Qantas screws more employees.

[Mr Chairman]

Once again Qantas uses all its resources to come down on its employees, more people stood down for not working overtime. Aircraft not being maintened to standard. Where will it all end?

[Ultralights]

it wont end, untill everyone is indian or chinese. then they will start all over again.

[HotDog]

Kung Hei Fat Choy.:}

[Chimbu chuckles]

Don't you mean Gong sie fat choi?

[schnauzer]

Not that verification of QF screwing it's employees is needed, but what exactly are the details of these latest stand down's, Mr Chairman?

If this starts to become a regular occurence, we will be left without LAME's. And as a pilot, if the aircraft ain't fixed, it doesn't go flying. Then the airline doesn't make money and the bean counters don't get their bonus....

Naive, Yes?

[Mr Chairman]

Basically no one is happy with the the EBA negotiations which are on going. The company over the last few EBAs have being asking for a lot and generally getting it, more flexible rostering, permanent nightshift, etc etc. However the return from the company have being disappointing 3% 3%. Now I know what a lot of people are saying, you are lucky to have a job and things are tough out there. Dixon says it when ever he opens his mouth. But really things ain't that bad, there is a strong economy, low unemployment and Qantas is making money, lots of money. Dixon recently said QF will improve on last years record results. But yet the offer on the EBA is still no better than the CPI which is running at I believe about 3%. So 3% pay increase minus tax leaves about a pay increase of 1.5% which is aback ward step. This is especially so when you take into consideration the pay increases that various other organisations got over the last few years,

Police 14% . Nurses 10%. NSW Train Drivers 16%
So who is now happy with the Geoff Dixons offer of 3%, no one. Some one has to break this idea of Dixons of only 3% and if it has to be Engineering by having an overtime ban then so be it. And its begining to bite already, Bruce Deahm Line Maint Manager was down in MEL during the week and he was spitting chips about it threating people with there jobs if we did'nt buckle under. Individuals who have being supporting the over time ban have being questioned at length by there managers to try and get some one to admit that there is an offical directive from the union (there isn;t one) and then start sacking people. Rumour is if Deahm can't keep the workers down then he will be looking for a new job. So nobody is working overtime there ain't enought people to do the work and aircraft are going late or not getting the work done at all.

[Binoculars]

I comment as a complete outsider looking in, and I will comment only once because I may be well off the track. I have no vested interest.

QF is only one company to employ the "you're lucky to have jobs at all" line while lining their executives' pockets, but it's the most obvious target on an aviation forum. I'd just like to add here that the LAME's are in a more powerful industrial situation than perhaps a lot of them realise.

If FA's strike, chaos ensues, not because the routine safety of a flight is put in danger, but because of regulatory imperatives. Laws can be changed very quickly by a hostile government with a compliant Senate.

As Kaptin M will ruefully tell you, if pilots withdraw their services the law of supply and demand will mean that while there may be temporary chaos, things will revert to normal fairly quickly, and probably to the financial benefit of the company. (Sorry to oversimplify things Kaptin, but you know what I mean).

If, on the other hand, all LAME's were to withdraw their services, the immediate fix-it is not quite so readily available. The law of supply and demand works both ways, people, and those who think that running a company consists only of screwing the staff (sorry, human resources) as far as possible to appease the shareholders, but more directly the executives, eventually find the reality is somewhat different.

Unfortunately when it all goes tits up, those executives take their multi million dollar packages as per their contracts (I could list a whole swag of publicly listed companies starting with AMP who fit this description) despite what they have done to shareholder "wealth".

If the shareholders (institutions and retail investors alike) continue to accept this state of affairs knowing or caring about nothing except the balance sheet and dividend, their end result is cast in stone, although of course the instos will see it coming and get out first, leaving the mums and dads to absorb the loss.

To me it's simply a shame that a venerable Aussie institution is no more, and Dixon's efforts to outsource every job are a smack in the eye to Australia for the short term gain of a few, including himself.

I'm not a fan of heavy handed industrial action. The union movement in general is paying the price for its 60's and 70's tactics. But all cycles eventually turn. I wish the LAME's well in their action which isn't really an action, and if the QF share price falls as a result, tough titties.

[Chimbu chuckles]

The last two posts are beautifully written and smack on target....I just hope a half desent journo reads them.

[schnauzer]

Gotta agree, Chimbu. Well put binos.

So how do we get these unions and associations to all work together to achieve a common benefit?

I'm certain that AIPA wouldn't even be a part of it, the COM is arrogant and entrenched as a part of management. Most of us are fairly cynical as to the COM's motives anyway. They seem to leave the COM and land in cushy management positions on a regular basis.

So, as pilots, we are stuck with the 3% over and over. But the rest of the company doesn't need to be. It's just finding common ground.

[Mr Qantas]

I'm certain that AIPA wouldn't even be a part of it, the COM is arrogant and entrenched as a part of management. Most of us are fairly cynical as to the COM's motives anyway. They seem to leave the COM and land in cushy management positions on a regular basis.
You want to be careful what you say pilot. Similar coments have gotten a troublemaking Mexican lame in the court rooms fighting to save his house. I hope they take it.





So 3% pay increase minus tax leaves about a pay increase of 1.5%
You need to do a moron check on yourself Mr Cairman. If you get a 3% pay rise your take home pay and the tax you pay both increase by 3%. You will have 3% more take home pay so stop this spread of misinformation that we now is common from you southern stars.



As for the alaea directing members to perform overtime bans I can assure you that they dont want a bar of it. There is no bans at Sydney and Brisbane International were the senior Execs reside and I now for a fact that they are totally opposed to this unortherised chaos.

[badarse]

There is no bans at Sydney and Brisbane International were the senior Execs reside and I now for a fact that they are totally opposed to this unortherised chaos.

Who is this semi illiterate moron?

[Ultralights]

You need to do a moron check on yourself Mr Cairman. If you get a 3% pay rise your take home pay and the tax you pay both increase by 3%. You will have 3% more take home pay so stop this spread of misinformation that we now is common from you southern stars

Yes, But if Inflation and the CPI is at 3% also, your pay increase in real terms is NOTHING!!


If your attitude Mr Q is typical of QF managers, then i feel very sorry for all of QF staff. sad times indeed.

[bonvol]

Mr Q's attitude is typical of QF management. Now you see what we have to put up with. Vive la Revolution and good luck LAMES!

Maybe someone needs to copy a typical day with MEL's all over the place and send them to Crikey.

[schnauzer]

Fark me. Was that for real?

First things first. Were you seriously threatening my house Mr Qantas? Were you seriously threatening QF LAME's out there with the same thing? I would reccommend you put your name to these proceedings, a$$hole.

Secondly. Moron check. If you get a 3% GROSS rise in income, then what will your tax do, assuming that you pay 48.5 cents in the dollar? I'm not even going to answer any further, because given this fella's grammar and spelling, he's clearly one iced vovo short of the full packet.

Mr Qantas, if you wish to get on this board and threaten, cajole, abuse, and use your clear lack of insight or knowledge or logic, then you better be prepared to get some right back again.

Personally, I hope that someone comes along and takes YOUR house. Your "troublemaking Mexican" was doing what he thought was right. Oh, and I have news for you? He is farken right....

Jeez, ultrlights, don't worry mate. This bloke ain't QF management any more than I'm the Queen.

[Life as a journey]

Now that had to be a wind up.

Then again, perhaps that truly is how The Big Q's management think.

Meantime, go hard LAME's.

Now Bino, would you run that bit about how the LAME's are not subject to the same supply/demand equation the pilots were subject to, way back in '89?

I can forsee the foreign taps opening to sub-continental labour if strikes were called.

No, of course that's not possible...or is it?

With respect to those involved in the drama of '89, immigration laws were passed to clear the way for foreign pilots to come on in.

If Dixon is cutting costs in times so good, what will happen in five or so years time when times are not so good?

No boom lasts forever.

Back to the current non-action then, how far can The Company go before strikes are called by its employees, be they LAME's, pilots, FA's or ground staff?

What the latter posts refer to regarding costs are poignant.

Prices keep going up while salaries keep going down.

Sorry, but when other perks and allowances are subtly removed, worse, when retention costs to employees INCREASE as they have for Jetstar pilots paying for ratings and even renewals, a gross increase of 3% on salary (that's before tax you mug, Mr. Q) is a step backwards, not forwards.

Again, go hard LAME's.

It'll be the pilots that're attacked next.

As if they're not being done-in already!

[Sunfish]

The law of supply and demand actually states the reverse of what some of you think it does.

It states that the higher the price paid, the more supply will be made available.

It follows that as the price (pay) falls, less LAME's (and pilots) will be available.

I suspect that Geoff Dixon, doesn't understand this, or if he does, he will push for overseas recruitment "because there are not enough LAME's available in Australia".

The trouble I suspect is that GD thinks (like many narcissistic managers) that he is in control of the situation, and that things happen when he "pulls levers and presses buttons" in management speak.

The reality is that the most junior sixteen year old baggage handler, let alone a pilot, FA or LAME, can make a larger and more immediate impact on Qantas than Dixon can.

Do I need to explain this to anyone? Except of course Mr. Qantas.

[Icarus2001]

Sunfish I disagree with you but enjoy most of your posts. perhaps you could provide a reference to your version of this economic theory?

It follows that as the price (pay) falls, less LAME's (and pilots) will be available. If this were true there would be many more higly paid pilots and only a few low paid? Huh?

I maintain that a persons salary is a function of how hard it is to replace them.

If I employ a gardener for a week she ;) could only command what the "market" suggests was a reasonable rate of pay. Lets say $15 an hour for 40 hour = $600 gross. Now if there was a shortage of labour, ie people no longer wanted to do the job then the price she could command would rise proprtionately.

That is what the building industry has been facing recently. Young people generally do not see trades as attractive careers so as a result the shortage of supply has pushed pay rates higher. A builders labourer earns good money now and yes they earn it too. Plasterers, plumbers and electricians are short in supply high on price.

Why do bar jobs pay poorly? Because the barrier to entry is low so there is an oversupply of labour. Why do dentists earn very well? There are significant barriers to entry to the profession (trade) with a lengthy study (and hence no income) period which leads to a shortage of supply.

[Binoculars]

Sunfish, While your simple explanation of one side of the law of supply and demand is correct as far as it goes, you omit the relevant side of the law which is that the larger the supply for a fixed demand, the lower the price needing to be paid. Aviation, and flying in particular is a special case as we all know. Just how many industries do you know where people are prepared to work for nothing? Do you know of another industry where the demand is exceeded by supply by a bigger ratio? I've stated on these pages before that given the law of s&d I am amazed at the conditions airline pilots managed to accumulate over the years.

life as a journey,

Now Bino, would you run that bit about how the LAME's are not subject to the same supply/demand equation the pilots were subject to, way back in '89?

A perfectly valid point which didn't escape me when I wrote the original post, and difficult to answer definitively, but I'll try to articulate the difference as I see it. Some participants in the 89 dispute may take offence, but I mean none, just stating my view of PERCEPTIONS at the time. Some may also interpret this as racist; those who know me know better, again, it is perceptions I'm talking about.

The 89 dispute was a PR disaster because pilots were PERCEIVED as being pampered and highly paid as it was. They initiated the dispute themselves rather than having it forced upon them by continual erosion of conditions and goodwill and morale (I can hear Amos and Tool Time sharpening their pencils already :hmm: ) and finally, their replacements, whatever we may think of their actions, were seen to be from places like the US and Europe. Our flying public, who just wanted to get airborne again and bugger the pampered pilots, was comfortable with the fact that pilots from such civilised nations were demonstrably capable of flying the relevant machinery.

Remember also the law of supply and demand for pilots applies all over the world, not just Australia, so there was never going to be a shortage of applicants to fill the vacant positions.

Now I may be on the wrong track here, and if so I will willingly apologise and withdraw, but I get the impression LAME's conditions are under attack simply as a means of cutting costs, and I'm not sure why qualified people from other first world countries who are not suffering from the same oversupply as pilots would bother coming here to fill positions under that sort of attack.

Which leads us to the point of the third world countries. This is a purely subjective view, but I don't think Australians would accept the concept of such a basic foundation of our jealously guarded safety record being undermined by bringing in third world workers to solve an industrial problem caused by management wanting to cut costs. The executives' salary and options packages, together with the massive profits QF is reporting proudly to their shareholders, are powerful ammunition to fire against the necessity for such an action, and I believe this time it would be a PR disaster for the QF board, not the LAME's.

Again, I recognise that is an opinion only, but it's what I see as the big difference between today and 89. I might also add that if Mr QANTAS is an example of the quality of the enemy, that is a heartening sign.

[Sunfish]

Icarus, I'm just being picky. Any Economics textbook will explain it the way I did.

The effect is the same as you say, if people are hard to replace (ie limited supply) they can get a higher price (pay), however the textbook puts it the other way around.

[Kanga767]

If the LAMEs took it to task, the media would get hold of a few cases of LAMEs getting pampered too and publish it. Remember, the public lets the media do their thinking for them.

Next thing we'd see immigration relax for that particular vocation, CASA give special consideration for CTC and the same thing as 89 would happen.

The public couldn't care less about the industrial situation in Aviation generally, they just want to keep flying.

It will be the Royal Commission that I hope never happens that sheds light on the systematic mistakes made by government departments and airline management.



K

Spelling!

[bugsmashing]

Kanga,

I can't say for sure, but I think the media might actually come out on the side of the LAME's on this one. Even if the government/CASA were to support QF and allow them to bring in LAME's from third world countries I think you would find the media would be onto them about this. They seem to enjoy playing up any sort of potential aviation disaster (think about how many times you've seen go-arounds discussed as major incidents).

Get some LAME's in from an African nation, and watch how we get to see about the five most recent airline crashes from that nation on A Current Affair or Today Tonight. We can watch Geoff Dixon defending them by saying that CASA has approved them for working here, and that clearly shows that they're safe. I think this would end bad in the media for QF.

[Ron & Edna Johns]

Hmm, with James Packer on the QF board, just who do you really think the media will be supporting?

When Margaret Jackson described Packer as "a fine young man who brings a lot to the board" (or something like that), what exactly do you think she meant? He hardly brought business acumen, that's for sure - he brought an ability to control the press.....

[Kanga767]

I do hope you're right Bugsmashing.


K

[schnauzer]

Ron and Edna (Just which one are you, anyway?;) ), PBL doesn't own all of the media. A pretty fair proportion, yes, but not all.

For this reason he can't really go too far in any spin against striking Qantas Employees. The reason for this is that they undermine their own reporting, their reasons will become transparent, and PBL is worth much more to him than Qantas....

[Metro man]

If Geoff Dixon is so fond of out sourcing, why not out source his job and that of the board of directors. In India there are millions of highly qualified people, some of which must be capable of running an airline.

It could be done at a fraction of the present cost of running the company; and why not shift the whole head office to India and save even more ? As well we could have Thai flight attendants ,Filippino pilots and Indonesian engineers. Register the aircraft under some flag of convenience and save even more.

Soon the only thing Australian about QANTAS will be the roo on the tail.

[Frank Burden]

Frank, I can see from whence you come, but perhaps you should use your writing skills a little more effectively :ok: W

[Mr Chairman]

It is true that there are formidable forces aligned with the company mainly an anti-worker Government in Canberra and Packer the little comfortable with his board seat. But this battle has to be fought and won for the sake of all QF workers. And it has to be won soon. After mid year the Government will have a total majority in both houses in Canberra and this is a Government that listens to big business and what they want. Some of the items on the list will be Long Service Leave (few other countries have it), Shift Loading, Superannuation ( QF dosen't want to pay in) etc etc etc.
Of course the media will be a problem, the company realised this a long time ago and went on the vanguard by getting little Pee Pee Packer on the board. So now not only do you have to deal with QF Managment but also with PBL and all there assets. But this problem is not insuperable and with good quality leadership from the union the good fight can and should be won.
The problem is now of leadership and this is where there is problems. The upper echelon from Bexley are without a doubt incompetent and badly tainted by the stink of corruption. They are far to close to QF managment and are only worried by the number of members ( more member, more fees=larger pay packets) and not the actual members them selves.
Whatever happens in the future this is important for all QF staff, Pilots, FAs etc etc unless we all want to be working for substandard wages with zero conditions.

[Mr Seatback 2]

No airline has ever saved itself into profitability through employee wage cuts. Fact.

If an airline wants to be profitable, it needs to examine all the areas of its' operation and look into the long term. Looking to the employees constantly is lazy management.

As stated elsewhere in this forum, bit much to ask for more cuts from employees when the board are awarding themselves bonuses upon more bonuses.

Pigs at the trough anyone?

[Ron & Edna Johns]

Ahhh, Schnauzer,

I am but one man. May sound like two, but really just one - a very mixed-up one at that.............

R O N E D N A J O H N S

[Binoculars]

Very funny, Minister! And tell me, how is your close friend Mitch Skid these days? He's been fairly quiet!

:p

[Moment of Clarity]

Last night a B744 destined for Singapore was grounded in MEL for various reasons, the main being a Cabin Interphone problem.

400 disgruntled passengers sitting in the terminal waiting for the aircraft to be fixed. No hotels for the pax and no Engineers to fix the problem.

Last I heard another B744 was being despatched from SYD to take up the slack and the grounded B744 was required in SYD today at 1000 hrs to operate revunue sevices. Still no Engineers to fix it though.

I hope the Engineers involved have covered themselves impecably. No doubt QF management will see this as 'industrial action' and will want answers as to why this delay was incurred.

My prediction is they will be stood down (with pay) pending a full investigation.

[Oz Ocker]

"No hotels for the pax"
That's the gretaest load of bullshIP I've eard in a long while - no otels in Melbourne bull:mad:****e!

"No doubt QF management will see this as 'industrial action' "
They can see it as they like, if there ain't been an official decleration by the union then it ain't industial action.
How the f:mad: are lames serposed ta be able ta forecast upcoming defects and to make themselves available "just in case".

"My prediction is they will be stood down"
Yeah, well that's REALLY gunna help an already short supply of lames, ain't it.
Also raises intresting legal questions about wrongful salary deduction too.

[Kanga767]

I hope the Engineers involved have covered themselves impecably.

I thought there weren't any engineers involved? Isn't that the problem? How can you cover yourself for something you didn't do??


K

[Orville]

"No hotels for the pax"

That's the story the companies feed the pax. what they mean to say is there aren't any hotels prepared to take pax's at a discounted fee. There would many hundreds of beds vacant in melbourne on any night, but at a cost, and these airlines are all about saving a quid. I bet the first and Business were accomodated straight away because they are the only pax's Qantas really want, they don't give a S#*t what happens to the cattle because most won't be flying again for 4 to 5 years, average. Time can heal most bad memories.

[Plain Crafty]

It seems as though what the LAMEs at Qantas need is an organisation to protect and promote their interests. What is the ALAEA doing about the current situation?

[F-Class]

The ALAEA are doing what they always do..............

Doing exactly what QF management tell them to do!:yuk:

[Ultralights]

what industrial action? if there is simply not enough staff to do the work, then there is not enough staff to do the work, simple! employ more staff. as any normal company would do to make sure it met its obligations to its customers!

oh, my bad, QF doesnt have obligations to its customers, only shareholders :mad:

[Nudlaug]

Sorry Moment of Clarity but you are just plain wrong on the QF9 to Singapore thing. I know an engineer involved in the situation personally. The aircraft had a problem with PA, there was no MEL relief possible, it was NOT grounded due to any overtime bans, in fact a few guys stayed back until 04:00 am just to get the aircraft serviceable again (which was a nice gesture I think since If they would have applied any "bans" the aircraft would have been stuck in Melbourne for MUCH longer!). The pilots on the aircraft from Sydney went the extra mile to get everyone to Singapore as well.

The only thing you are right though is that all the disgruntled passengers where kept in limbo, that aspect could've been handled much more professionally.

[Son of Brake Boy]

I heard a few things too.

Apparently the relief aircraft was sent from SYD after 2300 curfew and upon arrival in MEL was also deemed U/S.

Passengers were further inconvenienced while engineers supposed to be fixing the grounded aircraft were sent over to repair the new arrival aircraft.

QF 9 departed at 0310, 10 hours after its scheduled departure time. The only people left to work on the aircraft were the Foreman and the Leading Hand on shift. Everyone had somwhere else to be.

Real shame that, isnt Bruce! Hope your not feeling to much pressure before the unofficial bans escalate! ALAEA executive must be getting an absolute ear full.

[GalleyHag]

What concerns me the most is, what's going to happen to us the employee's when things really get tough for QF and I think its a not IF but when. Here we are making $1billion profits and we are seeing jobs going off-shore, conditions being eroded etc etc, what will happen if we start to loose money?

[The Enema Bandit]

Either a pay cut or the sack.

[Orville]

One of the main skills of "The Art of War" is to not get angry but to make your opponent angry, in so doing his judgement and actions become clouded.

Sounds like someone we know who has been seen ranting like a mad man, carefull Bruce you burst a blood vessel.

[Mr Qantas]

The QF9 delay was the most disgraceful and un Australian action Ive heard from you s***stirrers and who was right in the thick of it you may ask. No other than public enimy number one SP. I was shocked to here of the engineers walking off the job leaving 400 pax sitting around for 10 hours with no licence coverage and only the Supervisors to fix the numeros defects they wrote up before they p*ssed off home.

Shame on you Melbourne lames how can you justify such blatant misheif and rampant destruction of the good Qantas name. I hope youse all have your stories staight cause there is gunna be a full investigation into the alleged sabotage of Qf property. I hope they nail the lot of you.

[Dexter]

the most disgraceful and un Australian action Ive heard

it runs a long secund to dixon sending 30% of qf jobs oversees

[Son of Brake Boy]

SP actually stayed back on overtime time to help rectify the problem, and only left when he was stood down due to his requirement to fulfill the Leading Hand role the next day. ( Incidentally he started late as he needed to have a 10 hour break!)

As usual mr q you only give enough infomation to benefit your own POV.

I've really enjoyed the last couple of weeks at home with the kids. This , coupled with the disrespect shown by our management leads, me to believe that after the no engineer transit issues are passed and the EBA is through, they can stick their O/T. I think my bans will stay in place. Annualised sa;ery and more training may change my attitude but until then.....

[Sunfish]

Guys, I think you might want to discuss this stuff in private with no emails. My guess is that if QF gets a chance they will sue individuals.

I do not know if it is legal in Australia or possible, but QF may try and subpeona pprune to get your url details and identify you if they can convince a judge that any of you are any threatening posts against anyone or anybody.

Oh! And good luck with whatever it is that you aren't doing.

Mexicans indeed:}

[Ultralights]

as far as im concerned its simply a result of serious understaffing, QF have no one to blame but themselves. the company has no legal comeback if this be the case. you cannot be forced to work any more than your employment agreement requires, and that is 8 hrs for every 24. anything over is NOT compulsory.

and somehow i dont think anything posted on an internet forum, especially one based in another country will hold any weight in court!! and if they try, it will be new low for QF.

Does this sound like good management to you?? Serious understaffing! poor morale, so QF management, as typified by Mr QF, are hell bent on standing them down, and now threatening baseless legal action??

who in their right mind will expect work output to improve and boost morale by following these actions?

every day i feel more ashamed of my past employment with Qantas. sad days indeed.
:{

[matca]

Mr Qantas,

Unless you learn how to:

Construct a sentence,

Spell words correctly,

Use correct grammar,

I will fly up to Sydney ($72 + $80 taxes, charges and fuel levies) and personally rip both of your index fingers off, unless of course, it's your three year old child typing for you.

And by the way, shut up you illiterate, raving, fascist idiot.

[schnauzer]

I think that matca has been most polite given the attitude of Mr Q. Good on yer matca for summarising the situation quite succinctly.:ok:

[QFinsider]

When GD full of french bubbly announced 7000 jobs overseas he has unwittingly let the cat out of the bag.

My colleagues and I are increasingly frustrated. AIPA is am arm of the company, no more no less.
What the bone heads who drive this thing haven't worked out yet is that it is they who have made it all about short term money. It is they who have snuck in contracts, with clever little clauses. It is they who dictate the environment an employee feels he or she works in every day.

What they have forgotten in thier grubby self centred grab is that this industry requires a synergy between people to get aircraft away on time. From check in staff to baggage handlers, engineering cabin crew and pilots. There are literally hundreds of people doing their bit, and quite often much more in order to keep it all together for the people that pay our wages, the customer.


Under catering of flights,where even "premium" passengers can't get a meal choice, increasing use of MEL relief for dispatch (thought it only happened in GA), slight of hand at every turn so the collar and tie bean counters can win the day again....



Along the way the snergy is lost, the company divided, the pride gone. Assets begin to look tacky.

As Walt Disney said "If you want good customer relations, you must first have good employee relations"

And contrary to the bean counters, it isnt all about money, it is all about recognition, respect and an open and supportive culture, that's what makes great institutions.:(

[Ultralights]

since when has the bean counters made a great institution???

every company that has been run by bean counters fails, or comes very close.