SQ,Hk's new airline

[Samsonite]

Well boys finally eveeryone is going to see how lame our management really are and we don't have to do anything. They are going to do 4 pax destinaions in North America and are also cargo to LAX,SFO,NYC and Chicago. A thumbs up to our fearless leaders!

[Fox Mulder]

Samsonite
International air service agreements involve complex negotiations between sovereign states. Politics, rather than simple economic or commercial issues, often drive the outcome of such negotiations. Your posting displays an appalling lack of understading of the process. Keep flying!
Fox

[Jaded]

It is pure supposition but I think the handling of the "dispute" may have led Govenment to view CX in a different light.

There was once a one airline one route policy. This seems to have faded. Other operations freighters being a case in pont.

Perhaps this may have influenced the negotiations?

[cheesecake]

Hey Suitcase

This is a matter between governments, not airlines.

International politics decide what happens, not airline management, “Lame” or “Olympic gold medalists”, it matters not. Despite all we did to object to this decision, it happened. This is international politics. It has F*** all to do with economics, commercial or common sense. There are factors involved that are beyond all our comprehensions. You don’t have the slightest inkling of the factors that go into such decisions. So you have no right to comment on the whys and wherefores.

As the X File man says “Keep flying” i.e. why don’t you just fly airplanes, which I hope you are good at, and leave us to do our job, which despite your selfish arrogant uninformed opinions, we are actually good at.

You probably don’t agree with this, because having passed your course to drive the high tech bus, you are automatically qualified to run the world.

The sad thing about it is that we could actually make a good team. We’ll run the show, you just drive the planes. Now there’s a novel idea.

[InUSAandObserving]

Just out of curiosity which government faction did the deed here? Who was it? The US or was it the Chinese, and what was the driving force behind those decisions? Please do not anyone here give the drivel that the US really gives a damn about what airline actually gets what runs when it comes to the foreign carriers. As long as Delta and United have their lobbyist in the US making sure no airline encroaches on their wings the government just verifies that what ever airline bids for the rights is meeting all the standard requirements and be sure that the folks in the pockets of Delta and United et. al. are seeing that all the right letters are crossed and dotted. As far as Chinese government decisions, I would guess they have their favorites and perhaps CX is no longer the darling it once was. Either way it is the management's responsibility to have been proactive in the pursuit of these rights of passage for their flights. From reading these posts and other write ups in the news it appears that CX has had their priorities on expansion but not in a competitive way. After all look at the new Continental flights over the top and the competition already there. They are already facing a challenger in that arena, and where is CX in that race? The global partnerships are new to the consumers and it will have its stages of development, but in the USA the majority of pax are complaining about it because the Americans are very brand conscious and if they buy brand X they want brand X and not a substitute. Airlines that are proactive will have to be on the ready with a marketing plan as the consumer flack grows. What was the contingency plan for the move to get more flights into the heart of America? Of course the lack of any and the lack of winning those routes is all on the government's back? I guess SQ., Continental and United must have just let the governments come knocking on their door asking if they would be interested in their new routs. I recall hearing of the bid for new routs by these other airlines and the promotions for their new routs but I cannot recall hearing of the petition from CX for the same said routs. Why not?

[Cloud Cuckooland]

Ah, Mr. Cake! Do I detect a mellowing - your novel idea - I like it. Needs a degree of trust first though.

[Tom Tipper]

Cheesecake - relax. Have a nice cup of tea and a sit down.

This is a PILOTS forum. You could always start an AIRLINE MANAGEMENT forum and bitch away to your heart's content about ill-informed pilots (you know, "paid to much", "don't really do anything for most of the flight" etc all the old chestnuts). It would be cathartic really.

Yes some pilots ARE indeed ill-informed but some decisions made by CX management over the past two years DO invite criticism.

The big problem with CX management is that it is often used as a stepping-stone to other airlines etc. The best interests of CX are not always foremost in their considerstions.

Pilots on the other hand are with Cathay for 25 years or more and have a far greater interest in their company (and yes, indirectly their own) welfare.

[Samsonite]

All i was doing was posting the facts of SQ's expansion out of "OUR" SUPER HUB and all of sudden our managers get all defensive.Well boys get things sorted with the crew buy some more airplanes and lets go do the same thing to SQon their home turf.

[Screaming Lord]

It's a real ROUT that's what it is. Too busy using energy looking inwards trying to save a few pennies here and there (working on that management bonus), and not being pro active and aggresive with the outside big picture.

[Fox Mulder]

Samsonite
Not really defensive just trying to point out the reality of a complex situation.
USA observer; interesting post but your perception of what CX has been up to is about as far off the mark as one can get. Never mind, some good points. Remember US protectionism takes many forms not only traffic right related.

As someone else pointed out this is a pilot's forum, so ciao.

[realitycx]

Cheescake & Fox

Oooohh! Little bit touchy aren’t we? Things not going too well?

If you guys are not up to the task, finding such things difficult to cope with why don’t you move on? No one would blame you – it is obviously not your fault, old chap - it’s clearly all those nasty old politicians.

Those nasty old politicians just will not be told, will they? I mean, who do they think they are? Don’t they appreciate they are dealing with the best management team in the world?

Listen, Cheescake, just before you go, you can always give the staff a good going over – they always do as they are told. And if all else fails, just inform our customers that they are not to fly with SQ.

There, feeling better now?

You are right, we have a great team. It deserves some leadership.

[MaxThrust]

Screaning Lord , you have hit the nail on the head . This company is penny wise and pound foolish.
They have spent all their time screwing their crews instead of taking care of business.
When will they learn that its not 1950 anymore and the security blanket they have wrapped themselves in for the last 50 years called a monopoly is starting to ware a bit thin. He guys! Yes you bunch of tossers who run this show, its about time you pulled you head out of the sand, and your thumb out of your arrss and looked outside at the big wide world we live in.

Get serious, the aircrew is part of your army and the enemy, is out there!

[InUSAandObserving]

Well, please lead me to the big news events about Cathay's petitions and there new plans for gaining entry into the USA? When the Continental's and United and others send out press releases into the local areas where their new service has the most impact and across the nation as well. So please lead myself and others to read about the newest rout plans into the USA for Cathay. Show me where they advertised and made their desires known to the public of any airport. All of the airports in the USA are governed by the local airport authorities they are not controlled by the Federal Government, the FAA has the right of administering the flow of traffic because of the amount of traffic in any one area to work with the major problems the US is presently facing of massive congestion at our major airports. But, when you can land, how often you can land and how much you will pay to land at a US airport is determined by the local (i.e. Chigcago/New York, which falls under the Port Authority/Atalanta or whatever) city's airport authority and they are ruled by the local constituents and lobby groups too, as well as the Delta's of the world. This is why it is very difficult for other airlines to hub out of Atlanta. Delta is an Atlanta based company and not only do they have a BIG presence at Hartsfield they also have a BIG influence in Mayor Johnson and the city's money base. So where and who was CX courting to get into the USA? Again, I say please direct me to their adverts and their promotion for the routes to the local governments and their constituents.

[Captain Krono]

Dear Cheesecake,

We'll stick to flying the planes which we DO do well.

You had better brush up on your 5th freedom rules and regulations and you will find that yes governments are involved in this case BUT the incumbant carrier is consulted too. CX has the traffic rights to some or all of these destinations and has not exercised them within the time limits. So another airline can apply.

Now to credentials, I have a law degree, a 1st at that , I have studied international airline law. What about you ? I would guess just a long brown tongue because you certainly have no formal management training or else you would keep your mouth SHUT and quietly acknowledge that you have been out played by SQ with CAAC and Dragonair next.

We ARE good at flying the planes. Your performance however is very doubtful.

Have a nice weekend off while we keep this airline flying.

[Sizzle]

According to the Singapore Straits times, SQ has also applied to serve Madrid, Brussels , Munich and Vienna from Hong Kong.

5th Freedom rights can only be exercised by another airline if the incumbant route holder cannot or will not operate the service for 5 years after award date.

MH and QF have also applied for routes ex-HKG.

[Thrust]

To in the US of A observing;

We have plenty of traffic rights into the US of A. No problems there. It's the 5th freedoms that are the problem. We can't (are not allowed) to fly from one entry port to another US city. Your lot want to enter HK and take our "lunch" to Singapore or where ever. Not a level playing field as is usual when dealing with the land of the free lunch.

[Compliant One]

Thrust,
Actually, what you are suggesting is technically called "Cabotage".
This is the big advantage that USA has over every other competitor in the world. The size of the domestic market is so big that they have to protect it otherwise their market would be decimated by high quality service by asian and european carriers.

By all means you can have 5th freedom between Vancouver and New York but not cabotage between LA and NY.

Realities of life do have to come into play.

[Thrust]

I don't really care what it's called but the reality of life is that the US wants it all. They always have and always will... they serve only their own interests. (Just take a look at the WTO)

The realities of life are that we, a small (by US standards) Asian airline cannot afford to let the US giants come into our market and take our customers without an equal share of their market. To all of the previously chapter 9 protected and to the future chapter 9 protected airlines of the US....get stuffed.

Sorry to get off the origional topic but these yanks just yank my chain too much.

[Fox Mulder]

Thrust and Compliant One make valid points. One final thought in this debate is the commercial aspect. There seems to be an
assumption from some on this thread that Transpac (and beyond) is the be all and end all. Although important, this market is only ONE of many served by CX and THIS region may well represent far better revenue generating and growth opportunities for the airline. Many many factors needed to be taken into consideration but one very simple calculation would be:
HKG/JFK v.v. = about 30 flying hours?
How many HKG/BKK-HKG/SIN-HKG/NRT-HKG/TPE sectors could be operated for the same
amount of flying hours and what would be the
revenue/contribution comparison. The outcome may surprise
some.
As someone once said "long haul for show, short haul for dough".
Enjoy!

[brushwing]

Thrust, what are you yanking with this Chapter 9 stuff?

I know Ch. 11 (bankruptcy protection)
Ch. 7 (liquidation)

Ch. 9 ???

[brushwing]

Fox Molder, you seem pretty up on these maths stuff, try this one ( I have tried and tried, and in every solution i come up with, I am getting screwed> )

Nick Rodent puts aside 25,000,000 HKD for overtime in the next budget.
How many hours of overtime will you be asked!/(ordered?) to fly in that year?

[jtr]

well brushwing, I reckon there is about 1400 aircrew. For argument sake lets split it into thirds, i.e. 470 s/o's, 470 f/o's, 470 capt.'s. Under the current system o/t is paid at 200,250,300/hr according to rank. If the av. is $250/hr (x 1.25, according to the CoS formula), and the budget is 25 mill, then divided b/t the number of crew comes up with around 57 hours per crew member per year, or around 6 hours per month after leave, and sick leave are considered. (3% is the last figure I can remember the company putting out for s/l, but I'm waiting for corrections) Don't know about you lot, but I am way over that for the october and november rosters. <projection based>

[Fox Mulder]

Brushwing
Sorry I'm ducking out of this. I don't work in FOP and don't know enough about the issues, current and historical, to sensibly comment. I truly wish the relationship with
aircrew was better but it seems positions are awfully entrenched. As Max Thrust said earlier, the aircrew are part of the army and the enemy is out there. I've been around long
enough to remember when that was true.
Outtahere

[Thrust]

Woops, haven't been there myself and got the #'s mixed up. I'm sure chapter 9 is interesting too! You know what I mean I'm sure.

[Compliant One]

Have got a little more time,now.

The special circumstances that USA has in having by far the largest domestic market in the world is something that we in HKG have to admit is an advantage.

USA comes to little HKG and sees a pot of gold that it can muscle in on at marginal cost and will (through the lack of consumer protection legislation in HKG) be able to force out the local carriers by a few years of marginal costings. So their ploy is "We want 5th freedom rights through HKG and you can have 5th freedom to USA through Canada or Mexico."
Unfortunately, 5th freedom with the USA is not worth anything since the country is so large and the neighbours either relatively unpopulated or relatively poor. So the USA is offering nothing in return for this Pot of Gold that they want to dip their greedy paws into.
Now then, if we were to offer them cabotage rights in HKG with unrestricted rights and frequencies between CLK and Sek Kong we could claim cabotage throughout the USA.

So the answer is - link the two. Both 5th freedom AND cabotage OR nothing, thank you very much.

Bullies don't like not getting their own way.

Now for the original theme of this thread - it is better to give SQ the NA routes that we don't have the capacity to operate (why not is another question) so that we get extra 5th freedom through SIN than to let in the USA.

[Samsonite]

Fox, you are right that in the 30 hr time frame it takes an a/c to do Jfk return that you could get alot of BKK,NRT and TPE'S in but is that truly the future? We were told in the last Business brief By Mr TurnBULL that it isn't if open skies is going to happen but when. We were also told that about 55% of our pax connect onto further destinations. If open skies does happen i think our SUPER HUB is an old way of thinking and obviously not the way of thinking of SQ and the rest of the airline industry. More and more airlines are trying to get away from the hub system and do point-point due to pax and also the congestion of the big hubs which brings delays. SQ knowS a person would rather go HK direct SFO rather than connecting down to SIN and then onwards. SQ is taking advantage of this new agreement and so i ask you again Fox when are we going to do the same to them on their home turf?