sure is, and the grass on the other planet is greener! :rolleyes:

A suggestion: at least get the rating on a payback basis. It gives the operator a real incentive to give you the work to allow you to pay off the cost. This is not great, but at least you don't have to pay a big wedge up front. Otherwise, what is to stop them making you redundant the day after you pay for the rating??

[High Nr]

Putting on the other hat for a minute.

If I applied to be a Brain Surgeon, but I was a General Practioner with no qualifications for the position advertised. I would not get the job.

What makes you think that the employer shoud take on an unqualified person? [unendorsed].

If you want a job, then school, prepare and train yourself to address the employment criteria, and there you go.

[masteroff]

High Nr,

I understand your way of thinking, but I am already employed there. Its not like I am applying for the job, I was told this is what I am going to do. Anyway, I suppose the cost of flying never ends.......

[Fun Police]

High Nr, do you suggest that every pilot (low time or not) go out and buy themselves endorsements on every machine because they are or will eventually be looking for work?

[High Nr]

Look at it this way:

If you wish to get the position [any position within any industry] then you have a far better chance of being successful if you are qualified to do the task at hand.

I have argued this aspect before on Pprune:

Assume your advertised employment criteria is for a H500 pilot, but you also have S92's in your fleet!!

Along comes two young pilots each with a similar experience base as far as hours is concerned, however one has bothered to pass his ATPL subjects, his IREX and bought his H500 endorsement from the mob up the tarmac here.

Guess who would be a head in front?

[pohm1]

If you are looking for work with a firm that only operate 206's, then I would say having a 206 endorsement would be a distinct advantage.

If you are working for a firm who operate 206's, that then goes out and buys an AS350, if they need you to fly it, they should pay for the training. It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect you to give them some kind of 'return of service' to ensure that they get their money's worth.

If you are in your first job, flying an R44 and the owner is saying "pay for a jetranger endorsement to get some turbine time" then the decision is yours. He benefits because you pay, you benefit because you get more experience and turbine time. If the boss is turning down flights because there is no one rated or he cannot roster sufficient endorsed pilots then he should be paying

It wouldn't be around Ayers Rock would it?

[paco]

Yes, it shows initiative if you get a type rating - I know of one guy with 400 hours who had obtained his own AS 355/A109 and Puma ratings, plus an IR, so it shows it can be done. And he's flying the puma right now.

High Nr is sort of right in the situation he proposes, but I have always employed people on the basis of personality first, training second, within reason (I'm not in the business of giving away licences!). Additionally, the sort of type rating the average inexperienced pilot can afford won't be worth much, unless it comes from a very good source - I would rather do it myself.

Finally, I'm sick and tired of companies expecting pilots to "invest" in them without getting any benefits. If they are worried about pilots leaving, get off their a*se and make that pilot want to stay. Asking them to pay for their own type rating, when they will be making money out of them, is not a good way to start. And to do it at full charter rate is exploitation!

Personally, I would be looking for another company, but I know how hard it is to get and keep that first job. I would be off as soon as a better one comes along, though.

Phil

[masteroff]

Guys and Girls, big thanks to everyone that replied. I wanted to get the general feel of what the rest of the community thought and thats exactly what I got. The good thing about rotorheads is when you need info, you get exactly that. Many thanks.

[Fun Police]

ya well, it's fun spoutin' off!
i feel that endorsements are cheap enough (for lights anyway), that if an employer thinks you are worth hiring then (s)he should shell out for it. i do agree with High Nr and co. when it comes to IR ratings and such. in those cases the employee and employer could negotiate some sort of contract in order to recompense for the training because the expertise and experience will walk with the pilot at some point (most likely).

[Rotor1]

Masteroff

If your cp wants you to fly for him on that next type he will give you an endorsment, he did for me in the past so he will for you, with him you will have to patent though he moves very slowly. he is just seeing if he can get you to pay.

Cheers Rotor1 :ok: