Anyone bagging QF?

[EX HARBOUR DOOD]

Is there anyone out there who has seen the light and taken QF as a serious career path rather than the standard joke?? This company has serios plans and there is no CC going on down south!!! Lets face it, CX is the "JOKE" and eveyone should make plans to move on!! Who's coming???

[jtr]

This is the best you can come up with?

[EX HARBOUR DOOD]

Well, actually jtr, yes!!!
What are your magical plans in this great airline???

[HardRock]

To not be an S/O for life.

[NOFAULT]

Well I see last night 1Dec two flights was cancelled due crew shortage.If this is the way forward then I think the move down under is worthwhile.Things can only get worse from here,and the competion will take advantage of this.

[fookungdo]

Well No Fault,
Your moniker fits well. Your spelling and grammer is ONE BIG FAULT.
With that level of sophistication, you should do well at QF.
Adios!!

[Midnight Rambler]

Actually, EHD, all is not a bed of roses in QF. There is deep discontent over many issues not unsimilar to ours and in all departments - that from a true blue, longtime employee on the -400.

[NOFAULT]

Well fookungdo if I knew this forum was all about spelling and correct grammar,I would have never bothered to join.
Getting back to my original concern about cancelled flights.I can see where this is going to lead and it is not going to be pretty.Everybody think they are clever but be careful out there

[cheklapsap]

Fookungdo should be more careful. Grammar is spelled as such. Not with an 'e'.

[zonker]

Quote: "Actually, EHD, all is not a bed of roses in QF. There is deep discontent over many issues not unsimilar to ours and in all departments - that from a true blue, longtime employee on the -400."

Really? QF have had a 30% pay cut, and 100 or so direct entry captains? QF fly punitive rosters of 85-95 stick hours per month, with no overtime? QF have weeks of reserve without being paid for it? QF have only a 15.5% contribution to superannuation? Do tell.

(For those who don't know: QF super is around the 22% of salary mark, and they are deeply unhappy with it. It's still about 50% better than CX B scales. I'm not saying they aren't justified in their complaint, but to say they have the same problems as CX is BOLLOCKS)

A 3 year QF S/O earns $110k per year. He/she flys less than 15 days per month, and about 50-55 stick hours per month.

[Midnight Rambler]

Zonker, I seem to have hit a nerve. All I am saying is that QF is not the bed of roses we might be being led to believe.

By the way, stick hours? S/O's? For how many years?

[Tom Tipper]

zonker...you obviously aren't mixing with enough QF pilots. Never met an unhappier bunch - and getting worse. Their misery leaves ours for dead.

Their super scheme might be OK but their salary is crap and tax is over 40% in the upper brackets. Also they don't get 13th month.

Not saying ours is great - we have MAJOR room for improvement. However do not ever aspire to work for Qantas, particularly internationally on the 767 fleet. Dollars and life on the 747-400 as a S/O or senior F/O are not as bad as the rest of the QF fleet because of longhaul pay, but you couldn't/shouldn't aspire to remain an F/O for ever. Life back on the 767 is miserable for a Captain and even CX F/O's do better financially than that.

Of course traditionally QF have relied on paying crap because guys are living 'at home' and there have been no shortage of willing applicants. Now people are for the first time starting do leave Qantas for greener pastures O/S, perhaps the airline may start to slip a few well earned extra $ the pilots way (???)

We should never aspire to duplicate ANYTHING down at Qantas, perhaps the deal just struck with United aircrew is something more worthy of persuing.

[Back Course Bandit]

I couldn't believe what I heard second hand from a QF 767 skipper about how many guys are leaving for CX. I guess they figure a couple of years in HK isn't too bad, then get an Oz basing. Newer equipment, nice pay scales.

Still if they aren't happy at QF, I'm more than willing to help them fill the gaps.. :-)

Cheers,
BCB

------------------
"Landing an aicraft is simply controlled crashing" - Roy Slaven

[zonker]

"zonker...you obviously aren't mixing with enough QF pilots" - He he, I'll come back to that one later.

You seem to be talking about the QF 767 fleet and then assuming the rest of QF is the same across all fleets. Simply not true. The 767 fleet has had years of poor rostering, and been paid less than domestic 767 drivers makes it even more galling. Flying the 747 is far better. Sure there are still problems, but they seem almost trivial compared to CX. Pay could definitely be better, but we always say that don't we.

Time to command at CX is tragic, and getting worse. I have a good friend who joined QF in 1989 (that's QF international, not the domestic situation going on at the time) and he is now a captain. CX has too many 55 yo just waiting to be extended, and I'll bet there are a few BA direct entry captains before long. CX has too many aircraft coming next year and not enough crews. Do you really think management are just going to accept cancelled flights without doing anything?

Oh, and as for tax, I pay less than 30%. Just because you earn a high salary in Oz doesn't disadvantage you. (Negative gearing). So comparisons between CX and QF pay leave CX for dead, after tax and COL.

Plenty of CX S/Os and even F/Os have left for QF - I don't know the numbers but it always seemed to be about one to three a month, over several years. I haven't heard of anyone going the other way, but I suppose it's possible. More likely what was discussed above (QF leaving for greener pastures) refers to some lose talk about leaving for Emirates. Quite a few AN drivers have done this, I haven't heard of any QF but I have heard talk about it. Not to CX though!

When I went for QF interviews about 75% were CX, both pax and freighters. I was told in the sim that this had been the case for ages. I remember when military mostly went CX, now they come here or (gasp!) stay in. Other postings talk about how poor the interviewee quality is for CX, does this sound like QF pilots going to HK?

I'd wasted several years in CX and I am now having to start the seniority game again. Maybe about 12 years to command in QF, perhaps less with the expansion. CXs talk of expansion is just that - talk. No orders. And CX now has all these 55 yo falling over themselves to delay your command even further. I don't think I'll do heaps better command-wise in QF, but I'll not do as badly as at CX. Of course I've lost all that time I spent at CX - grrr. But I made my decision based on stability of employment and lifestyle, and I haven't regretted it yet.

You are fighting for your (contractual) lives. Don't give up because if CX succeed then other airlines will try the same tricks on us. I still have many friends in CX and hope for the best.

[This message has been edited by zonker (edited 05 December 2000).]

[EX HARBOUR DOOD]

To Mr Hardrock.
With reference to your comment on being a QF S/O forever. There is an F/O slot allocations list in QF where the last course for this financial year (June 2001) was awarded to an S/O who has been on line for 5 months. He will be S/O for less than 12 months. The new requits next year can expect to be 767 F/O's by the end of the year.
So its up to the individual in QF as to whether they want to be a 400 tosser S/O, or a 767 F/O. Sure there are pay issues, but the old cliche that there are no promotions in QF are wrong, wrong,wrong. Dont tell me that you wouldnt take a 767 F/O slot in AUS for $120,000. Your only kidding yourself if you say otherwise.

[jtr]

EHD, kinda surprised you stuck your head back into the Harbour considering the responses you elicited on other posts!
As you seem to be having a little difficulty grasping why the QF recruiting office isn`t being swamped with mail, let me give my $0.02.
In your example you spoke of someone being a 76 f/o after a little over a year in QF. Said person will now be earning $120,000. This amounts to about $65,000 after tax.

A person in the same position (chronologically) at CX will take home $92,000 after tax (all figure AUD)
12-15 months later, when the CX guy is a JF/O, he will take home $130,000.
6 months after that when he becomes full F/O, he will take home $170,000.

How is our 76 F/O doing at this stage?

Since housing allowance, CoL, prfoit sharing, negative gearing, etc are all objective, lets assume they cancel each other out.

I`m not saying things are perfect at CX, but they could worse.

[zonker]

I said a 3 year QF S/O on the -400 earns $110k (that's from the Group Certificate that I saw).

After tax of $39,080 (assuming zero deductions) that's a net income of $71k. If you have any reasonable negative gearing, say $20k per year, your tax bill becomes $28,180 which gives a net income of $81k. So somewhere between $71k (zero deductions) and $81k (negative gearing) after tax - for an S/O!

These are very different tax numbers from what you gave above. Mine come from the Australian Tax Office, see <A HREF="http://www.ato.gov.au/content.asp?doc=/content/Individuals/individual_resident_income_taxrates_1999_2000.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.ato.gov.au/content.asp?doc=/content/Individuals/individ ual_resident_income_taxrates_1999_2000.htm</A> for the tax tables for the 2000-2001 tax year if you don't believe me.

You claim that a CX S/O in the same position, flying the same aircraft (B747-400) takes home $92k after tax. At what exchange rate is that - seems to be at the current rate of about HK$4 to A$1. The long term exchange rate is closer to 5.5 to 1, and between about 1995-1998 it was over 6 to 1. At the latter exchange rate your CX S/O is taking home (by your figures, which I can't verify) about $61k - $10k less than QF.

Put it another way, the exchange rate at which the after tax pays of CX and QF S/O equal (again, by using your figures) is between 5.1 (zero deductions by the QF guy in OZ) and 4.5 (negative gearing). What do you think the exchange rate will be in the near future?

All of this ignores the other problems with CX which aren't at QF - seniority, time to command, cost of pre-school and primary school for children in HK being way too high, etc. On straightforward salary I can't see the CX guys being that far ahead except for the current unusually low exchange rate, and even then there is not much in it. After it gets to 4.5 to 1, or 5.1 to 1 (depending upon deductions for Oz tax) then the QF S/O is ahead on salary as well.

[This message has been edited by zonker (edited 08 December 2000).]

[HardRock]

Mr. EHD, I can assure you with 100% certainty that I would never consider moving to OZ, for a 767, 120,000 useless OZ dollars, or anything else. Bye bye.

[zonker]

jtr, I don't understand, does that mean your HK$ salaries are based on an (optimistic) exchange rate of 4 to 1? I see no change to your original posting figures. You also said that time to J/FO is 12 to 15 months - double that and add some to get the real time to J/FO. Where on earth do you pull these figures from?

Your Oz after tax salary is still way out, and I even you gave you the official Oz government web site address to check it out - for an income of $120k (which you quote) the after tax salary with zero deductions is $81k, not $65k as you claim. Normal deductions would increase this after tax salary further - negative gearing would increase it significantly.

I think you are putting yourselves down - you seem satisfied to compare your jumbo salaries, including overtime (which I know you get nothing for) to the cheapest major carrier I know - QF - and then you seem satisified to compare it to the smaller aircraft types and say how well paid you are! Why not compare your salary to a 737 driver in Europe, or a Dash-8 in USA, I'm sure you can feel you are better off.

These comparisons are selling yourself short - I can assure you that QF do not consider CX when it comes to justifying higher salaries. Quite the contrary, you are seen as a low cost, low quality, inferior competitor.

Find this comment harsh? Then stop comparing your basic salary with a 767 driver in QF, and start thinking about the whole package - super, salary, hours (QF and AN domestic only fly 55 stick hours before earning overtime - real dollars here - QF earn time and half and double time for long sector lengths and flying at night, which you don't get at all), rostering, the whole works. You can't even make the QF comparison work without using abnormally low exchange rate, and over-estimating the Oz tax by nearly 50%. Get the facts right.

PS Talking to you reminds of one reason why I left. Too many senior pilots knew little about my salary, my time to upgrade, the salary in QF and the tax that applied. Nor did they care. Their kids had grown up, they were still on a good wage, they didn't care enough about it to bother sticking it out during the sick-out last year, and my name was Jack - as in "I'm alright, Jack, I don't give a toss about you". Your own figures show an abysmal lack of regard for the truth, even when I point you in the direction of a web site to check the taxation facts - important when comparing any salary. Grrrrrr!

[This message has been edited by zonker (edited 08 December 2000).]

[jtr]

still typing, one finger at a time I`m afraid

[jtr]

Zonker, for your benefit I have re-calculated based on your prediction for the AUD. Since you seem so intent on bringing other variables (-ive gearing etc) into the formula, I have put below a rough guide of what I would do had I joined in mid this year, at the same time as our soon to be 767 F/O at QF.

All calculations are in AUD at 5.5 to 1, and after tax.

2000 First year, $64,000. Housing is paid for by CX to a max of $3800/month as an S/O

2001 Second Year $74,000

2002 About half way through year 3 I would expect to be promoted to junior F/O, pay becomes $101,000, Having saved wisely, I put my hard earned $55,000 from the previous 2 and a half years plus a personal loan, and mortgage to purchase a property valued at $550,000. This is all mortgaged over a period of 7 1/2 years. The company now gives me a housing allowance of $87,000/year. I also get a small tax concession.
6 months later, I become a full F/O, and am now on $130,000.

When my wife unexpectedly falls pregnant, I am astounded at the cost of childbirth in HK (about $5000), but relieved to know that CX pays 90% of tuition for my child in HK, or 75% if I choose to send them to boarding school overseas.

So lets look to year 2010. Assume my salary has not increased, I am still an F/O, and the dollar has stayed at 5.5 to 1 as a result of G.W. Bush’s bizzare desire to spend the entire US budget surplus in Australia. I have been at CX for 10 years.
Aside from the $55,000 which I contributed, my $550,000 apartment has now been paid off completely by Cathay and I have earnt $1.15 mill with an extra $200,000 contributed toward my retirement fund. I have not paid one cent of my own money toward rent.
Do you see where I`m coming from?
I`m not saying it`s the bees nuts, but is this so little that I am considering packing up and going to QF?

As an aside, if you really do think the AUD is going to strengthen 30% against the US, make sure you have your –ive gearing intrest rate fixed as they will probably sky rocket. (just trying to help)
Oh, just read your second post, sorry for calling the rate $65k, figured 45% was a good call for the tax, but obviously a bit ott. Sorry that my estimate was 25% wrong. And I am sure you will recognise the chronology of my post and your SUBSUQUENT tax office post.
Please bear in mind that I`m not the one saying A is better than B, I just stating why I and others aren`t leaping at QF.
As for the 76 F/O thing, that’s the example EHD put forward, and seemed better than your 3 year S/O figure so that`s what I used.
Finally…. Take it easy champ, you`re gunna blow a brain vessel if you get so wound up about this sort of stuff. Cheers


[This message has been edited by jtr (edited 08 December 2000).]

[Healey]

Jesus! Haven't you two got anything better to do!!!

[jtr]

Friday night, city of lights, R3 on sat