The CX pasture

[DashDriver]

I am an airline pilot in the U.S. and I have been kicking around the idea of applying to CX. I have read many of the topics here in the forum and I am interested in hearing the pros and cons of working in HK. From what I have seen there seems to be alot of unhappy folks at CX resulting in alot of cons. I can tell you from personal experience that every airline has got its problems, even the one that I work for. There is always a part of the pasture that is green, even if most of it is brown. So, I was wondering if there might be someone at CX that would be interested in answering a few questions. Please feel free to email me.

Thanks

[This message has been edited by DashDriver (edited 12 January 2001).]

[This message has been edited by DashDriver (edited 12 January 2001).]

[water check]

Dash.....at the risk of sounding rude, how much negative news will it take for you to get the idea that (particularly as a yank) there are FAR better jobs to be had. Nearly every American that has come here has left and wished he never heard of CX ! Ask yourself what other MAJOR airline has pilots resigning on a regular and ever increasing basis. I doubt that United, American, Delta, etc, have much of a resignation problem at the moment.

[BusAce]

DashDriver: I hope the first reply didn’t alarm you. Don’t let it, simply because it is not true. There are a lot of American pilots here in HKG and on the basings. If conditions are as bad as some might want you to believe, then ask them what are they doing still working for a bad company. The truth is: As you said quite rightly, every company, even American Airlines, have good and bad points. Working for CX is interesting, plenty of destinations, layovers, new aircraft, good salaries and benefits, excellent future. One thing though, there are plenty of pilots here who don’t know what its like to work for another company simply because they’ve never done it.

[ButtMunch]

BusAss you are wrong...
the conditions are far better at a US company , in Cathay the sick leave is more generous, and only intitially because it is not a bank system, after a couple of years even the sick system is better in the US of A.
And believe me you need alot of sick time in HK and Cathay.

And i think you don´t get treatend each time you call in sick in the US, or pressured by management personel to cancel you sick call because they need you, and if you don´t cancel it, that they will cap your future at the comapny

Stay where you are there óld Dash Buddy´
BusAce is lost, there is absolutely NO COMPARISON between a US company and CX.

Ask yourself what other un-negotiated deteriation to our contract of service is next. Oh yes they just f*cked up the temp basing deal, which gave you an opportunity to get out of HKG for 4 months per year.

Bus Ace ask yourself a question? on what condition of service do you see yourself being downgraded to, in say 10 years?
a)you don´t know, because they WILL **** it up
b)They will degrade my C-o-s but i am stupid and don´t care
c)it is unchanged because my fellow Pilots stood up to management for me by contract compliance.
d)if I had helped with Contract compliance, everybody would be on Better Cos.

[water check]

BusAce....what planet are you on? I am not sure if your reply was tounge in cheek....because it would either have to be that, or you are congenitaly stupid or in complete denial. CX is nothing compared to US carriers. Let 's have a look shall we?

1. Salaries: US carriers, reasonable to begin with, then steadily climbing up to the present United contract of over $400000US/yr for a senior captain. CX.....reasonable to start, then a slow climb....until they then give you a 30% pay cut when they decide they want to increase their bonuses.

2. Lifestyle: US carriers, an industry average of 12 days off when you are junior, rising to upwards of 21 days off a month when you are senior. More importantly, SOME CONTROL OVER YOUR OWN LIFE through the seniority bidding system. As you get more senior, your lifestyle becomes better. CX, average of 7 days off/month, and it NEVER GETS ANY BETTER. Worse, you have NO SAY in what days off you get a month, and no matter how senior you are, you can't get a better roster than the most junior pilot in the company. You can't get off specific days for your anniversary, childs birthdays, graduations,...etc, etc, etc...!! There is NO QUALITY OF LIFE AT THIS AIRLINE.

3. Pensions (ha,ha,ha,...!!): US carriers, all of the major US airlines have substantial pension plans, that will pay out on average 2-3 million dollar (USD...!) lump sum upon retirement, and in ADDITION a monthly payment of appox. 10000 US/mo indexed to inflation. Not to mention retirement health benefits, etc, etc. CX, NOTHING. They give you an additional 15.5% of salary to do with what you will. Correct me if i'm wrong, but we are pilots, not professional financial planners. Many of the CX pilots who stay with this company will have a VERY difficult retirement. CX won't care if you are living on foodstamps and rummaging through rubbish bins for scraps. Let's be straight about this. The basic fact of life is that CX management will not take ANY responsibility for it's employees welfare. NONE. Throughout your ENTIRE career with CX, you will have NO idea, or guarantee what sort of pension situation you will be faced with upon retirement. CX has abrogated any and all responsibility to your comfort and security in your later years. I am sure your wife and children will be comforted by that thought.

4. Work enviornment: US carriers, you go to work, you go home, they leave you alone. They don't care how many days off you have a month, only that you do your hours. They don't care where you live, and even build bid lines that allow commuting. They don't threaten you, intimidate you or make you jump through ridiculous hoops to move up to the 'next step of the ladder'. BOTH sides of the party adhere to the LETTER of the contract. If they, don't, they are in court and a LEGAL remedy is reached. CX, the main word is CONTROL. The management is completely paranoid, so they try to compensate for this by attempting to CONTROL nearly everything you do, THINK, and possess. They are continually attempting to have you 'prove' your loyalty. They now state that you will not be considered for a command unless your 'attitude' is correct (read: kiss the ass of management). They can't stand for you to have days off, and go out of their way to ensure you don't (useless sim crew-up duties in the middle of a block of days off). They are maniacaly hostile to anyone who attempts to commute, and screw around with our rosters to ensure that most don't. They will threaten, intimidate, and overtly cripple your career if they decide that your 'face' doesn't fit. They will not allow you financial freedom, as they will wait until you are too old to go elswhere and then force a 30% paycut, with threat of termination if you don't sign (and then tell the newspapers that it was a 'fairly negotiated contract'). The most important thing of all to consider is that there is NO legal protection in HK. The government and business work hand in hand to keep the employees under the thumb. CX can dismiss you with 3 months notice WITHOUT cause. They don't even have to give you a reason. The have terminated pilots by saying 'they have lost confidence in you' (I do not make this up!). They are bullies extrodinaire, and you can NEVER put your guard down. Remember, your career is NEVER secure, because they can terminate you WHEN THEY FEEL LIKE IT. There is no such thing as 'unfair dismissal' in Hong Kong.

5. Sickness: US carriers, you can bank sick days each year, and they accumulate (in other words, they have some value). CX, they will call you at home when you are sick and accuse you of 'faking it'. They will threaten your career if you have 'too many' sick days. If you are on a basing, they will 'suggest' that you are perhaps not 'suited' for basing flying, and that perhaps you should come back to HK, or resign. After 4 months off sick, they put you on half pay (unless you are a management pilot of course!).

I could go on and on listing pages of comparisons like this, but if you don't get the point by now, you never will. Incidentally, most Americans HAVE left, and not a single one of them has EVER expressed any regret. The only regret they have expressed is in ever having joined CX in the first place. BusAce, your comments about 'good salaries, benefits and an excellent future'.......have you been tested for drugs lately...?

[This message has been edited by water check (edited 13 January 2001).]

[BusyB]

I cannot help but feel Busace is in a world of his own. Where do you get it???? We could all do with something to make us feel happy. Good Luck. BRGDS BusyB

[Thrust]

Great post watercheck! Take note now one and all, this is the year we balance the scales and get back what we need to progress in this career with this airline.

[conan]

Not as long as the likes of Bus Ace are around with his attitude. I want to know what he is imbibing because it is sure giving him a rosy outlook on life, I could do with some of it myself. Better still he should bottle it and sell it, he could retire in luxury

[BusAce]

DashDriver: Do me a favour please, apply to join CX. You will receive whats on offer, compare it to few US carriers. Then tell those who are blinkered which conditions are better. You see the above few replies are, unfortunately, insults. Because out of their blindness, they missed the point that you already work in the USA. Trust me if the conditions are bad here, no one would be working for CX. So please ask them why are they still there. :)
Regards BA

[DashDriver]

BusAce,
Could I possibly talk you into emailing me with your email address? I have a few questions for you if you would have a moment to spare.

Thanks

[BusyB]

BA, You really don't seem to understand. When someone leaves one employer and moves to another because he is offered better terms and conditions for himself and his family he is signing a contract and committing himself to a new career. In civil aviation you cannot make a successful career by starting at the bottom of the seniority list every couple of years. CX has broken my contract every couple of years but because of the time I, and my family have invested I now have to fight to improve my lot. New applicants to CX would be well advised to be aware of the dishonesty record of CX as an employer. You do DashDriver a disservice by covering this up, and I suspect you are really not being very honest with yourself.

[Panza]

Personally the more BA can convince americans to come and join CX the better. They will come for a year or two and realise that BA was a B**Shi**er and leave back to american airlines, just like most of the yanks before them. This will hopefully make the company realise that we are falling behind the rest of the world and improve our conditions here. By the way...there was a 60% no show in LA on the latest interviews there.

------------------
" If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for everything "

[Goldwing2000]

Wow, one for the airline and everyone else against!! One screwed up airline. Is it me or are all mainly chinese management run airlines e.g SQ and CX not particularly well liked by pilots or is it an asian thing?
Dashdriver, do your research and think long and hard about this. I can't see how with present standards of pay at majors, CX can be better then an american airline, but then again pay isn't the only criteria and the other points mentioned weren't any better. Good luck in your assessment.

--------------
If it moves, then funk it!