CASA reply to PPRuNe email re TVL.

[Woomera]

Folks;

Following a fairly determined discussion on this board in regard to an alleged incident involving a Mackay charter operator during a trip to Brampton and the subsequent allegations aired in regard to “protection” and “favouritism” of certain operators we were moved to send the following email to CASA o the 27th December.

Ms Nicola Hinder
Acting Executive Manager
Corporate Affairs
[email protected]
Copy:
Mr Bruce Byron
Chief Executive Officer
cc: by email.
Allegations involving CASA Offices in Far North Queensland
There has been a number of allegations of serious malfeasance, misconduct, oppressive staff management practices and harsh and unjust regulatory action, over a number of years, involving staff at CASA offices in Townsville and Cairns. Recently, those allegations have principally involved the CASA Townsville Manager.
You are invited to read of recent allegations regarding an aircraft accident at Brampton Island on December 15, 2004 (reported to the ATSB), involving Piper Aztec VH-ZHZ and in particular:
• the allegation the operator may not have complied with CASA requirements in respect to the operator’s post accident operation of the aircraft;
• an allegation the operator concerned may enjoy a preferential relationship with CASA, Townsville, by virtue of previous employment with CASA;
• an allegation CASA staff in Townsville are subject to oppressive management policies and practices, resulting in excessive staff stress leave; and
• allegations of vindictive and grossly excessive regulatory action against certain operators, a number of which have been subsequently overturned in the AAT, but at very significant cost to those operators and individuals.
Those allegations are contained in two threads on the PPRuNe bulletin board:
Aircraft incident at Brampton Island:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=156827&perpage=15&pa genumber=1
BB, FNQ aviation needs your help:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=156838
This information is provided as a public service. PPRuNe Administrators and Moderators do not accept responsibility for the accuracy or otherwise contained in user posts to the PPRuNe bulletin board, nor express any opinion as to the veracity of the allegations or statements made.
Woomera
PPRuNe Dunnunda Forum Moderator



The following response, for which we thank Ms Hinder, was received Mon the 17th January 2005.

Woomera
Moderator
Dunnunda and Godzone
Professional Pilots Rumour Network

BY EMAIL: [email protected]



Dear Woomera

I refer to your email of 27 December 2004 enclosing the threads posted on the Professional Pilots Rumour Network (PPRuNe) about the actions of officers of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) in the Far North Queensland Region.

Firstly, thank you for bringing these posts to my attention and allowing CASA the opportunity to comment.

As you have noted in your email, there have been a number of allegations of serious malfeasance, misconduct and oppressive staff management practices and harsh and unjust regulatory action over the last number of years involving staff at CASA offices in Townsville and Cairns. I would like to note a key word here - allegations.

As a result of allegations relating to the behaviour of a small number of CASA staff in the Townsville office being brought to the attention of Mr Bruce Bryon, Chief Executive Officer of CASA, Mr Byron commissioned Mr Stephen Skehill to investigate those allegations. I do not intend to go into the specifics of the allegations themselves as I think it fair to say that the persons concerned have placed some of Mr Skehill's report and their allegations on the public record on PPRuNe and also the people involved deserve their privacy to be maintained.

The final report on the matters investigated by Mr Skehill was provided to CASA on 17 September 2004. The significant conclusion of the Skehill report was that the evidence did not support the allegations that had been raised.


-2-

Like any industry, gossip and rumour within aviation abound and free and open debate of any concerns should be encouraged. I am concerned however that a number of the matters posted about CASA's actions date from some significant time in the past.

I am also concerned that some of the posts imply, and may indeed encourage, threatening behaviour against CASA staff, and many posts seek to identify particular CASA staff as the subjects of the allegations and threats. While CASA is and always should be subject to scrutiny by those its regulates, and consequently have to deal with well-founded and objective criticisms, it is clearly inappropriate (and unlawful) to threaten and seek to intimidate individual CASA officers. I am astounded that posts containing material clearly intended to be threatening to specific individuals are permitted on PPRuNe.

It is clear that a proportion of the posters are motivated to make their comments by personal animosity or long-held grudges against particular individuals, the North Queensland Area Office, or CASA generally. At the end of the day, comments such as those posted about the past actions of the North Queensland Area Office do nothing to help establish a measure of trust and respect between that office and the aviation industry in North Queensland. However, I would like to note some of the positive comments about CASA that have been posted within this thread and echo the comment by Captain Starlight that if operators wish to raise concerns about the actions of CASA, that this be done direct to the CASA CEO, Chief Operating Officer or to myself. I also note the comments made by the 'Sword of Damocles' on
23 December 2004 where he asked that the rest of the North Queensland industry who are quite content with their regulator, not to be dragged into the vitriol.

CASA had thought and hoped that a fresh start had been made during the industry consultation meeting and open forum we held with FNQ operators last year, and had planned a follow-up visit to Cairns later this year. Due to the success of the meeting in Cairns a visit to Townsville has also been planned.

It appears however that despite this commitment to a fresh start, and the considerable efforts made by the new Area Manager of the North Queensland Area Office, Mr Alan Cook, and the stated intentions of Mr Byron, Mr White and myself at the meeting that an open and effective relationship between us be developed and maintained, there are some who remain unconvinced.

As such, Mr White, Mr Cook and I are planning a visit to the area in the near future.
Should there be any persons who have posted on PPRuNE who would like to opportunity to personally raise their concerns during this visit, they
should feel free to contact my office on (02) 6217 1010. While I note your
post that there are operators who are afraid to raise their concerns, even anonymously, I can nothing more than assure PPRuNE readers that should matters be raised, they will be dealt with seriously and in-confidence.

-3-

Alternatively, may I suggest that commencement of topics that lead to threats of violence or specifically mention CASA officers, be re-considered.


Yours sincerely



Nicola Hinder
Acting Executive Manager
Corporate Affairs

Whilst I must reiterate
PPRuNe Administrators and Moderators do not accept responsibility for the accuracy or otherwise contained in user posts to the PPRuNe bulletin board, nor express any opinion as to the veracity of the allegations or statements made.
We simply moderate according to the rules of PPRuNe, the direction of the forum discussion is yours not ours.

I would also remind PPRuNe users:
While CASA is and always should be subject to scrutiny by those its regulates, and consequently have to deal with well-founded and objective criticisms, it is clearly inappropriate (and unlawful) to threaten and seek to intimidate individual CASA officers. my bolding.

Objective, calm and deliberative discussion is always welcome and indeed encouraged here, particularly if it fosters constructive dialogue between the parties especially including DOTARS, CASA and Airservices and contributes to the well being and safe operation of our industry.

I have no doubt that should you wish to use these forums to address specific or general issues directly to the regulators here in a calm, responsible and deliberative manner you will receive an appropriate response.

If I may take the liberty of paraphrasing Foyls succinct observation in the manner of conducting dialogue with our industry partners.

We can only go forward from here by a shift of view away from the stance that CASA and Airservices are evil entities with the sole aim of maliciously destroying GA. We need to come up with solutions instead of yelping about issues and telling everyone how unfair we think it is. We need to move far, far away from the current rhetoric in order to regain credibility, with the regulators.

The tools are right there on the screen in front of you, these pages are monitored by the regulators and you may and should speak directly to them.
If you do so with the same respect that you are in the habit of demanding from them and others you might just resolve your problem or clarify the issue.
You may not always get the answer you want or expect, but unless you engage with them, you will never find out the why and the wherefore of their decisions, nor have the opportunity to provide the input that they seriously and sincerely desire in order to resolve the issue to your mutual satisfaction.

Creampuff avers;Perhaps the vocal minority’s the problem, not the solution

We all have the choice which one would you choose to be:

Part of solution

Or

Part of the problem.

Mr Byron and his team sincerely want us all to be part of the solution, they are doing their part to the best of their individual abilities, what are you doing. They will always have the support of PPRuNe to enable them to express their point of view whenever it is appropriate. You of course will always, within the bounds of PPRuNe rules, have the right of reply.

Next time you want to “slip it to em”, let’s see if we can do it in a non confrontational and constructive form, from which point both parties can learn and go forward.

Over to you, it’s your Forum, use it constructively, it’s entirely possible that as a pretty broad cross section of the industry, you can collectively be more effective than some of the narrow focus organisations that claim to represent your interests to Government.

The Woomeri

[Binoculars]

I support both Pprune's right to raise matters of concern and CASA's right to respond, but something strikes me as odd.

(From CASA) Firstly, thank you for bringing these posts to my attention and allowing CASA the opportunity to comment.

(From Pprune) The tools are right there on the screen in front of you, these pages are monitored by the regulators

So, do CASA monitor these pages or not? If they do, why are they reluctant to admit it? And if not, why not?

[Maximus B]

While my personal experience doesn't support the Skehill report I must say the behaviour of many on PPRuNe seems to have dont any credibility it may have had a lot of harm.

Max

[Mainframe]

Woomeri

This augers well for the future.

There is natural scepticism on reports though, that do not encompass all concerned.

Starlight, yes, I agree with some of what you say.
There is rational and reasoned thoughts contained here by both NH and the Woomeri

[Woomera]

Binos

Woomeri drew CASA's attention to the PPRuNe threads. I would not suggest CASA religiously "monitor" these pages, however it's a fair bet far more people read these pages than care to admit - after all, PPRuNe gets over a million page hits per day. And if a regulator wants to stay in touch with industry thinking, PPRuNe is one measure available.

After all, this is a public forum with both significant aviation industry user contribution and significant readership.

Woomera

[swh]

Bino,

So, do CASA monitor these pages or not? If they do, why are they reluctant to admit it? And if not, why not?

I know a lot of FOI's do read pprune...

I think they are a bit gun shy about using the "information" posted here on pprune as in the past the AAT threw the "information" (pprune posts) out as it was deemed not to be "evidence".

I know FOI's have in the past picked up the phone and had a friendly chat to people after reading something on pprune, and I know CASA have issued two aviation rulings based upon some stuff I have posted here on pprune.

:ok:

[the wizard of auz]

In response to the letter from CASA , I would like to assure readers that I was in no way implying or encouraging any threats toward any CASA staff.
I was only expressing surprise, that if these alledged incidents were occuring with as much vindictivness and regularity as was being reported, that somebody hadn't lost the plot and got all personal about it.
I in no way encourage or condone such behaviour.

[victor two]

I haven't fully followed this thread as it all just got too churlish but I say good on CASA for responding and monitoring the boards anyway. Why should they tolerate angry little halfwits making threats on their staff without response ?

Good to see some of those who were involved now trying to clarify what they reaallllly mean't isn't it!

[Captain Starlight]

As stated on the other thread, I am forced to accept that CASA has fully investigated the Townsville office by way of the Skehill report.
That report found that there was no basis for the allegations made.

There was no problem.

The problem, that didn't exist, was investigated and confirmed that, it didn't exist.

Therefore I suggest we all go on our way,
happy in the knowledge that CASA does and will investigate properly any complaints against it.

This was all just a silly misunderstanding on the industry's part
and all that money shouldn't have been spent defending the operators
from what the AAT could clearly see was misconduct.

A cup of tea and a chat hopefully will in future save everyone from repeating such embarrassing mistakes.

As stated elsewhere, I'm going to rest a while
and wait for the problems that didn't exist being handled in an appropriate manner.

The Truth is out there, and the Truth will prevail.

bye for now, CS

[Stink Finger]

Nicola, well done on becoming an active part of this process, all of us here want our industry to be able to work hand in hand with CASA and work towards common goals.

Quote: I also note the comments made by the 'Sword of Damocles' on 23 December 2004 where he asked that the rest of the North Queensland industry who are quite content with their regulator, not to be dragged into the vitriol.

Response: as this is Sword of Damocles first and only post on the forum and responding against the general consensus, perhaps this person has a personal interest in this stopping in its tracks ( as we all do to ensure it doesn't), could i be as rude as to suggest this poster is one of the persons we are talking about within this topic, as opposed to someone within the industry?.

How many people have posted in support of Sword of Damocles ?.

For information, within the BPI topic, there is right now a total of 64 posts from 25 different posters, of these twenty five, only one has had anything positive to say about CASA TL's performance, as has been mentioned, it is not all the members of CASA TL we are finding it impossible to work with.

82.8 % of posts in the BPI are critical of the TLFO TL ( and the other three FOI's previously described ),
15.4 % of posts in the BPI were of a neutral nature,
1.8 % of posts were supportive of the TLFO TL,
18 of the 25 posters are critical of the TLFO TL,
5 of the 25 posters were neutral, and
1 of the 25 poster was supportive of the TLFO TL.

To look at the other posts, BB, FNQ and Does CASA have .....
its again all the same faces, the new addition to the pro CASA group is Creampuff - for those of us that know who creampuff is in the real world, it makes perfect sense ( creampuff, nothing but respect to you, you are entitled to your opinion ).

For quite some time information like what is being presented here has been presented to CASA Management in CB, in just about every form possible, irrate CP's/Directors on the doors step, Motivated Local Members, members of the media ( who were shown the door ), letters, faxes, emails, Documentarys on ABC, AAT hearings, Court Hearings, pretty much every medium available, apparently no action.

If CASA wants to turn over a new leaf, they have to get rid of this dead wood, there is far too much bad blood in the industry from having dealt with these four fools, they have to go before you will be taken seriously.

Soon enough you have to look at the trend here, gee theres alot of people complaining, mmm?.

As a member of the industry i feel it is a shame that the new enforcement proceedures have been commissioned, yes it protects us, but from whom or what ?, now CASA effectively can't do squat, without a long drawn out trip to the AAT, to date CASA has a pretty terrible record at the AAT, to what end, De-empowering of CASA, is this good ?.

These new proceedures have been commissioned to control over zealous CASA types as described within these topics.

I, and i am sure many others like me will engage in this process, but if no action is seen, and soon, we will vote with our feet, assuming of course Australia is still a democracy.



Stink. The Woomera team accepts implicitly the necessity of an accountable regulator and accepts that the vast majority of CASA employees are dedicated to ensuring safe air travel. If rogue elements exist, we are totally confident CASA management will take appropriate action.

The fact CASA saw fit to respond to an anonymous aviation bulletin board is indicative of their desire to work harmoniously with industry to achieve their legislative objectives. That in itself is possibly a fundamental philosophical change from what many believe has been their historical perspective. For that, Ms Hinder and CASA management must be applauded.

I believe our task is now to support CASA to ensure change both benefits the industry and the traveling public.

Woomera

[the wizard of auz]

Victor two, in response to your addition.
Why should they tolerate angry little halfwits making threats on their staff without response ?Good to see some of those who were involved now trying to clarify what they reaallllly mean't isn't it!
First off,If I intended to make a threat, I would have done it without hiding the fact that it was a threat. I aint a little angry halfwit, until know all, smart ass, cowards like your self piss me off. then I'm an big angry halfwit thats likly to kick your ass if you have the brass to front me your self..............but alas, it will never happen because you like hide under a clever name on a public board, so I won't bother getting angry.
second, after rereading the thread, I notice that, unless some posts have been deleated, mine was one of the comments that could be construed as threatening, and this wasn't my intention, so I posted to make that clear. why do you have a problem with that?.
could be coz your a friggen half wit maybe?.
If I intend to say sumint buddy, I'll say it. straight out, no hidden meanings or any of that crap, and I make no secret of who I am in the real world.
I think it might be you that really has a problem, not me.:hmm:
Have yerself a bloody Bonza day.
cheers, Wiz.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Very positive times ahead, NH, i'd also like to thank you for your input.

I have had dealings with AC, he's exactly what we need in FNQ to bring these new ways of doing business into operation.

It's probably been 5 years since i've seen an FOI / AWI at the aeroclub for a friday arvo drink, does CASA employ tea toaters now ?.

Woomera - it is most definately a fundamental phylosophical change, and good to see.

Wiz - I personally would not have taken what you said as an attack on any individual, more of an ocker australianism for your disbelief of what you were reading.

[Creampuff]

There is at least one other explanation which makes perfect sense, Stink Finger, and that’s that the allegations are unsupported by the facts.

We may just be seeing another lap of the tired old aviation merry go round, during which a new CEO and AM in CASA will have their intelligence and integrity insulted when they beg to differ from the same tired old accusers. We can certainly add Mr Skehill to the list of eminent and powerful people insulted this time ‘round.

There’s no trend here. It’s the same people bearing the same grudges, year in, year out. They’ll go to the grave bearing those grudges. It’s the aviation equivalent of the family feud between the Hatfields and the McCoys, and it’s no coincidence it occurs in the aviation equivalent of Deliverance territory.

If there is any corruption in CASA - and I’m sure there is a tiny minority of bad apples in any organisation - I hope it is exposed and dealt with immediately. If I didn’t have anything important to do, I’d start with exposing the mates of Torres and Walking Eagle in CASA, who, rather than doing what the taxpayers are paying them to do, leak half truths and selective information, in breach of various criminal laws.

[Stink Finger]

CreamPuff,

I agree it is a small group within CASA, in most part the CASA folk i've delt with have been great

quote:If I didn’t have anything important to do, I’d start with exposing the mates of Torres and Walking Eagle in CASA, who, rather than doing what the taxpayers are paying them to do, leak half truths and selective information, in breach of various criminal laws.

Creampuff, i dare you to, lets see where that will take us.

You may consider this a merry go round, there are alot of new faces here and they don't appear to be spectators, they share their experiences, and the pattern of inpropriety continues, different operators, different directors, different CP's, different routes, different aircraft, years apart, but one thing stays the same.

Torres for example recieved his special treatment 5 odd years ago, how many cycles have we been through since then, perhaps it is still an issue that is well and truly alive, has justice been served, i think not.

If, lets say an allegation can't be proved, but many many people are making pretty much verbatim the same allegation, is this grounds for concern ?, it would certainly indicate a trend.

These allegations have in the AAT been proven a number of time, by CASA being booted out of the hearing, MAINFRAME, what was the term that was used at the AAT describing TLFO TL conduct, " Despicable ", i believe ?.

[Creampuff]

Stink

Thank you for making my point.

If we want to cite the AAT’s comments about CASA as evidence of impropriety (a reasonable thing to do, in my view) we need to review everything the AAT has said about CASA in order to make an objective assessment of the extent of the impropriety. Otherwise, we’re being a little selective and prejudiced, don’t you think?

For every AAT hearing in which CASA has been criticised, there are 2 dozen where the AAT has decided that CASA has made the correct and preferable decision. Crunch those numbers for me, and let me know how you interpret them.

That outcome is a little inconvenient for CASA’s accusers. So they take the logical next step and say that the AAT runs scared every time CASA says “safety”. But the duplicity of that position is exposed when, upon sober reflection, one releases that CASA always says “safety”, and yet, as you have pointed out, the AAT occasionally disagrees with CASA and even gives it a caning now and then. That’s why the AAT was created.

And then there’s the line about the AAT not being “a real court”. If we look at superior court decisions, the success rate is not as high for CASA, but it still ‘wins’ more often than not. However, I note that the side which ‘wins’ battles in administrative law sometimes doesn’t win the war, so it’s difficult to extrapolate from the decisions. Except to say I haven’t seen a judgement in which a Federal Court judge describes any action of CASA as corrupt or malicious. In the only Federal Court matter of which I am aware that those accusations were levelled against CASA, the judge was so unimpressed with the case that he awarded costs against the accusing counsel personally.

Torres didn’t receive any “special treatment”, at least not in a negative sense. The organisation for which he worked broke the rules, regulatory action was taken, and when the regulator was satisfied the organisation was capable of complying with the rules, the regulatory action ended. While Torres and any journalist around are of course free selectively to quote whatever facts they like about the circumstances, and to put whatever spin on them they like, they’re more than a little naïve if they think no one’s going to tell the other side of the story, on the first and only occasion the accusations were investigated.

Torres’ legitimate complaint relates not to corruption, but to the complete policy vacuum and progress on classification of operations “reform”. The government doesn’t know what it wants for GA and, in case you haven’t worked it out by now, it doesn’t care.

[Maximus B]

Creamy.

Spot on with your last comment.

Unfortunately while GA continues to gnaw its own arm off by way of infigting, attacks on competetors, attacks on kid pilots struggling for the first few hours, attacks on AOPA, attacks on ATC and while the 'bigger end' continues the myth of 'commercial airspace' and a them and us attitude, why should the government care. ( if they get worried for a second they only have to read these threads to reassure themselves we remain in disharmony and subsequent dissaray).

GA is effectively neutering itself as a lobby force.

Max

[Stink Finger]

Creamy, i would agree with you on a number of points:

1> the inpropriety can be measured by looking at the results of the AAT, why hasn't actual positve action been taken.

2> the term "safety" being used as a get out of goal free card for CASA TL.

3> he who wins the battle does not neccesarily win the war, is this natural justice ?.


Points i disagree with:

1> the AAT successes out weight failures, i do not see this and this is a terrible shame, either CASA has been effectively de-empowered by the actions of the rogue elements or CASA has crap lawyers.

2> the industry is not working together, due to the nature of the vindictive individuals within TL, by covert means, through the AM, Current Affair, web sites, hundreds of hours talking between competing companies, sharing of information between companies, it is pretty much building a two camp policy, the industry front and CASA's front, i want to see this stop, i want to see trust and an open door policy, have you ever tried to get a straight yes or no answer out of a FOI or AWI ?.

3> Torres recieved a fair go, he was not the only operator conducting these operations in the Straits, but he got the latex glove treatment, which essentially caused the financial demise of the company, he was made an example of, what about all the other examples of good and bad outcome for different operators, BPI incident, Mark peert/ cloncurry mustering, there are more.

Vacumm policy, where the hell does it talk about fixed terminal, routes or shared charter within the Regs ?, nothing has in essence changed, there are still the same inconsistencies, since before Torres's time ( for example ), it still all comes down to ones interpretation of the intent of the regulation, i.e. the delegate must be satisfied, satisfied with what ?.

[Mainframe]

Cream Puff

Where there is smoke there is fire !

Whilst Skehill was satisfied that there was no basis in the allegations,
it seems that quite a number of entities and identities were harmed by misconduct.
The majority were in the industry, but some are / were CASA employees.


Do you really suggest they all were confused or mistaken?

Trips to Canberra from Cairns cost money and they were not undertaken lightly.
There must have been an overwhelming sense of injustice to consider undertaking such a trip,
not only were there travel expenses, there was loss of revenue, and the cost of legal teams.
As most of your travel and expenses were taxpayer funded in the past,
you may not appreciate the costs, except when glancing at your travel expense form when you handed it in.

These people were not taxpayer funded,
and the decision to travel to Canberra, although expensive, was driven by despair.

Maybe the terms of reference for Skehill's report were either selective or perhaps too narrow?

Perhaps BB might have been well advised to also have had Skehill investigate the recent Head Office rogue element revolt,
they too may have been found free of blame by Skehill and might still be in their positions of influence.

If CASA was once your source of income, your loyalty is commendable,
but loyalty sometimes has to stand aside for reality.
There is some smoke out there, and just maybe there is a fire.

That Skehill saw the smoke but couldn't find the fire is a possibility that you may need at some time to concede.

On the whole, the regulator has some fine people working for them.
And as you correctly observe, they may also have a small rogue element, as BB recently discovered.

On the whole, the industry has some fine people working within it. And it too has a small rogue element.
(Isn't this the reason we have a regulator?)

However, there is no regulator for the regulator.
Invariably, misconduct can be conducted with impunity,
and laughed about in the sanctuary of their unassailable fortress.

The "Phelan papers" meticulously document the history of misconduct, and will continue to do so.

Having said that, I am of the sincere belief that Bruce Byron
intends to make life uncomfortable for the rogue element

Nicola Hinder has signalled her intent to support Bruce Byron's reforms
and the appointment of Alan Cook to Area Manager, Townsville is seen by most to be a very positive move.
(almost all who deal with AC are surprised and impressed by his very genuine sincerity and consequently he is restoring trust at long last.)

[gaunty]

Mainframe :ok:

On the whole, the regulator has some fine people working for them.
And as you correctly observe, they may also have a small rogue element, as BB recently discovered.

On the whole, the industry has some fine people working within it. And it too has a small rogue element.

Quite so;


The "Phelan papers" meticulously document the history of misconduct, (CASA) and will continue to do so.


Quite so;

AND he would gain some real credibility if he were also to;
meticulously document the history of misconduct, of the operators whom he is wont to describe as the "victims".

Two wrongs don't make a right and neither is justice served by a self serving journalistic beating up without the other side being appropriately represented.

It is true that in the past, despite the pathetic bleating of self appointed retired airline captain gurus, the only thing that they, CASA (and I may exclude the TVL bits) or whatever they may have been called at the time, may be guilty of, is the lack of a really effective apparatus to prosecute the real villains in the industry.

I can hear the howls of limelight deprived anguish in the background, preparation of stakes for witches burning thereof and with the usual demonising of anybody who suggests that CASA may well have had some justification, however misused, in attempting to prosecute their mission. :rolleyes:

I.E regulating the industry, fairly and equitably..

Mr. Byron has a difficult task; there is/are no end of people in the organisation who are very capable of supporting him. The problem is that they are so gunshy, (see journalistic beating up above) that it will take no end of encouragement and building of trust within the organisation to winkle them out.

Mr. Byron has the means, ably supported by Mr. Gemmel, mr Cook and Ms Hinder to whom we should give our unequivocal support; we do not have any choice. :ok:

The serious almost terminal damage they are earnestly trying to repair is a result of the unrelenting years (about a decade or so circa 1995 RH Smith et al) of egomaniacal posturing of self appointed “industry gurus”.

That was then this is now.

Get with the programme people, or bugger off. :)

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Stinky,
for info, its Mark Peart, Carpentaria Helicopters. :)

Creampuff,
with the concept of natural justice be commisioned within our industry, where does the line between "Freedom of Information" and "Natural Justice" lie ?, for example in the past an operator may have requested info under FOI, and was subsequently denied this info, can this now be requested as a part of the " Natural Justice" concept ?.

Thanks.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

justapplhere, this is not that sort of party.

Everyone here has a history and everyone has made a mistake at some time in their life ( not suggesting that to be the case or not ), play nice.

This particular topic is very important to the livelyhoods of a great number of people and due to NH's response has become an avenue for industry input direct to BB, CASA.

[Creampuff]

Mainframe

If you review my comments on this forum, you will find that I’ve criticised CASA when I think it deserves criticism, and I defend it when I think it deserves defending.

If there’s fire, let’s get it exposed and extinguised. However, and to extend the conflagrational metaphor, there are lots of hoax callers out there, and many fire bugs are members of the fire brigade.

There is a regulator for the regulator. There’s the Commonwealth Ombudsman, the Federal Police, the AAT, the Federal Court, your local member, your Senators, Parliamentary committees the Minister, the Prime Minister ….

Your point about resources is a fair one. However, each of the institutions/mechanisms set out above includes provisions for waiving of fees/hardship etc. A complaint to the ombudsman costs nothing, and can be made over the telephone. Indeed, I think the last time I chatted with the person who is now the ombudsman he was investigating a complaint against someone in the Townsville office, part of which complaint he agreed with.

The way it works in our society is that if you can’t convince one or more of them that someone’s done something wrong, or that something should be changed, then that’s it: game over.


Stink

I suggest you start here: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/aat/ with a search of the term “CASA”. I commend in particular this matter: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/aat/1999/329.html which refutes your point about the “latex glove treatment” compared with other operators.

I agree with your point about “the industry not working together”, but disagree with your suggested cause. The feud in the area to which you refer just happens to be exacerbated because relatives of the Hatfields and the McCoys have at various time been employed by the regulator.

LRT

I am not quite sure I understand your question. There are exclusions from the obligation to disclose information under FOI. There are no exclusions (other than legal privilege) from discovery if you get into litigation, for example, if you make a claim that you are being or were denied natural justice in a CASA decision. But people often use the term "natural justice" without understanding what it actually means.

[Mainframe]

Cream Puff

There is a regulator for the regulator.

All of the avenues you suggest do exist.

Are you aware of any direct result from the Commonwealth Ombudsman with regard to CASA?

The AAT merely is the "Video Referee", it reviews and either upholds the on-field referee's decision, or dismisses it.
The AAT does not send anyone to the "Sin Bin".

The Minister has been involved, but only on the sidelines.
He directed, via parliamentary action,
that a stalled process (23 months to approve a check list for a simple GA Cessna) be actioned.

The local member has been involved in every instance of misconduct.
Whilst his intentions are good and he does go into bat,
it appears that for some reason he is not taken seriously by the Minister
and consequently doesn't seem to have many runs on the board.
It is also possibly his last term in office prior to retirement.

That still leaves some avenues, but the report already at hand alleges "No Problem",
and making it precarious grounds to revisit.

Despite all this, BB is actually astute enough to realise what is really happening
and will initiate appropriate strategies that will transparently remedy the problems that don't exist.

The need for transparency is essential to maintain the proper image of the regulator,
so people will just quietly move on, be transferred, pensioned off, even resign with subtle pressure.
Sackings are too obvious and present the avenue of vicarious culpability to an aggrieved litigant.

[Sunfish]

Following on from the Townsville investigation, I would like to suggest that CASA has done the right thing.

I will try and put this as delicately as I can.

Now that an investigation has occured and found no evidence, I would be very, very surprised if any of you ever again has cause (real or imagined) to make any allegation against that office in the foreseeable future.


Good solution CASA

:ok:

[Stink Finger]

We need more CASA FOI's and AWI's on the ground, especially guys/girl from within the respective industry, NOT ex Military, ex Airline of PNG, Flying school/RFDS, Ansett, drop outs ( all pretty much NTE - "Never To Be Employed again" back grounds ).

I want to see FOIs/AWIs with succesfull career records, proven track records as CP and or ATO / CE, time on types, experience in the locality, industry contacts and a can do open door attitude.

[Woomera]

CEO DIRECTIVE – 016/2004
Development of Regulations and the Regulatory Framework
Date of Directive: 24 November 2004
To: Bruce Gemmell
Action Officer: Not Applicable
Title of Addressee: Not Applicable
Directive No: 016/2004
Response Required: Immediate Effect

Directive
This Directive is issued to establish guiding principles for the development of the regulatory framework and to provide clear guidance for the development of proposed aviation safety regulations.
Guiding Principles for Regulatory Framework
• Aviation safety regulations are to be developed on the basis of addressing known or likely safety risks. Each proposed regulation is to be assessed against the contribution it will make to aviation safety.
• Wherever possible, the CASRs are to be drafted to specify the safety outcome required, unless, in the interests of safety, and to address known or likely aviation safety risks, detailed requirements need to be presented.
• Wherever possible, aviation safety regulations are to be developed within a two tier regulatory framework comprising the Civil Aviation Act and the Civil Aviation Safety Regulations (CASRs), supported by advisory material that details acceptable means of compliance with the CASRs, together with appropriate guidance material.
• Manuals of Standards (MOSs) are to be developed only where there is a clear requirement, on the basis of safety, to mandate standards that for the purpose of clarity should not be contained in the Regulations.
• The content of proposed MOSs must also be assessed against the contribution made to aviation safety.
• A MOS must only contain such standards as are clearly authorised by a particular regulation and must not be used as a vehicle for promulgating advisory material and other information.
All proposed CASA Parts and MOSs are to be assessed against the guiding principles stated above.
Signed Bruce Byron Chief Executive Officer


As you can see it has been happening for quite some time.

Now everybody wants to claim Mr. Byron as their man following their guidance. :rolleyes:

We choose to believe that Mr. Byron always had and has a very clear idea of where CASA needs to go.

Mr. Byron, Mr. Gemmel and his team will always listen politely and calmly to representations as they should, but will in the end do what is the best within their charter and the terms of their appointment. For any party to claim “ownership” of a change is, without direct acknowledgement, both insolent and impertinent.

This is supposed to be called working together.

[Creampuff]

Mainframe

Yes, I am aware of circumstances in which investigations by the ombudsman of complaints against CASA have been resolved to the satisfaction of the complainant.

As to the rest of your comments, I can only reiterate one of the points I made earlier. The way our society works is that if we can’t or won’t convince one of more of those institutions that something wrong has been done to us, or to change something that we don’t like, that’s it: game over.

If BB is indeed aware of someone who deserves to be sacked, I’d be very surprised and disappointed if he didn’t sack them.

Woomera:

I too looked askance at the claims made about the provenance and magical powers of that CEO directive. The head of an organisation signs a piece of paper that in effect says the standards division must do what it is allowed to do and must not do what it is not allowed to do, and the “Peace for our time!” crowd comes out of the woodwork. It’s not like the standards division hasn’t known that for the last decade. The problem is that everyone has a crystal clear understanding of what has to be done, but everyone’s crystal clear understanding is different from the others’, and the last thing any Minister or CEO is going to do is step in and make a decision, because then they would be responsible.

[Sunfish]

The directive sounds fine to me. So do CASA's actions as far as I can tell.

I suggest that those of you who are waiting for 'justice" over wrongs done years ago (real or imaginary) are wasting your time. CASA is looking at the future and I think it is neither productive or practical to rake over old grievances and reopen old wounds. There is not enough time.

[gaunty]

Sunfish

Amen to that.:cool:

andNow that an investigation has occured and found no evidence, I would be very, very surprised if any of you ever again has cause (real or imagined) to make any allegation against that office in the foreseeable future. this too.

:ok:

Creampuff quite rightly, looks askance.

Problem is, the usual opportunists now see the chance to vindicate their past actions by continuing to be vindictive
both in their actions, mind numbing rhetoric, the form of language they continue to use to convey it and their hilarious and undignified scramble to the high ground. :{

Get on the bus folks or get out of town, there is men’s work to be done here. Sorry Nicola I couldn't think of a gender neutral word here, but you know what I mean. :ok:

[Mainframe]

Cream Puff and Sunfish

CP,
Thank you for your reassurance that the system has checks and balances.

Yes, when you have been genuinely wronged and can afford to be properly represented,
there is a strong possibility that the AAT will uphold your appeal.
This has happened for some of the wronged, no doubt about it.

HOWEVER, this costs buckets of money and the AAT does not award costs.

So we have a system that permits a government department to act improperly, unethically or what you will,
and an appeal tribunal that can restrain the effects of such activity.

The person and his government department that initiates the misconduct is taxpayer funded.


The defendant or applicant must personally fund the appeal (defence against misconduct),
and when the decision is handed down, there is no restitution, nor awarding of costs.

The offenders can then launch another taxpayer funded foray for their personal pleasure, often against the same entity.

If you work for the governement, this is a great system,
costs you nothing and you act with impunity.

For the victim, this process will see your cash reserves rapidly depleted, and no matter how much is spent,
there will be no compensation for that amount even if you are proven right.

As blatant lying and dishonesty often appears as the stock in trade of CASA,
it would seem that BB needs to introduce, and enforce, a Code of Conduct that has a strong Ethical flavour.


No wonder this has been CASA's playground for a long time.

SF,
You are on the right track with regard to the calibre and quality of CASA potential employees.
Nothing much can be done about the some of the misfits that crept in when no one was looking.

I don't have a serious problem with ex Mil, Ex APNG, ex RFDS/Flying school,

PROVIDED that they can substantiate a successful PREVIOUS aviation career.

That some of the present crop has an impressive history of failure and lack of achievement
is cause for concern, primarily because these attributes may be precursors to latent
psychological problems that will manifest themselves as behavioural problems
when implanted in an unaccountable environment, as we have seen happen.

The wording "or Military equivalent" should be interpreted with greater scrutiny.
BB and the AM have impressive and credible achievement records although from a military background
and I am more than comfortable with that. Others, definitely not.

I am not comfortable with under achievers with questionable backgrounds be they
Ex Mil, Ex RFDS, Ex Flying School, Ex APNG or whatever.

Ultimately BB needs respected professionals to deal with the respected professionals in the industry.

Industry expects to deal at a peer level, not as a paroled convict dealing with a police officer.

And lastly Sunfish, I share your optimism with regard to the problem that didn't exist being fixed.

However, I will fully believe it when the vocation redeployment of Batman and Robin
(The "Illustrious Leader" and his besotted "Pinnochio") has actually been implemented.

Only then, with the cancerous growth excised, can this office and the AM move forward.

[Captain Starlight]

SUNFISH

CS, yawning, stretching and waking up.

"What's this? The problem fixed? "

Mainframe, how about Batman and Robin driving off in the Bat Mobile to somewhere they are more needed!

I'm going back to sleep, please don't wake me until the problem can be seen to fixed.

[Bizpax]

Glad someone sees something positive coming out of the FNQ mess! Cos us passengers could sure do with a real regulator catching the cheats and freeing the good guys up to do what they do best.

like all government agencies, CASA already has a code of conduct/ethics and the posted Directive about safety regulation seems to be telling CASA how to suck eggs. Hey, strange notion that safety regulations weren't actually always addressed at known aviation risks! What the heck has it been trying to do for decades? CASA has got to be the most interfered with government aviation organisation in the world.

What CASA needs in order to be an effective safety regulator is some actual aviation policy (which no one has developed for the last decade except under the crazy malign influence of the Mr Smiths), lack of political interference (I mean the sort of interference that comes from sqeaky wheels hightailing it right to the Minister anytime they've got their knickers in a knot), a steady leader at the top (no more pilots just a bureaucrat please), no more reorganisations (scared people don't make good decisions), people with actual regulatory and safety management skills not pilots (luv you guys but pilots should be in aircraft), policy advisors in the Department that actually know a bit about aviation and constructive support from the industry (instead of constant undermining by ex-CASA dropouts and inflated egos).

Let's hope the mysterious and seemingly autocratic (what's with the 'directives') BB actually has some good ideas and doesn't further ruin what could be a world leading organisation.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

"people with actual regulatory and safety management skills not pilots (luv you guys but pilots should be in aircraft)"

So am i to understand that industry knowledge is not important ?, this must be a wind up as no one could seriously suggest that, unless they've been sniffing glue.

"constructive support from the industry (instead of constant undermining by ex-CASA dropouts and inflated egos)"

i definately have not seen that, most ga industry leaders, are usually ATO's and the like have worked for CASA, got their approvals, done a few years and gone back to their true passion, flying, there isn't too many that are disgruntled with CASA as an organisation.

[Mainframe]

Bizpax

Very interested to hear that CASA has a code of conduct/ethics.

As a concerned passenger, suggest you read "Murder of an Airline" and the lack of ethics used by CASA to selectively shut down Ansett.

You might also read some of the transcripts of AAT hearings and also parliamentary reports on dishonesty by CASA.

If there is a code of conduct no one seems to be aware of it.
Perhaps you could expound on this.

As a concerned passenger you might also read some of the threads on LCC's.
We have ignored the safety problems that resulted in multiple fatalities following the deregulation of carriers in the US.

QF1 Bangkok had undertones of the influence of cost cutting without proper impact analysis.

There appears to be emerging trends driven by $39 fares that will eventually come home to roost.

These are, as you suggest, the proper hunting grounds for CASA, not hounding established and compliant operators
while some less compliant operators benefit from the inappropiate diversion of resources away from them.

To a lay person, CASA is doing a great job. To those directly interfacing with them,
they understand that there is room for serious improvement and it is starting to happen.

The decline of the regulator in NZ, and it's subsequent rebirthing into a functioning body also make good study.

I suspect that BB may have observed their mistakes in their decline,
and learned from the culture change that brought them back into line with their mandated tasks.

Cultural change is always difficult, and always resisted.
Sometimes the only solution is "High Velocity Culture Change" and there is a published manifesto for achieving that.

Somehow I suspect that you are not a lay person and may have a deeper understanding of Civil Aviation.

[Creampuff]

Bizpaz: Hear! Hear!

Mainframe: I think you’re going to be a little disappointed if it turns out BB is not the Messiah, but just another naughty boy.

[Mainframe]

CP

I quite readily accept that he may be in fact just a naughty boy on $400,000+ per annum,
however, until proven otherwise, he IS The Messiah.

Minister Anderson and many others are watching to see if he actually can perform the odd miracle or two.
And, like the messiah, Judas is lurking somewhere in the background for his pieces of silver.

Given the rhetoric without action, he may also be the false prophet.

All very interesting, but somehow I think he has to actually prove that
he is the Messiah by doing something measurable, sooner or later.

And if he can survive on that miserable salary for another year or two,
and retire, do you really think he gives a rats a...se anyway?

[Stink Finger]

Heard on the grape vine today that CASA FNQ has just employed a new FOI for CS, wait for it.

He's the present CFI of BAE Flight Training in Adelaide, now does this guy know anything about the area, is he endorsed with considerable time on the fleets he will be over seeing ?, does he have any history in the region ?, has he any discernable charter experience?.

JM you must be on drugs to employ someone with this resume over some of the other applicants, particularly a well respected present FOI applicant from TL.

Creampuff, those AAT transcripts seem to be incompleted, particularly the CYAS/UZU ones, yeh the bits that make the TLFO looks less than competent dont seem to be there.

[Icarus2001]

does he have any history in the region ?, I would venture to suggest that someone from outside the region would see the situation with unbiased eyes. Anyone with "a history in the region" would or could be seen to have bias.

[Stink Finger]

Icarus,

and what of the more important other stuff, that effects one ability to do their actual job, like:

"Is he endorsed with considerable time on the fleets he will be over seeing ?"

"has he any discernable charter experience?."

"does this guy know anything about the area ?"

these things are critical, employing these people from afar, to date have caused a great deal of problems for CASA, when will they learn ?.

This bloke may infact be an easy going, open door positive type, but the term "tits on a bull" comes to mind.

[bushy]

Our regulator has always been a COMMERCIAL REGULATOR. not a SAFETY REGULATOR like they should be.

[Frank Burden]

If it is the one I am thinking of, then a great choice has been made. Very professional, great lateral thinker, and not easily put off by the bulldu$t surrounding an issue.

[Cousin Cletus]

and what of the more important other stuff, that effects one ability to do their actual job up here, like:

Can the boy play a banjo...........:}

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Now Cletus, boy, i may be your uncle, but i'm still yer father.

How many active fixed wing flying schools are in the CS area, 2 i think.

[Cousin Cletus]

Can the boy marinate a mackeral............:}

[Mainframe]

Cousin Cleatus and LHRT

Appreciate the input, but please refrain from trivialising what is hopefully a serious reform process.
As the regulator is closely monitoring this thread, how about sticking to constructive comment.

If you just want to play, there are other threads that can accommodate you on Pprune.

This is, after all, the PROFESSIONAL pilot's rumour network, so professionalism please.


OK so we have a substantive rumour that a new FOI is heading north.
Does this mean an existing FOI heading south or out?

YBCS currently has two FOI's one acting under duress and one with a reasonable degree of ethics.
Will there now be three, as in the past, or has the axe fallen?

Any news on Batman and Robin and their replacements?

[Captain Starlight]

Mainframe

Batman and Robin off elsewhere to hunt down evildoers?
Great news, when is this likely?

Stinkie

You're firing some accurate shots, AAT filtering etc for damage control wrt TLFO.

Also JM's role in this sordid business, rumoured to be protecting TLFO for reasons at this stage unknown.
Realistically, with BB looking very hard at HO staff,
might be time for JM to distance himself from those he may have been protecting.

Frank Burden

Reassuring comments on new FOI attributes. However, unless the TLFO is moved on,
the new FOI will, as a new boy, need to obey and conform to either the TLFO or to the new AM,
hopefullly the latter.

Otherwise the deck chairs have merely been re arranged on the Titanic to provide a better view of the tragedy.

[Cousin Cletus]

Aw shucks Mainblame...!!

No need to be all rude and the like.

Mr Creampuff said
Hatfields and McCoys and its no coincidence it occurs in the aviation equivalent of Delverance territory

and Mr Stinkfinger said
one of the bastardised, lets call him the banjo player

Sounds like my kind of thread. I dont think im goin anywhere!!
Dont worry abou the kid rock chucker. He jes wishes he wuz kin.

Hell, now we got comic book characters and conspiracy theories too from Mr Starlight. Damn, I,m getting me into my delivered Rangoon rockin chair, tippin me back some sour mash and enjoy the show....................:}

[Stink Finger]

Another interesting occurence was, a year or two ago a CP from a Qld based metro operator was interviewed for the position of FOI in FNQ.

Shortly after the interviews, a spiteful prick in CASA ( lets call him Pinochio ) photocopied this guys ( lets call him JL ) application and interview results and faxed it to a number of Western, southern QLD and NQ people, other companies, those whom he worked for and a number of random organisations, i saw a copy of it at a QLD aeroclub being bandied around like a new edition stick book.

Very inappropriate indeed, this was investigated by CASA, it is common knowledge who did it ( Pinochio ), but was unable to be proven.

I have spoken to the someone in CASA in the recent past who has been commisioned to remove these trouble makers, he is quite aware of the nature of the problem and as has been previously mentioned on this thread needs our support.

The POC is the AM at TL and is the best man to talk to, Mr Alan Cook. ACT NOW.

BB, please act soon, there is alot more of this stuff to come, and it needn't, it paints an image of CASA none of us want seen.

[Stink Finger]

JetA_OK,

the copy i saw had the TL offices fax details on the top of the page and the 07 4750 2699 number, which is infact TL offices fax number, what are the chances of that ?, Pinochio was the only one in the office that has any negative history with JL, do some research and you'll see.

It's all just too transparent in nature.

These types of actions are just a very small example of the craft and corruption used, there are very many more of these types of " totally bizarre and unexplainable happenings".

[Stink Finger]

JetA_OK, in all due respect, guess again.

[Stink Finger]

JetA_OK,

"if you have any further info on the topic then I suggest you take it to the investigator who cleared said individual. I can't see how pointing a finger on a public forum makes you any better than the people you are criticising".

Guess you need to ask yourself what is it we are trying to achieve by bringing this, and other, issues up, i am certain i am not supplying info that has not been provided " in house".

I am most certainly am better than these individual, all i am doing in giving those that are looking directions to head in, these individuals did these things, ( plus or minus chinese whispers ) they must be accountable for their actions, as those in the industry are.

Infact many of us here are being judicious enough to ensure we provide very little information, so as to give BB and AC a direction to head in, they will make their own minds up one of two ways, they will look at whats happened and sack to offenders outright or, as CP denies is possible, will see a trend within the TL office.

You might suggest it's a smear campaign, not the case, these things actually happened, eg:

Pinochio, sits in the middle of the bush ( 6 hours drive each way ) waiting for the CYAS mail run to arrive, ramps the pilot ( excellent, just what CASA should be doing ), after the event trumps up an RCA to the operator stating the pilot was not carrying his current medical certificate.

Mr Rum, removes a MR from a Mt Isa based operators aircraft at TL, which was on a charter MA-TL-MA, Mr Rum Removes the MR and heads back to fort fumbles, pilot come back from the terminal and blast off back to MA ( obviously without the MR as Mr Rum has it ), and the TLFO moves to issue the pilot with a RCA for breach of CAR 139.

TLFO, SOP is to issue staff he's not happy with "Personal Show Causes Notices" at 1630 on a friday afternoon when this person ( HC ) is walking out the door to head off the NZ for a two week skiing trip, how much fun do you think this guy had on holidays.

TLFO, has an FOI ( banjo player ) in TL who is well regarded and exceptionally experienced doing pretty much exclusively fire work permits for 9 months.

A bit of a slow day today, only 6 PM's from other ppruners with similar stories to cut and paste, still some pending, that will do for tonight.

[Paul Phelan]

I’m a relatively rare visitor to this site but I see that my name has come up lately in the forum and I’d like to make a few points clear.
While my industry contacts are reasonably confident that initiatives recently taken by the Director will be followed by others with the same potential to clean up the mess, I am in doubt that many in the industry or in CASA will ever understand the size and scope of the misconduct and incompetence that has damaged so many businesses, careers, and lives, and so degraded the regulator’s industry and international standing.
Notwithstanding any reversals achieved by the Director’s current and future initiatives, it needs to be understood that CASA sees itself exposed to untold litigation which would be triggered by any admission of responsibility for wrongdoing – and will therefore be averse to resurrecting old issues. This leads to a focus on the “bright new future” image at the expense of injured parties, and an unwillingness to revisit the past. Certainly the perception would be that any attempt to redress them would be an admission of wrongdoing, which could expose the regulator to major lawsuits. This will offer little comfort to (among others) the present or former owners of Aerotropics, Air Bush Charter, Air North, Aquaflight Airways, Arcas Airways, Cape York Air, Crane Air, GCA Australia Pty Ltd, Midstate Airlines, Ord Air Charter, Schutt Aviation, Skytech Aviation Services, Sydney Seaplanes, Uzu Air, Whyalla Airlines, and Yanda Airlines – along with numerous individuals apparently singled out for special treatment.
I assert that I am well aware that some operators and individuals may be less than fully compliant, may be bad businessmen, or suffer from other deficiencies. I am also aware that many of these have never received regulatory attention. (It is a measure of corporate attitude that when I made this statement to a former public affairs official I was told that it was my obligation as a member of the “aviation community” to disclose anything I knew!)
However, because of the awesome power bestowed on a CASA “delegate” and the negligible oversight of resulting activities when the wrong kind of individual is appointed, it has really only been necessary in the past for a “delegate” to form an opinion that an individual should be hounded out of the industry and it’s as good as done. The penalties that can be imposed on a certificate holder by (for example) a licence or certificate suspension will normally be incalculably more severe than a the outcome of a prosecution at law – and the perpetrators well know it.
For example, I recently did the industry a disservice by pointing out in an editorial that individuals within CASA can simply shut an operator down by unreasonably withholding or withdrawing a chief pilot approval. That has been increasingly the course which some such individuals have taken, because (unlike suspensions or cancellations of certificates) the “delegate” is fully empowered to withhold or withdraw an approval without reference to any other individual. It would be interesting to compare the acceptance of a highly experienced chief pilot nomination by a major airline – a single telephone call I have been told – with more recent events in which a delegate clearly stepped outside his own area of expertise to obstruct the acceptance of a chief pilot, thereby throwing an operator of a large number of aeroplanes and a major employer of pilots into chaos and causing the loss of major international contracts the operator has serviced for years.
I would also like to respond to comments by the regulator which accuse me of various violations of a journalist’s obligations, see http://casa.gov.au/media/2005/letter05-01-11a.htm and
http://casa.gov.au/media/2005/letter05-01-11.htm:
The content of the two letters to are similar and the following remarks apply in the main to both.
The material for the article was collected from a number of well-known industry identities with strong backgrounds in regulatory development, most of whom did not wish to be named because they hold various CASA approvals and certificates which are essential to their businesses. However because the material was filed in mid-October to a 10 week lead time, following a call from DOTRS I was concerned that something of a material nature might have changed in the interim. So I phoned the CASA media relations manager who made some inquiries, rang back, and confirmed:
• "Nobody in CASA has raised this issue yet, it was just raised by a person from the department";
• "There has been no change beyond the normal NPRM process, the only thing that has changed is that Bruce Byron announced in late November that a 'regulatory advisory panel' would provide an additional step in the consultation process and the maintenance NPRM will have to go before one of these panels. However that's not designed to delay things, it'll pretty much run in parallel with the other process anyway. Apart from that there has been no other change. The establishment of the panels isn't designed to put anything further back."
• "The panel however may of course come back and say it's all a load of [inaudible] and we want it changed."
• "From the point of view of DOTRS, we haven't announced that the maintenance suite NPRM process has been halted or suspended, or anything at all at this point, the NPRM stands, comment closed in December and the comments will be examined. So subject to input from the panel, nothing has changed at this point."
• [A CASA official] just told me it's continuing as per schedule, and Bill [McIntyre's] absence hasn't changed the schedule at this juncture.
• "On the basis of that I don't think that anything has changed, and [DOTRS] may have jumped the gun a bit. So if whatever you've written at this point is a statement of what's currently out there, it is still valid."
I don’t wish to thump my chest too much but the following are relevant
• My industry background comes from 45 years of (mostly commercial) flying, and senior flight operations and head office management roles with a major regional airline.
• I don’t write this kind of material from my imagination, but from observation, and from the thousands of contacts I have at all levels of all aviation-related industries, who trust me to reflect their situation and opinions. The fact that I have become to some extent focused on regulatory affairs is due to the vast volume of related documentation that reaches me because it is appreciated that people who understand the issues, believe I report accurately on these events.
• People who believe I am biased against CASA as an organisation, have probably spent too much time listening to one another over a cup of taxpayer-supplied coffee, and not enough time listening to the industry which is their raison d'etre. Even if a government organisation is doing the best job in the world, it has a problem if it is the perception of its client base that it is not performing according to its obligations. I'm actually pro-CASA, and have a lot of friends within the organisation. I acknowledge having a regulator is inevitable, just like death and taxes, but CASA will never be able to deliver on its obligations unless the many individuals within it who have created the mess it's in are identified and neutralised.
• Among other issues industry is urging the strongest possible continued pressure on the "maintenance suite" issue because people in CASA are (unbelievably) still saying all that's needed is a bit of "tweaking around the edges." This is called "denial," a phenomenon still quite evident around Northborne Avenue. I would like to make the point that most of the denials contained in the letters were unexplained and non-specific rejections without supporting argument.
• The material was written about three months earlier, and in the intervening period there wasn't any announcement that suggested anything had changed.
• Contrary to statements from DOTRS that "the regs have now been recalled," CASA has confirmed that the "maintenance suite" of draft regulations has not been withdrawn.
• In evaluating the maze of draft legislation, I rely not on my own very limited expertise in legal drafting and rule development; I draw on industry people, either with coalface experience or with strong backgrounds in regulatory development and intimate knowledge of the processes and mistakes since 1966. My commentary on the implications and consequences of badly drafted legislation, which moves Australia further away from international standardisation, intelligibility, interoperability, simplicity and effectiveness, is not something I have dreamed up; it is an accurate reflection of the mood of a very concerned industry.
• Since becoming aware of an apparent campaign to discredit my material, I have taken the trouble to explore with three individuals who know far more about it than I do, the labyrinth of draft legislation. They have satisfied me that the tenor of the quotes and comments in my articles is consistent with the situation that currently obtains, and with the mood of the industry with very few exceptions. One exception we have identified is understood to be an applicant for a position with CASA.

[Woomera]

Continuation of above Paul Phelan comment
Woomera had to split the post as the original was beyond the programme limits of 12,500 characters with spaces.

Below is a continuation of Paul Phelans post above;

PPRuNe comment

Where appropriate, I’m also responding below to some comment on this forum. The comment will be in italics, and my response is be in normal typeface. (Let’s see how that formatting translates from MS Word onto the site!)

A very considerable amount of damage has been done to a huge number of businesses and individuals, which clearly should be redressed, despite the comment:

There is at least one other explanation which makes perfect sense……..and that’s that the allegations are unsupported by the facts. We may just be seeing another lap of the tired old aviation merry go round, during which a new CEO and AM in CASA will have their intelligence and integrity insulted when they beg to differ from the same tired old accusers. We can certainly add Mr Skehill to the list of eminent and powerful people insulted this time ‘round. There’s no trend here. It’s the same people bearing the same grudges, year in, year out. They’ll go to the grave bearing those grudges.

This is called “denial,” a science almost perfected by CASA’s past public affairs structure and exemplified by the publication of two “letters to the editor” which made vague accusations that the articles were “full of errors” but did not deal specifically with any issue raised.

The “Eminence and power” of any professional person will always remain a subjective assessment by individuals.
As to internal investigations, it is clearly inappropriate for an agency whose employee has been accused of misconduct, to appoint its own “independent investigator.” This practice certainly raises conflict of interest questions, especially in the case of an external consultant engaged through the Authority’s Office of Legal Counsel.

CASA Public Affairs may be putting itself in the unenviable position of getting involved in a dialogue of a highly technical nature, but being briefed only by people who have clearly dug in to hold their positions under siege. I drew from material provided by people whose background in technical and regulatory issues I and the industry can only respect.

Anybody in CASA Public Affairs wishing to qualify themselves to comment on complex technical issues, should look for advice from people who are committed to Mr Byron\\\'s reforms - or look outside CASA – rather than asking for comment by the person/people who created the problem in the first place.
Denying that there is a problem, as CASA appears on many occasions to have done in public over many years, has been the prime obstacle to meaningful reform since the early nineties, and I\\\'m surprised that people in CASA and in government continue down that path. Any intelligent analysis of the fiasco surrounding the development of the “maintenance suite” of regulations would support that conclusion.

If I didn’t have anything important to do, I’d start with exposing the mates of Torres and Walking Eagle in CASA, who, rather than doing what the taxpayers are paying them to do, leak half truths and selective information, in breach of various criminal laws.

One is surprised that this commentator actually claims to have “something more important to do” and wonders what it may be, other than possibly the pursuit of gainful employment.

“Walking Eagle” was my PPRuNe tag about 10 years ago, before I realised the advantages of not concealing my identity. I have never said that anybody “leaked” information to me. I have however had my attention usefully directed at times to specific issues and available documentation (Hansard, newspaper articles, CASA website etc,) by individuals who were ashamed of the conduct of some of their colleagues’ - and still are.

As for the website, another dream, sorry

Watch this space.

Two wrongs don\\\'t make a right and neither is justice served by a self serving journalistic beating up without the other side being appropriately represented

I would be deeply interested to be able to understand the above tirade. Unless they’re unusually stupid, politicians don’t argue both sides of an issue in the Parliament. Lawyers similarly don’t argue both sides of a case. And journalists – at least in the editorial mode – try to avoid arguing with themselves, especially when so many other people are happy to do it for them!

As for the “self serving” epithet, do I perhaps have a Swiss bank account somewhere that I don’t know about? Can anybody tell me when I last earned a single dollar in the pursuit of “Safe Skies, Procedural Fairness, Due Process and Social Justice For All”?

The proposed industry website that will publish documented instances of misconduct should answer most of your concerns. As it will also publish details of the miscreants it will assist BB, CASA and the industry. It will therefore be of be of great benefit in achieving the reforms desired by the Minister, by Bruce Byron and the industry.

Thank you, but it may not be as easy as that for the reasons explained above.

I am therefore in the process of establishing a web site which will record recent and current CASA regulatory failures, misadventures and apparent misconduct. This may provide guidance as to possible directions of reform, especially regarding the activities of individuals who appear to have been prominent in the organisation\\\'s failure to meet its commitments and goals. It will publish only documented facts, including naming the writers of documents, and separately where appropriate, opinions which will be identified as such and not represented as facts. All published facts will be cross-referenced to supporting documents. CASA will be offered space in which to respond to each topic when it is published. I will not circulate the web address yet because it is still under construction; however about 2,500 addressees will be made aware of it by e-mail, and with the permission of the moderator, participants in this forum.
There are encouraging signs that a turnaround is in process. I intend however to proceed as if nothing was happening regardless of CASA actions or reactions, some of which may or may not be interpreted as responses to material I have published.

Anyone who has anything to contribute, and which is supported by available and verifiable documentation, is welcome to contact [email protected]. I cannot digest or re-publish insinuation, rumour, or anything that may be defamatory. I also don’t plan to enter into debate on the above in public, but will respond to any e-mail which is constructive. All sources are guaranteed protection of their identity.

Separately, CASA is invited to brief me on any or all of these issues on a formal and non-confidential basis, but with the reservation that without their consent, I may not be able to disclose the identities of individual complainants.
Quotable quotes:

The evil men do lives after them. The good is oft interred with their bones (Mark Antony, in Julius Caesar)

Signed – a “tired old accuser” – nursing new hope.

Edited by Woomera to correct formatting, the / goes before the format command in the closing bracket.
and I had to split the post because it was larger than the software programme permits. = 12,500 character with spaces.

[Frank Burden]

Looking forward to seeing the material on the website.

But surely in a land where natural justice is meant to prevail and hungry litigious commission based lawyers abound, people have recourse to the courts if they have a case. Or am I just plain stoopid?

You seem to have a lot of energy Paul. Why not use some of it by getting involved in the regulatory consultation process? This way you may achieve the same goals through a more constructive approach. Oh, but I forgot, journalists like things to fester and ferment otherwise there would be no reason for them to exist.

Not against you Paul but just some thoughts from the deep rooted cynic that I have unfortunately become watching the fragmented Australian aviation industry rip itself apart again and again and again.

[Nipper]

STINK FINGER

There is a slight factual error to this:

TLFO, SOP is to issue staff he's not happy with "Personal Show Causes Notices" at 1630 on a friday afternoon when this person ( HC ) is walking out the door to head off the NZ for a two week skiing trip, how much fun do you think this guy had on holidays.

The guy was actually taking time off to look after his three children, under five, and it was also his birthday and not handed to but place on the key board of his computer for him to find. The reply had to be in the day of his return to work.

The reply to his response was again delivered, on Xmas eve, stating the show cause would stand and disciplinary action of serious breach of conduct would proceed.

Skehill did find that this person should not have been given a show cause and all reference to it has been removed from CASA.
The T/L was not reprimanded.

[Torres]

Frank You really have little experience with CASA's conduct in the AAT, have you?

Perhaps you need to read Paul's article on UZU Air, posted elsewhere in this forum.

[Mainframe]

Nipper

your post lends weight to the older rumour that TLFO, NQAO,
is being protected by someone he may have compromised in HO.

Given that BB is now looking over his shoulder a bit more often,
that protector will soon expose himself by his actions, if he hasn't done so already.

Standby for a another round of musical chairs in Canberra. It's coming.

Frank Burden

Torres may be right, you may have little exposure to what the rogue element can and does achieve with impunity.
It may be just as hard for you to understand that there are some seriously nasty types hiding in CASA.
BB will find them as they progressively reveal themselves.


Stink Finger:

The Royal Commission, that can't be allowed to happen, would be the simplest way of exposing the rot,
and dealing with it. Then, and only then, can CASA start to get on with the reform that is so painfully overdue.

The misconduct website, however, will serve as an interim clearing house,
and put CASA on notice that it's time for improvement.
It will help CASA identify behavioural practices that our out of step, and their exponents.

The TLFO's practice of using 16:30 Fri in his bag of nasty tricks is well known,
as is his penchant for issuing instruments without the wording "whilst employed by"
and instead having an expiry date that he can use to "fail to renew" at or close to expiry.

Power, and it's use and abuse, is his stock in trade. That was clearly seen in the bastardisation of his staff,
leaving them in no doubt that he will demonstrate that power if they don't understand his lack of integrity and ethics.

Pinnochio understands how his beloved "My illustrious Leader" thinks and acts,
and has quickly adopted a similar style to not only please, but to ensure his own survival,
after all, this will be his last job in civil aviation in Australia and he knows it.

[Sunfish]

AP, I did believe you, just wanted to know more. Its an amazing story

[Captain Starlight]

Nipper

thank you for uncovering a little gem.
If factual, the revealtion that Skehill saw that HC was bastardised
and that the record was amended is quite disturbing.
This then led him to conclude that there was "no basis for the allegations"?

It was quite possible that other examples of the TLFO's perverted style of leadership were also evident.

A process has been followed by bastardised CASA employees, and by bastardised in the industry.

The results of that process is that nearly six months down the track, the TLFO is still TLFO.

BB,NH, AC, we're all aware, we're all watching and we're all waiting for action.

You know about the problems that don't exist and the conduct that didn't happen,
the investigation that didn't investigate,
and now we are expected to accept the action that wasn't taken.

There is either a denial process happening,
or hopefully not, a contempt being displayed toward the industry.

What has been allowed to happen has been disgraceful.

Please be seen to be doing something about it,
something decisive, and not more rhetoric.

[Mainframe]

Nipper and Capt Starlight

rumour has it that HC resigned in despair and disgust,
if true, then an enviable income foregone, and a career ruined.

Captain Starlight, you can go back to sleep. The tyrant reins, and will continue to do so.
Given the possible protection from above, what chance does the AM have to buck his superiors?

The banjo player appears to be the only one left with his integrity intact,
(Integrity is a bit like virginity, when surrendered, it can NEVER be regained)
perhaps he would be an ideal TLFO?

So where do we locate (relocate) Batman and Robin?

Is there another area office out there needing a team like this?

[Sunfish]

Ummmm, I thought I suggested something before. I will try again. I will bet that the imaginary behaviour that didn't exist will never happen again. If it did, then it might be punished by real and not imaginary action.

With the greatest of respect, I think that those of you who expect vengeance for imaginary wrongs are not going to be satisifed.

I am also reminded of the phrase "Give someone enough rope".. you finish the sentence.

Good luck CASA folk, I'm sure that you are getting it right:ok:

[Mainframe]

Sunfish

Your thoughts are noted, as is the possibility that everything is now ok.

Whilst vengeance may be a temporary pleasure, it is not the answer or the solution.

The TLFO has consistently demonstrated personality traits that are incompatible
with holding a responsible position in a government entity.

Do you think for one moment that telling him he has been misbehaving
and that he must now behave will work. No it won't unless he undergoes hypnotic or other therapies.

I doubt that even the "Men in Black" 's neuralizer would effect the personality change needed.

The misconduct has not ceased, there are FOI's still under fear of reprisal,
despite the fact that the new AM is a genuine bloke with an "open door" policy.

The cancer must be removed and the wound must be sterilized to fix this problem.

If anything, the TLFO will now become more cunning and devious, particularly since he's been,
as you possibly suggest, told to smarten up and behave.

[Stink Finger]

LK's protection in HO is soon retiring ( Bill ), so i am led to believe.

I would also suggest that a part of the TLFO job is to be able to effectively manage his staff, he wont bury the hatchett with the banjo player and has three COMCARE claims of harrassment causiing registered mental injuries to his own staff, perhaps this is what not being able to effectively manage your staff may look like, hmmm.

Sunfish, "enough rope", i understand the concept, in fact we are talking about people within the industries company, job, livelyhood, licence, ability to pay their mortgage, mental health, clothes for their children.

This little Social Science Experiment has to come to an end.

[Mainframe]

Stink Finger

How very well put:

This little Social Science Experiment has come to end.

This whole business could provide fruitful research data for a whole class of budding undergraduate psychology students.

Quite surprised at the rumoured protector, not the one usually suspected, the tall thin dark haired gentleman.

Does this mean there's two protectors ?

BB, keep looking over your shoulder ! There's more for you to find yet in your cleanup.

[Creampuff]

Mr Phelan

Until I read your post, I wasn’t aware that you had anything to do with the complaints the subject of this thread.

You assert that you are:well aware that some operators and individuals may be less than fully compliant, may be bad businessmen, or suffer from other deficiencies. I am also aware that many of these have never received regulatory attention.In other words, some operators are doomed to go broke, some operators deserve to have regulatory action taken against them, and some of the operators who deserve to have regulatory action taken against them, get off scott free.

Your point appears to be that the operators you have named fall into none of those categories. If that’s your point, please forgive me if I don’t hold my breath waiting for it to be proved. In some cases, there’s even publicly available evidence to the contrary. There have even been Senate committee inquiries.

You state that you have:never said that anybody “leaked” information to me.Who said that you said that?

If you think any of this is important, I suggest you get your head out of the typewriter and turn you mind to such things as the tsunami, Iraq, aids in Africa, the Sudan and your family and health.

[Captain Starlight]

Stink Finger

With regard to Pinnochio's taxpayer funded two day 4WD jaunt,
(for which he should reimburse the Commonwealth),
it is rumoured that the AWI accompanying him found a serious defect in CYA's C182.

The AWI found that the "rudder trim felt notchy throughout it's travel".
As the purpose of this defect report was to discredit the operator and alarm a lay judiciary,
pity it was abandoned instead of getting to court.

What the AWI did, without realising it, was to very accurately describe
the correct characteristic of a spring loaded trim system and it's necessary detent system.
An engineer or pilot experienced on type would know this, but not a member of the judiciary.

There are many tools in the box of dirty tricks. Some have been illustrated, Beware the Unwary!

The total misconduct exercised on this trip warrants investigation.
Did Pinnochio initiate the idea of targeted harrassment, or did his beloved "Illustrious Leader" ?

Little wonder that the exercise was exposed for what it was and withdrawn.

[Spinnerhead]

I hope you are tending "the tsunami, Iraq, aids in Africa, the Sudan and your family and health" forums, and not wasting too much of you time here!

Maybe every forum in the world should be turned into "the tsunami, Iraq, aids in Africa, the Sudan and your family and health" forum.

Maybe all conversation, other than "the tsunami, Iraq, aids in Africa, the Sudan and your family and health" should be banned.

But then again, maybe I am extrapolating your intent a bit too freely. Hope you are not guilty of the same thing!

[Stink Finger]

I see A****** back on the job, lets see if justice is served this time, please don't let us down.

We will sits on our haunches and wait, for now.

CASA and the industry need to trust each other to work together.

[Nipper]

The three FOI's concerned were/are members of AFAP and the TLFO is/was the CASA secretary representative in AFAP. The fox therefore was in charge of the chicken house.

The past AFAP president was/is aware of the proceedings in the NQAO, however they have also remained silent for the past three years.

The word being used for the treatment of the three FOI's is "bastardisation” unfortunately doesn’t have legal principle however the correct term “bullied” now carries legal precedence and possible jail term. This term should be used when describing the TLFO’s conduct.

[Stink Finger]

Nipper,

and there is the reason why a very large majority of pilots have absolutely nothing to do with AFAP, they lack credibility by both association to LK and their inaction in situations like yours.

Again we pilots vote with our feet, an organisation like AFAP should sell itself, some level of protection from bad employers and CASA, i've seen neither embodied in any of their actions.

So surely by their own actions AFAP has to already know this ?, not a real good marketing stategy.

I wonder if these three FOI's will renew their memberships next financial year, or introduce any new business ?.

[Mainframe]

Nipper and Stink Finger, again, quite correct regarding the AFAP.

The AFAP is acutely aware of whats happening, they have visited Townsville and Cairns and spoken to members on both sides of the fence.

Some of the FOI's feel that there is a bond between TLFO and TOC, LC is also watching from the sidelines.

The AFAP have member complaints from both the industry and from CASA members, regarding TLFO,
and are aware that a lot of members and potential members are also watching carefully from the sidelines.

As a direct result of the TLFO's bullying of CASA and industry members, the AFAP is now aware,
that like CASA, they also are in need of an enforceable code of conduct.

The treatment of several AFAP members by some members in the CASA faction is disgraceful.
The AFAP needs to attend to this aspect when this despicable business is resolved.

It can and will affect their membership drive, and given the defection already of some, there is a clear message.

And Sunfish, the wrongs weren't "IMAGINARY", suggest you talk to some of the affected, both CASA and Industry.

[gaunty]

Mainframe

I dont think that Sunfish imagines for one moment that the "wrongs" were "imaginary".

I suspect that he has a fine understanding of the way that the real world works in the realpolitik solution of these matters.

There will be no heads on pikes at the entrance to the castle, but there will be a quiet sorting out.

There will be no "retribution" but there will be a quiet sorting out.

There will be no "vengeance", for whatever that is worth, but there will be a quiet sorting out.

Quietly and properly, the villains in whatever form will be rooted out.,
There is due process and there is the requirement for proper form. If this is not followed then the pus and pain just gets worse.

I think it is time we trust those who have the responsibility, to act responsibly.

Mr Phelan takes me to task in regard to my "two wrongs don't make a right" comment, I would have a great deal more respect for his journalistic integrity if he were to have quoted me in context, (see my post) rather than cherry pick it for effect.
His comment in entriely in keeping with the tenor of the rest of his post

It would be difficult to argue against his sentiments in the opening paragraph of his post in regard to actions past.

They are, however in the past and I must fully concur with Mr. Sunfish's wise conclusions.
I will try again. I will bet that the imaginary behaviour that didn't exist will never happen again. If it did, then it might be punished by real and not imaginary action.

With the greatest of respect, I think that those of you who expect vengeance for imaginary wrongs are not going to be satisfied.


As a journalist he should understand better than most, that the posture of the language and rhetoric still being used by those who have lost control of "their agenda" because something is actually happening with which they agree and against which they can no longer rail and bluster, is too familiar and becoming rather threadbare and tired.

Neither is it particularly dignified nor even true for them to claim that “our salvation” and the "changes" taking place are a direct result of “their” actions. Somewhat demeaning and patronising of BB and BG I would have thought.

We must move on, we cannot change the past we can only ensure, as far as it is possible that it cannot and will not occur again.

Heads on pikes??? might satisfy the punters but without a fundamental change in attitude what would be achieved?

[Stink Finger]

Gaunty,

I believe pretty much all of us here know there is not going to be a public show made of this, for many reasons.

There is not really alot of retric about how much we personally dislike these individuals, the directions are being given to BB/AC for occurences that may be of interest in helping them quietly root out these problems, to the final " i'm retiring due to poor health" ,"i've been offered a fantastic job in Ghana" or " I'm getting that pair of breasts i've always wanted".

I would be very happy with the seamless transition to a bully free school yard.

There was an Australian, a Kiwi and a short man at work together, ....... someone stole the caterers silver platers, boom boom.

[Woomera]

Proposed CASA reorganisation (http://)

[Captain Starlight]

Just woke up and noticed this thread has dropped out of interest.

Just what the NQAO would like to see.

Does this signal that corrective action has been taken by the new AM?, or has he been defeated?

Stink Finger, Maximus B, Mainframe, anyone noticed any adjustments?

Has a new day dawned, free of ineptitude, malice, corruption, malfeasence?

Is Sunfish correct in that the problems that didn't exist have been fixed?

[Mainframe]

Starcaptain

Sorry, been to the movies!

Captain Starlight,

Nothing to report and expect there'll be nothing to report in the future.

The waiting game has been played, CASA has waited for this thread to die a natural death and it has.

The new AM, NQAO will by now have found out just who has been protecting the TLFO,
and has probably been advised that it may be career limiting to do what was expected of him.

Millions of dollars of malicious harm has been enacted on two and possibly more operators,
and the offenders have got off scot free, even with NH concerned more about the possible welfare of the offenders,
than the taxpaying entities who were genuinely harmed by their their corrupt and malicious behaviour.

The inaction of those empowered confirms that the misconduct is condoned as acceptable behaiour in a Western Democratic Society.

I sincerely hope that the new AM has not been compromised or penalised for any effort he may have made
toward setting the record straight.

AC is a decent person and it may have been quite a cultural shock to have been exposed
to the depravity of the enshrined culture within.

However, BB, NH, AC, please remember, that, as has been previously enunciated,
the truth is out there, and ultimately, the truth will prevail.

When that happens, take stock of the position you adopted, and the consequences of that decision.

[Stink Finger]

There have been a number of closed door meetings, there are many more to come.

HO is aware of the problem, in it purest forms, as Gaunty has stated " quiet sorting out", is most definately happening.

There is in place a focussed, non emotional, deliberate and timed approach being used, this is bound to yield the best result possible.

We will sit on our haunches and wait, for now.

[Captain Starlight]

SF

Thanks for the news, this is taking a long time to come to a result,
bit like the gestation period for an elephant.

Certainly hope the new AM emerges triumphant, and not the TLFO instead.

Exposing and dealing with his (TLFO) protectors up above should go a long way
toward ensuring an ethical future for CASA.

[Creampuff]

From pages 126 and 127 of the Proof Committee Hansard of the Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee's hearings of 14 Feb 05 (copy available at http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/commttee/S8083.pdf) :Senator MARK BISHOP—At page 82 of the CASA annual report, Mr Byron, under the heading ‘Investigation’, it states:

In April 2004 CASA commissioned Mr Stephen Skehill, Special Counsel with Mallesons Stephen Jacques, to investigate allegations made about CASA’s North Queensland Area Office.

What are the allegations exactly that have been made?

Mr Byron—The allegations are an internal matter, effectively, by CASA officers regarding CASA officers. They are fairly sensitive personal issues that I took seriously at the time and believed, in the appropriate way to manage the staffing issues within CASA, that I needed an independent investigation.

Senator MARK BISHOP—Do they go to issues of impropriety?

Mr Byron—I would need to check on that. Our considered view is that it went close to impropriety, without checking the detail.

Senator MARK BISHOP—It strikes me as being somewhat unusual that you regard the behaviour as so serious that you have got an independent investigation of CASA employees in relation to other CASA employees and you have commissioned senior counsel to do it.

Mr Byron—The issue was such—I would need to double-check the detail of the allegations—that at the time it was serious enough for me to make sure that there was a proper, thorough, independent investigation and it was seen to be done independently and thoroughly.

Senator MARK BISHOP—Does it go to improper personal behaviour or issues of misuse of resources or financing?

Mr Byron—To the best of my recollection it is related to behaviour.

Senator MARK BISHOP—Where is the investigation up to?

Mr Byron—I have received the report. I have considered it in conjunction with the chief operating officer and other senior managers and we have put in place an action plan that requires a number of people in the management organisation to do a certain number of things to sort the issues out that were raised.

Senator MARK BISHOP—It has been considered by the senior management team; the investigation has concluded; its recommendations have been considered; you have devised an action plan; and the action plan is in the process of being implemented.

Mr Byron—Yes.

Senator MARK BISHOP—Is there any potential liability to CASA or the Commonwealth as a result of the findings?

Mr Byron—We do not believe so.

Senator MARK BISHOP—What was the cost of that investigation?

Mr Byron—I am advised approximately $50,000.

Senator MARK BISHOP—I am in the wrong business! What was the process by which Mr Skehill and Mallesons were selected to carry out the investigation?

Mr Byron—Mallesons are part of CASA’s legal panel. We have an approved list and they were on the legal panel.

Senator MARK BISHOP—Mr Skehill is a former secretary of the Attorney-General’s Department. Has the investigation now concluded? Are Mr Skehill and Mallesons making other inquiries into CASA operations?

Mr Byron—No. As I mentioned, the inquiry is complete. I received the report some months ago and my orders are to get on and get the action items sorted out.

Senator MARK BISHOP—It is a one-off up in North Queensland?

Mr Byron—Yes.

Senator MARK BISHOP—Which is now concluded.

Mr Byron—Yes.

CHAIR—There are no implications under the Crimes Act?

Mr Byron—No.

Senator MARK BISHOP—Were any staff dismissed or disciplined?

Mr Byron—There was no-one dismissed. The summary is that there were a range of peripheral issues related to behaviour that need to be sorted out and that forms the core of the action items. That is pretty well the summary of it.

Senator MARK BISHOP—If I want more detail I will do it on a confidential basis.

[gaunty]

Quietly, properly, surely, building trust and respect. :ok:

And sending a very LOUD message to the few staff who have not yet got with the programme. :cool:

[Stink Finger]

[email protected]

[Mainframe]

SF

way to go!

check your pm's

And it's happening again

look here: Polar (www.polaraviation.com.au)

Check out the "NEWS" link.
20 plus years, clean slate, same treatment as delivered by NQAO!

The modus operandi is so similar that one wonders if someone is directing the game play.

Either that, or there is an unofficial manual of standards for dirty tricks.

BB, NH, another leak to plug in the sinking ship, are you aware of this one yet, it won't go away either.

Another job for the new AM to fix?

So much for the reform process.

The misconduct and impropiety is somehow orchestrated to the same score, and it continues unabated.

Please, can we have a Royal Commission and clean this disgusting mess up once and for all.

[gaunty]

Mainframe

It is my understanding that actions such as this, cannot be undertaken unless it is approved by HO.

They are very aware of the consequences and were a constructive party to the evolution of the new enforcement regulations.

It is also my understanding that said actions could not be generated by a single person without peer review within and therefore it would be safe to assume that
someone is directing the game play is a little ambitious
Either that, or there is an unofficial manual of standards for dirty tricks. are perilously close to slander

The misconduct and impropiety is somehow orchestrated to the same score, and it continues unabated. is flat out paranoid.

The regulatory system is empowered to regulate according to powers and the rules given to them in the interests of the travelling public.

The new enforcement regs recently passed as part of the Civil Aviation Amendment Act, make the process as fair as it is possible without removing the regulator from the system altogether.

They provide a clearer and fairer framework and structure than before, which is intended to provide protection and relief for an operator to continue operations in the event the operator believes he is being unfairly dealt with until such time as a determination is made by an appropriate external review body.

So what is the regulator to do if it finds in the execution of its duty to the public, that an operator has not in the regulators view fulfilled the regulatory obligations required for the holding of its AOC.

If you get copped for not wearing a seatbelt and the rules say you must, then you either were or were not wearing a seatbelt?

The same regulations that apply to every other AOC holder?

You suggest on another thread that there is a goose and gander scenario in play I assume the will be subject to the same regualtory scrutiny.

Either way the process which is available to all, is in train in the hands of the AAT, they are the only ones now in full possesion of the facts as seen by both sides.

The Administrative Appeals Tribunal (AAT) provides independent review of a wide range of administrative decisions made by the Australian government and some non-government bodies.

They will either agree with CASA and there will be predictable outrage from the usual suspects about draconian regs blah blah designed to drive GA operators out of business.

Or they will agree with the operator and there will be predictable outrage from the usual suspects about misuse of draconian regs blah blah designed to drive GA operators out of business.

Or a maybe in between and there will be predictable outrage from the usual suspects about misuse of draconian regs blah blah designed to drive GA operators out of business.

Lets see what the AAT have to say.

In the meantime AOC holders including the subject operator just getting on with it.

In the meantime CASA who are required by law to regulate the business in the public interest in accordance with the powers and responsibilities given to them by Parliament will be just getting on with it.

So the problem is???

The 2 Bs with the best will in the world are not going to turn the whole thing around overnight, and even were they able to, the regulatory system is empowered to regulate according to powers and the rules given to them in the interests of the travelling public.

It's their job.

Lets move on shall we.

[Mainframe]

Gaunty

Thank you for your thoughts.

Many in the industry wish it were how you describe.

Many in the industry, however, are confronted with behaviour that doesn't reflect the desired model.

There is no paranoia, no slander, just carefully documented hard evidence that will be tabled at the Royal Commission.

The AAT does not prosecute, nor recommend prosecution, nor award costs.
The AAT either upholds an appeal, or dismisses it, based on the facts presented
(CASA embrace the term "Facts and Circumstances" to really mean "Allegations and Suppositions")

The term "Despicable Behaviour" however is on record with the AAT, and it did not reflect on the character of the appellant.

Yes, this business is being quietly sorted out, within the constraints of vicarious culpability.
However, no signal is being sent out as to the consequences of not behaving.

The wound has been bandaged, but may continue to fester.
Surgery and post operative care is the answer to curing the wound and to prevent contagion.

I have been reasonably comfortable with the regulator over the years.
What has happened in recent years, from first hand experience and observing at close range others affected,
is cause for concern.

Those observations included within the regulator and within the industry.

The results of those observations are now recorded fact.

I do believe that the regulator is attempting to put it's house in order,
although some sweeping under the carpet is necessary given the urgency.

Then we may have the ideal world as you see it, rather than the real world as others experience it.

To those who have been following this thread with genuine interest,
I will not be posting further on matters CASA, but instead will wait a month or two for evidence of corrective action.

The work has started, and I would like to see it completed first.

arrived at destination, cancel SAR

[Captain Starlight]

Mainframe

All hell hath no fury as a bureacrat scorned ?

bye !

[gaunty]

Mainframe
I suspect that we are probably in heated agreement on some points, but how do you fix the past?

In my direct experience as an operator across all DCA/CAA/CASA regimes and attendant personalities since 1967, I have rarely had a reason to complain about the "service". But I will admit to have never worked in TVL.

Doesn't mean that sometimes I wouldn't "double take" on a requirement or even rupture a ligament on an eyeball whilst rolling it :rolleyes: :} :ouch: but I didn't take it personally.
If it was black letter law, it was black letter law, if it couldn't be shown to be so, then we'd have a chat about it and sort it out to a mutually satisfactory conclusion, and if it was necessary, direct to the Minister.
My colleagues and I are in the habit of seeing the "rules" as the base standard rather than something to strive towards.
We would rather be standards setters than followers.
I and they have held audits from all of the serious flight departments in the world.

Cant afford it if you want to be competitive? Really! Think about it :)

Many in the industry wish it were how you describe. the rest don't seem to be having too many problems.

Many in the industry, however, are confronted with behaviour that doesn't reflect the desired model. In the past I saw plenty of hard evidence that often those "many" were deserving of everything they got and more. I didn't necessarily agree with the method but if the then enforcement rules were worse than useless, then nobody was surprised if out of sheer frustration "other" methods were tried. I agree it shouldn't have to be like that.

"Pencil whipped" 3 hour Major inspections on an aircraft that required $20,000 remedial work just to get sufficiently airworthy to ferry to a heavy maintenance base, a whole fleet of Barons whose 6-10,000 TT hour engines (nobody could work out exactly how many hours and it was probably more) hadn't seen anything newer than the oil changes ? or the cylinders all with carefully documented and signed off log books. Totally running out of fuel and landing on the road with a pilot with 36 continuous duty and 20 odd flight hours having lodged flight plans for the period in different pilot names, blah blah blah. Finding pilots pay checks with three presentations bounced being used as notepaper/flight plan notes in the cockpit.
Guess who closed em down ? the regulator? nah the finance company.
Guess who were the main anti regulator protagonists.

Then we may have the ideal world as you see it, rather than the real world as others experience it. I'll ignore the patronising bit, and, TVL aside, the "others experience" may just be a problem with the mirrors in the rest room.

Having said that I believe that was then this is now, they will get there.

[gaunty]

Oh and a little something I posted in another thread;

On a lighter note:

One of my favourite programmes on TV right now is "No going back" a terrific docco style show that follows the fortunes of couples who sell up their busy city life and buy say a formerly grand 15th Century European Chateaux to turn into a modern guest house.

Invariably the house had "good bones"

The job is always harder than they could possibly have imagined.

The deeper they look the more evidence they find of botched repairs and el cheapo add ons.

More often than not thay have to tear out the previous renos altogether.

It always takes longer and costs more than they had budgeted, however carefully.

The local bureacracy drives em nuts until they work out it actually works however odd the ways may seem to be and how they can make it work for them.

The locals always have the real answers that often go against theirs and external experts opinion all they have to do is ask.

There is always a point at which they nearly give up to the "I told you so's".

They almost invariably get there, after a lot of very hard, hard work, a heap of encouragement, courage and persisitence, some timetable and planning adjustments and usually a bit more cash.

Sound familiar.

I'll betcha B1 and B2 watch the same show if only for inspiration from the people in it. :ok: :cool:

There is no going back.

[Stink Finger]

For info:

Quarter Final Scores
To date, Three heads from above in the basket ( and deservedly so ).

Who will survive next tribal council ?,
Ronald Mc Kippen or the Cookie Monster ?.

The clown is goin down, Blue is back baby !!!!.

[Henry The Octopus]

Stink Finger,

Please stop talking in riddles and make your point using words that those of us not involved in your gripe can understand.

Thankyou.

Henry

[Captain Starlight]

Henry

Sorry, the riddles and cryptic comment are to ensure that direct exposure of the offenders is restrained.

Stink Finger does not have a "gripe", just a normal desire for ethical behaviour by the public service salaried regulator.

This thread grew out of other threads and has kept the spotlight on some questionable behaviour by factions within the regulator.

Some area offices of the regulator have a rogue element that Bruce Byron intends to bring under control.

The rogue element of some offices are accustomed to the abuse of power,
including the bullying and harassment of it's own staff and the bullying and harassment of selected operators.

There are numerous examples of malfeascence (wilful and or neglectful misconduct) and of unethical conduct.

There is further evidence of malicious conduct, of vindictive conduct, of dishonest conduct
and conduct that a Royal Commission may establish to be both corrupt conduct and criminal conduct.

It is commendable that BB has directed that these embarrassing problems be rectified, and action has been initiated.

As has been stated by SF, three heads from above have rolled, although there are more to be found there,
and there are some heads to roll at the area office level.

It is BB's intent that the regulator is seen to be ethical, and employs people of unquestionable integrity.

It has also been stated that there are rogue operators as well as rogues within the regulator.

On both sides of the fence, these problems will be sorted out.

As well as a Regulatory reform program, there is in fact a CASA reform program happening.

The astute will move with the program, the recalcitrant and the incorrigable will be exposed and excised.

Area managers have been empowered and will be accountable for the success of the purging.

Again, SF's use of the cryptic is necessary,
and those most directly affected within and without the regulator have no problems decoding the obvious.

We have seen Batman and Robin, Pinochio, The Banjo Player, Cookie Monster,
The Favoured Rum, Napolean and many others mentioned, maybe the Royal Commission will put actual names to the ethically challenged rogue element.

Henry, what has been exposed here may help prevent you from being a future victim of a rogue's whim in the future.

[Stink Finger]

Does anyone know what BW is doing these days, he was a fair and just TLFO ?.

[Captain Starlight]

Stink Finger

Agree with you on BW, a man with his integrity intact and an ethical professional.

Don't know where he is at present or whether he is still on the team.

JR was another past tlfo and respected individual.

AC will be well advised to study the record of previous AM's who may have been shafted by the present TLFO.

Those who fail to learn from the past are bound to repeat it.

If he doesn't, he will be just another victim.

By the way, notice closed doors and closed offices, any known results of these sessions?

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Ran into BW at Fleet Helicopters in ARM last year, he was ATO'ing, i believe he's no longer a part of CASA.

[Mainframe]

Stinkfinger and Starlight

Any news on the stalled reform process?

What's happening?

What's the latest score?

[Captain Starlight]

Mainframe

Don't know about stinkie, haven't heard a thing.

Perhaps a little history may relieve the boredom.

In 1910, the evil Dr Crippen escaped with his partner on the liner "Montrose" to far shores.

The Captain of the ship became suspicious.

Alas, thanks to the efforts of Guglielmo Marconi, and some brilliant investigators, they were arrested and taken into custody on arrival.

In 2005, the evil Dr Crippen, still accompanied by his partner, is avoided by brilliant investigators,

and this time Guglielmo Marconi may be facilitating his escape.

This time the captain doesn't even know that Dr Crippen and partner are on the ship!

We live in interesting times, however, those who forget the lessons of the past are bound to repeat them.

So Stinkie, how about an update on the score?

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Furthermore, what of the trip to Cairns for BB/AC/NH that was supposed to happen ?.

[Mainframe]

LHRT

The trip will need to be postponed until a result has been actioned.

So far nothing has changed, no action taken against the offenders, so a trip at present would be embarrassing to all.

[Stink Finger]

Woomera, foxes and hares, thanks.

It is fairly quiet on the western front, there is a great deal of overseeing occuring.

To AM, you may have very few direct CAA/CAR privledges to neuter the resistance, Industrial Relations and Anti-Discrimination Legislation still apply in your work place and you are higher in the organisational structure, "you hold all the aces".

I'd like to take this opportunity to congratulate the lastest "apparent" RPT operator to FNQ:

Mr Rum Airways has been conducting revenue raising flights ( whilst employed by CASA, conducting charter flights that actually meet the requirments for RPT without an AOC, i am shocked).

Available to the general public, at fixed times, to and from fixed terminals for the past year or so, most recently using the IP aircraft, dep TL friday arvo for IFL, return Sunday.

"Rules are written for the obiedance of fools and the guidance of wise men, except if you are a corrupt little snake that works for CASA", good job !!.

[Mainframe]

Starlight

Thanks for the history lesson, looked up Dr Crippen on the web, your facts regarding 1910 are correct.

Interesting stuff, especially the first use of radio to nail a crim.

Could not find recent mention of Dr Crippen, or Marconi, so not sure where you're leading us.

Stinkfinger, heard a rumour that the remaining two bastardised FOI's have finally left town.

Any truth in that?

What a terrible price those three paid to gratify someone's insatiable lust for power and control.

Careers ruined, lives ruined, family upheaval and the expense of having to relocate themselves and family.

Little wonder the remaining FOI's are scared S#$*less and do the evil that they are bid to do.

Shame, shame.

[Bizpax]

I'm going to stop dipping into this thread hoping it will one day make some sense!Can't make head nor tail of it.

Meanwhile, whatever is happening in Townsville, CASA employees in Canberra are walking around wondering if the latest restructure marks the end of a regulator entirely. They sure don't make good fellow passengers out of Canberra these days!

Does anyone know what is going on? Is there a grand plan or is Mr Byron intent on destroying CASA?

[Air Ace]

Well, Bizpax, perhaps we wait to see whether it is the destruction of a regulator, or necessary reform which is way overdue.

Something seems to be happening in CASA Townsville office with rumour of a new Team Leader?

[Stink Finger]

Air Ace, have heard same.

[Mainframe]

Bizpax

As has been explained or observed before, there seems to be serious problems within CASA
and they appear to be more manifest in the North Queensland Area Office.

The Director has to contend with numerous problems and has attempted reform.
He has, however, encountered the informal power subcultures that exist,
and their propensity to collectively unite, resist and ignore him.

He has identified some, but not all subcultures, and taken the necessary hard line
to exterminate the leaders of the counter culture when they became identifiable.

The three Head Office sackings are testimony to that decisive action.

Yes, CASA may need to destroy itself in order to rebuild into a trustworthy, professional and ethical regulator.
This appears to be what the Keewee's have accomp[lished.

NZ deteriorated to a similar stage to where we have managed, then rebuit from the ground up.
The result is a robust and growing Aviation Industry that mocks the decline of Australian Aviation.

So if we need to go through the pain of such a rebirth, such a high velocity culture change, then so be it.

Informal power structures exist within CASA and effectively inhibit the reformation of the proper formal power structure.

Byron, if he wasn't aware before, is certainly aware now.

He will, with help, identify and neutralise those informal bastions of resistance.

The OLC, for instance, may indeed have such a subculture thriving within,
growing comfortable with doing things their way, rather than considering how they need to be done.

The use of the cryptic and the metaphor are often necessary tools to point the Director into areas that may need scrutiny.

Evil does lurk within the corridors of power and always will.
Curtailing it or controlling it will assist the reform process.

If you, as you have previously claimed, are on the outside looking in, i.e. not in the industry or the regulator,
you will ultimately benefit, as a bizpax, from the rebirth of CASA into an ethical and accountable organisation.

Be assured that the truth will ultimately and always prevail.

Byron will reform CASA, or will be seen as yet another highly paid failure, a long list indeed.

If something is happening in Townsville, that can only be good news,
unless Pinnochio has been elevated to TLFO, that would be a tragedy and perpetuate the problems of old.

One can only hope that the long time protector of the miscreants has finally been identified and disciplined.

And finally, let's hope the AM NQAO survived the tribal council.

He is needed elsewhere in CASA if he managed to effect genuine reform in Townsville.
He has a lot more similar work lined up for him.

explanation proffered and ended.

[Captain Starlight]

hear, hear, Mainframe.

Thought you were going to have a nap until something definite has happened?

Anyway, heard a rumour the TLFO is probably on his way to Canberra in a new position,

If there's any truth in this, and it's a promotion, it is a black day for reform.

Let's wait and see what's really happening.

Until then, you can go back to sleep as promised.

[27/09]

NZ deteriorated to a similar stage to where we have managed, then rebuilt from the ground up.

True, we did have our problems, though not to the same extent you guys seem to have.

To say it was rebuilt from the ground up is overstating things a bit.

Unfortunately there are still a few "problem" people left, but things are certainly much better now than they were a few years ago.

[Paul Phelan]

Dear Nicola,

I notice your comment on regulatory affairs via this forum as a CASA representative. Your office's goal appears to remain one of convincing the Minister, the industry, the Parliament and the (non-technical) media that nothing’s wrong at CASA, therefore nothing needs to be changed – in the apparent tradition of CASA Public Affairs. Mine (as well as others’) is to demonstrate to them that the this is not the case. My comments on some of your assertions:

“I would like to note a key word here - allegations.”

Trivialising the issues which various people have validly raised by emphasising the word “allegations” reminds many industry identities of an occasion in which CASA actually published ten totally unsubstantiated allegations against an operator on its web site, which was the first shot in an eventually successful campaign to demolish a well-conducted and reputable business. At the same time CASA admitted that they were no more than “allegations” by explaining that the suspension of the operator’s AOC (ultimately for three successive periods) was for the purpose of investigating them (i.e. they remained “allegations” because they had not even been investigated.) The final outcome of this issue in the courts, is a matter of history which reflects no credit at all on CASA. If you check with the OLC you will doubtless be provided with a countervailing interpretation of the realities springing from the court hearing. Perhaps you could also ask Mr Anastasi and his colleagues what consideration a certificate holder’s response to a “show cause” letter would received, if it pointed out that the assertions made were “only allegations” as so many such assertions are.

“The significant conclusion of the Skehill report was that the evidence did not support the allegations that had been raised.”

You and I must have read two different versions of the same report. Your comment is dismissive and not in accord with any intelligent interpretation of the text of the report, which was prepared by a lawyer frequently engaged by CASA to conduct such inquiries and which (according to Mr Byron’s advice to a Senate inquiry) cost “approximately $50,000. Many individuals in the industry, including myself, accurately forecast the outcome of the inquiry.

“I am concerned however that a number of the matters posted about CASA's actions date from some significant time in the past.”

The relevance of that statement is difficult to understand. Everything that has happened since the beginning of the world is now “in the past,” regardless of whether it happened ten seconds, ten hours, ten months or ten years ago. There is no statute of limitations in the industry’s corporate mind; an injustice remains an injustice until it is reversed. The issue is whether the people who committed the unjust act, or who irresponsibly allowed it to be committed, are still in a position to do so again. In many cases they are, and it is my intention to expose their acts and identities in well-documented detail.

People and organisations whose lives and businesses have been or are being destroyed by various well-recognised practices amounting to apparent misconduct, will not be adequately consoled by your statement that the relevant events occurred “in the past.” This will especially be the case when they are made aware that the people – and the CASA “culture” – which facilitated them are still in place; that apparently nothing has been done to prevent these individuals from committing future similar misconduct; that nobody within CASA has been disciplined; and that as CASA’s representative you feel compelled to deny – or decline to admit - that any misconduct at all has occurred.

Of particular concern has been the practice of advising the commercial clients of AOC holders that various allegations against them were being “investigated,” which has caused the cancellation of contracts, whether the allegations were proven or not. In at least two cases, the allegations proved to be false, and arose only because of incompetence amounting to negligence on the part of CASA and/or its employees.

Take a hypothetical example:

* If an operator alleged to CASA that one of his commercial competitors was overloading his Cessna 402C by 360 lb (163.296 kg) on a series of contract charters; and

* if a CASA investigator without a technical aviation background executed a search warrant and confiscated documents which proved the aeroplane had been operated on a series of charters at a weight 360 lb above its published MTOW; and

* if the operator’s customer, having been improperly made aware that the overloading allegations were being investigated, became alarmed at the alleged overloading and terminated a $26,000 per annum contract; and

* if the investigator subsequently contacted the operator accusing him of overloading the aircraft on the basis of information obtained under warrant which he had incompetently assessed; and

* if the operator’s Cessna 402C turned out to have a vortex generator kit fitted under a supplemental type certificate, which increased the aircraft’s maximum takeoff weight by 360 lb......
……. might such a chain of events not constitute misconduct which (having caused the operator serious financial loss) would support legal action for damages against both the staff member and his employer?

To quote a legal opinion already in CASA’s hands on a similar issue:

“This [proposal] would give rise to considerable exposure to defamation actions, and to possible liability, particularly if the defence of qualified privilege is not available. CASA would be covered by the Indemnity in relation to defamation actions as with various other actions which may be brought (eg negligence, including negligent misstatement, breach of confidence, injurious falsehood, misfeasance in public office etc). However, the Indemnity will not apply in favour of a CASA officer, where the officer is guilty of serious or wilful misconduct.”

It would seem that parties to the investigation would be out on their own in such a hypothetical circumstance, which might be a deterrent for any individual tempted to cut corners in their inordinate haste to put someone out of business.

The same could also hypothetically apply to negligent misstatements in support of the withdrawal of a chief pilot or training & checking approval.

In some instances, not only negligence and liability for it, but also the question of criminality, should be investigated. One would suggest that the appropriate investigation agency in such a situation would not be a lawyer under contract to CASA, but the Australian Federal Police.

The role of CASA Public Affairs – past and present - must also be examined in such issues. You will probably note that in this forum, people are far more aviation-aware than the Minister, DOTRS, the non-technical media, and the general public. I wish you well in your endeavour to convince them there's nothing wrong.

regards,

Paul Phelan

[Stink Finger]

Media Release from Mr Rum Airways: I hate Stink Finger.

not much different to the Nixon PR approach, Deny Deny Deny didn't quite work did it ?.

Nicola, BB, as PP has pointed out, by trying to wash what has happened in the, for us, not too distant past, under the carpet is not a path we will accept.

As is happening to some extent, things need to change and past wrongs need to be righted.

If a Comm Fleet staff member is caught stealing fuel, they are terminated immediately, this is not different from a CASA FOI financially benefiting from his yearly flying budget, isn't each of these flights approved by the TLFO, hmmmm.

Let me assure you a number of us are in contact with federal government members and passing our concerns on, this is being watched, your next Proof Committee Hansard of the Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee's hearing may be an ambush if these problems are not delt with by then, i'm sure you've thought of this.

I am very positive about the new ideas and new faces, but there are still these " sub cultures " that will eventually revert to their prefered under handed existence, get rid of the dead wood.

The issue identified here re: FOI HC clearly indicates either you've misread/ represented the Skehill report or Mr Skehill changed his mind after his visit to TL, a rather large inconsistency i feel.

[natbanger]

Are we missing something here? How can this report be completed when he did not even speak to the operators? How does he get a balanced account of CASA's actions when he only speaks to CASA?
Hardly worth responding to Nicola's letter as it is the same old propagander machine churning out the BS.

My two cents worth!:yuk:

Well said Paul.
As always you\'ve hit the nail on the head.

[gaunty]

Missed this but does anyone have any feedback on it??

CASA Media Release - Monday, 18 April 2005
Better air safety for FNQ
Improving air safety in Far North Queensland is the aim of a series of special seminars being held in Cairns this week.

Pilots, engineers and airline managers will come together to polish their aviation safety skills.

The Civil Aviation Safety Authority is hosting the three-day air safety summit, which will attract aviation people from throughout Far North Queensland.

Key safety issues will be in the spotlight - including fatigue, pilot training, local weather, aircraft icing, aircraft maintenance, operations in controlled airspace and airspace changes.

The seminars are an important initiative to maintain and improve the region’s air safety record.

CASA spokesman Peter Gibson says Queensland has 32 per cent of Australia’s fatal general aviation accidents.

“Over a decade Queensland recorded 63 fatal light aircraft crashes,” Mr Gibson says.

“A number of these accidents happened in Far North Queensland, making these safety seminars very important.

“Pilots, engineers and airline managers must continue to learn and improve their skills, as the key to better air safety is better performance by people.

“This week’s seminars are an essential part of the ongoing national efforts by both CASA and the aviation industry to lift air safety to even higher standards.”

Seminars are targeted at private and commercial pilots, flying instructors and aircraft engineers.

A total of 10 seminars will be held over the three days, starting on Monday 18 April.

The venue for all the seminars is: Cairns Aviation Skills Centre, 1 Tom MacDonald Drive, Cairns Airport.

[Mainframe]

Gaunty

Nothing special about the forums, they were scheduled.
The TLFO was part of the team, should he have anything to contribute in the interests of Safety?

He is essentially an enforcer and prosecutor, NOT a safety educator.
(The accident statistics for his region are a damning credential as to his contribution to safety)

Natbanger

The investigation into the conduct of the TLFO by SMJ, CASA's legal consulting firm,
was a blatant misuse of $50,000 of taxpayer's money.

The Senate estimates committee needs to be ever vigilant as to the possibility of funding misconduct.

Any investigation into the conduct of this person should not have focussed on a specific incident in isolation,
but rather, taken into account the broad and documented history of the person's total history of misconduct.

That broad investigation would have included all affected pilots, all affected operators, all AAT transcripts and all affected CASA staff.

Then, and only then, may the true character of what may be a psychopathic misfit be properly revealed.

A Royal Commission could profitably start and gain considerable momentum merely in the NQAO.
The modus operandi would be then found in other offices, but not always embraced with the relentless zeal of the NQAO.

Stinkfinger

Nice to see you back, thought ASIO must have finally eliminated you, the quest for your identity is quite real.

As has been previously observed in these forums, the informal subcultures will defeat Byron as surely as they did Smith and Toller.

Byron is not so naive as to deny their existence and he has acted appropriately when confronted,
but he has not and cannot eliminate them.

The entrenched networking and determination of the recalcitrants will defeat any director of CASA.

There cannot and will not be any reform of CASA unless the organisation is totally destroyed and carefully reassembled.

There was no problem with the Skehill report.

For $50,000 the required result was obtained, (Hansard)
his terms of reference deliberately limited to view a matter in isolation,
rather than to assess the sordid history of misconduct in it's entireity.

Somehow this borders on corruption.
As you stated, a Federal Police investigation may have been more appropriate for a lot of matters
concerning the behaviour and conduct of certain members of the NQAO and the OLC.

AAT transcripts would provide an excellent insight into the ruthless and lawless deception and dishonesty perpetrated.

Paul

Maintain the rage and indignation.

Public exposure of the "facts and circumstances", to use CASA's own terminology,
is the only way to bring honesty and accountability to a Public Service entity
that might be displaying open signs of corruption and incompetence.

27/09

You might still have a few problem people left, but the NZers managed to achieve a cultural change
that arrested the decline and refocussed your Dept in the right direction.

Bruce Byron would do well to give your country a visit and learn what steps were taken to clean up a degenerating regulator.

Even if you are not convinced as to degree of change implemented,
you would have agree that it is much better than it was prior to change and you would not wish to revert.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

"Eliminated" ?, seems a little paranoid.

I would imagine CASA does not have these sort of resources at hand, why could CASA care what is being bought up ?, if there is truth in whats being said here wouldn't BB be relieved to have the problems dealt with ASAP, on his terms ?.

Perhaps the individuals discussed above would care, that hardly quantitifies an investigation.

I guess BB might like to know if Stinky is one of his own.

CASA does not appear to be the direct issue, but the individuals, who happen to presently work for CASA, in my eyes these are hugely different topics.

[Mainframe]

LHRT

Sorry mate, you would be quite surprised at the enterprise CASA can muster in pursuit of it's agendas.

paranoid may refer to delusion, you are reminded that CASA successfully intercepted emails in the Midstate witch hunt.

And lastly, unless you have a high degree of internet protection,
you may be surprised at the incidence of visible attempted penetrations,
Norton Internet Security will , via "visual tracking", identify the source of attempted port penetration.

You may be surprised at the Federal Government offices in Canberra and Melbourne that launch
attacks on your computer, if you do not have top level software such as Norton internet Security,
you may not realise how often your pc is challenged.

You may already be challenged and compromised.

Paranoid? No!
Due Diligence? Yes.

[Cousin Cletus]

Hee Haw!

I agree with the Rock chucker.

You bin watchin too much X Files Mainblame!!:}

[Stink Finger]

Hee Haw :O

I have spoken to the relevant CASA managers and Federal Members, they don't care who any of us are, Is there truth in what is being said here, they are very interested in.

So, investigation, in this particular case is the 4 we've mentioned rattling cages ( the investigator of the Pinnochio / JL interview incidents has recently been very interested for obvious reasons ).

Midstate, intercepted emails my big toe, this information came from disgruntled staff.

What is worth investigation is the rumour that Cousin Cleatus was the shooter on the grassy knowle, yes I firmly believe there was a second shooter.

Stinky has not worked for CASA for many many years ( even that's debatable in itself ), so yes all the information being presented is common knowledge amongst certain circles.

[Torres]

natbanger. You missed the point entirely old son!!

No one said anything about a complete, balanced report. He who pays $50,000 for a "Report" usually has a vested (or invested) interest in the outcome.

I would think at that price, CASA got exactly the report it wanted - and expected.

[Captain Starlight]

Cousin Clit,
to quote a previous post:

Can you play a banjo?

or marinate a mackeral?

Stinky
several shooters were sited or sighted in the vicinity of the knoll.

Thanks for explaining how CASA intercepted private emails,
par for the course in the disregard for the law in securing a conviction.
My information was that a certain TL based former spook has impressive internet skills
aquired in a his former career and has openly boasted about his capabilities.
Cousin Clit, not the X Files, the ex spook is well known but pleased to know he was not the intermediary.

Pinnochio's time will come, this compulsive prevaricator was taped and witnessed
practising his specialty on at least three occasions.

Torres, the amount of public money squandered in sponsoring the gentlemanly sport of bastardry
would make interesting reading when the Royal Commission gathers all the "Facts and Circumstances"
and even the reputable "Allegations".

The magnitude of the misconduct is only surpassed by the magnitude of the effort and expense marshalled
to suppress the truth and protect the perpetrators.

Mainblame
I am of the firm belief that the truth will, as has been stated many times, always ultimately prevail.
And I also subscribe to the swinging pendulum theory.

The trail left by the miscreants is so obvious that even an "independant internal investigation" (oxymoron?)
could not help but stumble over it.

The collective will of the CASA subcultures to hide,suppress, condone is not to be underestimated.
The informal power subcultures will continue to mock and frustrate any genuine attempt at CASA reform.

The conduct emanating from the NQAO and other regional offices is silent testimony to their capability to defy,
and a sad reflection on BB's or any other future director's ability to steer CASA back on course.

[Mainframe]

Capt Starlight

What can I say?

Once sufficient "facts and circumstances" can be collated,
maybe it's time for an external investigation, preferably by the AFP.

And I might win Lotto also.

One needs to be a criminal to catch a criminal.
unfortunately most of us are decent, honest and law abiding citizens.

Anyway, the thought of CASA fixing the problem is nothing but the makings of a pleasant dream, so it's back to sleep for me.

Wake me when justice has been seen to be done, and lets not waste any more of my taxes on specially tailored investigative reports.

bye.

[gaunty]

Mainframe Paranoid? No! Not at all!
I have direct evidence of seriously innapropriate activity supported by witnesses in another matter, not CASA, but by an individual from another agency that is supposed to be protecting our telecoms.

Captain Starlight former spook has impressive internet skills see above, it doesn't sound like the same one especially if as you allege he was working for CASA, but, I have other evidence of what most would assume was highly innapropriate activity by a said former spook and current Federal employee using such skills.

One can only wonder at the quality of said spooks if they volunteer their past in any way :sad: and if in fact they really were :rolleyes:. I thought they were supposed to kill you. :O Walter Mitty is still alive you know.
If they were in fact, then it is doubly scary.:{

[Captain Starlight]

Gaunty

Thank you for being one of the illuminati.

A previous post speculated on the enterprise CASA could muster.
Whether it comes to dirty tricks,
or protecting it's own, it is still quite impressive, as BB has discovered.

However, I did not allege the said spook worked for CASA, nor did the said spook discuss his past.

When certain people visit certain restricted sites in Australia on a regular basis, it may be assumed
that possibly, they may be amongst the inner circle.

Given that the potential spook resides in that den of infamy, YBTL,
a little licence is permissable
when one learns that a certain CASA miscreant from YBTL has gained access to personal emails,
it is not drawing too long a bow to conclude that special skills may have been employed to intercept emails.

As you have knowledge that they were aquired from a disgruntled employee, that cancels the supposition.

Your comments on clandestine internet activity mirrors my experience,
you (and other readers) may be interested in a no-charge facility available from Norton / Symantec.

If you have Norton Internet Security installed,
you can download and subscribe free to a Norton/Symantec product called "Deep Sight Extractor"

This product interfaces with NIS and Symantec extract statistical data
regarding full details of all hacking attempts on your computer.

This project is aimed at identifying areas of high hacking activity and tracks the source.
You do not normally get advice on what has been determined, but besides some of the fed activity in Oz,
there is a large amount of hacking emanating from Bulgaria, India and Korea, things most of us are aware of.

Symantec will collate the data, esp IP identifying features, and improve their product to recognise known hacking IP's.

If you doubt any of this, I challenge any of you to disable your anti virus and firewall products for a week
and see if you haven't been probed, infiltrated and exploited or contaminated with a trojan horse, virus or worm.

anyway, believe it or not, there are some nasty things happening,
and the good guys in casa are not really able to do anything about it.

The nasty ones are compromising the good guys in CASA, the rot is deep and widespread.

However, there are many committed to exposing the crims, and they will, eventually. (and the upward trail in their network as well.)

[gaunty]

Captain Starlight
As you have knowledge that they were aquired from a disgruntled employee, that cancels the supposition. no to be fair to CASA I did not say it was from a former disgruntled CASA employee but from somone from another agency.

That they live or lived in the same town and may well share the same "views and exchange information" is for someone else to determine.

As that wonderful character Francis Urquhart played by Ian Richardson in that classic series "The House of Cards" trilogy, says's "you may well say that, but I couldn't possibly comment." = true.

Richardson said he modelled the character on Shakespeares' Richard III. :rolleyes:

If you haven't seen it get it out on video it demonstrates evil incarnate being practised in plain sight. I'm sure you will recognise many of the characters.

Having said that B1 and B2 need our continued support they have a difficult job are determined to to do it they just need people to give them the evidence or where to find it.

I'd be surprised if there would be fireworks as a result, that is not the way it works, but their will be action, without bringing the house down around their ears. Walk softly and carry a big stick.

They have the full support of the Minister.

[Captain Starlight]

Gaunty

Point taken re the interception of emails. That they were intercepted is fact.
How they were intercepted may not have been by electronic stealth,
more likely simple theft, such as printing them out without the owners authority or knowledge.

B1 and B2 are definitely on the case, and they are not likely to appreciate being deceived by the protectors.

B1 has frequently been given cold hard factual evidence, evidence that was at the time discounted.
(and given to the accused to investigate himself!!)

B2 is now in the game, and yes with B1 and B2 working on the problem, a resolution is likely.

The problem with the resolution, as you have noted, is dealing with the problem without being seen to lose face.

More sackings are indicated, both at Head Office, and at regional level.

Then, and only then can the new AM NQAO get on with the job of implementing Byron's desired reforms.

AC is held in good regard by the industry and is an ethical person, something that does not sit well with his subordinates.

Sufficient evidence, if available, should now be assembled to assist the AFP conduct an external investigation of certain questionable
and possibly criminal behaviour, rather than leaving it to CASA to investigate it's own.

CASA has proven incapable of conducting a credible internal investigation,
and cannot be permitted to waste another $50,000 on specifically tailored reports.

Byron was possibly misled in the conduct of the tailored investigation
and needs to have a little chat with those who made him look silly.

and yes, I will view the video, even though the similarities of behaviour may enrage me.

And finally, B1 and B2 need all the help, all the evidence that can be mustered, BUT, this time they MUST ACT!

[DYNAMIC STALL]

Just because you are paranoid doen't mean they are not out to get you.

I'd suggest if these guys can do what you say they can, then slandering them on here might be less anonymous than you think!!!!

[Woomera]

Hmmmm I don't think anyone in the middle of this is under any illusions or misapprehensions about who is doing what to whom and what is and is not being done about it.

Anyone choosing to retaliate against any who they think may post here simply proves the point as it is almost guaranteed that their actions will be posted here.

It has not been unknown in PPRuNeland for light to be shone into places some would rather it not be.

The internet and Bulletin Boards are a wonderful thing, it is the great leveller, it doesn't matter who or where you are, you can run but you can't hide.

The Voices of Reason in the NAS debate calmly and systematically defrocked the self appointed guru on the subject without using anything beyond rational process, resources and information available to anyone in the public domain. For the period the subject was on foot it was required reading in the industry.

Our job is simply to ensure it is not misused or abused.

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.,

[DYNAMIC STALL]

Woomera

In a post above someone says you can download a product that will tell you who is attempting to enter your PC (be that a server or normal PC), that product is a part of the normal full Symantic product.

Also available, from that same supplier, but only to authorized web masters, is a product that can cross reference IP addresses from almost any site, thus telling you who has posted what from where.

Recently, in the US federal court, such a product was used to prove that a certain person had posted information that was, in that country classified and, under an agreement, that person was extradited for charge in the US.

All I am saying is, take care.

[Captain Starlight]

SYSTEMIC FAILURES IN CASA NQAO ?

The fatality rate associated with this office continues to increase.

Maybe we can shell out another $50,000 of public money to
affirm that there are no systemic failures in CASA's NQAO ?

It is quite apparent that sneaking around quietly with a big stick and whacking people on the head doesn't work,
and has not resolved the fatal accident rate associated with this office.

Get rid of the failures and replace them with safety educators,
who can both communicate with, and work with the industry to achieve a mutual goal, SAFETY.

[Sunfish]

I was wondering when someone was going to postulate a connection between the tragedy at Lockhart River and certain alleged previous CASA behaviours. I hope for the sake of all concerned that there isn't one.

[Air Ace]

Anyone would be stretching a very long bow indeed, if they were to suggest a tangible connection between the Lockhart River accident and the parlous performance of the CASA offices in FNQ over many years.

Whilst FNQ may have the highest accident rate in Australia - although I haven't seen any statistics to support that fact - there are a number of mitigating factors, including inclement tropical weather patterns, short and poorly maintained strips etc.

However, I suspect this accident will be subject to a wide and deep investigation and inquiry during the course of which I'm sure CASA's performance in FNQ will be fully scrutinised.

One would think, at very least, there has been an offence against CAR 210 over many years, an offence of strict liability, with tacit CASA approval.

[DYNAMIC STALL]

Don't think there is what you'd call a tangible link.

But there is a political one.

MD of An Topical Aeroplane Company stands in Fed election for the 'Christian Loonies First Party', preference deals to follow.

Another Cape York Operator is investigated by said Corrupt Aviation Safety Authority office, this Cape York opertor loses valuable Government contracts to aforesaid operator.

Suddenly, CLF Party preferences the Nationals.

Now I really don't think the Honerable the Minister for QANTAS would do anything like this and I am absolutely sure people like Tony Windsor would vouch for him. :E

BUT, that aint nuffin to do with the tragedy, and I mean that!!!!

[Mainframe]

Firstly and foremost, this accident is tragic and has snuffed out the lives of some I and others knew.

Grief has a natural process to follow,
firstly DENIAL, it hasn't really happened,
then ANGER, this shouldn't have happened to these people,
then BLAME, no explanation needed,
then resignation and ACCEPTANCE,
yes, it has happened, and everything will be done to explain why.

Should there be any scrutiny of the NQAO, surely an independant external investigator,
not appointed or paid by CASA, will establish that this is an exemplary outpost of the regulator,
that there has been no questionable conduct by any of the senior staff at any time and that all of the alleged
misconduct, the alleged bias, the alleged lack of fair and impartial treatment, is indeed a fallacy?

Well, won't it ?




Sunfish,

Why ?

JetAok

Who really is the operator ? Think hard about it.

Air Ace

A deep and thorough external scrutiny of the CASA NQAO can only be healthy, as opposed to "independant internal investigations".

Dynamic Stall

All is not as it seems. A deep and external scrutiny will shed light in the darkness of backroom deals.

[DYNAMIC STALL]

Things are never as they seem deep down.

But even on the surface, that one smells.

Barry

[Air Ace]

CAR210, an offence of strict liability.

How can an aircraft bear the name of one operator who sells tickets, publically advertises and promotes an RPT service, provides passenger terminal services - without holding the AOC and specified aircraft type - when, unbeknown to the punters, the service is operated by another unrelated operator who owns the aircraft and holds the required AOC?

:confused:

[Creampuff]

From pp 175-176 of the Senate Hansard for Tuesday 10 May 2005, available at: http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/dailys/ds100505.pdfCivil Aviation Safety Authority

(Question No. 357)

Senator Mark Bishop asked the Minister representing the Minister for Transport and Regional Services, upon notice, on 23 February 2005:

(1) Would the Minister provide a list of activities that may be reported under the Civil Aviation Safety Authority’s (CASA) protected disclosure policy.

(2) How many reports by activity type have been lodged since the inception of the protected disclosure policy.

(3) What is the process by which STOPline was selected for its role in the protected disclosure policy.

(4) Who made the final decision to engage STOPline.

(5) What is the annual amount to be paid to STOPline for its role in the protected disclosure policy.

(6) When did STOPline’s contract commence and when is it due to finish.

(7) Would the Minister confirm that STOPline regularly monitors CASA’s actions in dealing with disclosures and that reports are provided to CASA’s Audit and Risk Committee.

(8) Does the Minister receive a copy of these reports; if so, how often are the reports provided.

(9) Can these reports be made available to the Senate; if not, why not.

(10) Would the Minister provide the dates, numbers and office locations of instances of staff discipline resulting from the protected disclosure policy since its inception.

(11) Would the Minister provide the dates, numbers and office locations of instances of staff dismissal resulting from the protected disclosure policy since its inception.

(12) Would the Minister provide the numbers, office locations and commencement dates of instances of legal proceedings brought against staff resulting from the protected disclosure policy since its inception.

Senator Ian Campbell—The Minister for Transport and Regional Services has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question:

(1) The Protected Disclosure Policy sets out the conduct that may be reported under that Policy. The Policy provides that a person may report conduct under the Policy, which, in the honest belief of the person making the report:

(a) is dishonest; or

(b) is fraudulent; or

(c) is corrupt; or

(d) is illegal (including theft, drugs sale/use, violence or threatened violence and criminal damage against property);

(e) is in breach of Commonwealth or State legislation or local authority by-laws; or

(f) is unethical (either representing a breach of CASA’s code of conduct or generally); or

(g) constitutes serious and improper conduct; or

(h) results in, or contributes to, an unsafe workplace; or

(i) constitutes a repeated instance of breach of administrative procedures; or

(j) constitutes gross mismanagement; or

(k) constitutes, or results in, a serious and substantial waste of CASA resources; or

(l) constitutes a reprisal for disclosing reportable conduct; or

(m) may cause financial or non-financial loss to CASA or may otherwise be detrimental to the interests of CASA.

(2) Five (5) reports have been lodged with CASA since the commencement of CASA’s Protected Disclosure Policy, these include:
- 2 allegations of corrupt conduct/behaviour
- 1 allegation of fraudulent travel claims
- 2 reports were assessed as not fitting within the scope of reportable conduct.

(3) At the time STOPline was selected, it was the only private and independent company specialising in this field known to CASA.

(4) STOPline was engaged under contract signed by the Chief Executive Officer.

(5) $18,000 per annum

(6) The contract commenced on 19 April 2004 for a two-year period ending on 18 April 2006.

(7) STOPline monitors CASA’s actions to ensure that matters are progressed and that complainants are advised of progress on their complaints. STOPline does not independently assess whether CASA’s actions in response to a complaint are appropriate or adequate CASA’s Audit and Risk Committee is regularly provided with summaries of all internal investigations, and is informed about any allegations received by CASA via the STOPline process and the actions taken to address the allegations. The Committee is not provided with copies of investigation reports.

(8) The Minister does not receive copies of these reports.

(9) The reports generally deal with named individuals. For privacy reasons, it would not be appropriate for these reports to be provided to the Senate.

(10) One staff member in Canberra received formal counselling in 2004. One staff member in Canberra received informal (verbal) counselling in 2004. Both these disciplinary measures resulted from the receipt of a single protected disclosure.

(11) No staff dismissals have occurred as a result of a protected disclosure investigation.

(12) No legal proceedings have commenced against any CASA staff member as a result of a protected disclosure investigation.

[Stink Finger]

Creampuff,

Oh Gee, I wonder where this line of questioning is going.

Captain Starlight,

I would also think that connection is a bit of a long bow to draw, having said that, this is no where near as long as the bows the four of our friends have tried to draw.

Did you know Pinnochio is trying to enforce the post flight fuel calculations ( i.e how much fuel remains in the tanks post flight ) as a requirement for Charter, in his not so humble opinion a charter is a scheduled flight ????.

Mr Rum has stated that a pilot must have access their companies Operations Manual (COM) 24 hours per day, if the company was to issue the pilot with the COM on CD, the company must provide the pilot with a computer to use at home ?????.

I would like to reiterate that CASA is not the core problem, the previously mentioned four representative are, as they make the rules up as they go, lets not even look at their collective histories of industry related failures ( AKA Careers ).

AC, NF, CW, RP are approachable, experienced professionals that have a job to do, which i feel they do well, i feel its unfair to paint these gents with the same brush as Ronald, Pinnochio, Mr Rum and the RFDS night specialist.

MR Newby, well the jury is still out on him.

[Captain Starlight]

Creampuff

Thank you for the very informative post on CASA's protective disclosure stance.

Provided CASA does not investigate (protect?) it's own, there may be some hope here for those with hard evidence
of misconduct, criminal acts, unethical behaviour and other matters associated with the over achieving office,
and some other offices.

Stinkfinger

Always relieved to see you're still able to communicate with us.
(they haven't nailed you yet !)

Maybe a long bow to draw, but a proper investigation by an external and truly independant investigator
may uncover serious systemic issues and failures, not only with NQAO, but with CASA itself.

For starters, just look at the recruitment process that seems to foster industry and military failures.

For the salaries being paid to some of the failures,
surely psychological screening could save CASA and the industry a lot of future problems.

As FOI's are generally getting airline type salaries, airline type screening is justifiable.

Your observations regarding the team with their integrity intact seems to be right on the money (AC CW NF RP).

This team, has the support and trust of the industry and particularly AC
with his efforts at dialogue with his constituents in the industry.

The other team is certainly ethically and morally challenged, and bereft of any semblance of integrity.

Pinoccio and Mr Rum are not under any duress,
they compete with each other by the magnitude of their misconduct
for their "illustrious Leader"s approval.

Pinoccio has slowly emerged as the favoured one, perhaps that will spur Mr Rum to greater efforts to impress?

The night specialist is a bit of a quandary, some feel that he has some degree of ethics, but is under duress,
and thus his conduct is to ensure his survival, not to gain approval.
That conduct has been questionable at times and is well known,
as is his occasional carelessness with truth.

(Pinoccio has no problems at all with truth, he consistently confirms that he is a compulsive prevaricator.
If that is a genetic defect, then perhaps he may be excused.)

[Captain Starlight]

Refer to the weekend edition, Courier Mail.

"Lockhart River Tragedy"

and to my post above.

________________________________________________
"Maybe a long bow to draw, but a proper investigation by an external and truly independant investigator
may uncover serious systemic issues and failures, not only with NQAO, but with CASA itself."
________________________________________________

The Courier Mail suggests that ATSB also had prior anonymous concerns expressed to them, as did CASA.

CASA has been known in the past to act on anonymous and unverified information, so what's holding them back this time?

When the proper EXTERNAL INVESTIGATION eventuates, watch for a lot more truth being revealed,
then judge for yourself if the regulator has always acted fairly and impartially with regard to all operators.

Unfortunately Batman and Robyn may soon need to leave Gotham City,
and hand over law and order to others less ethically challenged.

THE TRUTH WILL PREVAIL.

Understand this axiom: even though it may take time, all will eventually come out in the wash.

[Stink Finger]

Captain S,

As i am sure you are aware, RPT operators such as Transair, are audited by CASA every six months, this audit is in addition to the relevant contracts audits ( such as mining and petrochemical companies ).

"L" would not hold an RPT licence in OZ or PNG if he didn't have appropriate systems in place.

A long Bow, let me expand, i do not feel that CASA TL caused this accident through the incomptence of Ronald and friends. The operator is serviced by CASA BN, much to "L"'s relief i am sure.

As far as the clown pilot, with his voice masked being filmed in a dark office goes, well you find me an operator that does not have a " I told you so disgruntled employee", that would be stupid enough to go to the media with catch cries such as " Systemic Management Failures".

I have no idea what this individuals story was, he has demonstrated publicly why he will not suceed in life, "The glass is half empty I tell you".

Have a look on pprune at the accident topics, Lake Evella, Horn Island etc etc, there is always one.

I would feel dirty to try to use TFU as ammunition against the TL office cretons. From my experience their incompetence is best illustrated by their desire to see all aircraft on the ground, therefore no accidents.

What has the FDR indicated ?, let me float a hypothesis, what if the pilots just stuffed up, out of tolerance and below the step ( look at the RWY 12 GPS NPA for LHR ), how could you possibly point the bone on this one ?.

I make mistakes, what about you ?.

Pushing this point will do more damage than good to the cause, what Ronald and his friends have done to date is disgacefull and will not be forgotten, the truth will prevail. Stay on the course and you'll be right, otherwise you'll start to look like a nut case.

[Captain Starlight]

SF,

Thank you for your advice and counsel, consider it digested and heeded.

I too am also satisfied that the truth will eventually prevail.

Yes, we all make mistakes, a famous quote: "to err is human",

most of us are lucky enough to survive and learn from our human experiences, be it driving a car,
flying a plane or just our daily interactions in this life we cherish.

As for the disgruntled ex employees, they tend to proliferate at times of vulnerability,
but who really trusts CASA enough to talk to them ?

Once upon a time we could talk openly to them with mutual trust and respect,
and when Byron eventually achieves his reforms,
we may again all be partners in the mutual desire for safety.

[Cousin Cletus]

otherwise you'll start to look like a nut case. :}

Too late for that:\

[Torres]

The integrity of a CASA audit is directly related to the competence, professionalism and integrity of the CASA auditor(s). In many, possibly most cases, the conclusions and outcomes are influenced not by compliance with the Act and Regulations, but reflect a biased personal opinion of the auditor(s).

Consider the following extract from an Australian Flying magazine article, in relation to a FNQ operator:

4-6 November 1997:
A periodic inspection is conducted by an FOI from Cairns District. The officer's report, subsequently obtained only at the direction of the Administrative Appeals Tribunal, says: "20 NCNs in total!" (exclamation mark as in the report.) The report added that: "This is no longer a compliant operator."

17-20 November 1997:
(Operator) is visited by an unannounced team headed by the Manager, Safety Audits, Southeast Region.
The four-man team conduct a four-day audit over 52 man-hours, which results in the issue of four NCNs. Three of these detailed minor errors in maintenance documentation, and one questioned dangerous goods acceptance procedures. The report concluded: "(Operator is) considered not to be an unsafe operator."

1-4 December 1997:
At the direction of CASA's Canberra office, two investigators and one Cairns FOI conduct an investigation with the following terms of reference: "Determine the extent of operations in the Torres Strait region which are being conducted for fare paying passengers that fall into the definition of RPT and which are currently being conducted as charter." The TOR directed that: "The differentiation between RPT and charter that is to be used for this investigation shall be drawn from the "draft" paper prepared by (a CASA lawyer) as attached."
The draft opinion, later obtained by (the Operator), attempted to define the five elements which must exist to constitute RPT. However it provided no definitions of two of the critical elements: "Specific route" and "fixed terminal".
The investigators had thus been instructed to investigate whether operators were in breach not of a regulation or rule, but of a draft opinion, which failed to provide critical definitions.

Three audits over one month:
The first audit concludes: "This is no longer a compliant operator."
The second audit, two weeks later, concludes: "(Operator is) considered not to be an unsafe operator."
The third audit is based not on the Act or Regulations, but a "draft" paper prepared by (a CASA lawyer).

There are professional men of integrity employed by CASA. I fear it is an ever diminishing minority.

[Creampuff]

You and Mr Phelan would have a teensy bit more credibility if you at least acknowledged the fact that Deputy President Dr Gerber of the AAT found, as CASA had found, that the game being played in the Torres Strait was RPT:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/aat/1999/329.html

[bushy]

Was it safe, or unsafe? Or doesn't that matter.
Are casa regulating safety, or is this commercial regulation?

[gaunty]

Creampuff

My only question is how come it took CASA so long to shut em down?

Other observations might be;

That a gazillion hours as a pilot can often mean very little at all.

It seems duck shoving, dissembling and delusion has been raised to an exquisite art form.

Mr Gill was critical of the pilot who noted this apparent defect, because the problem had been rectified on a previous occasion. According to Mr Gill, it was clear that the pilot, upon noticing a blistering of the fibreglass mistakenly took this to mean that the exhaust was burning a hole. :rolleyes: speaks volumes and is the least of it.

Scary stuff.:{

Whatever the mining company was paying their aviation consultant if they had one was waaaay too much. If they hadn't got one by then duty of care says they should have? If you can find one who actually knows of which he speaks.

Then duty of care says Qld Education need an active and fully documented aviation policy and we wont even go near the recent Medical Dept accident that took out a bunch of their senior medicos.

Is Mr Phelan suggesting that this type of operation was being victimised by CASA.:confused:


bushy what is commercial regulation in this case ?

[Creampuff]

Bushy:

If it’s RPT that doesn’t meet RPT standards, the passengers are exposed to risks to which they are lawfully and morally entitled not to be exposed.

It’s the regulatory distinction between charter and RPT that is based on commercial considerations and indefensible on safety grounds.

Gaunty: don’t get me started!

[Mainframe]

Creampuff and Bushy,

Although on different flight paths, you're both actually converging to the same destination.

The role of the regulator and which regulator regulates which operator is entirely relevant.

If you are a Moorabbin or Essendon AOC holder operating in FNQ,
it is unlikely that the FNQ regulator has visited or surveilled you.

It appears that the regulator assigned to the base office AOC holder has the sole prerogative of surveillance.

Like wise if you operate under a capital city regional airline office of the regulator, then the FNQ regulators don't look at you.

Despite the mix of AOC origins that operate full time in FNQ,
the FNQ regulators only shine the torch on their own assigned operators.

This modus operandi effectively dilutes the effectiveness of any surveillance, it penalises some local operators,
and places them at a commercial disadvantage to those full time FNQ operators not assigned to the FNQAO.

Creamy, the tried and tested "travel agent" loophole may well be still alive and still popular.

The "RPT service" is still operating, company A is now using company C, while company B is left holding the can.

Your original "RPT" detectives would have a field day.

Company A grew out of the demise of Wingz North and Coral Sea Air.

MK was heavily involved until last year.

We await the reforms, the level playing field, the fair and impartial treatment and any other silly impediments to the displayed real agenda of the regulator.

[Captain Starlight]

Cousin C,

If championing the cause of Truth and Justice is a form of insanity,
then I plead guilty.

I note that you have not yet made a worthwhile contribution, but seem to prefer throwing stones from the sidelines.

If you are with the regulator, I understand the shame you must feel with the conduct of a small group of your colleagues.

[bushy]

Does a Caribou meet RPT standards?
What about a Cessna 210?.

[bushy]

WHAT AUSTRALIA DESPARATELY NEEDS, AND WHAT THEY ARE DESPARATELY TRYING TO PREVENT

Have a look at www.sats.com and click on "take off to Danville"

Sorry, that should have been www.sats2005.com

[Sunfish]

Bushy! What a great idea!

[Stink Finger]

Rumour has it, and that is why we are here, that Ronald ( the holder of one of very few ADF Distinguished paper work medals ), has been given a very small list of options by the new GA branch:

1. redundancy,
2. relocate ( NT's nice this time of year ),
3. removal.

I feel it is sad this has had too happen, why did it take so long, there has been untold ( in most part ) damage done to many many organisations.

Heres to a new day.

A new TLFO, hopefully lessons of the past will not be forgotten.

Cousin Cletus,
What is your interest in this topic other than attempting to make it look like a Three Ring Circus ?, as has been said many times, truth will prevail.

There are still many more deeds of "Over Permformance" to be presented to this public forum, does this concern you ?.

[Captain Starlight]

Stink Finger

This has the makings of a good rumour, if only it were true.

If true, it marks the end of a reign of terror,
characterised by bullying, bastardry, harassment, lying,
deceiving, intimidating, undermining, perverting, slandering,
conspiring, corrupting,distorting,embellishing and other acts that led to over 700 complaints.

If there really is an option of him moving to another region, then CASA has effectively condoned this misfit's psychotic behaviour.

By all means give him a golden handshake, there's going to be a queue forming
as to who is going to sue him first, and he'll need a little change for that.

If this rumour is true, thank you to those who had the cojones to do what had to be done,
and what everyone else has avoided doing.

And finally, Byron's reform program has gained some credibility.

On that note, now start identifying and bringing to heel this misfit's protectors.

And let's ensure that Pinoccio is next off the rank and on his way, driving a taxi, delivering pizzas,
mowing lawns or some job out of aviation, where he has so miserably failed.

When this rumour is actually confirmed, there will be some quiet reassmbling of ruined lives,
ruined businesses, and maybe, just maybe, a celebration.

Drum Batman and Robin out of the regiment, publicly.

Then send a signal to the rogue element elsewhere that it's over, conform or leave, that simple.

Please God, let this rumour be true?

[Mainframe]

Stink Finger and Starlight

About time.

Check my post in the YLHR GPS/NPA thread regarding the five year fatality rate for the NQAO.

How about 52 fatalities ?

As I stated there, the evidence is glaringly obvious, there is NO obvious emphasis on safety,

just an overwhelming desire to write up as many RCA's, ASIR's as possible, and the pursuit of personal vendettas,
against their own staff and selected operators.

When the new AM, AC, gets rid of the problem and its devotees,
he will continue with his established desire to
consult, mentor, encourage, and where necessary dsicipline.

Once trust, confidence and respect has been fully restored, we can all get on with working together
to improve our safety record and compliance.

This is how it used to be before the ascendancy of OLC.
The ascendancy of OLC may be graphed and will depict the reciprocal decline
of General Aviation, and the decline of safety.

By all means penalise the deliberate flaunting of rules and safety,
identify the shonks and the financially unviable,
encourage them to either move on, or gain financial backing.

but work with the mostly compliant to help them lift their standards to where we all want them to be.

Be like the country Police seargent, fit in with the community, but gently enforce the law by co-operation, and if that fails, action.

We should all display this poster somewhere in our office / crew rooms:

If you think SAFETY is expensive, try an Accident

[gaunty]

Bring it on. :ok:

By all means penalise the deliberate flaunting of rules and safety, identify the shonks and the financially unviable,
encourage them to either move on, or gain financial backing.



or are we to follow the insane logic ? of the President of a sometime GA advocacy organisation who suggests in a major Australian newspaper;

"What price do you have to pay for safety?" he said.

"If you can't afford it, what happens? Do you operate unsafely? This is getting very, very scary and more to the point it's proving that CASA is not capable of regulating aviation any more."
:confused:

I think what he meant to say was, "if you can't afford it then get the hell out of the way and leave it to those who can."??? or did he??

[captain_cranky]

Cousin Cletus, What is your interest in this topic other than attempting to make it look like a Three Ring Circus?

I dont think the backwater cousin needs to!

The three 'Rings' keeping this thread alive are doing a good enough job of the circus theme.:E

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Captain Cranky,

You are another new comer, 28may05, who's barrow are you pushing.

To suggest that the people on this topic are stupid or missinformed is a big statement, if Captain Starlight is correct, 700 complaints, this is a shockingly high number wouldn't you think ?.

You might also see some interesting trends within the Senate Comittee Hearing ( thanks Creampuff ), that give credence to what is being talked about here.

WRT the high numbers of fatalaties in FNQ, well the more people that fly the more that die, Northern NSW is alot less dependant on Aviation as a primary means of transport than FNQ.

I can not see how a direct line between LHR and anybody elses actions other than those in the pointy end of TFU could be contemplated.

TFU was not the first aircraft to fly that approach in IMC.

I'd suggest that it is a fair question "Cousin Cletus, What is your interest in this topic ?", also a new comer ( barrow pushing ? ).

[Woomera]

eeerm captain_cranky like his cousin is taking a bit of a rest from this thread contemplating the manner of constructive input and can't see your reply.

[Captain Starlight]

Stinky

What's happening with the rumour about Ronald's new opportunities?

Is this the same source that had Ronald going to Canberra to seek his fame and fortune,
and be closer to his protectors?

Is a new day dawning?

Will truth and Justice prevail?

We are tuned and waiting for the next exciting episode.

Start sniffing for factual information, this is too good not to celebrate, and we don't wish to be premature.

[Stink Finger]

CS, Time will tell.

I'd also like to thank "Four Corners" for accepting the offer that was extended to them recently, for those in Cairns and Townsville, if you haven't yet seen them to have your say, contact them.

In most part they appear well informed and clincal in their approach to what they are trying to investigate. Using such words as Royal Commision, incompetent, Ronald, old boys club, lacking relevant industry experience.

Enjoy !.

[Captain Starlight]

Stink Finger

Heard they have been seen in the North, Cairns LHR and Bamaga.

Also heard they are running into silence from operators and pilots, due to fear of reprisals.

Like the sound of Royal Commission, that will bring forward people willing to testify,
without fear of reprisal. I guess if we're game, and have nothing to lose, talking to them
may help the inquiry process get off the ground. Hope it doesn't falter due lack of verifiable anecdotes.

If they smell blood, I'm sure they will be clinical as you suggest, and thorough, and legally briefed.

Let's hope they find the corrupt and despicable, the incompetant and the inept, on both sides, if they do in fact exist.

[Mainframe]

CS and Stinky

Great to hear that 4 Corners has aquired an interest in the NQAO
and the conduct (or selective lack of) of some of it's staff.

It seems that the star of the show may be Ronald
(or Batman, Don Quixote, Pinoccio's enamoured, or whatever pseudonym he is currently assigned)
thus fulfilling his desire for fame and notoriety.

Also going to be a bit tough on B1 and B2, NH, the protector and others who have known all along
that he was seriously out of line.

They were petitioned and informed and failed miserably to do other than commission the tailored Skehill report.

Spare a thought for AC, the new AM, who was sold this office without being informed that it was CASA's most dysfunctional.

A commission of inquiry will clear AC of any complicity, however, the others are going to have
an uncomfortable time in the witness box, and their lame excuses should be almost comical to hear.

The local Federal MP has tried to have this matter resolved,
but he is unfortunately not taken seriously enough by the Minister and his own party, the Nationals.

B1 and B2 may have been misled initially, but have since been informed,
methinks a royal commission may be more wide reaching than the very narrow Skehill report.

Truth and Justice, historically, always and ultimately prevail, lets hope it is sooner than later.

Understand they (4C) may visit Cairns on Monday, have they been to Townsville yet?

[Captain Starlight]

Mainframe and Stinkfinger,

to quote Gaunty: "Bring it on!!"

Four Corners, and some style of Inquiry to follow.

Time for the good guys in CASA to stand up and be counted, and for the others, to get out of town before sunset.

Those that live by the sword die by the sword.

The new day dawning is still a marvellous dream, for us and the good guys.

Unfortunately the good guys in CASA can't talk to Four Corners,
but I'm sure they will all sing in glorious harmony when subpoenaed at the inquiry.

B1 and B2, this is going to help you get on with what you've been paid and tasked to do,
welcome it for the exposure it will provide for those evading you.

[Mainframe]

Well, did Four Corners get to Townsville?

Have they filmed Batman and Robin?

I guess we need to wait and see when it goes to air, if it does.

[Stink Finger]

Very recently Pinnochio had the opportunity, and stepped up to the plate, to make an ass of himself at YHID.

Pinnochio and company ramped a very junior pilot who was flying a Class B single engine piston aircraft at YHID.

During this two tremendous crimes were commited by the pilot:

1. Having luggage secured by means of seat belt on a empty passenger seat ( not control seat and baggage weighing about 25 kg) ,

2. Removing and re-installing a seat in the aircraft.

The pilot was set apon by pinnochio ( verbally), publicly berated in front of his peers for these terrible crimes.

When they were shown the relevant, what do you call those things,,,,ummm,,,, regulations that allowed all of the above, they responded by informing the pilot they were not going to write up RCA's for these offences.

What a very very poor show, if you make a mistake Pinnochio, have the balls to admit it.

Do you think this pilot ( or anyone else that witnessed this show )has a very high opinion of CASA's representation.

[Torres]

They have a long history, almost without exception, of making fools of themselves in the Straits to the extent on one previous occasion, the Director himself went to personally witness this den on inniquity!

Times have changed. Some faces have changed. Philosophy remains the same!

[gaunty]

Stink Finger
When they were shown the relevant, what do you call those things,,,,ummm,,,, regulations that allowed all of the above, they responded by informing the pilot they were not going to write up RCA's for these offences. :confused: How very decent of them.

As the operator I would at the the very least have demanded a personal apology to the youngster, followed by a fairly vigorous "please explain" to B1 and 2 with stat decs from witnesses, cc'd to the Minister and the opposition shadow. If you put it writing they are bound to reply.

Squawking about it here might make you feel better, but will not bring any tangible results.
Just make sure you have your facts clear and calmy communicated.

[Stink Finger]

Squawking about it here , is the means by which we are starting to see action.

As has previously been pointed out, many many letters, many many CP's and MD have made the journey to CB, apparently 700 odd complaints, and Lil Ol Pprune seems to be the most direct and effective medium.

[Woomera]

Well, at least this thread has been read 18,496 times ........ and I'll wager a few of those were in the building on the corner of Northbourne Avenue & Barry Drive Canberra.

:}

Woomera

[Captain Starlight]

Stinkfinger

Always delighted to see your presence on this thread.

Pinoccio's desire to please his "illustrious leader" knows no bounds. Such is the nature of his desire to please.

Let him enjoy himself. Having been sacked or asked to leave from virtually any aviation job he's had is quite a cross to bear.

Little does he realise that his past form will result in yet another career change, out of aviation.

As for his "illustrious leader", his time too is nigh.

With regard to the NQAO, there may be a "coming out" party soon.
This office features more little men with mustaches than Oxford St, Paddington at Mardi Gras time.

Either there is an enclave with a particular proclivity for the bizarre,
or there is a resident revivalist movement for the Hitler adoration society.

This is not a venue for normal Australians, with normal Australian values.

That it is a publicly funded enclave is serious cause for concern.

[Mainframe]

CS and Stinky

The Dawn of the New Day is rapidly approaching.

Until it does,
no pilot ramped by the dysfunctional NQAO should permit the ramp check to proceed without
recording the event, preferably by video, or having a police officer present.

The area manager, and Bruce Byron, need irrefutable evidence of the misconduct practiced by this office.

Until such times as the Area Manager removes the problem, you are advised that a police presence
may be your only defence to what Batman and Robin, and a few inept AWI's,
can do to your career, your livelihood or your business.

Eventually the misfits will be identified, until they do, either protect yourself with a police witness,
or record the event, or simply refuse to participate until such arrangements can be made.

[Captain Starlight]

Mainframe and Stinkfinger

Four Corners, ABC, Monday Night, 8:30pm 4th July.

Windmill Tilting TLFO ?

Recognition of 52 fatalities achievement ?

Let's get the SAFETY back into CASA.

[Mainframe]

technically excellent filming and reporting, but why did they go soft on CASA.

Understand that that only 10% of material researched and documented by team was shown.

Is there a stand alone CASA expose coming up soon, or did the legal department put the brakes on?

Bet there was some relief in Townsville tonight, hope it's short lived and the story is "to be continued".

[Woomera]

It would be reasonable that legal issues may have limited the scope of the program. Indeed, I think the producers demonstrated professionalism in not preempting the ATSB Report.

Overall, an excellent program.

I got the distinct impression I saw Disco Stu's pussy Tipsey coughing up a fur ball on the ABC Forum!! :}

Woomera

[gaunty]

Hmmmmmmm much more of a whimper than a bang.

Brian made the most relevant comments re cost per seat regional v city, Brians X three times is probably on the light side.
By definition it is simply not possible to charge anything remotely approaching mainline seat mile costs for regional services.
Why do they persist in trying to make the punishment fit the crime.
And they were trying to "top" up revenue by going into LHR with $100 seats. :mad: to defend their route against a "bigger" by that I presume they meant real airline.
Excuse me, it would cost at the very least an extra $5-600 for the extra landing and takeoff (forget about landing fees I'm talking about operational costs) there in addition to the overflight costs.
I doubt the traffic would support that.
As usual they confuse cash flow with profit.

But I forget the "airline" was only the marketing arm for the various aircraft operators utilised. :rolleyes:

We need aviation equity in the remote regional areas, subsidised to the same standard as the City folks get. Period.

Capt :rolleyes: on $21,000 and a promotion to $31,000 and they expect us to take em seriously, the "anon" ex pilot was smarter than the rest making more money driving a truck, and nowadays the trucking rules are probably stricter than in that part of aviation.

Each and every young pilot who accepts "work" under those conditions should hang their head in shame and take their share of responsibility for the state of the industry. They have no absolutely no right to complain about their lot.

1 Million dollar "airliners" ferchrissakes :{ and we wonder why they have trouble rounding up the $60,000 for the EGPWS. :*
If the Chief Pilot actually knew what one of them things was for, he wasn't letting on. :sad:
He gave a disgraceful performance, I'd like to see him in the witness stand, a properly instructed boy barrister even, would do him over.

From what I saw the locals should stay afraid, very afraid until either local airline get, taken down and the "bigger" mob can start to charge the real fare or the Government gets the message and subsidises a real airline, maybe even the local one, with real airline aircraft or both instead of using peoples lives, wannabe pilots and hand me down clunkers.

CASA can only regulate what the Government mandates as policy, it's no good shouting at CASA (well except on the TVL business which is another issue entirely), the Government are the only ones who can mandate the fundamental changes required in our regional services and the way and with what they are operated.

What the operators do not seem to understand is that they would be able to operate real airline aircraft with real pilots, making real profits, its immensely satisfying, if they would all shoot at the right target.

I'll give them a clue, It's not CASA.

Brian knows precisely what and how it needs to be done.

Hmmmmmmm much more of a whimper than a bang. maybe not, maybe that butterfly fluttering its wings in the rainforest just might start the storm of the century.

[Stink Finger]

"Each and every young pilot who accepts "work" under those conditions should hang their head in shame and take their share of responsibility for the state of the industry. They have no absolutely no right to complain about their lot."

I couldn't agree more, if any of these young pilots, or scum bags that have worked for free send me a CV it's straight in the round filing cabinet under my desk.

As was pointed out, it is actually illegal for people to be paid this poorly, the AFAP is one by one rounding these operators into the Industrial Relations Court to try and enforce the award. This would not be necesarry if QLD IR had the balls to mandate the AFAP award as a state accepted award, is most other states they already have, as we have seen in the various NAC threads.

Why would Les allow himself to be the scape goat for the time frame for the introduction of EGPWS, if he said " Yes, EGPWS would have probably evaded this accident", ever heard the term duty of care, someone would certainly be throwing those words at Les in a witness box.

[gaunty]

Stink Finger

With respectWhy would Les allow himself to be the scape goat for the time frame for the introduction of EGPWS, if he said " Yes, EGPWS would have probably evaded this accident", ever heard the term duty of care, someone would certainly be throwing those words at Les in a witness box.

5 years is plenty of time and if the aircraft in question was "new" into Australia, were there aircraft in the US market with it already installed? There seem to be many (maybe the other 58 in Oz) either already equipped or retroed.
In any event the status would have been known and the installation a priority perhaps even during the C of A. Dollars.

It's the difference between proactive and reactive safety management.

It is within the power of CASA to regulate the specification of "new" additions before a C of A is issued, such that it must comply with current and future known requirements prior.

"Duty of care" is here a two edged sword, a court would very quickly decide which edge was the sharper. The Chief Pilot of such an organisation should know very well how it works. I could not determine it from the programme but it is even possible that other aircraft in the fleet have already been operating with it.
You can't have it both ways.

IMHO on the balance of probabilities an EGPWS WOULD have prevented this accident, assuming the crew were not totally negligent.

Probing deeper, the comments on the 4 Corners Forum and elsewhere, confirm an aerodynamic observation of the type as being "difficult to handle with a narrow band of flight parameters". We could simply start with the wing and power loading. The aircraft started out as a Queen Air, the MTOW is now close to double. :eek:
Why then no autopilot? Dollars?.
I know the answer but it is not the point. Most new FBW airline aircraft simply could not be flown without computer intervention and that's dollars but dollars spent on making them more efficient.
In this case given the above an autopilot should be mandated.
Shades of the time CAA/CASA permitted <5700kg turbine aircraft to NOT carry radar, I think at the time because of operators cries of the "cost" of repair and maintenance. Dollars?
How do you safely and efficiently operate a turbine without radar?:rolleyes:

I guess this is the "affordable safety" process in action.:mad:

[gaunty]

JetA_OK

I find it amusing that you still compare the Metro 23 to the Metro 1 aircraft that Ed Swearingen played with in the 60s. With the exception of the Metro name they are very different aircraft - granted though, this doesn't suit your argument. may I suggest you google Straw Man, then examine your comment above against what you find.

I think if we want to change this we need to direct our energies at government policy rather than operators. you obviously haven't been reading my posts over the years.

Yes Govt policy AND the operators. It is they who have lobbied the bar down not up with Government, Fed and State.

From another thread Clunker C90s killing your irreplaceable and priceless top medical men seems counterproductive to me.
Why are they still mired in the thinking that deep discounts on seats at a level below costs into a new port is going to save them. You do that to put cream on the cake not to make it.

Whilst they continue to employ pilots at third world wages and all of the usual fol de rol that goes on predating each others markets and so on in the race to the bottom, I remain deaf to the operators who cry foul on the regulator.

[Mainframe]

Gaunty and JetA_ok,

Excellent commentary and observations, however maybe it should be on the Lockhart River Thread.
(This one is dedicated to the dysfunctional Townsville office of CASA)

It is regrettable that the other operator on the Cairns Bamaga service, using a Brasilia,
is now caught out with the EGPWS deadline.

Given that EMB120, P2-HLA was put on the Australian register as VH-RPX only in the last 12 months,
how could it have slipped through certification without EGPWS?

This is another example of CASA dropping the ball or having selective vision.
It is unlikely that the Townsville office was involved in this case.

There is no doubt that this operator has the financial wherewithal to remedy this,
and it is reasonable to expect that this aircraft, the right one for the route,
will be back in service asap.

Now back to CASA and Townsville.

.CASA Nth Qld Area Office

B1 (Bruce Byron) and entourage will be escaping the Canberra cold and meeting the industry this week.

It may be a good idea for all up north able to attend to do so.

Question time will be limited, don't waste time with trivial questions, ask concise but hard hitting ones.

Don't be afraid of the presence of the "Illustrious Leader", his credibility is now under very careful scrutiny,
and his days of bastardising, bullying and harassment are just about over.
(Keep an eye open for the Oxford St, Paddington, look a likes.)

If you have factual, not anecdotal, problems with his leadership, express it, the protectors won't be able to dilute or distort it.

This is one of the few occasions when B1 can get direct feedback without it being edited by his subordinates


Details of the venue are:


Cairns Aviation Skills Centre:
1 Tom McDonald Drive, General Aviation Area, Cairns Airport
Date: 10:00 - 13:00, Thursday 7th July 2005

Southbank Hotel and Convention Centre
17 - 23 Palmer St, South Townsville
Date: 10:00- 13:00, Friday 8th July 2005.

Please don't let B1 leave town with the impression that there is no problem with this office,
or that the Skehill report was the final solution.

If no one speaks up, that will be the message he takes back with him.

[gaunty]

JetA_OK

I expect there is much with which we are in heated agreement, but I am not the least bit myopic, too long sighted maybe.

Not all of them require your insight in order to improve their business. it's not just my insight, but that of the FAA and many others in Australia.

The public certainly doesn't get it and I'm fairly certain that many of the operators of whom you speak would know of which I speak at the most fundamental level.

It's got nothing whatsoever to do with the ability to fly or operate any particular type of aircraft within (or without) the regulations.

I have been banging on about Government support/subsidy for remote community ops for as long as I can remember.

I have run operations that were so, succesfully at a fully viable and profitable by formal accounting standards Govt subsidised revenue rate and with then state of the art machinery.

The writing was on the wall for that, when DCA lost the "assumed" power to regulate entry into the market on economic in addition to safety.

It was a requirement of issue and continuation of your AOC that you demonstrate, annually, that you had the financial capacity to fulfil your AOC obligations. That required demonstrating a formal business case and the capital backing requirement. And yes to add equipment we had to put in more capital.


It was the operators who demonstrated to the Government that they, by using ever older and cheaper equipment, could operate the same service without subsidy that did those services in and the race to the bottom was on.

These fares today are actually lower in real dollar terms than they were then.

We live with this historical background noise to this day.

The rates whether charter or RPT have never recovered to the level at which they should be and we are and have been for the last 20 years :rolleyes: suffering from permanent "sticker shock". :eek:

Very few made the transition from FAR23 to FAR25 ops. The new CAO 20.7.1b refers at long last to SFAR41, but we are still about 15 years behind the US transport category policy on that.

The use of these SFAR41 types is in the US embargoed for new startups and replacement of existing fleet and sunset is fixed for 2010.
Australia has become a dumping ground for this obsolescent and uneconomic equipment.

My discussions have revealed a reluctance to take it to the appropriate level on the basis of cost. Well, some of us have just paid some of that price.

The regulation that they could not not offer a charter service over an RPT route more than a couple of times a month to protect the subsidised RPT operator was universally ignored.

It was the practise for these operators to work out their RPT rates as a seat function of the relevant charter rates plus a bit and plan services as a means of topping off charter utilisation rather than as a stand alone business exercise.
Very few understood the statistical black holes that would consume them at charter seat rates.
If they can't see their way on that then if there is a mining community nearby they will sell a FIFO service at the equivalent or less of the nearest RPT fare. What chance is there for the local community?

By definition RPT has to be more expensive than charter and it is only with Bras/SAAB type aircraft that the economics and stats can be made to work.

We insist that Telstra has a universal service obligation to the bush for social equity in communication, what happened to transport communication.

And yes this should be in the LHR thread.

Woomera where are we when we need you. :)

Aerotropics was not the operator in question. Don't confuse their wage structures (which are apparently sub par) and possible dubious marketing methods with the actual operator who was Transair. :confused: so at whom do the victims families shoot at then. On whose airline were they buying a airline ticket. I think it's called a cannon shot.

[Captain Starlight]

Mainframe and Stinkfinger

or anyone else who may have heard.

Any feedback from the Cairns Industry forum?

Did Batman and Robin appear? (love the new batmobile!)

Is there a new day dawning?

your comments, please?

CS

[Mainframe]

Stinkfinger

Settle down and be patient, there's still Townsville today.

These meetings are both a PR exercise and Market Research.
They cost a lot of money and because it is publicly funded,
a result can be expected,

When is the question, as well as what.

Please give B1 and NH credit for having the courage to face a very disillusioned group of stakeholders,
who expected a lot more from them.

They are not faceless bureaucrats,
they want to listen, and those affected have the chance to meet them face to face,
and express, in a civil manner, their disappointments and their satisfaction.

This is a Byron initiative that sets his leadership apart from all previous CASA regimes,
he is not a demigod,
and he's obviously not just talking the talk, it appears he is also willing to be a very good listener.

The industry is dying, and he is conscious of that.

MF

[Sunfish]

With the greatest of respect, I've heard about "industries dieing" before. I always take these pronouncements with a very large grain of salt.

On closer inspection, one usually finds that there are members of the industry concerned making money hand over fist, but keeping very very quiet about it. It's the less successful that complain. When you compare the two types of operators it becomes obvious that the poorer ones are badly managed or have either under, or over invested.

I think some hard data on operators would be needed to convince Government that GA was in fact "Dieing".

[Creampuff]

When you compare the two types of operators it becomes obvious that the poorer ones are badly managed or have either under, or over invested.No, no, no, no, no! It's all CASA's fault.

If CASA simply enforced the rules more (or was that less?) had more resources (or was that less?) tightened up the regulations (or was that loosen up the regulations?) focussed on education (or was that cured of its institutional timidity in enforcement?) became an economic regulator (or was that a safety regulator alone?) had a mandate to foster the industry (or was that no dual mandate?) made Airservices reduce the amount of controlled airspace (or was that increase the amount of controlled airspace?) was reintegrated with the air traffic control and services function and the Department (or was that separated from the service function and Department?) was subject to directions from the Minister (or was that independent of the political interference?) subsidised the industry (or was that let market forces prevail?) abolished the States (or was that get rid of the useless bureaucrats in Can'tberra?) made all pilots join a union and act in a united way (or was that keep out of industrial relations issues?) and well, you know, whatever, and just heeded the consistent messages from the experts in the industry, the skies would be abuzz with happy, profitable air operators.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

I thought it was a well conducted meeting with as much time as was needed to discuss issues that were considered important by the industry members that attended.

Minimal time was spent sabre rattling and giving policy speaches, well done to all.

There were a couple of anomolies identified, apparent "lost" NPRM responses to relevant CASR's, RCA's and their intented uses, CAR 35 approved repairs / modifications, Part 28 of the ACT, AOCM and others regarding CASA billing for AOC work.

This meeting is a huge indication of positive change, with the clear message to both CASA Staff and the Industry, " Get on the Bus, or Get Out ", sounds like a fair statement to me.

[Stink Finger]

I for one would agree Rock Chucker, some interesting issues came up and were not completely swept under the carpet, no liability was accepted but plenty of hurried writing in NH and AW note book.

To the young person that got up at the CS meeting to address a certain issue close to all our hearts, good on you.

BB's response clearly indicates he is quite aware of the allegations. Having used that very public event will provide you protection from revenge.

The claytons issue as identified by the Skehill Report is no longer deniable, that is very good.

BB, NH and company, well done for listening.

As we've seen by recent "Resource Re-allocations" in CB, BB has not to date tippy toe'd around difficult issues.

[Torres]

Word "on the street" is there may be a few - possibly two - farewell parties going on in CASA, Townsville.............

Or are the farwell parties at the end of the long service leave?

Sadly, Torres didn't get an invite!!! :mad:

[Tail_Wheel]

I believe you're too late for the first farewell party - I think that's over - but I hear you may be just in time for the second farewell party!!!!!

:} :} :} :}

[Stink Finger]

Oh my yes, there is two parties, the after after party will be the one to attend.

[Torres]

Stinky. Am I right in assuming the deed is done and the industry sponsored after, after party for the two - who will be very sadly missed - will be this weekend?

:p :ok:

[gaunty]

An earlier post on this thread.

There will be no heads on pikes at the entrance to the castle, but there will be a quiet sorting out.

There will be no "retribution" but there will be a quiet sorting out.

There will be no "vengeance", for whatever that is worth, but there will be a quiet sorting out.

Quietly and properly, the villains in whatever form will be rooted out.,

There is due process and there is the requirement for proper form.

If this is not followed then the pus and pain just gets worse.

I think it is time we trust those who have the responsibility, to act responsibly.


Can it be that surely, resolutely and professionally we all move forward ? :ok:

[Torres]

Yeah Gaunty. But can we have the farewell party first???

:E

[Stink Finger]

A bit of an update, which i feel is fantastic.

BB / AC, well done !!!!!!!!.

Ronalds equivalent in the Bicycle repair department has had his final day today.

Ronalds off on " Long Service Leave" next Friday.

RP is to be the Cairns based TLFO ( a blast from tha past ).

The Banjo Player will be "breakin-it-down banjo style" from sunny YBCS as of monday.

Well done indeed !!.

[Woomera]

I'm sure CASA's decisive action this past week has unanimous industry support and is to be applauded.

The clean up must continue, including a review of previous unjust decisions which have affected the careers and lives of many in the FNQ aviation industry. If they must be compensated for their damaged or lost careers and livelihood, so be it.........

Woomera

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Does this mean the prodicle FOI (CH) shall return from his two year break ?.

[Nipper]

Perhaps FOI HC will return from the SE Islands. :E

What now happens to Capt Rum etc.

Good on you AC & BB:O :O :ok:

[Mainframe]

Truth and Justice have prevailed.

BB, BG, NH, and especially the new boy, AC, well done!

Thank you for seeing this through. It has taken time, as Gaunty suggested it would,
it was very important to check and verify all information, and confirm the diagnosis before surgery.

Perhaps now the appropriate signal has been sent down through the ranks,
there is a reform process, either get on the bus, or get out.

Lets hope the momentum is sustained,
and it now appears that BB is the only CASA leader in the last two decades
able to achieve reform and change the culture.

The rest have been highly paid failures.

[Captain Starlight]

Mainframe

Don't start clapping until the performance is over.

We still need to hear that Pinnochio is now mowing lawns by day and delivering pizzas at night, both non aviation pursuits.

And the RFDS night specialist still needs to be counselled.

As for Mr Rum, who knows.

There is a new team, hopefully not yet contaminated by the misfits.

Now lets get on with addressing the safety issues in a peer to peer relationship, something like mutual consultation and mutual respect.

AC accords respect to the industry, and justifiably that respect is reciprocated.

Working together is the only way that safety can be improved in our region,
so let's give the new team trust, confidence and respect, as that is one way of ensuring we are treated likewise.

and yes, it appears that Truth and Justice did prevail.

CS

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Now that the doors are open, the first thing i'd like to see given some attention is the present CAR 206 " interpretation".

To Date CASA ( particularly OLC ) has gotten rather creative stating the use of registered travel agents is an acceptable method of the Shared Charter, blah blah blah.

Well CAR 206, in it present form needs to be either :

1. applied directly as per the many many many posts by Torres ( i.e what is written in the CAR ), subsequenlty many of the operators presently forced at gun point to be RPT would clearly not require to be RPT ,or

2. changed to suite the present CASA mindset.

Mail runs into and out of the Cape, Mount Isa etc etc, are not RPT, a fenced airstip in the middle of a farmers paddock in a Shrike / Baron / C402 is not in anyway consistent with the intent of RPT ( no direct comparison to QANTAS ).

Many of these runs do not meet all four requirements for RPT, Routes, Times, General Public, Fixed Terminals.

Is a Route a designated Route i.e. "W256" ( route designator ) ?,
Are Cattle Station Staff General Public ?, If you take tourists, how is this different to a Blue Mountains Scenic Flight.
Is a Fenced Paddock or a strip of grass at Murray Island a Fixed Terminal ?,

If it is RPT, should we be able to do it in aircraft that are not able to sufficently perform in an emergency to climb safely ( 1 percent to 5,000 ft, what a crock ) etc etc.

If it is RPT, then ensure the correct aircraft are on the routes, Twotter, King Air, but who will pay ?.

A Scenic Flight better meets the four requirements, much more readily than the Australia Post runs throughout Rural Australia.

[Spotlight]

LRT

It appears you have a basic understanding of the situation re Aust Post subsidised mail runs; but do you even know what barrow it is that you are pushing. Whats it to you? Making noise because you can it seems to me.

Confusing in your mind persons generally with general public does not change anything nor does referring to aircraft types in a juvenile manner.

Grow up get a hair cut and get a real job.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Spotlight,

For your information I have had quite alot to do with this.

"Confusing in your mind persons generally with general public does not change anything ", ???, ok, your point is ???, General Public "or" Public generally makes absolutley no difference.

A Scenic flight still better meets the four criteria.

In addition, CAR 206 has been in its present form for many many years, these mail runs were done 10 years ago in aircraft such as C182 / C210, why has it changed so much between then and now, and the same legislation is in place ?, any idea on that one Spotlight ?.

Aircraft were flying around the Torres Straits 10 years ago doing then in a C206 what is now done in an Islander ( not a bad upgrade in safety ), Incidently this all dramatically changed in 1999-2000, why the rapid change ?, but still the same CAR 206 is in place, then it was Charter, now it's RPT.

There are many differences in the way this reg has been applied, depending on which part of the country your are in, flowing down from this are issues such as CAAP 92 being accepted for this purpose by some area offices and not others ( the alternate method involves surveying these paddocks, at around $2,000 per strip ).

Notice that i suggest either operate as per the reg "or" change the reg to suit, that is hardly the statement of a person with a closed mind .

So to make it very easy for you to understand Spotlight, Either accept that these runs are not RPT or Make the Reg suit. Be carefull in doing so, DOTARS / Australia Post and the Station Staff would not be able to afford this RPT banner to be applied in it entirety, for example, paying for a seat if the run was operated by a Twin Otter with 2 Crew ( the seat prices would far more than double ).

The travelling public ( perhaps read RPT passengers ) are supposed to be afforded the absolute highest level of protection, which is exactly the way CASA is gearing at presesnt, These Mail Runs are stuck in the middle somewhere, in most part by "Interpretive" law, would it be easier if it was clear and concise from it's legislative head of power?.

Everyone one here is pushing a barrow, which barrow are you pushing and why so abusive ?.

[Spotlight]

LRT

Again, whats it to you. What do you care? Are you a station owner concerned about staff travel, an owner of an AOC planning to tender, a local member raising matters of concern to your constituents. Obviously not!

So why all the verbiage? Bullsh!t baffles brains works if you are selling washing machines. Arguments at the level you make are downright insulting.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Spotlight,

Like most people on this thread, have had to deal with inconsistent " interpretation" of this Regulation, at great expense to the us, the operator.

As you've answered none of my questions, i'd suggest what you have to offer on this topic, is of no interest, i am underwhelmed by your input, good bye.

[Spotlight]

LRT

'Great expense to us, the operator'.

What! the Royal us? You Walter Mitty yourself into a person of means do you? What has it cost you?

Twaddle, all twaddle.


Time you cooled off for a few days!!

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Woomera

[Stink Finger]

Well done Woomera !!!.

LHR, I know not what you did to rattle spotlights cage.

In most part I would agree, there have been some amazing interpretations, then Re-interpretations of relatively simple legislation, at a great cost to many operators for no discernable increase in safety.

Simple Legislation, CAR206, IMHO does not fall into that category, the definition section ( CAR 1 ), seems to be sadly wanting, much to the glee of many we have spoken about in the past 210 posts.

[Torres]

Stinky. Around 1999 from memory, the then Cape York mail service was not permitted to carry passengers as the service was deemed by CASA to be an RPT service in accordance with CAR206(1)(c). Many passengers were inconvenienced for some weeks whilst the operator obtained an RPT AOC - at very significant cost.

Today I understand the service is deemed by CASA to be a charter service in accordance with CAR206(1)(b) as the service is not available to "persons generally", only Cape York station employees.

Inexplicable.............! :{

[Spotlight]

"Am I on the air, hello, hello, oh there we go!"

Thanks Torres. LRT, aka Stinkfinger (charming), any clearer now?

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Spotlight,

Wow, a day late and a dollar short, again.:ok:

[Stink Finger]

LHR,

I think GC has turned up with a knife to a gun fight.

GC, i dont think LHR was around when "Zappa" was in vogue ( i am sure you would remember that era - hence "Stink Finger" ).

What is your interest in said topic, surely you should be able to understand the "basics" of the argument. Hhmmmm. But of course i know you do not.

Where was it you did your ATPL.

Quote"You Walter Mitty yourself into a person of means do you?".

Good guess, but sorry, try again.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

GC ???.

Care to elaborate ?.

[Spotlight]

Well readers, I trust some indulgence has been afforded to my little experiment in psychoanalysis

The fact that LRT was posting under several nomme de plume's was obvious quite some time ago.

Why, one asks one self would a person do this? In particular he has at the very least slandered several people.

An indication of the confusion LRT and Stinkfinger (charming) have with their identities are the previous posts.

Stinkfinger (charming) responds to a post addressed to LRT with Quote "You Walter Mitty yourself into a person of means do you."

' Good guess
try again.'

That is the one! That is the one that will get you every time you fool. PPrune has caught a number of people in the same way.

[Stink Finger]

Answering a post for LHR, no, more commenting on the fact that you Walter Mitty yourself into a person of means. Trolley Dolly to Captain in just two easy steps.

You have stated you are a pilot, Fly for JAYROW etc etc. We both know thats not true, fly a desk perhaps, hang out with pilots.

You've never actually been an operational pilot, and lack any knowledge pertaining to the issue discussed by Myself, Torres and LHR.

So think what you will, good on you.

How is Mount Isa these days ?, who's the fool ?.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Well Spotlight,

There is and has been absolutely no secret as to who i am.

Your suggestion that i am also another guise is of no concern to me.

I have publicly stated in a CASA / Industry meeting, to Mr Byron ( and esteemed company ) a month ago exactly what i have talked of here, in apparent ananimity.

Just about all posters from this topic were in the room and the topic of my concern was embodied not three seats away.

Lets draw on some more of your logic:

1. Spotlights digs alittle a Me a few posts a go, Spotlight has a little holiday, thanks Woomera , so i must be Woomera as well.:O

2. Stinky gets involved in a conversation the he/she states " more commenting on the fact that you Walter Mitty yourself into a person of means."

personal note: i think Stinky may be quite wrong (GC).

3. That me, Stinky, Captain Starlight, Mainframe, Torres ( and a list of others ) agree with each other on a certain topic, they must all be the same person.

I am really bored with this, hey i'll even let you accuse me of being Winstun, why not.

If anybody has an axe to grind with Winstun, abuse me, i'm good for it.

Spotlight, good bye, to the ignore list for you my friend.

[Spotlight]

Well! Hopefully thats done and dusted then. I must say, LRT et al you have made a fair fist of exposing your paranoia, tortured syntax and overall nuttiness.

Anyway, off to try and find Mount Isa on a map.

[Stink Finger]

Spotlight,

I was not aware Mills and Boon had written a paper on "psychoanalysis".

This has been a good laugh, slander you say, Bahhh hahhhh, good one.

Rock Chucker, it is GC.

I really could not be bothered. Cleaning out my grease trap is more stimulating than listening to this tripe. :zzz:

[Nipper]

Woomera

Could I suggest that you remove the posts by LRT et al and allow this post to return to what it originally was put here for? :*

[Captain Starlight]

This thread grew from another thread, the common theme was the rogue element of CASA,
particularly as it manifested itself under certain (and now extinguished) regimes in Townsville.

The CASA misconduct took many forms,

some of which included the bastardisation of it's own staff,

the malicious and vindictive vendettas perpetrated against some operators and some individual pilots,

and the constantly displayed penchant for interpreting the CAR's, CAO's and CASA Policy to support some of the agendas,

even if this meant misleading the Director of CASA, OLC, Area Managers and Delegates.

It is my guess that LHRT's divergence in this thread was occasioned by the last aberration of the now extinguished regime,
which was the inconsistent and misleading interpretation of the rules to suit a particular agenda.

Numerous documented examples of manipulation and distortion of the rules over a long period
will be exposed at the possibly imminent Royal Commission or Judicial Inquiry, whichever is decreed.

Now, back to the NQ area office:

So far only two of the five misfits have been terminated.
The job is not yet finished.

The compulsive prevaricator, aka "Pinnochio",
is still to be brought to account for his enthusiastic commitment to rogue activities.

The RFDS specialist (with the night flying phobia) still awaits counselling and a commitment to behave.

Mr Rum may also respond to counselling.

BB, NH, AC have taken things seriously and this office (Townsville) is on the way to be cleaned up,
however, the job is not yet finished.

BB and NH, cast your eyes to the West and note the similarity of the misconduct perpetrated against an operator over there.

Then look at Moorabbin, Bankstown, Tamworth and Archerfield.

There is still work to be done to restore CASA's respectability and to wrest control from the rogue element that exists within.

CS.

[Mainframe]

Capt S, can I start clapping yet?

Still waiting for the party, when is it being held? and where?

Pleased with the results so far on the cleanup, let's hope it continues to it's logical conclusion.

Stinky and LHRT, maintain the rage, don't rest yet, ther's work to be done as stated by Capt S and farewells yet to be said.

[Woomera]

Spotlight

Anonymity is fundamental policy of PPRuNe. We rigorously protect the identities of our registered users.

The wild assumptions you made with respect to multiple identities are incorrect and may well prove damaging to those users. Additionally, you definitely are not and never will be Woomera.

The penalty for “outing” another user is removal of your access to any PPRuNe forum. Your last warning, you’ve used your last chance, cool down and grow up – or you’re out of here. Permanently!

Woomera

[Spotlight]

Well thats certainly an odd reaction to whats 'actually' been posted!

[Woomera]

The thread topic is:

CASA reply to PPRuNe email re TVL

Whilst Spotlight meditates for the next four days, any posts not related to the topic will be removed.

Woomera


P.S. If you "have a question for Woomera" unrelated to the topic, email or PM me. Thanks!

[Mainframe]

Woomera,

This thread has served it's purpose well.

CASA have responded by starting to put their house in order,
including the required career changes for some of those who do not support BB's reform process.

CASA's response was slow but measured, as Gaunty suggested it would be.

CASA now need to change their selection criteria to no longer support

"a verifiable record of industry or military career failure would be highly regarded"

Implementing better background checking for CASA aspirants should reduce the probability of rogue conduct in the future.

[Captain Starlight]

Mainframe, Gaunty and Woomera

Yes, the housecleaning is going fine.

Rumour has it that 4 or five of the rogues have contemplated the meaning of life and departed either CASA or the region.

Unfortunately they weren't drummed out of the regiment in shame, but at least they've gone.

The "new" area manager is now quite definitely the area manager, having survived the tribal council.

We can drop the adjective "new", and we can look forward to the refreshingly honest,
ethical and approachable character that he has emerged as.

He has recruited good staff to replace the misfits.

They are of good character and have good solid backgrounds.

Byron can take note of what has been achieved in what was until recently the most dysfunctional CASA office.

It is not only a blue print for the reform that BB wanted,
it carries a warning to the rogue element still hiding amongst the professionals in CASA.

To the rogues hiding in WA, in Archerfield, in Bankstown.

It's time to get off the bus.

To the many in CASA who have acted under duress of the rogues, take heart, you can soon return to ethical behaviour.

In closing, only two negatives,
1: Pinnochio still survives,

and

2: A man of the Calibre of the Area Manager must unfortunately be noticed and promoted.

If that happens, let's hope that his vision and style are maintained in his replacement.

Woomera and Danny, this forum has achieved much and helped BB implement the changes needed before CASA imploded.

Well done.

CS

[Mainframe]

CS

Well done, again, to B1,B2,NH and AC. And Pprune.

Surprised that Pinnochio is still on the scene, my sources indicated that he followed the rest of the departing misfits.

Maybe he'll seek indemnity when the AFP, as rumoured, start laying criminal charges amongst the misfits.

Stinkfinger, can you confirm that Pinnochio has been slow to leave? or is in fact intending to remain?

Has the Night Specialist been counselled and had his integrity restored?
(I guess that would be like restoring virginity, which, like integrity, once lost, is gone forever.)

The new day dawning is going to be uncomfortable for a few other area offices, but welcomed by the professionals in CASA.

[Woomera]

And although Mr Paul Phelan is too modest to draw attention to himself, it should not go unnoticed that he also has been quietly hammering away :} at this and other issues he feels need addressing.
His skill in collating and crafting the literary equivalent of a heavy blunt instrument on this particular one, may have had the effect of concentrating attention and providing the right atmosphere for the escalation of actions already in progress.

PPRuNe in and of itself cannot on its own "do" anything beyond provide an arena for your news, views and rumour. Ultimately it requires the actions of individuals to carry the argument directly to the affected body.

PPRuNe through its moderators may on the rare occasion offer an "open letter" that collates "information" described here by PPRuNers and in PMs not published, where it thinks there may be a warrantable issue.
These "open letters" are carefully thought out and discussed at all levels of PPRuNe admin before publishing and will always post the responses should they be received.

Well done, again, to B1,B2,NH and AC. And Pprune and the other individuals who literally stuck their neck out and/or head above the parapet

[Mainframe]

Woomera

Didn't want to draw too much attention to Paul, the Don Chipp ("We'll keep the batards honest").

When the Royal commission or Judicial inquiry gets underway, his meticulous chronology of CASA misconduct
will be more than enough evidence to whet their appetite.

Whilst this forum has exposed the misconduct and criminal actions
in support of that misconduct emanating from the Townsville / Cairns office,

the "Phelan Papers" detail the similar patterns and long history of misconduct of other area offices as well.

Likewise the legal firm of Wollerman Shacklock and their emminent QC John Langmead
can provide any inquiry or commission with volumes of evidence.

This firm specialises in CASA misconduct
and BB's reforms will severely impact their bottom line as gradually the reforms are implemented.

Regrettably, CASA's retained legal firm of Malleson Stephens Jaques and their emminent QC, Skehill will also suffer
a decline in business. ( providing tailored reports to cover up CASA staff misconduct.)

It must be deeply disturbing for BB and NH to grasp the magnitude of what was endorsed CASA misconduct
when they took up their respective roles.

To their credit, they are actually doing something about the problem,
something their predecessors procrastinated about and always tried to avoid rectifying.

Any inquiry will clear them of any ineptitude or corruption, based on the initiatives they have already set in place to clean up CASA.

BB and NH are not just rhetoric, they listen, analyze, evaluate and act.

I've said it before, if you have a genuine grievance or knowledge of misconduct,
and you have reasonable evidence to substantiate it,
write to Nicola Hinder or email her at the adress shown on CASA's web page.

Be assured that BB and NH are committed to getting their house in order,
and they don't tolerate staff who embarrass them with their misconduct.

Be factual, be clinical and avoid being emotive, do your homework, collate your facts before writing.

With the exception of the Townsville office which is no longer an embarrassment,
avoid contacting your area manager unless you know personally that he / she is totally ethical.

The filter process, the coverups, the sidesteps are the stock in trade of the rogue element.

They will always "circle the wagons" and defend their own,
simultaneously preventing messengers getting out with a message to headquarters.

We can all help BB achieve the reform he is committed to, so use the process that NH has provided.

[Woomera]

Mainframe thanks for that and the sage advice reinforcing my comments.

I am sure CASA continue as they have in the past to keep an eye on what comes and goes here and as a result get an early heads up on contentious matters.
In the past that may have been a signal for some to run for cover and may have inhibited comment here.
Methinks and mehopes there is no longer any cover and that the inihibition is no longer so.

By all means discuss and test your take on issues you feel need attention here on PPRune, we are all working towards the goal, even when we disagree with each other or have alternative points of view, but in the end the chapter and verse has to go direct to NH or the BBs if effective action is to be taken.

Be factual, be clinical and avoid being emotive, do your homework, collate your facts before writing

PPRuNe in other parts of the world has an equally long and proud history of advancing aviation by this process of free and open discussion, anonymously if that what it takes and has become as a result, one of the most respected safety portals in the world, by the contributions that ALL PPRuNers make by their participation in their PPRuNe.

[Woomera]

I have a feeling this thread could get interesting again.........!!!

I hear the leave will shortly end! But will he take the hint????

:E

Woomera

[Captain Starlight]

Woomera

Yes, interesting things are rumoured.

Let's hope B1 and B2 sustain the momentum,
although they appear to have missed a gear and are sitting in neutral.

Or maybe they are waiting at a set of lights for the green one.

They have the information, but appear to need a shot of testosterone to use it.

Is there, lurking in the corridors of power, one who has the dirt on someone?

Stay tuned, this could , as you say, get interesting.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Gents, no offence, but the way i see it quite alot has happened. All of a very positive nature.

What do you expect to see happen ?.

Note: I am all for not being Bullied and being able to pick up the phone and get an honest answer, and i have been getting exactly that of late.

Other than perhaps trying Malfeasance / Bullying claims against individuals ( who happen / happened to work for CASA ), I think CASA is somewhat out of the lime light.

They were asked to look at certain problems, which they did, and subsequently took action, so it would appear. Problem solved.

Royal Commision, Pigs Bollocks.

Look what happened to the Queensland Health issues recently.

[Mainframe]

LEFTHANDED ROCK THROWER

I agree with you

refer my earlier post:

QUOTE:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It must be deeply disturbing for BB and NH to grasp the magnitude of what was endorsed CASA misconduct
when they took up their respective roles.

To their credit, they are actually doing something about the problem,
something their predecessors procrastinated about and always tried to avoid rectifying.

Any inquiry will clear them of any ineptitude or corruption, based on the initiatives they have already set in place to clean up CASA.

BB and NH are not just rhetoric, they listen, analyze, evaluate and act."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes things are happening, and it is noticeable.


Captain Starlight

surely you'e seen the changes happening, the new faces appearing, the old ones (except a couple) disappearing.

And like the Qld Health issue, looks like the're leaving on First Class tickets also.

Suggest you dig deep and ascertain that the changes are real.

As for judicial or disciplinary action, it will happen, relax.

Remember that we might not hear about it, and it may take time for the processes to be fully activated and completed.

Byron has seen how Amanda Vanstone was let down by her underlings, as was the Qld Premier and his Health Minister.

Warren Truss would not want to learn that Byron has not acted, nor is he likely to. There has and will be action.

Be Patient.

Truth and Justice have a long history of ultimately prevailing.

MF.

[185skywagon]

Looks like someone in upper management is out to get BB. See article in todays Qld Sunday Mail.

[Stink Finger]

You must be talking about: http://www.thesundaymail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,16854304%255E903,00.html

I say good on B1 for working from home, i am certain he is still able to do a majority of his work there. Infact I've been able to achieve a great deal more from my work day from the quiet of my home office.

Too many men, especially in Aviation, put their job far and above their family, that is stupid, good on you B1. I wish our industry was more aware of the importance of family.

As to what has been alluded to above, I hope "the organisation" has the balls to make a name for themselves ( i.e. Malfeasance / Bullying Charges). ( edited for spelling mistakes, too many reds last night )

[gaunty]

It's all over the Murdoch press.

So what!

He's the CEO and a very comptetent one, doesn't matter where his office is nowadays with the internet ands comms we have it really doesn't matter.

The scenario as described could happen any time anywhere, where the CEO, Minister or the PM is at the time is equally random.

Bush was in Texas reading to kids.

I any event Bruce Gemmel is the Operating Officer and the person responsible for the day to day nuts and bolts and very competent as well.

So what does every one want, an office bound Director who's never seen by the rank and file and operators or someone out there actually engaging in dialogue. Either way someone will decide fro their own agenda they should be doing the opposite of what they are.:mad:

[Captain Starlight]

185 Skywagon

my last post, quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Is there, lurking in the corridors of power, one who has the dirt on someone? "
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

rumour has it that B1's reforms are not sitting well with the subculture.

Stinkfinger and Gaunty, agree with you, his workplace doesn't matter, as long as he works, and effectively.

B1 has work to do, and it can be done from home, frm his frequent field trips where he is meeting his customers,
or even when he's in Melbourne or Canberra.

He can initiate the sackings, the investigations leading to charges,
the cleansing of CASA, from any of his preferred workplaces.

This is 2005, not 1965, mobile phones, laptops, the internet are the tools of communication.

I guess a bit more time in Canberra might have helped identify some of the subculture, or maybe not.

Let's hope he finishes what he started before he is replaced with a neophyte, innocent and unaware of the power within.

Mainframe, don't clap too loud or too long, the job's not finished yet.

CS

[gaunty]

Captain Starlight

There is a little thing called "capture" which is a natural result of being in the middle of things in the day to day hurly burly.

It's a perfectly natural human condition to which we are all prone and which we practise daily on each other when we are in constant contact.

It is much easier to see the real picture from afar and keep a clear view of what people are actually doing as distinct from what they say they are.

Given the task Mr Byron has in front of him, which will inevitably involve some unpleasantness, the more detached he can stay the easier it will be.

The Navies of the first world know very well the problems of "capture" that can face the Capt of a ship, an isolated commnunity, from which whilst at once being a part of the crew, he is also effectively isolated from them by fairly strict protocols and rules of behaviour.

All the pop psychology and "modern management" techniques in the world is not going to change that.

[Captain Starlight]

Gaunty, touche (fr; too-shey)

Well put.

The Canberra uprisings earlier this year were observed from Melbourne, a trip to Canberra administered the executions.

I have no doubt that the B1 sees more than he would like,
his problem, on a salary of $40,000 per month, plus expenses,
is deciding what, if any, action to take.

The record, and this thread, will establish that B1 was well informed of the Townsville problem, at least two years ago,
but chose to initially have the accused investigate themselves, with the predictable conclusion.

Subsequently, the Skehill report again cleared the offenders, ignoring the overwhelming evidence available to the contrary.

How all of this could be explained in a Judicial Inquiry would be a challenge even for Richard Nixon and his Watergate cohorts.

B1 now needs to earn the $40,000 / month, and take the decisive action that should have been taken two years and millions of dollars ago.

That sort of salary is not intended for procrastinators, it is for effective executives.

B1, sharpen the sword, there's work to be done.

[Sunfish]

Good Luck to Mr. Byron!

Public Servants often have a difficult time deciding who their "customers" are. Group one: For them, the customer is the Minister and they regard a posting away from Canberra and closer to the general public as a demotion (I kid you not!).

For the good ones, group two, the customer is the industry or group of people they are actually responsible for, and they try and see as much of them as they can and regard trips to Canberra as time wasted.

I would suggest Mr. Byron falls into this second group, thank goodness.

Furthermore, there is one thing that the Canberra based group one bureaucrats absolutely hate with a consuming passion, it is an absolutely devastating arguing tactic used by members of group two, for which they have no defence.........

It's when someone gets up at a meeting and says "I've consulted with the industry at length and they consider your proposal is unworkable, if you would like that in writing from members of the industry I can easily provide it."

I think we can regard the travel cost story in the Murdoch press as evidence that Mr. Byron is doing the right thing and the bad guys are hurting.

[Captain Starlight]

Sunfish,

Totally agree, BB has started on a tough job,
it would be disastrous for him to be undermined by the bad guys before he can get to them.

Nothing would suit the bad guys more than having another new and naive leader that they could initially control.

BB, there's still work to be done, get on with it before they oust you instead.

There is great merit not being in Canberra, on the inside looking out.

Being out of Canberra means that the advantage of being on the outside looking in is Byron's.

As was demonstrated by the attempted Canberra coup after a Melbourne meeting earlier this year.

BB, keep the sackings going till you clean out the rot, as you will.

Better still, sack the whole lot.

Then start from afresh, inviting all to re apply for their jobs and only selecting those of good repute.
It's been successfully done elsewhere, bite the bullet!

There's been a few long service leave taker's lately,
encourage a few more to do likewise, or encourage them to take redundancy.

[Mainframe]

Sunfish and Starlight,

Want to take bets that the "bad guys" will win??

Things are not so cosy in the camp, the undermining will continue unabated until he is rolled.

The Status Quo must be preserved at all costs.

To hell with reform, Goodbye B1, welcome, as Starlight suggests, the new and naive successor.

[bushy]

I like what BB is saying, and I hope he does not get rolled.
They have recruited some real aviators in recent times. Some of them have actually had experience outside the "J curve"
The signs are good, and I hope he can make it work.

[Stink Finger]

Ronalds resignation was effective a couple of weeks ago, so that era is over.

It would also appear that the prodicle FOI may return, lets call him " Danny Deck Chair ", he is a well respected individual and would be an asset to CASA to be back on the job.

BB has done exactly what i feel he should have, to those that will persue legal action against one of CASA's now ex-employee's, I and many other wish you well with that endeavour.

Regarding the bad press BB was receiving over his work arrangements, Gaunty hit the nail on the head, " Capture", also being in a forecasting roll as opposed to damage control, which should have been the methods employed by prior CASA CEO types.

As to the others mentioned here, the hangman is still very much in the workplace.

[Captain Starlight]

Stinkfinger,
Good to see you back and thanks for the update.


I think we all wish BB well and expect him to continue and finish that which he has started.

Yes, heard that the resignations were underway, sorry to see an unexpected one though (the naval aviator).

I guess the stress of compromising his unquestionably ethical character to suit the misfit
eventually overwhelmed him. Or maybe disgust got the better of him.
He was fair and there appears to be no record of malice or misconduct by him. Sorry to see him go.

It is quite disturbing that Pinnochio is still around.

He will be rolled when the external inquiry gets underway,
sufficient evidence exists to suggest to him it's time to move on now to avoid being an embarrassment to CASA later on.

Bushy

Yes, the new boys have solid backgrounds and it appears that the usual selection criteria,
" A verifiable history of either Industry or Military career failure would be highly regarded"
has, in their case, been waived .

AC is very much in charge and hands on.

Let's hope Pinnochio doesn't mislead him too much, but I guess AC has placed him on a short lead anyway.

Mainframe

I think you'll find B1 is not really out of touch, just waiting to nail a few more in the correct manner at the correct time.

I do agree however, that nothing would suit the bad guys better than to have him move on and to have a new boy.

B1 is getting too close for comfort with some.

CS

[gaunty]

S l o w l y, s l o w l y, catch the monkey and nail em for good. :ok:

[Mainframe]

Gaunty,

Yes, that strategy will work, but! He needs to survive long enough to implement it.

Today is a good day for a bet. I bet that that the bad guys will roll him, because their very survival depends upon it.


Capt Starlight

See above.


Pinnochio's survival is very worrying and supports the odds that the bad guys are winning.

[Captain Starlight]

Stinkfinger

Another source has also rumoured the return of the Prodigal.

As Ronald and the Prodigal are mutually exclusive,
Ronald's rumoured departure (not yet confirmed, but highly probable) would be necessary.

Looks like the Cairns branch of the Townsville Office will be well stocked with credible and respected FOI's,
with the glaring exception of the Night Specialist.

Many are of the opinion that the Night Specialist, with the removal of Ronald,
will succumb to peer group examples of how to regulate in a professional manner.
He is, after all, rumoured to be capable of good behaviour at times.

Mainframe, what is the time frame for your bet? End of the year?
or just eventually?

[Captain Starlight]

Mainframe

with about a week to go I think you've lost your bet.

B1 and B2 are still at the helm, and more heads have rolled, with more rumoured to come.

It appears that NH, to whom this thread is dedicated,
may be out of CASA.

Check the CASA website, complaints link. She's gone !

Disturbingly, the sorcerer's apprentice, Pinnochio, survives despite his proven and continuing record of misconduct.

AC survives and all wish him well, and hope that he continues breaking tradition by inducting qualified and ethical FOI's.

2006 will see some welcome changes as more of the rogue element will be invited to walk the plank.

[Mainframe]

Mr Starlight and Gaunty,

This is one bet I don't mind losing.

B1 is needed to finish what he has started. He has observed and assessed and finally acted.

Keep swinging B1, or they'll get you when you relax.

Yes Gaunty, you were right, slowly slowly etc.

Stinkfinger, any idea what happened to NH? and why?

[Captain Starlight]

As predicted, and supporterd by an unconfirmed rumour, someone who needed to do so a long time ago,
yesterday was asked to walk the plank.

When the Identity is known, (Check the website for heads of sections early next year), no one will be surprised, and many will be delighted.

B1 and B2, keep at it, you're finally finding them, don't stop now, start the New Year with a few less handicaps.

[Woomera]

Check your information again Captain. As at this morning he is only on normal annual leave. Nice thought .... but incorrect I'm told.

The mind boggles .... you heard it first on PPRuNe!! AC moving to Brisbane as Manager, GA Operations under RC.

Now who is will be at the helm of FNQ office? And .... nah, won't go there....... :E

Woomera

[Captain Starlight]

Woomera, thanks, but wait till next year.

Remember, None of the misfits have actually been sacked,
all have been asked to go away on leave, burn it all up, then come back with a signed resignation.

This is done to maximise their Superannuation payment by around $20,000 extra, typically.

While it's nice to see them go,
this method merely condones the misconduct and does not send the right message to potential misfits.

A few proper sackings, publicised, making them accountable for their misconduct, may send a clearer message.

Good news for AC, the "New Area Manager", bad news for NQld.
Unless they've cloned him !
His task was onerous, fix the most dysfunctional office in Australia.

He achieved that and is now destined for greater things, deservedly. No fool, but a gentleman, firm and fair.

[Stink Finger]

Golden hand shake ?, good one !!.

[Mainframe]

Hi Stinky,

Golden handshake it seems.

Offenders caught out,instead of facing termination, simply allowed to "go on leave" and consider their future.

This exit method provides approx $25,000 of extra super above what they would have received if sacked.

The moral of the story is "Don't get caught, and if you do, no worries, we'll look after you".

This amounts to blatant condoning of misconduct in lieu of punishing offenders.

On another note, there is an unsubstantiated rumour that the Townsville office will be closed,
and some staff relocated back to the hub of GA activity, Cairns.

GA in Townsville is currently almost non existent.

Rumour has it that one of the FOI's recently sold his house in Cairns and bought in Townsville,
now has to sell in Townsville and buy back in Cairns.

If the Townsville office rumour proves to have substance, looks like problems has been properly fixed at last.

Yes, slowly, slowly it's happening, and it appears I lose my bet on the survival odds of B1.

He's actually beating them !