Bush to attack Iran & Syria - Problems for us in the Middle East

[Skyg]

Hello Guys,

For all of you working in the Middle East, and surroundings, or better to say for those of you that are planning to come here to work...

Apart from the condition about the Second Officer plan this or that or whatever condition of any other airline proposal, I don't know if any of you is in the subject, but Mr. Bush :yuk: , is planning very seriously to attack IRAN & SYRIA in the very near future...

I've passed already through the situation of being here for the last Iraki War, and im telling you guys, if this happens we'll be into trouble... I think we'll have to flee for some time or take a premature action on this subject...

Iran, is quite Powerful, and its territorial waters are just few miles away from countries like Qatar and Bahrain, where the U.S. has bases and cooperation programs... just think that they still have Nuclear development around, and their anti US-British Fanatism is outstanding ...

I'd like to hear any feedback from you guys, the ones working in Airlines here in the Gulf, to see what's the general opinion about this subject...

I Hope Ev'thing will end up as just a plan, the same I was hoping before the latest campaign .... :\

Please post some feedback on this. I think the Bush administration is very serious about this matter, and they will start their operation on June 2005.

Just take this into consideration before coming here. And guys,the ones we're around specially Bahrain, UAE and Qatar, let's think what to do in case it happens!...

See you, and Great Flights.

Skyg. (very much worried and concerned about this matter)
:(

[BlueEagle]

What Skyg quotes is the unsubstantiated and strongly denied opinions of a journalist who wrote a piece for the New Yorker Magazine,
the State Department have dismissed the piece as nonsense, you can read more here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4182365.stm) .

[Wiley]

Skyg, Seymour Hersh (sp?) could quite accurately report that the US has plans to attack virtually every country in the world.

The operative word in that statement is 'plans'.

There are quite a large number of staff officers sitting in the Pentagon who do nothing else but update the plans the US has to attack every country from Aardvarkia to Zululand.

A miniscule fraction of one percent of those plans might one day be put into use... in operations covering everything from a classic Normandy-style invasion to employing their armed forces quickly and effectively in something like tsunami relief operations.

It's what superpowers do - and have always done. They've just brought in legislation allowing the common man to see what the British Government was up to sixty years ago. Take a look and you'll see the HMG did exactly the same thing way back then - when it had armed forces big enough to use in such operations.

Mr Hersh would be among the first to print a 'shock! horror!' expose of Pentagon unpreparedness should the US ever find itself embroiled in a war they had not drawn up plans to cover.

As for your comment...and they will start their operation on June 2005Given the many uncertainties in this part of the world and what can only be called the reckless brinkmanship being practised by the current Iranian government over Iraq and nuclear weapons development, I'd certainly be very slow to tell you there's no way a war will start between the US and Iran in June 2005. However, I think I could safely say that it's very unlikely the Americans would choose to start it in June 2005 - or any other year - in the Arabian Gulf region, if only because of the weather.

[Skyg]

Hello Guys,

Thanks for the very much for the very objective and thought in advance answers...

I do really consider, this guy seymour Hersh quite in the field of the extremism, even though i think his investigations might lead to some of the future reality ...

Do any of you believe a word of what the CIA, White house, or any minister of that "badly famed" government declare... ?

I can not anymore. And I think the head of its government is quite irresponsible.

Therefore, the objective of my post, was actually to wonder what would be the consequence of this disaster in the ever fast growing aviation business in the middle east.

Let's take into consideration that the "conflict" itself will not be anymore at 1000 kms away from DOH, BAH or DXB, but just few miles away crossing the gulf.

Well I really hope this guy is not right at all.

Thanx and good flights.

Skyg :ok:

[scanscanscan]

No need to worry for the Brits........ Prior to the first Gulf War the the Norfolk regiment gave us each a gas mask.
Got mine issued at the British Club.
I asked why they all had a blob of blue paint on them..... Answer... Shows civilian casualty, SIR!!
Problem is nobody has told me to take it off yet!
Makes you wonder??
:suspect:

[Tristar]

The Americans gave all sorts of help, equipment, intelligence and diverted a lot of the gulf countries money to Sadam in the hope that the Iraqis with what they called 4th largest fire power in the world (then) to destroy Iran, and that was at the time when the Iranians where at their weakest having just suffered a massive bloody revolution; as we all know that war lasted for eight long years and eventually the Iraqis had to beg the Iranians to stop the war in the fear that the Iranians would eventually take over the whole of Iraq. Now the Americans with the help of few other countries can not control Iraq at its weakest.
I could go on and on and on, but the moral of the story is no matter how stupid you think Mr. Bush is, I don’t think he is that stupid to even dare consider to attack Iran with their current fire power and self sufficiency in food energy natural resources not forgetting that the Iranian forces had recently experienced hands on war (battle trained).
But I’ll finish of by saying it will not be the first time the Americans miss calculated!! ??!!
:sad:

[Skyg]

Guys,

Unluckily Condolezza Rice, and Mr. Bush, thy said "officially" that the priority for next administration is freedom, freedom and more freedom...

Therefore, Iran was named as priority in the list.... for FREEDOM!....

So, i suppose this guy was on the right track...

Ok, if that happens, i don't know what is gonna happen here in the golf countries, now even in the world it self!... this can be very bad gentlemen ...

I suppose, Emirates, Qatar Airways, Gulf Air, Etihad etc will have to move for the time the hostilities go on to some other safer area, as Kuwait Airways did during the IRAQI - US Wars...

Hope nothing like this take place, but be alert on that subject.

See you.

:(

[mutt]

Bush may be stupid but he isnt THAT stupid.........

Mutt.

[Skyg]

I hope so.

:uhoh:

[crazy_max]

Mutt, really?
Who are you trying to convince? Us or yourself?
Of course he is, and all of you guys that voted for him know it, and that is why you voted for him.
Freedom is code for OIL. Duh.

[mutt]

Who are you trying to convince? Us or yourself?

Myself of course.... :):)

that is why you voted for him

Not I.... wrong passport :):)

If its all about OIL, it would be much easier for the USA to take over the Wahabi desert than Syria or Iran.

Mutt.

[Earl]

Crazy_max,
If Bush were to attack Iran it would be a concern for all of us living and working in the middle east.
I dont see this happening, the area is too unstable as it is.
I did vote for Bush as most expats working abroad did, even though we disagree with some of his actions.
We had very little to choose from.
Kerry would have been even worse.
I have a home in Turkey where oil prices are already high.
So oil had nothing to do with it.
Lets all hope that these fanatics go away so we can live and work, spend qauility time with our families and retire at a ripe old age.

[Muttley Crew]

The US has too much on their plate for now.

They'll leave Iran for the jews. They seem to be the nuke reactor-bombing experts around here.

[FlyingCroc]

January 26, 2005
Wake Up! Bush Is Serious
by Paul Craig Roberts

Readers in numbers beyond my ability to reply individually have challenged me whether President Bush's inaugural speech is a statement of his intentions or merely a celebration of himself and American democracy. Surely Bush doesn't believe America has the power to remake the world in its own image other than by being an example for others to follow?

The answer is that it doesn't matter whether Bush believes, or even understands, what he said. The neoconservatives believe it, and they control the Bush administration.

On the heels of Bush's speech, neocon Robert Kagan used his column in the Washington Post to set Bush's inaugural speech in stone as U.S. foreign policy. Kagan wrote: "The goal of American foreign policy is now to spread democracy, for its own sake, for reasons that transcend specific threats. In short, Bush has unmoored his foreign policy from the war on terrorism."

This is precisely the goal of the neocons. It is why the neocons orchestrated "intelligence" and propaganda in order to bring about the invasion of Iraq, a country whose secular ruler suppressed terrorism. The neocons' writings clearly state their goal and long predate the Sept. 11 attacks on the U.S. Their agenda is independent of "the war on terror." Many of those who signed the neocon strategy documents hold presidential appointments in the Bush administration and are the administration's most powerful members.

If Bush were in control or had a brain, he would have shut Cheney up and fired all the neocons who produced the Iraqi disaster. Instead, despite the Iraqi mess, the Bush administration is publicly threatening to attack Iran, a country that has committed no terrorist or aggressive act toward the U.S. The Pentagon has been ordered to prepare plans. Apparently, the U.S. has already inserted special forces into Iran to gather intelligence.

The neoconservatives are Jacobins. The neocons are the greatest threat America has ever faced, and they have the reins of power. Americans need to wake up to this fact and stop indulging their macho "kick their Muslim butts" fantasies and their "end times" Rapture fantasies.

The Bush administration is not establishing any democracies. It is starting a war that will last a generation. That is the neocon plan. They have put their intentions in writing just as Hitler did. It is no protection that their plan is detached from reality. Robespierre was detached from reality, and that did not stop him. So were Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot. People with power in their hands who are detached from reality are the most dangerous people of all. The delusional quality of their rantings disarms people from taking them seriously: "Oh, they couldn't mean that." But they do.

[Sonic Zepplin]

That about sums it up.

[billy34-kit]

.......Hi guys!....., doctor have very effective way to help you with ...your problem of paranoia!!!!!

[tallutallu]

Billy34. Before using the word paranoia on others. Aren't you a little paranoid yourself these days? Trying to send you a private message but don't work. Do you have an e-mail?

[Ya Zi]

So Dubya says in his state of the union blah that he aims to bring democracy to the world particularly the Middle East. And even more particularly Syria and Iran who sponser terrorism.

Doesn't the tw@t realise that while he's rattling sabres in their direction, they are going to continue to sponsor the Iraqi insurgents so that America stays busy in Iraq and leaves them alone. He's either very stupid or has been badly advised. Probably some of each.

And when will this democracy plan be explained to his great pals, the Saudi Royal family?

[Jobear]

So I guess the Iraqis turnning out to vote in record numbers are a sign of how good they had it under a brutal and murderous regime?

Please if it weren't for America and our policies the British would be saluting Hitler, and Uncle Joe and his boys would still be purging his own country, not to mention there would be no Israel or Jews to inhabit it. As far as the rest of the world I would say 90% of americans surveyed could give a fat rats hiney about worlds opinion. Why because we do the job the rest of you sniveling tree hugging, birekenstock wearing pansies are to afraid of or because your goverments are accepting Illegal monies/Oil/Contracts from the regimes we oppose.

It's not wrong to be afraid, but it is wrong to be afraid to act based on precieved opinion!

And if anyone is offended you can kiss my freedom loving butt!

Signed
A Son of Freedom

THE PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. Mr. Speaker, Vice President Cheney, members of Congress, distinguished guests, fellow citizens: As we gather tonight, our nation is at war, our economy is in recession, and the civilized world faces unprecedented dangers. Yet the state of our Union has never been stronger. (Applause.)

We last met in an hour of shock and suffering. In four short months, our nation has comforted the victims, begun to rebuild New York and the Pentagon, rallied a great coalition, captured, arrested, and rid the world of thousands of terrorists, destroyed Afghanistan\'s terrorist training camps, saved a people from starvation, and freed a country from brutal oppression. (Applause.)

The American flag flies again over our embassy in Kabul. Terrorists who once occupied Afghanistan now occupy cells at Guantanamo Bay. (Applause.) And terrorist leaders who urged followers to sacrifice their lives are running for their own. (Applause.)

America and Afghanistan are now allies against terror. We\'ll be partners in rebuilding that country. And this evening we welcome the distinguished interim leader of a liberated Afghanistan: Chairman Hamid Karzai. (Applause.)

The last time we met in this chamber, the mothers and daughters of Afghanistan were captives in their own homes, forbidden from working or going to school. Today women are free, and are part of Afghanistan\'s new government. And we welcome the new Minister of Women\'s Affairs, Doctor Sima Samar. (Applause.)

Our progress is a tribute to the spirit of the Afghan people, to the resolve of our coalition, and to the might of the United States military. (Applause.) When I called our troops into action, I did so with complete confidence in their courage and skill. And tonight, thanks to them, we are winning the war on terror. (Applause.) The man and women of our Armed Forces have delivered a message now clear to every enemy of the United States: Even 7,000 miles away, across oceans and continents, on mountaintops and in caves -- you will not escape the justice of this nation. (Applause.)

For many Americans, these four months have brought sorrow, and pain that will never completely go away. Every day a retired firefighter returns to Ground Zero, to feel closer to his two sons who died there. At a memorial in New York, a little boy left his football with a note for his lost father: Dear Daddy, please take this to heaven. I don\'t want to play football until I can play with you again some day.

Last month, at the grave of her husband, Michael, a CIA officer and Marine who died in Mazur-e-Sharif, Shannon Spann said these words of farewell: "Semper Fi, my love." Shannon is with us tonight. (Applause.)

Shannon, I assure you and all who have lost a loved one that our cause is just, and our country will never forget the debt we owe Michael and all who gave their lives for freedom.

Our cause is just, and it continues. Our discoveries in Afghanistan confirmed our worst fears, and showed us the true scope of the task ahead. We have seen the depth of our enemies\' hatred in videos, where they laugh about the loss of innocent life. And the depth of their hatred is equaled by the madness of the destruction they design. We have found diagrams of American nuclear power plants and public water facilities, detailed instructions for making chemical weapons, surveillance maps of American cities, and thorough descriptions of landmarks in America and throughout the world.

What we have found in Afghanistan confirms that, far from ending there, our war against terror is only beginning. Most of the 19 men who hijacked planes on September the 11th were trained in Afghanistan\'s camps, and so were tens of thousands of others. Thousands of dangerous killers, schooled in the methods of murder, often supported by outlaw regimes, are now spread throughout the world like ticking time bombs, set to go off without warning.

Thanks to the work of our law enforcement officials and coalition partners, hundreds of terrorists have been arrested. Yet, tens of thousands of trained terrorists are still at large. These enemies view the entire world as a battlefield, and we must pursue them wherever they are. (Applause.) So long as training camps operate, so long as nations harbor terrorists, freedom is at risk. And America and our allies must not, and will not, allow it. (Applause.)

Our nation will continue to be steadfast and patient and persistent in the pursuit of two great objectives. First, we will shut down terrorist camps, disrupt terrorist plans, and bring terrorists to justice. And, second, we must prevent the terrorists and regimes who seek chemical, biological or nuclear weapons from threatening the United States and the world. (Applause.)

Our military has put the terror training camps of Afghanistan out of business, yet camps still exist in at least a dozen countries. A terrorist underworld -- including groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Jaish-i-Mohammed -- operates in remote jungles and deserts, and hides in the centers of large cities.

While the most visible military action is in Afghanistan, America is acting elsewhere. We now have troops in the Philippines, helping to train that country\'s armed forces to go after terrorist cells that have executed an American, and still hold hostages. Our soldiers, working with the Bosnian government, seized terrorists who were plotting to bomb our embassy. Our Navy is patrolling the coast of Africa to block the shipment of weapons and the establishment of terrorist camps in Somalia.

My hope is that all nations will heed our call, and eliminate the terrorist parasites who threaten their countries and our own. Many nations are acting forcefully. Pakistan is now cracking down on terror, and I admire the strong leadership of President Musharraf. (Applause.)

But some governments will be timid in the face of terror. And make no mistake about it: If they do not act, America will. (Applause.)

Our second goal is to prevent regimes that sponsor terror from threatening America or our friends and allies with weapons of mass destruction. Some of these regimes have been pretty quiet since September the 11th. But we know their true nature. North Korea is a regime arming with missiles and weapons of mass destruction, while starving its citizens.

Iran aggressively pursues these weapons and exports terror, while an unelected few repress the Iranian people\'s hope for freedom.

Iraq continues to flaunt its hostility toward America and to support terror. The Iraqi regime has plotted to develop anthrax, and nerve gas, and nuclear weapons for over a decade. This is a regime that has already used poison gas to murder thousands of its own citizens -- leaving the bodies of mothers huddled over their dead children. This is a regime that agreed to international inspections -- then kicked out the inspectors. This is a regime that has something to hide from the civilized world.

States like these, and their terrorist allies, constitute an axis of evil, arming to threaten the peace of the world. By seeking weapons of mass destruction, these regimes pose a grave and growing danger. They could provide these arms to terrorists, giving them the means to match their hatred. They could attack our allies or attempt to blackmail the United States. In any of these cases, the price of indifference would be catastrophic.

We will work closely with our coalition to deny terrorists and their state sponsors the materials, technology, and expertise to make and deliver weapons of mass destruction. We will develop and deploy effective missile defenses to protect America and our allies from sudden attack. (Applause.) And all nations should know: America will do what is necessary to ensure our nation\'s security.

We\'ll be deliberate, yet time is not on our side. I will not wait on events, while dangers gather. I will not stand by, as peril draws closer and closer. The United States of America will not permit the world\'s most dangerous regimes to threaten us with the world\'s most destructive weapons. (Applause.)

Our war on terror is well begun, but it is only begun. This campaign may not be finished on our watch -- yet it must be and it will be waged on our watch.

We can\'t stop short. If we stop now -- leaving terror camps intact and terror states unchecked -- our sense of security would be false and temporary. History has called America and our allies to action, and it is both our responsibility and our privilege to fight freedom\'s fight. (Applause.)

Our first priority must always be the security of our nation, and that will be reflected in the budget I send to Congress. My budget supports three great goals for America: We will win this war; we\'ll protect our homeland; and we will revive our economy.

September the 11th brought out the best in America, and the best in this Congress. And I join the American people in applauding your unity and resolve. (Applause.) Now Americans deserve to have this same spirit directed toward addressing problems here at home. I\'m a proud member of my party -- yet as we act to win the war, protect our people, and create jobs in America, we must act, first and foremost, not as Republicans, not as Democrats, but as Americans. (Applause.)

It costs a lot to fight this war. We have spent more than a billion dollars a month -- over $30 million a day -- and we must be prepared for future operations. Afghanistan proved that expensive precision weapons defeat the enemy and spare innocent lives, and we need more of them. We need to replace aging aircraft and make our military more agile, to put our troops anywhere in the world quickly and safely. Our men and women in uniform deserve the best weapons, the best equipment, the best training -- and they also deserve another pay raise. (Applause.)

My budget includes the largest increase in defense spending in two decades -- because while the price of freedom and security is high, it is never too high. Whatever it costs to defend our country, we will pay. (Applause.)

The next priority of my budget is to do everything possible to protect our citizens and strengthen our nation against the ongoing threat of another attack. Time and distance from the events of September the 11th will not make us safer unless we act on its lessons. America is no longer protected by vast oceans. We are protected from attack only by vigorous action abroad, and increased vigilance at home.

My budget nearly doubles funding for a sustained strategy of homeland security, focused on four key areas: bioterrorism, emergency response, airport and border security, and improved intelligence. We will develop vaccines to fight anthrax and other deadly diseases. We\'ll increase funding to help states and communities train and equip our heroic police and firefighters. (Applause.) We will improve intelligence collection and sharing, expand patrols at our borders, strengthen the security of air travel, and use technology to track the arrivals and departures of visitors to the United States. (Applause.)

Homeland security will make America not only stronger, but, in many ways, better. Knowledge gained from bioterrorism research will improve public health. Stronger police and fire departments will mean safer neighborhoods. Stricter border enforcement will help combat illegal drugs. (Applause.) And as government works to better secure our homeland, America will continue to depend on the eyes and ears of alert citizens.

A few days before Christmas, an airline flight attendant spotted a passenger lighting a match. The crew and passengers quickly subdued the man, who had been trained by al Qaeda and was armed with explosives. The people on that plane were alert and, as a result, likely saved nearly 200 lives. And tonight we welcome and thank flight attendants Hermis Moutardier and Christina Jones. (Applause.)

Once we have funded our national security and our homeland security, the final great priority of my budget is economic security for the American people. (Applause.) To achieve these great national objectives -- to win the war, protect the homeland, and revitalize our economy -- our budget will run a deficit that will be small and short-term, so long as Congress restrains spending and acts in a fiscally responsible manner. (Applause.) We have clear priorities and we must act at home with the same purpose and resolve we have shown overseas: We\'ll prevail in the war, and we will defeat this recession. (Applause.)

Americans who have lost their jobs need our help and I support extending unemployment benefits and direct assistance for health care coverage. (Applause.) Yet, American workers want more than unemployment checks -- they want a steady paycheck. (Applause.) When America works, America prospers, so my economic security plan can be summed up in one word: jobs. (Applause.)

Good jobs begin with good schools, and here we\'ve made a fine start. (Applause.) Republicans and Democrats worked together to achieve historic education reform so that no child is left behind. I was proud to work with members of both parties: Chairman John Boehner and Congressman George Miller. (Applause.) Senator Judd Gregg. (Applause.) And I was so proud of our work, I even had nice things to say about my friend, Ted Kennedy. (Laughter and applause.) I know the folks at the Crawford coffee shop couldn\'t believe I\'d say such a thing -- (laughter) -- but our work on this bill shows what is possible if we set aside posturing and focus on results. (Applause.)

There is more to do. We need to prepare our children to read and succeed in school with improved Head Start and early childhood development programs. (Applause.) We must upgrade our teacher colleges and teacher training and launch a major recruiting drive with a great goal for America: a quality teacher in every classroom. (Applause.)

Good jobs also depend on reliable and affordable energy. This Congress must act to encourage conservation, promote technology, build infrastructure, and it must act to increase energy production at home so America is less dependent on foreign oil. (Applause.)

Good jobs depend on expanded trade. Selling into new markets creates new jobs, so I ask Congress to finally approve trade promotion authority. (Applause.) On these two key issues, trade and energy, the House of Representatives has acted to create jobs, and I urge the Senate to pass this legislation. (Applause.)

Good jobs depend on sound tax policy. (Applause.) Last year, some in this hall thought my tax relief plan was too small; some thought it was too big. (Applause.) But when the checks arrived in the mail, most Americans thought tax relief was just about right. (Applause.) Congress listened to the people and responded by reducing tax rates, doubling the child credit, and ending the death tax. For the sake of long-term growth and to help Americans plan for the future, let\'s make these tax cuts permanent. (Applause.)

The way out of this recession, the way to create jobs, is to grow the economy by encouraging investment in factories and equipment, and by speeding up tax relief so people have more money to spend. For the sake of American workers, let\'s pass a stimulus package. (Applause.)

Good jobs must be the aim of welfare reform. As we reauthorize these important reforms, we must always remember the goal is to reduce dependency on government and offer every American the dignity of a job. (Applause.)

Americans know economic security can vanish in an instant without health security. I ask Congress to join me this year to enact a patients\' bill of rights -- (applause) -- to give uninsured workers credits to help buy health coverage -- (applause) -- to approve an historic increase in the spending for veterans\' health -- (applause) -- and to give seniors a sound and modern Medicare system that includes coverage for prescription drugs. (Applause.)

A good job should lead to security in retirement. I ask Congress to enact new safeguards for 401K and pension plans. (Applause.) Employees who have worked hard and saved all their lives should not have to risk losing everything if their company fails. (Applause.) Through stricter accounting standards and tougher disclosure requirements, corporate America must be made more accountable to employees and shareholders and held to the highest standards of conduct. (Applause.)

Retirement security also depends upon keeping the commitments of Social Security, and we will. We must make Social Security financially stable and allow personal retirement accounts for younger workers who choose them. (Applause.)

Members, you and I will work together in the months ahead on other issues: productive farm policy -- (applause) -- a cleaner environment -- (applause) -- broader home ownership, especially among minorities -- (applause) -- and ways to encourage the good work of charities and faith-based groups. (Applause.) I ask you to join me on these important domestic issues in the same spirit of cooperation we\'ve applied to our war against terrorism. (Applause.)

During these last few months, I\'ve been humbled and privileged to see the true character of this country in a time of testing. Our enemies believed America was weak and materialistic, that we would splinter in fear and selfishness. They were as wrong as they are evil. (Applause.)

The American people have responded magnificently, with courage and compassion, strength and resolve. As I have met the heroes, hugged the families, and looked into the tired faces of rescuers, I have stood in awe of the American people.

And I hope you will join me -- I hope you will join me in expressing thanks to one American for the strength and calm and comfort she brings to our nation in crisis, our First Lady, Laura Bush. (Applause.)

None of us would ever wish the evil that was done on September the 11th. Yet after America was attacked, it was as if our entire country looked into a mirror and saw our better selves. We were reminded that we are citizens, with obligations to each other, to our country, and to history. We began to think less of the goods we can accumulate, and more about the good we can do.

For too long our culture has said, "If it feels good, do it." Now America is embracing a new ethic and a new creed: "Let\'s roll." (Applause.) In the sacrifice of soldiers, the fierce brotherhood of firefighters, and the bravery and generosity of ordinary citizens, we have glimpsed what a new culture of responsibility could look like. We want to be a nation that serves goals larger than self. We\'ve been offered a unique opportunity, and we must not let this moment pass. (Applause.)

My call tonight is for every American to commit at least two years -- 4,000 hours over the rest of your lifetime -- to the service of your neighbors and your nation. (Applause.) Many are already serving, and I thank you. If you aren\'t sure how to help, I\'ve got a good place to start. To sustain and extend the best that has emerged in America, I invite you to join the new USA Freedom Corps. The Freedom Corps will focus on three areas of need: responding in case of crisis at home; rebuilding our communities; and extending American compassion throughout the world.

One purpose of the USA Freedom Corps will be homeland security. America needs retired doctors and nurses who can be mobilized in major emergencies; volunteers to help police and fire departments; transportation and utility workers well-trained in spotting danger.

Our country also needs citizens working to rebuild our communities. We need mentors to love children, especially children whose parents are in prison. And we need more talented teachers in troubled schools. USA Freedom Corps will expand and improve the good efforts of AmeriCorps and Senior Corps to recruit more than 200,000 new volunteers.

And America needs citizens to extend the compassion of our country to every part of the world. So we will renew the promise of the Peace Corps, double its volunteers over the next five years -- (applause) -- and ask it to join a new effort to encourage development and education and opportunity in the Islamic world. (Applause.)

This time of adversity offers a unique moment of opportunity -- a moment we must seize to change our culture. Through the gathering momentum of millions of acts of service and decency and kindness, I know we can overcome evil with greater good. (Applause.) And we have a great opportunity during this time of war to lead the world toward the values that will bring lasting peace.

All fathers and mothers, in all societies, want their children to be educated, and live free from poverty and violence. No people on Earth yearn to be oppressed, or aspire to servitude, or eagerly await the midnight knock of the secret police.

If anyone doubts this, let them look to Afghanistan, where the Islamic "street" greeted the fall of tyranny with song and celebration. Let the skeptics look to Islam\'s own rich history, with its centuries of learning, and tolerance and progress. America will lead by defending liberty and justice because they are right and true and unchanging for all people everywhere. (Applause.)

No nation owns these aspirations, and no nation is exempt from them. We have no intention of imposing our culture. But America will always stand firm for the non-negotiable demands of human dignity: the rule of law; limits on the power of the state; respect for women; private property; free speech; equal justice; and religious tolerance. (Applause.)

America will take the side of brave men and women who advocate these values around the world, including the Islamic world, because we have a greater objective than eliminating threats and containing resentment. We seek a just and peaceful world beyond the war on terror.

In this moment of opportunity, a common danger is erasing old rivalries. America is working with Russia and China and India, in ways we have never before, to achieve peace and prosperity. In every region, free markets and free trade and free societies are proving their power to lift lives. Together with friends and allies from Europe to Asia, and Africa to Latin America, we will demonstrate that the forces of terror cannot stop the momentum of freedom. (Applause.)

The last time I spoke here, I expressed the hope that life would return to normal. In some ways, it has. In others, it never will. Those of us who have lived through these challenging times have been changed by them. We\'ve come to know truths that we will never question: evil is real, and it must be opposed. (Applause.) Beyond all differences of race or creed, we are one country, mourning together and facing danger together. Deep in the American character, there is honor, and it is stronger than cynicism. And many have discovered again that even in tragedy -- especially in tragedy -- God is near. (Applause.)

In a single instant, we realized that this will be a decisive decade in the history of liberty, that we\'ve been called to a unique role in human events. Rarely has the world faced a choice more clear or consequential.

Our enemies send other people\'s children on missions of suicide and murder. They embrace tyranny and death as a cause and a creed. We stand for a different choice, made long ago, on the day of our founding. We affirm it again today. We choose freedom and the dignity of every life. (Applause.)

Steadfast in our purpose, we now press on. We have known freedom\'s price. We have shown freedom\'s power. And in this great conflict, my fellow Americans, we will see freedom\'s victory.

Thank you all. May God bless. (Applause.)

END 10:03 P.M. EST

Once we have funded our national security and our homeland security, the final great priority of my budget is economic security for the American people. (Applause.) To achieve these great national objectives -- to win the war, protect the homeland, and revitalize our economy -- our budget will run a deficit that will be small and short-term, so long as Congress restrains spending and acts in a fiscally responsible manner. (Applause.) We have clear priorities and we must act at home with the same purpose and resolve we have shown overseas: We\'ll prevail in the war, and we will defeat this recession. (Applause.)

Americans who have lost their jobs need our help and I support extending unemployment benefits and direct assistance for health care coverage. (Applause.) Yet, American workers want more than unemployment checks -- they want a steady paycheck. (Applause.) When America works, America prospers, so my economic security plan can be summed up in one word: jobs. (Applause.)

Good jobs begin with good schools, and here we\'ve made a fine start. (Applause.) Republicans and Democrats worked together to achieve historic education reform so that no child is left behind. I was proud to work with members of both parties: Chairman John Boehner and Congressman George Miller. (Applause.) Senator Judd Gregg. (Applause.) And I was so proud of our work, I even had nice things to say about my friend, Ted Kennedy. (Laughter and applause.) I know the folks at the Crawford coffee shop couldn\'t believe I\'d say such a thing -- (laughter) -- but our work on this bill shows what is possible if we set aside posturing and focus on results. (Applause.)

There is more to do. We need to prepare our children to read and succeed in school with improved Head Start and early childhood development programs. (Applause.) We must upgrade our teacher colleges and teacher training and launch a major recruiting drive with a great goal for America: a quality teacher in every classroom. (Applause.)

Good jobs also depend on reliable and affordable energy. This Congress must act to encourage conservation, promote technology, build infrastructure, and it must act to increase energy production at home so America is less dependent on foreign oil. (Applause.)

Good jobs depend on expanded trade. Selling into new markets creates new jobs, so I ask Congress to finally approve trade promotion authority. (Applause.) On these two key issues, trade and energy, the House of Representatives has acted to create jobs, and I urge the Senate to pass this legislation. (Applause.)

Good jobs depend on sound tax policy. (Applause.) Last year, some in this hall thought my tax relief plan was too small; some thought it was too big. (Applause.) But when the checks arrived in the mail, most Americans thought tax relief was just about right. (Applause.) Congress listened to the people and responded by reducing tax rates, doubling the child credit, and ending the death tax. For the sake of long-term growth and to help Americans plan for the future, let\'s make these tax cuts permanent. (Applause.)

The way out of this recession, the way to create jobs, is to grow the economy by encouraging investment in factories and equipment, and by speeding up tax relief so people have more money to spend. For the sake of American workers, let\'s pass a stimulus package. (Applause.)

Good jobs must be the aim of welfare reform. As we reauthorize these important reforms, we must always remember the goal is to reduce dependency on government and offer every American the dignity of a job. (Applause.)

Americans know economic security can vanish in an instant without health security. I ask Congress to join me this year to enact a patients\' bill of rights -- (applause) -- to give uninsured workers credits to help buy health coverage -- (applause) -- to approve an historic increase in the spending for veterans\' health -- (applause) -- and to give seniors a sound and modern Medicare system that includes coverage for prescription drugs. (Applause.)

A good job should lead to security in retirement. I ask Congress to enact new safeguards for 401K and pension plans. (Applause.) Employees who have worked hard and saved all their lives should not have to risk losing everything if their company fails. (Applause.) Through stricter accounting standards and tougher disclosure requirements, corporate America must be made more accountable to employees and shareholders and held to the highest standards of conduct. (Applause.)

Retirement security also depends upon keeping the commitments of Social Security, and we will. We must make Social Security financially stable and allow personal retirement accounts for younger workers who choose them. (Applause.)

Members, you and I will work together in the months ahead on other issues: productive farm policy -- (applause) -- a cleaner environment -- (applause) -- broader home ownership, especially among minorities -- (applause) -- and ways to encourage the good work of charities and faith-based groups. (Applause.) I ask you to join me on these important domestic issues in the same spirit of cooperation we\'ve applied to our war against terrorism. (Applause.)

During these last few months, I\'ve been humbled and privileged to see the true character of this country in a time of testing. Our enemies believed America was weak and materialistic, that we would splinter in fear and selfishness. They were as wrong as they are evil. (Applause.)

The American people have responded magnificently, with courage and compassion, strength and resolve. As I have met the heroes, hugged the families, and looked into the tired faces of rescuers, I have stood in awe of the American people.

And I hope you will join me -- I hope you will join me in expressing thanks to one American for the strength and calm and comfort she brings to our nation in crisis, our First Lady, Laura Bush. (Applause.)

None of us would ever wish the evil that was done on September the 11th. Yet after America was attacked, it was as if our entire country looked into a mirror and saw our better selves. We were reminded that we are citizens, with obligations to each other, to our country, and to history. We began to think less of the goods we can accumulate, and more about the good we can do.

For too long our culture has said, "If it feels good, do it." Now America is embracing a new ethic and a new creed: "Let\'s roll." (Applause.) In the sacrifice of soldiers, the fierce brotherhood of firefighters, and the bravery and generosity of ordinary citizens, we have glimpsed what a new culture of responsibility could look like. We want to be a nation that serves goals larger than self. We\'ve been offered a unique opportunity, and we must not let this moment pass. (Applause.)

My call tonight is for every American to commit at least two years -- 4,000 hours over the rest of your lifetime -- to the service of your neighbors and your nation. (Applause.) Many are already serving, and I thank you. If you aren\'t sure how to help, I\'ve got a good place to start. To sustain and extend the best that has emerged in America, I invite you to join the new USA Freedom Corps. The Freedom Corps will focus on three areas of need: responding in case of crisis at home; rebuilding our communities; and extending American compassion throughout the world.

One purpose of the USA Freedom Corps will be homeland security. America needs retired doctors and nurses who can be mobilized in major emergencies; volunteers to help police and fire departments; transportation and utility workers well-trained in spotting danger.

Our country also needs citizens working to rebuild our communities. We need mentors to love children, especially children whose parents are in prison. And we need more talented teachers in troubled schools. USA Freedom Corps will expand and improve the good efforts of AmeriCorps and Senior Corps to recruit more than 200,000 new volunteers.

And America needs citizens to extend the compassion of our country to every part of the world. So we will renew the promise of the Peace Corps, double its volunteers over the next five years -- (applause) -- and ask it to join a new effort to encourage development and education and opportunity in the Islamic world. (Applause.)

This time of adversity offers a unique moment of opportunity -- a moment we must seize to change our culture. Through the gathering momentum of millions of acts of service and decency and kindness, I know we can overcome evil with greater good. (Applause.) And we have a great opportunity during this time of war to lead the world toward the values that will bring lasting peace.

All fathers and mothers, in all societies, want their children to be educated, and live free from poverty and violence. No people on Earth yearn to be oppressed, or aspire to servitude, or eagerly await the midnight knock of the secret police.

If anyone doubts this, let them look to Afghanistan, where the Islamic "street" greeted the fall of tyranny with song and celebration. Let the skeptics look to Islam\'s own rich history, with its centuries of learning, and tolerance and progress. America will lead by defending liberty and justice because they are right and true and unchanging for all people everywhere. (Applause.)

No nation owns these aspirations, and no nation is exempt from them. We have no intention of imposing our culture. But America will always stand firm for the non-negotiable demands of human dignity: the rule of law; limits on the power of the state; respect for women; private property; free speech; equal justice; and religious tolerance. (Applause.)

America will take the side of brave men and women who advocate these values around the world, including the Islamic world, because we have a greater objective than eliminating threats and containing resentment. We seek a just and peaceful world beyond the war on terror.

In this moment of opportunity, a common danger is erasing old rivalries. America is working with Russia and China and India, in ways we have never before, to achieve peace and prosperity. In every region, free markets and free trade and free societies are proving their power to lift lives. Together with friends and allies from Europe to Asia, and Africa to Latin America, we will demonstrate that the forces of terror cannot stop the momentum of freedom. (Applause.)

The last time I spoke here, I expressed the hope that life would return to normal. In some ways, it has. In others, it never will. Those of us who have lived through these challenging times have been changed by them. We\'ve come to know truths that we will never question: evil is real, and it must be opposed. (Applause.) Beyond all differences of race or creed, we are one country, mourning together and facing danger together. Deep in the American character, there is honor, and it is stronger than cynicism. And many have discovered again that even in tragedy -- especially in tragedy -- God is near. (Applause.)

In a single instant, we realized that this will be a decisive decade in the history of liberty, that we\'ve been called to a unique role in human events. Rarely has the world faced a choice more clear or consequential.

Our enemies send other people\'s children on missions of suicide and murder. They embrace tyranny and death as a cause and a creed. We stand for a different choice, made long ago, on the day of our founding. We affirm it again today. We choose freedom and the dignity of every life. (Applause.)

Steadfast in our purpose, we now press on. We have known freedom\'s price. We have shown freedom\'s power. And in this great conflict, my fellow Americans, we will see freedom\'s victory.

Thank you all. May God bless. (Applause.)

END 10:03 P.M. EST

[Snowyman]

Remember to tell this at your interview with EK or other ME airline :} They will be impressed.

[toothpaste67]

Wow- impressive! What a guy! Good to know there are guys like that out there! I heard Teletubbies are recruiting...

[FlyingCroc]

:yuk:

Yeah Jobear

There were NO WMD in Iraq but over 1400 of our soldiers dead, over 9000 wounded, 100000 Iraqis dead but now we have Democrazy in Iraq!

God bless the World!

Okay, so what happens now?
This last week has started to see the façade crumble away from the wars. Gone is the comfortable fraud, leaving in its wake a very stark and harsh reality.

The Carnegie Report affirmed that there had never been a military threat from Iraq, no weapons of mass destruction were poised just 45 minutes away to strike at hearth and home. The last-second discovery of a few dozen rusted out warheads from 10 years ago only underscored that the desperate attempt to find weapons of mass destruction to retroactively justify the war in Iraq had failed, and failed miserably.

The Carnegie Report came hard on the heels of Paul Bremer’s comments that claims of underground WMDs labs having been found in Iraq were a total fiction. Paul was apparently unaware that Prime Minister Tony Blair was the author of the aforesaid claims.

This was followed by a startling admission by Colin Powell that there was no evidence that linked Iraq or Saddam Hussein with Al Qaeda. This admission was startling because it was Colin Powell himself who nearly a year ago was assuring the world of the exact opposite, that Iraq was supporting and arming Al Qaeda.

A last-ditch attempt to explain the absence of WMDs in Iraq by claiming that Syria now had them was torpedoed by no less a personage than National Security Advisor Condoleeza Rice, who admitted for the record that there was no evidence at all that Iraq had sent WMDs to Syria, a reasonable conclusion now that it is apparent that Iraq did not have WMDs at all.

Finally we have former Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill, who has gone public with the revelation that the Bush administration was planning war on Iraq from the day they took office, long before the events of 9-11.

None of these revelations are shocking to those people who get their news from the internet. What has changed is that the mainstream media, possibly out of concern that the internet has succeeded in capturing the lead in reporting stories of government wrongdoing (my own website now has a readership larger than all but the largest city newspapers) , has started to report these embarrassing admissions and exposures to the general public.

The immediate result of these stories is that non-computer literate Americans can no longer avoid what has been obvious to the internet Americans for months. The US Government lied to start wars planned long before the general public even knew they were coming.

No doubt there will be a great deal of denial on the part of those flag-waving ‘true believers’ who eagerly shipped off other people’s children to be killed and crippled. Nobody likes to admit they were wrong, or made a fool of, and we may see the flag-waving ‘true believers’ eager to ship off more of their neighbors’ kids to be killed before they are ready to admit their own error at not being more skeptical of the government’s pre-war claims.

But there can no longer be any doubt. The US Government lied to start the war in Iraq. The whole world knows that now. And more to the point, the whole world knows that Americans know that the US Government lied to start the war in Iraq. The world is now watching to see what the people of the United States will do. We must do something. No longer able to pretend we are innocent victims of government deception, the world will expect the people of the United States to do something about this horrific deception and the equally horrific war it created.

Americans have long held themselves up as the champions of justice and freedom for the rest of the world. It is our image to the world. It is our image to ourselves. It is how we define ourselves, it is our identity, and it is who we are collectively as a nation. And, if we fail to take action in the face of the lies used to start a war, we must in the process sacrifice that image, not only to the world, but to ourselves. Either one acts like a champion of truth and freedom, or one admits one is just another sheep. There is no other choice left.

Most Americans don’t want to face that choice. They want their cake and eat it too. They want to believe that, being Americans, they are honorable people willing to fight for principles, but being practical, they also don’t want to run the risks that taking a stand against corrupt government entails. It is for that reason that so many people will gratefully accept even the most obvious and shoddy propaganda lies, in order to avoid that choice. They can go on believing they have the courage to stand up for freedom and justice while pretending they do not see any reason to do so at the present moment.

But the current, “Big deal, so we lied” attitude of the administration has removed that comforting self-deception. Americans are facing that unpleasant choice of deciding whether they really do have the courage to stand up for truth, justice, and freedom, or if they are cowards who wear their convictions only for show on the appropriate social occasions.

For many Americans still believing the idea that the government is the servant of the people and is looking out for the people’s best interests, the revelation of the deception that took this nation to war in Iraq is a severe psychic shock, not unlike that felt by a child who realizes that it is not the child but the abusive parent that is the problem, or the discovery that one’s spouse has been cheating all along. Reactions to the shock will be varied, evolving through denial, anger, and finally acceptance.

Ultimately, after the angst, the choice Americans do not want to face will have to be made. First choice; stand up for freedom, truth, and justice. In other words, be what an American is supposed to be before the world and before oneself. Second choice, do nothing, and by that nothing cease to be what an American is supposed to be.

From those that choose the second course, we can expect the usual excuses, justifications, rationalizations, the pathetic “my country right or wrong” voiced in a thousand variations by a million useful idiots throughout history. Like the abused child making excuses for the abusing parent, or the cuckold covering up for the wandering spouse, these are pathetic people in deep denial, and can hardly be called Americans any longer. Having had their money and children stolen through lies and deceptions, they have now lost their very identity. In such surrender, in ceasing to live what America is supposed to be, such people have damaged the nation far more deeply than any real terror attack could hope to do, and must rank in history with those Germans who knew what Hitler was really doing, and stayed silent, or worse, were driven to fanaticism by their own denial that they were doing wrong.

For the rest of us, the time has come to face the reality of a government that rules us by lies and deceptions. Action is called for, at all levels of society.

At the very least, men and women of good conscience, confronted with the lies that led us to war in Iraq, must now abandon the assumption that the government has ever told us the truth about anything. Lies got us into war with Iraq. Did lies get us into war with Afghanistan? Was 9-11 a deception to further the war agenda?

The Warren Report claimed JFK was shot by a lone gunman, but the House Select Committee on Assassinations concluded JFK was killed by multiple gunmen. We are taught in school that Pearl Harbor was a surprise, but documents declassified in 1994 proved that FDR not only knew the Japanese were coming, but had goaded the Japanese into the attack, as a means to get the US into the war against the Axis. There were no torpedoes in the Gulf of Tonkin. USS Maine was not blown up by a Spanish mine but by a fire in a coal bunker located imprudently next to a magazine. The investigation into the attack by Israel on the USS Liberty was ordered by President Johnson to conclude the attack was an accident even though the evidence indicated otherwise. The Iraqis did not actually steal incubators from Kuwaiti hospitals.

Time and time again the stories We The People are fed to justify wars both current and past do not bear close scrutiny. Of the dozens of military interventions carried out by the US in the years since the Korean war under the claim of bringing democracy to the world, not one has actually resulted in a functioning democracy. In Chile, the US actually destroyed a democratic government to install the dictator Pinochet.

For those Americans with the courage to stand for truth, justice, and freedom, living under a government that lies is intolerable. And, given that the Constitution of the United States does not explicitly grant the government the right to lie to the people, it is illegal as well.

Let me reiterate. The Constitution of the United States does not explicitly grant the government the right to lie to the people. And the Tenth Amendment bars the government from simply assuming that right.

Therefore, under the rule of law, a government that lies acts both unconstitutionally and illegally. At the point in time when the lie is told, the government steps outside its lawful authority and ceases to be the legal government of this land. And for those Americans who have the courage to stand for truth, justice, and freedom, the time has come to acknowledge that the current government is acting in an illegal manner.

Clearly a government that lies to the people to take from them money and children for wars created out of personal desire and greed is not a government of the people, by the people, or for the people, but usurpers stealing gold and blood under false pretenses.

When Bush lied to start the war in Iraq, the entire government and media, with only a few exceptions, stood up to be counted with the lie. It therefore follows that the entire government has lost its legitimacy. How can it be legitimate? How can a government that claims to rule with the consent of the people claim to have that consent when the people never consented to being lied to?

Some observers have stated that because of the current lie, the burden of proof has shifted onto the government. In truth, it was always there. The government is always obligated to be able to document the accuracy and honesty of whatever it claims, whether it’s the ratification of the 16th amendment, or Dick Cheney’s Energy policy.

We live under a government that has lied to Americans to trick us into wars waged for conquest and profit. We cannot allow this to stand and remain Americans. Bush’s lies about Iraq have forced an unpleasant choice on you, and the time to choose what you will do about it is now.

What Really Happened

[Pontious]

JoBear

History dictates that the removal of the threat of invasion to the British Isles by Hitler's Nazis was largely down to the 'few' brave Royal Air Force pilots made up of mainly Brits but also Canadian, Austrailian, NewZealander, South African, Rhodesian, Polish, Free French, Belgian, Dutch, and a whole host of other countries who fought and died over Southern England in The Battle of Britain from May-Sept 1940 forcing Hitler to cancel his planned invasion.

The Brit's saved themselves with a little help from their friends in the Commonwealth countries and the Occupied countries in Europe.That battle was over and won 15 months before Pearl Harbour. You didnt save the Brits. You did however manage to 'liberate' Europe and shower yourselves with a little Kudos until the VietCong pulped it out of you and sent you packing in the 1970's...the Lebanese in the 1980's... the Somali's in the 1990's... and... who next..? "The Dune Coons?", "The Towel Heads?" or whatever derogatory and insulting label you give to a people who you don't understand? But if there's one thing you guys have shown the world and that is that you sure have "Running Away" down to a fine art!!

Your astonishing levels of ignorance also shine through with "...Iraqi voters turning out in record numbers...". Oh really, JoBear? Care to enlighten us when they've voted before?
And "...Stalin would still be purging his country..." Well that's just plain old bollocks isn't it. Uncle Sam didn't get rid of Uncle Joe did he. Joseph Stalin died decades ago... of natural causes.

Congratulations on your astounding typing skills but feel free to take that "...if it hadn't been for us, the brit's would be saluting Hitler..." crap and stick it up your 'Freedom-loving' arse. It's that particular brand of rhetoric that is making you the Pariahs of the world and the reason why any goatherder with a Kalashnikov is taking pot shots at anything remotely representing America from an F-15 to a Ford Maverick. You really are an ignorant, thick as pig sh1t, double dumb assed son-of-a-bitch aren't you? Now, Numbnuts, get back to your sofa in La-La Land with the rest of the Teletubbies

:ok:

[Chimbu chuckles]

Here here pontious:ok:

[ferris]

We cannot allow this to stand and remain Americans. Bush’s lies about Iraq have forced an unpleasant choice on you, and the time to choose what you will do about it is now.
I would've thought the time to do something about it was an election. Bush @ co. were returned with an increased (some might say first-time) majority.

[Fox3snapshot]

Ok mate all is forgiven....I will back you on this one, but you really struck a low blow with the Teletubbies call!

:p

[Pontious]

Thank you, Guys.

Initially I was surprised at the lack of reaction from Beavis and Butthead, sorry, Billy34 and JoBear until I noted the time difference and realised that they were probably 'hanging out down the mall' or 'loitering with intent ,armed with deadly bling-bling' at the nearest gas station.

After a night of fruitless attempts to do anything whatsoever they probably toddled off homeward bound ,via McD's of course, ready to snuggle up next to their Dubya Dolls and fall sound asleep totally oblivious to the world around them, dreaming of a 'Golden M' on every corner of every street in the world, being driven to school in a Hummer, bling bling being an intergral part of any and every uniform they aspire to wear and where meaninful conversation takes no more effort than a series of low grunts intertwined with an occasional "Yee-Harrgh" for good measure and to give a story a bit of a meaning. All the while the ammount of undigested red meat in their swollen bellies quietly magnifies.

In a couple of hours they will be stirring in their pits as they grapple with hardships such as 'bashing the bishop',getting dressed, 'cracking one off', showering, 'chopping wood' and once those chores are completed they set off in search of some much needed protein replenishment. After negotiating access to the high chair it's time for skip loads of Cheerios doused with lashings of lo-bullsh1t milk.

After being made to look publically presentable by doting Mater and Sister it's off to the local Evangelical Church of Latter Day Morons for much ado about nothing except screaming 'Praise The Lord and Hallelujah' while Beavis and Butthead muster the usual grunts this time coupled with an attempt at Hallelujah but manifesting itself as a 'Yee-Harrgh'.

The cleansing of souls, weekly brainwash, and update on the crusade behind them, 'Our Nations Finest' clamber aboard their SUV, Hummer or some other Kyoto violating, gas-guzzling, pollution belching Behemoth and set course for home, with a stop off for the obligatory leg stretch, caffeine intake and top-up of red meat where much gruntting and communal 'Yee-harrghs' are exchanged.

Fully fuelled and waddling with gay abandon, B&B test the suspension of their 4x4 'to da max' on the short drive home by actually sitting inside the beast as it coughs and beltches for all of its worth for the long 300 yard drive home to Trailer-Trashville, on the edge of La-La City limits. Once they've squeezed each other through the front (only) door, we witness the first tantrum of the day as they clock the closing credits of Teletubbies. In a red mist, Our Superheros' reach for their legally owned, licensed and registered M16's and menace the TV set. After receiving no joy they set about chancing their arm at mortal combat with the truth in the real world as they prepare to do battle with 'The Intanett' and discuss tactics on dismissing reliable 'factz n figguz' with their 'if all else fails' insurance policy of "...if it hadnt been for us the...blah..blah...blah...",. Mentally prepared,retarded and scarred they'll switch on their computer and read what I've written here.

"INCOMING!"


:ok:

[sidman]

I think these guys were in England helping out..


http://www.91stbombgroup.com/91stcasualtylist.html

A total of 350,000 airmen served with the Eighth Air Force in England, and to this number, 26,000 were killed, or 7.42 percent. Compared to the percentages of other military branches – U.S. Marines 3.29%, U.S. Army 2.25%, and U.S. Navy 0.41%. - the Air Corps sustained the heaviest losses. More airman with the Eighth Air Force lost their lives than the entire Marine Corps, whose enrollment included 250,000 more people. Strictly measuring the mortality rate for the 210,000 air crewmen the casualty figure soars to 12.38% and in addition, 21,000 from the Eighth Air Force wound up in prison of war camps. Of those who flew the original twenty-five mission bomber tour in 1942-1943, just 35% survived, the twenty-five to thirty mission requirements of 1944 saw 66% completed, and by 1945, 81% of the combatants flew the full thirty-five engagements

YOUR WELCOME!!!

[tinpis]

Gee pontius I havent been to America in a long time , is it really that bad?

:uhoh:

[BahrainLad]

Gee, sidman I think you'll find that the Battle of Britain was won without American help in 1940, not "1942-3".....

You're welcome.

[Pontious]

BahrainLad Thanks. I'll buy you a Tetleys when I'm next in the Brit Club.

Tinpis - yup.

Sidman

The brave men of the 8th Air Force were all hero's to a man but they didn't start to arrive until late Spring 1942 which was 2 years after the start of the Battle of Britain and 18 months after it finished. No doubt Hollywood will try to re-write this bit of history too when it realises it actually played no part in this particular skirmish. You should watch 'The Longest Day' and catch one of John wayne's scenes. He puts it across quite directly.

The 8th Air force along with the might of the U.S. war machine helped free Europe but it didn't help Britain in her darkest hour. That was down a combination of factors. Tactics, strategies, technology and the most important ingredient... the pilots and groundcrews of the RAF whatever their nationality or colour, the factory workers who worked around the clock whilst being blitzed to turn out the aircraft, spares and munitions needed for our survival... in other words the citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, The Commonwealth and the remenants of the various nations forces overrun in Nazi occupied Europe. The Second World War started on September 3rd 1939, America entered December 7th 1941. You do the maths.

And you are very welcome to that,mate.

I was trying to stay away from Yank-bashing but sometimes you just have to respond, you know.


Anyway, back to the thread, I notice the Iranians responded to the threat of US attack in an article on BBC World and said that not only would they retaliate but they would also expedite their Nuclear desires. I couldn't believe it. They've admitted their intentions which will save the CIA billions in trying to ascertain the truth. I just wonder what they'll have left to fight back with after the USAF and USN have flattened everything.

:ok:

[knotaloud]

Pontious,

December '41, not '42. Typo error? Want to correct?

Otherwise, spot on. Thanks

[Skyg]

Hi Guys,

Coming back to the subject of interest of this topic, what some people said to be a paranoic idea a few days ago in the first posts... it's unluckily becoming a widespread subject in BBC and CNN....

That's why I have to suppose that the idea of attacking Iran is very much alive inside the US government...

Condolezza Rice and the word IRAN was in the front page of many English Newspapers, when I was in London 2 days back...

A precition attack as the one i heard of from US Sources, on Iranian sites, might turn up into a big response from iranian forces.

Did you realise guys where are the main american bases located in the gulf area???

JUST EXACTLY WHERE MANY AIRLINES OF THE REGION ARE......

I think, if this idea continue growing, and the attack becomes inminent, you'll hace to think twice on coming here, and the ones that are here, to flee aomewhere for sometime...

Though, I hope it doesnt happen....

Cheers,


:bored:

[Pontious]

Thanks Knotaloud.

:ok:

[Earl]

Listening to CNN tonight it appears this has taken one more step towards reality.
If diplomacy fails then it will effect us all in the area.
Its pretty much up to Europe to do the talks and make this disappear.
If this fails then it goes to the UN.
I only hope diplomacy prevails here, we dont ever want these fanatics to have these weapons.
I am sure if they had them before now they would have used them.
Its time for the those in Europe to get busy.
Bashing the Americans wont help anything.
We are all in this together.
I would rather lose my job here than see these people with Nukes.

[mutt]

I would rather lose my job here than see these people with Nukes.


I've dated one of "those" people, plus visited numerous parts of their country........

Now please explain whats makes them different from Pakistan and Is....... (oops censored...)



Mutt,

[Pontious]

Mutt

The problem isn't with the Iranian people, it's with their almost "Fundamentalist" Government and their desire to wipe out Israel. I can't understand Iran's determination for conflict if it isn't religion based, as many muslims claim, especially as Iranians aren't Arabs and they are mainly Shia wereas the Arabs are predominantly Sunni. The acts of terror committed against the Iraqi Shia communities by the Sunni shows the animosity between the two sects.

Their rhetoric, posturing and menacing almost threatening propaganda may be the way they are used to getting results in domestic politics but it won't stand up on the world stage. In a recent TV airing in Iran, they displayed their latest SSM's. Written on the nosecones of the (Nuclear/Biological/Chemical capable) missiles was a message which, when translated from Farsi, read "Death to Israel". Not once, ever, in the 40-odd years of the Cold War at the annual May-Day parades in Red Square did the Soviets put anything so provocative on their missiles that targetted Western Europe.

The European states negotiating with Iran won't put up with or appease those threats, neither will the U.S. and what do you think the Israel will do if they feel threatened with Nuclear anihlation? They will turn every suspected target into a pile of radioactive dust.

We are all too familiar with the U.S.'s policy t'wards threats, whether direct or perceived. The Israeli's however are a different species altogether. They flattened Osirak without warning the Iraqis, they reduced the PLO HQ in Tunis to rubble without consulting anybody, they snatched dozens of their own from the hands of murderous terrorists and a dictator in Entebbe. All these events had one thing in common- they all constitued a threat to Israeli citizens, whether European or Arab, whether Jew, Muslim or Christian,whether at home or abroad. Israel won't tolerate those kinds of threats. She, unlike the U.S., won't issue threats. She'll just strike. The U.S. is accountable to everyone. Israel is accountable to no-one.

The Mid-East doesn't need this kind of 'Loaded Gun' being brandished at the negotiating table. Personally I hope there is a diplomatic solution but I don't have a problem with a pre-emptive strike or series of surgical strikes just as long as they neutralise the threat totally and it's by the US OR Israel, not both. That only fuels the fire of mis-trust from the very people who's trust we are trying to gain.

A Nuclear armed Iran or any other fundamentalist regime for that matter is unthinkable and cannot be tolerated. I am neither Pro-Israeli nor Anti Israeli, just an ex-pat and I am deeply worried because I live in the Gulf area, downwind of any fallout, whether it be radioactive or political but I'd feel safer knowing these sites had been wiped off the face of the earth.

:ok:

[Earl]

Its not the Iranians themselves Mutt.
I have seen the Iranian F/A also in the training center, they are nice, very nice.
The problem is the fanatics with their sword rattling.
They are really unstable.
history has shown this.
They have to be shut down.
Even Europe agrees with this.
Maybe Iraq was questionable but this is not.
We have all seen what fanatics have done to the world.
How many innocent lives lost, how many jobs lost, time to take a stand here.
Its better to have to go home without a job than let these fanatics try and rule the world with the threats they impose.

[Semaphore Sam]

The problem is the fanatics with their sword rattling.
They are really unstable.
history has shown this.
They have to be shut down.
Even Europe agrees with this.
Maybe Iraq was questionable but this is not.
We have all seen what fanatics have done to the world.
How many innocent lives lost, how many jobs lost, time to take a stand here.
Its better to have to go home without a job than let these fanatics try and rule the world with the threats they impose.

Just read the above...Earl, thought better of you! Sounds like just one more Anti-American rant.

Sam

[FlyingCroc]

Yeah right. Now it is Iran that is the threath. Before some goatherders out of the cave flew modern airliners into buildings. For the first time in history steel skyscrapers collapsed from fire including a third building WTC3 which was not even hit by planes. But the goatherders were even smarter than that: They managed to stand down the WHOLE AMERICAN AIRDEFENSE for HOURS before crashing another airliner in Americas most guarded Pentagon (in a spectacular 270° 500MPH 2 feet AGL acrobatics), all done by a lousy pilot trained in Cessna 172's.
The US Intelligence was able to identify all the terroists 2 days later, imposing Patriot Act1 on the US population, invaded Afghanistan, imprisoned suspects in the new concentration camp Guantanamo Bay indefinitley. Furthermore Iraq was attacked with the big lie of WMD, which were never found. Torture, war, vote fraud, deception and complete disregard for international law.

NEXT TARGET: IRAN :yuk:

"Personally I hope there is a diplomatic solution but I don\'t have a problem with a pre-emptive strike or series of surgical strikes just as long as they neutralise the threat totally and it\'s by the US OR Israel, not both. "

We have seen this "surgical strikes", now 1400+ of our troops dead, over 8000 wounded, 100\'000 iraqis dead! :yuk:

[Pontious]

Actually Croc

I don't think the 1400+dead or 8000+ wounded US and COALLITION troops or the 100,000 dead Iraqi and murdered western and asian hostages were killed due to the surgical strikes. Do you? Because that is how your post reads.

:ok:

[Gnadenburg]

It will be interesting to see how far the Israeli Air Force has evolved referrence the likely strike on Iran. The nuclear facilities are at maximum range and their tanker resources are limited.

But unlike the Arabs whose air forces are often just for show, the Israelis maintain a high capability. I imagine they would have been preparing, equiping and training for a strike on Iran for the last 10 years.

It may well suit the Americans to secretly support an Israeli strike aswell. Reprisal strikes against Israel - Su24 and Shehab missile strikes - would lose their potency over the long distance to Israel. The SU24's would be easily shotdown by American fighters ( or Israelis closer to home ) in their long transit and the suface to surface missiles, with their launch failure rate, loss of accuracy at max range and the Israeli missile shield, may be an acceptable risk.

An American strike and consequent Iranian retaliation could be disasterous. Attacks on oil tankers, active support of Iraqi insurgency and missile strikes against the Gulf states would certainly slow the world economy with skyrocketing oil prices.

Pontius

I must add, that you rather lightly brush over the contibution of the Commonwealth in manpower, to the Defence of the Realm.

[Tristar]

I wish every one of you (99%) could read your posts and see how prejudice you are against a regime that has done nothing to any of you except what your western propaganda has led you to believe in terms of so called “sponsoring of terrorism”. On the other hand the Iranians and their so called fanatical regime had suffered sponsored wars and sanctions and abuse from the western world especially the Americans. I really wonder who is the terrorist???? I don’t blame the Iranians for trying to have the ability of producing nuclear power; and I don’t blame you lot for your ideology since you only listen/read news that is totally controlled by the very people that are the only lot that have nuclear capability and terrorizing and demolishing houses of poor, power less presents. But there again you wouldn’t see that sort of news, would you? You are all welcomed to my place for a nice freshly brewed coffee, it might wake you up.
HN
:(

[JJflyer]

Yip... Tha Americans are at it again. What is it that you screw things for yourselves around the ME and you do your best to screw it for rest of the Westeners as well...

I can't count the times that I have been nastily asked if I was an American. Upon telling that I am not and want nothing to do with Americans, their attitude has changed.

Unilateral US policies affect the whole world and it is time that US is and it's leadership is made accountable for their unilateral actions. US of A is a much bigger threat to world peace than Iran has or will never be.

Sorry about the negative post, but I have just about had it. It is easy to comment from the safety of Arkansas or some other place, but I sit here right next door. It's like this. Y throw a rock in the bath tub, waves will come over the edge. Same will happen with UAE and Persian Gulf


JJ

[FlyingCroc]

"Personally I hope there is a diplomatic solution but I don't have a problem with a pre-emptive strike or series of surgical strikes just as long as they neutralise the threat totally and it's by the US OR Israel, not both. "

Thats what you think Pontius. Sorry it came across this way. I just don't think Iran would be such an easy matter like the US thinks. Furthermore Israelis attacking Iran would probably the most disastrous strategy at this moment. The Gulf states and the US carriers are in missile strike range.

Can anyone imagine the panic that would break out in thiese peaceful Gulf states? Wjhat about the world oil supplies?

But as I quoted earlier I think this allready in the agenda of the Bush Regime and the neocons arrogantly lined out their strategy years ago in the books they published.

God bless the World (from America)

[Earl]

JJ flyer, I am right here in Jed KSA with my family.
Arkansas?
It is a concern to all of us here.
Last I heard their were close to 30,000 Americans here in KSA.

[sajko]

I sure hope that Iran gets nuclear weapons. Iranians are proud and honest people and they deserve to have capability of defending themselves from policy of US and Israel if attacked. At this moment Israel is the biggest threat to world peace and in the Middle East is needed power to counter balance those people in Israel. With Iran as nuclear power they will finally understand that they have to stop with repression of Palestinians and sit and seriously discuss peace with Palestine. There is no other way for peace in the Middle East. I hope that happens as soon as possible.

[AMF]

"Yip... Tha Americans are at it again. What is it that you screw things for yourselves around the ME and you do your best to screw it for rest of the Westeners as well...

I can't count the times that I have been nastily asked if I was an American. Upon telling that I am not and want nothing to do with Americans, their attitude has changed.

Unilateral US policies affect the whole world and it is time that US is and it's leadership is made accountable for their unilateral actions. US of A is a much bigger threat to world peace than Iran has or will never be.

Sorry about the negative post, but I have just about had it. It is easy to comment from the safety of Arkansas or some other place, but I sit here right next door. It's like this. Y throw a rock in the bath tub, waves will come over the edge. Same will happen with UAE and Persian Gulf"

JJ

Well, I'll comment from the relative un-safety of KSA, right "next-door" as you put it.

When I'm nastily asked if I'm an American, it's always by a European. Arabs are much friendlier by far, and certainly not as condescending. I'd rather spend my time with them any day, and do.

To find the origins of the screwed-upness of the Middle East, all you have to do is remember that they were all once Euro-held colonies and/or protectorates, those "expert at running the world" mother countries drawing lines on maps or far-off lands, inventing countries without regard to anything except how it balanced power in Europe. The U.S. certainly didn't invent the strife that was there. Iraq was Brit...the original border dispute with Kuwait was due to one of these magical lines. The Baathist ideology was/is a direct form and export of Euro Socialism. Iraq was armed mainly by the Soviets, with a little help from the French.

The Brits and Euros were the main proponents for the formation of Israel...the primary de-stablilizing event in the region, desiring to rid themselves of as many Jews as possible. The French even built their weapons grade material-making nuclear reactor, just like they built one for Saddam years later.

Of course, now we see all of Europe putting blinders on with regards to the consequences of their own nation-building actions, washing their hands of it, and spend their time prating on and endlessly on about "how the U.S. has messed things up". Yes, you had a perfectly-run little sandox to play in, didn't you?

Maybe we should hold you accountable for YOUR actions. In the meantime, I'm glad you won't have anything to do with me if we ever cross paths, because the feeling is certainly mutual.

[Gnadenburg]

The prospect of Mullahs having access to an Islamic nuclear bomb unnerving for infidels.

Realistically, the residents of the MidEast ( Arabs and Persians ) should be the most concerned with the possibility of nuclear proliferation. The instability and sometimes madness of the region, makes apocalyptic nuclear scenarios fathomable!

Israel, backed against a wall by Mullahs threatening it's destruction with crude nuclear weapons, won't wait for for reason and diplomacy. If neccessary and conventional weapons not capable, it would use nuclear weapons against Iran.

Now Iran has the bomb, the Saudi's will want it too. Proud Egyptians wont want to be left out either. Who would not want nuclear deterrence in the mad house of the MidEast?

The Doomsday clock is ticking again- though it could be contained within the region until long range delivery platforms available.


Tristar

I would be honoured to join you for coffee. Could we talk about free press and human rights in Bahrain? And what were all those former Iranian residents, now residing in Bahrain, escaping a few years ago? The Mullahs who now want nuclear weapons!

AMF

Fair post. The mess of French and British colonialism conveniently forgotten here.

[JJflyer]

Dear AMF

1. Country I come from has never held colonies but rather has been part of several others as a colony or autonomous region. We never had anything to do with drawing borders anywhere in the world.

2. We fought communism and Socialism both in a civil war and 2 wars against Soviet Union, Mind you we are the only country that defeated them not just twice militarily but also politically during the 45 some years that followed until the collapse of Soviet Union.

3. We have been involved in the Middle-East peace process before you could even spell the word. We recognice the right for both Israel and Palestinians right for self-rule. We never encouraged our Jewish people to leave or move out neither did we deport them to Germany during the 40's.

4. It is not Americans as people I am critical about (Well the 50 some % that re-elected Bush proved to be dumber than I thought) Rather your government. Never asked if one was an American or not. I've got many American friends, all of them well travelled and educated and share my views about politics. Actually I picked some of this stuff from them. Mind you they did not vote for Bush either. In your books they would probably be "liberal trash"

5. I agree that nations responsible for colonialism and random border drawing that causes mosnt of the problems these days in Africa and other parts of the world should be held accoubtable. Perhaps US should threaten them with military action.



AMF said:

The Baathist ideology was/is a direct form and export of Euro Socialism. Iraq was armed mainly by the Soviets, with a little help from the French

Saddams Baath party had nothing to do with the Social-democratic societys of Europe. It was based on a Soviet style totalitarian style fear culture with Mukhabarat rounding up people randomly.
Other than the French, I remember old Don Rumsfeld visiting Iraq in the 80's being buddy buddy with Saddam, not much talked about these das now is it?
During the 80's US was competing to be the largest supplier of weapons and other aid to Iraq and came close with the French. Facts and figures available.

Yes, you had a perfectly-run little sandox to play in, didn't you

Perhaps yby that you mean when we have sent UN peace keepers to places like Lebanon, Cyprus, and yest Iraq after last war as playing in the sandBOX (I spent my time in the Mil).

Regardless of the sources of the problems in the Middle-East. US sabre rattling is not making it any easier to be a westener here. Still I rather come to places like KSA, Iran, Algeria, Syria and Lebanon than travel to USA.

Like some one wise said once 'Ignorance is Blizz"


JJ

[Pontious]

Gnadenburg

I'm sorry if you thought I brushed over Commonwealth countries. Would you like me to list them instead?

:ok:

[Tristar]

Gnadenburg

I am in Bahrain today, it will be my pleasure to meet up with you, and yes we could talk about any subject that is allowed under the current régime which your lot, have imposed upon us!
Your name suggests that you are Jewish; you need not fear me, I have Bahraini Jewish friends that I hold very dear.

“And what were all those former Iranian residents, now residing in Bahrain, escaping a few years ago? The Mullahs who now want nuclear weapons”

The above part is not clear. If you will be so kind to elaborate on; then it would be a pleasure for me to put the records right for you, either in this forum or privately over a cup of coffee.
:ok:

[oicur12]

US foreign policy towards Iran (like NK and Iraq) is shrouded in misdirection and misinformation and in many cases, lies. The Bush Administration is fighting a battle against an age old enemy, enunciated by Dr. Joseph Goebbels over 60 years ago. The true enemy of the state is the truth.

Would an acquiescent media, compliant congress and largely ignorant population have supported the neocon agenda in Iraq had they been privy to the truth – namely, no WMD, no yellowcake from Niger, alloy tubes not used for nuclear weapons and no Iraqi links to Sep11?

Goebbels would have been awfully proud of Bush.

There is no doubt that we are approaching Hubbard’s Peak more rapidly than most world leaders would have us believe. The USA, China, India, Russia, the Caucuses, North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Israel, Venezuela, Cuba and Western Europe are all jockeying for position in a bi-polar world of alliances that will look very different from the cold war.

No war is ever fought for one or two simple reasons. There is always a raft of issues that will be dealt with through conflict. The war in Iraq will have many positive results for US oil companies, US dollar hegemony, the US economy and the ability for the US to project military power into oil and gas fields in the Caspian Sea. Most importantly, invading Iraq has successfully demonstrated to terror supporting countries such as Pakistan and KSA that the US is deadly serious in its resolve to re-shape events in the oil rich Gulf region.

Clearly the US has detailed plans to attack Iran. Probably Syria also. But this should not be earth shattering news. The US (and Russia during the cold war) would have plans to invade any number of strategically or geopolitically important countries. Such is life in the shadow of a cold war.

Iran is like Iraq, a small chess piece in a broader game being played between “old” Europe and its allies and America and its allies. The game has little to do with nuke/bio/chem weapons or long range missiles that threaten “our way of life”.

[FlyingCroc]

Quote from Pontious: "We are all too familiar with the U.S.'s policy t'wards threats, whether direct or perceived. The Israeli's however are a different species altogether. They flattened Osirak without warning the Iraqis, they reduced the PLO HQ in Tunis to rubble without consulting anybody, they snatched dozens of their own from the hands of murderous terrorists and a dictator in Entebbe. All these events had one thing in common- they all constitued a threat to Israeli citizens, whether European or Arab, whether Jew, Muslim or Christian,whether at home or abroad. Israel won't tolerate those kinds of threats. She, unlike the U.S., won't issue threats. She'll just strike. The U.S. is accountable to everyone. Israel is accountable to no-one. "



"By way of deception, thou shalt do war" the motto of the Mossad.

That explains a lot and makes me feel a lot safer! Just like the arrested israelis on September 11 as they cheered the WTC-Attacks
:yuk:

[Skyg]

Hey Guys,


I wonder some things and I do wonder...


1) Why now, and not before?? (did they become a threat in the last 6 months????)

2) Why the US should take the lead on striking, rather than a UN, and diplomatic instance prevail...???

3) IS NORTH KOREA COMING AFTER????????????????


I'm sorry guys, but i'm sick of the US to be the police of the globe... I want a very strong UN, and diplomatic resolutions....

HOW FAR ARE WE GONNA GO WITH THIS FREEDOM POLICY??

Be careful, tomorrow, i can tell you who will be the threats... PAKISTAN, CUBA, COLOMBIA, MOROCCO... who knows...

It can be your country guys...


Though, I don't support terrorism. But as I stated before, hope this situation is resolved, in a different way.

See ya ,


:bored:

[FlyingCroc]

Made in the USA

This time it is not Cuba, Pakistan etc...

It is Iran (maybe Syria), all on the agenda of the neocons in Washington.

It is not if but when!

[FlyingCroc]

The American press, compliant to the end, will dutifully spread the Bushies' propaganda. The liberals in the media, fearful of being called unpatriotic, or worse, liberal, will give the Bushies the slant they crave. The conservatives in the media will cheerfully continue on their flag-waving, apple-polishing way. They'll parade their red, white and blue "patriotism" much like a hooker with a cross around her neck parades her virtue.

To prove to the world how virtuous they are, the Bushies will soon go to the United Nations and ask for its cooperation in letting us throttle Iran. Their request will be couched in terms making it impossible for the U.N. to comply. When the U.N. rejects the insincere entreaty, the Bushies will badmouth it, and then declare that circumstances have become so dire that America must once again go it alone.

And then the bombs will burst in air, and the rockets will red glare.

I dearly hope I am wrong in my predictions, but it seems that history, and the pathological predilections of the Bush administration, make an attack on Iran inevitable.

Harley Sorensen, Special to SF Gate.com

Monday, February 14, 2005:yuk:

[Gnadenburg]

Are you all comfortable with a nuclear armed Iran?

Or is this just Yank bashing? ( good fun I might add ).

A likely scenario is Iranian intermediate range ballistic missiles, entrusted not into air force, but with the Iranian Revolutionary Guard. The same unit that quells rebellion and protest in Iran with miltary force and whose foreign arm is aligned and provides training for Hiballah, Islamic Jihad and the murder in the Sudan.

So, when Iran becomes wealthy courtesy of China buying up it's huge gas/oil reserves ( whilst earlier vetoing UN action against Iran's weapons program )and the Revolution disintegrates, those entrusted and set up to PROTECT the revolution are left with the prospect of hanging from lamp posts or unleashing their terror.

A final hurrah by the mad Mullahs of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard ( whose units cleared Iraqi minefields with thousands of young boys in the name of Jihad ) would be to strike Israel or US supporting Gulf states with nuclear weapons. All in the name of religion.



JJflyer

Incredibly self-righteous and anti- American post.

I assume you are from Finland. Militarily, the Italians of Scandanavia!

I did not note any Americans in the Waffen SS. However Finland had it's own SS battalions. The retreat from Russia was brutal - say no more .

Tristar

Why do you feel the need to bring Judaism into the debate? Would my religion matter?

[sajko]

I would be very comfortable with nuclear armed Iran as long as Israel has the same right. Why would they be allowed to have nukes and whole world is playing dumb like they don't exist? Why not the same international pressures on Jewish state to came forward with their nuclear program and get rid of it? In that case we could have nuclear free Middle East and pressure on Iran would be justified. I don't see a reason why one side would be allowed to have nukes and others denied the same right.

[Tristar]

Gnadenburg


Why do you feel the need to bring Judaism into the debate? Would my religion matter?

The whole point of mentioning your religion is to confirm that I have nothing against it, and unlike you I am not bashing other peoples religion or any particular religious sect within that religion.
Please stop going off in a tangent, go back and read all my previous posts and reply to them.
By the way the invitation for the coffee is still open, maybe I can knock some sense into you without the use of any nuclear weapons.
:ok:

[Gnadenburg]

Tristar

There you go again- "my" religion. That is what it is all about isn't it? Islam verus Judaism.

The Islamic Republic of Iran is a regime. It openly advocates the destruction of Israel and despite funding and training of terrorists, has failed. It is developing nuclear weapons to force it's influence in the region, defend itself against US aggression, replace block obsolescence in it's conventional military and quite possibly, threaten Israel.

Israel will be twitchy on it's nuclear trigger with open threats from Iran.

Iran can not be allowed to have nuclear weapons as this Islam versus Judaism thing could bring unprecedented suffering to the region.

I must decline your invitation for coffee; your part of the world too risky!

;)

[JJflyer]

Dear Gnadenburg just a few comments on your critique.



Incredibly self-righteous and anti- American post.

I assume you are from Finland. Militarily, the Italians of Scandanavia!

I did not note any Americans in the Waffen SS. However Finland had it's own SS battalions. The retreat from Russia was brutal - say no more



First. Post was a direct response to a post by another member on this forum. You think I'd be serving rosy compliments? There's a limit and I have reached the end of my understaniding of Dubyas politics. However it might be justified to say that my first post on this subject was "Bit" sharp. Do not mix anti-Bush and anti US-politics with being anti-American people (Excluded the 51% for Gdubya).

Second. Your assesment of Finland militarily is as bad as your knowledge of history of the region. Just open a history book next time.

Third. Finland did have ONE batallion in the Waffen-SS between spring 1941 and spring 1943. Batallion was on the fromt from December 1941 to January 1943.
Sending a Batallion to Germany was a political desicion for one part to obtain equipment from Germany and have security guarantees for keeping Soviets busy South of Leningrad.
Again open a history book...

JJ

Could we just get back on track on this and talk how attack on Iran and Syria affects US living in Middle-East, please!

[Skyg]

Guys!!,

Let's focus on the matter, 'cos by the time this american "corrective" action starts, none of us will even think about the Luftwaffe, the SS, or Scandinavian Countries.

The object of this forum is to evaluate the consequencies of this in the region's airline industry and our daily lives.

What it was stated as a crazy subject, and paranoic, by some of you one month ago, now is getting worst and worst ....

I've last week on to Doha, Qatar, and I saw and HEARD the distinctive Falcons around, even the international Apt and over the gulf.

This is what the press is saying nowadays: >>>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Iran to aid Syria against threats

Syria and Iran said they were facing "numerous challenges"
Iran has vowed to back Syria against "challenges and threats" as both countries face strong US pressure.
"We are ready to help Syria on all grounds to confront threats," Iranian Vice-President Mohammad Reza Aref said after meeting Syrian PM Naji al-Otari.

But Washington said that if Iran and Syria had aimed their remarks at the US they were "misreading the issue".

Both countries should focus on meeting their international obligations, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said.

"Their problem is not with the United States, it's with the international community. Both Syria and Iran ... need to abide by the commitments they have made," he said.

The US has accused Tehran of seeking nuclear weapons and has withdrawn its envoy to Damascus.

To point to Syria in a terrorist act that aims at destabilising both Syria and Lebanon is truly like blaming the US for 9/11

Buthaina Shaaban
Syrian cabinet minister

US tensions with Syria soared after Monday's killing of former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri in a bombing, although Washington has not directly accused Damascus of responsibility.

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice told a Senate foreign affairs committee hearing the decision to recall the ambassador was a culmination of a "long series of problems" with Syria - notably allegations that Damascus has harboured Iraqi insurgents and allowed them to cross into Iraq to fight against US troops.

Earlier, the Russian Defence Ministry confirmed it was discussing the possibility of selling missiles to Syria.

Talks are said to be focusing on a short-range anti-aircraft missile system, known as Strelets.

'Numerous challenges'

Washington is considering new sanctions against Syria because of its refusal to withdraw its 14,000 troops from Lebanon.



US Assistant Secretary of State William Burns, visiting Beirut for Mr Hariri's funeral on Wednesday, called for a "complete and immediate withdrawal".

But Syrian Expatriate Affairs Minister Buthaina Shaaban said she was "baffled" by the US reaction to the killing.

"To point to Syria in a terrorist act that aims at destabilising both Syria and Lebanon is truly like blaming the US for 9/11," she told the BBC.

The minister said Mr Hariri had been a "great ally" to Syria and his death was "a scandal against Syria and against Lebanon".

'Not US enemies'

BBC diplomatic correspondent Jonathan Marcus says the Syrian authorities are looking increasingly isolated, with only the Iranians speaking up on their behalf.

In Tehran, Syrian Prime Minister Otari said his meeting with the Iranian leadership was taking place at a "very important and delicate time, with Syria and Iran facing numerous challenges".

Iran's vice-president said his country would stand with Syria.

"Our Syrian brothers are facing specific threats and we hope they can benefit from our experience. We are ready to give them any help necessary," Mr Aref said.

However, Syria's ambassador in the US denied that the common front was an alliance against Washington.

"We are not the enemies of the United States, and we do not want to be drawn into such an enmity," Imad Moustapha told CNN.

Washington has hinted it may take military action against Iran over its nuclear programme, which the US says is aimed at producing a bomb.

[Pontious]

Gnadenburg

Surely your post should read

"...that state of countries AFTER British and French colonialism..."
...or Dutch... or Spanish...or Portuguese... or Italian...

Meanwhile back to the thread....


I hope the US or Israelis attack Iran soon because the EU negoitiators are Political Eunuchs.

I hope the Lebbo's ask the UN/EU/NATO to remove the useless and impotent 14,000 Syrian "peacekeepers" (p1sstakers morelike).

That a renegade terrorist group takes responsibility for the Beirut Bomb otherwise it will smell of a "State Sanctioned Act" with fingers pointing at either Syria (to wield their big stick of influence at the domestic calls for their withdrawl) or Iran (to deflect Outside World attentionfrom its intentions. Or a joint effort... and then we are in trouble.

Oh and Gnadenberg the battle to come is Islam vs. Everybody else.

:ok:

[FlyingCroc]

That a renegade terrorist group takes responsibility for the Beirut Bomb otherwise it will smell of a "State Sanctioned Act" with fingers pointing at either Syria (to wield their big stick of influence at the domestic calls for their withdrawl) or Iran (to deflect Outside World attentionfrom its intentions.
Or a joint effort of ISRAEL and the USA .... and then we are in trouble.

Boy are we in trouble then, you bet!:yuk:

[oicur12]

US policy towards Syria has less to do with “the war on terror” and more to do with the Mosul – Haifa oil pipeline. Re-opening this link will not only allow US tankers to access Iraqi sweet crude in the Med instead of the more dangerous Gulf, but would also give Israel access to Iraqi oil freeing them from depending on Russian oil.

Only days before the war in Iraq, Israeli Infrastructure Minister Joseph Paritzky referred to the war in Iraq as being critical to “providing Israel with alternative energy sources.”

Both the US and Israel clearly have a stake in demonizing Syria. But not for the reasons being reported.

Standby to see Israeli bombers dropping newly acquired JDAM’s on “terrorist training camps” in Syria.

[Earl]

If it were to transpire not too much we can do.
Pointing fingers wont do us much good.
I do continue to see the US government advising us to urgently leave.
In the mean time I do not see them telling us that we will help you find a job once returning home.
Our safety on one hand they put out the warnings, If we did follow their advice we would be in the unemployment lines.
Only then to tell us we dont qauilify because we worked abroad.
Better off to be a Mexican, swim across the river, be a illegal imagrant, then we would get a drivers license, quailify for welfare and be assisted with government housing.
So much for being a honest working American.
Some how I feel that if every American could experiance what we go through as an expat then things would change.
Most of our money goes back home to fuel the economyand we are not blocking jobs for other Americans.
Yet I do understand that these fanatics cannot be allowed to threaten the world with these weapons.
This I have to agree with.
I dont know how 911 effected you, but it really took a big hit over the most of us.
We had good flying jobs with good contracts, even as an expat.
Now most of these companies took advantage in the downturn of the industry and use this to their advantage.
We are coming back but its a long uphill battle.
Lets not go back down that road again by not doing anything.

[Skyg]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Unluckily Mr Bush admitted the real possibility and intentions of attacking Iran, mostly sure followed by Syria...

I Wonder if the people that hasn't been in the Middle East, understand what does it mean.

Specially, when we talk about still quite nuked Iran. ALMOST ALL THE COASTAL COUNTRIES IN THE GULF ARE IN RANGE.

UAE, QATAR, BAHRAIN, KUWAIT...

I don't know haw the things are gonna be, but i suppose is not funny at all..., and we'll definitly have to flee...

I did also lost my job for 9-11, so I understand what you guys are talking about.

The worst thing is that Iran has missiles, and the intention of attacking back, and my fear is attack ON CIVILIANS on the Arab US supporter countries.

Just think that Iranian maritime boundary line is not much far than 80 NM from UAE and Qatari territorial water.

LEt's hope eve'thing is solved the diplomatic way.

INSHA'LLAH!....


:\

[sidman]

I know we entered the war late but alot of our people gave there lives and if I listened to you guys we did nothing to help in WW2. This is an anti American web-site , you hate our airplanes and our people. You would like to see us sent packing in Iraq and it is nice to sit and play monday morning quaterback from your home PC. But we! Not you were attacked on Sept 11 and the war on terror is what this is all about.. Several countries said Iraq had WMD before the war not just the USA. Several troops form Iraq were cought in the first few days of the war with chem-gear!! Why is that when we do not use Chem-weapons?

You guys love to hate Americans us Americans only want not to live through another 9-11. I am sorry if you do not agree but that is the way I feel. We give alot to the world in the way of aid what do you do to help?? Nothing all you do is complain about what we do.. If you have a better way of dealing with things than step up and deal with it.. The view is always better from the cheap seats!!

Before you all tell me that you live in the middle east and I don't know what you are going through!! I have been ther and done that and loved it.

1 case of sid 100rats

[FFFlyer]

The facts are that the Iranians will develop nuclear weapons unless the US or Israel stop them, which I don't think will happen. Even if they bomb them they won't destroy them: they are too well hidden in various underground bunkers. Once Iran has them they will start to threaten there neighbours and it will precipitate a nuclear arms race in the ME. I also don't think the mullah's regime will fall; it is too well established in most facets of life in Iran and still has a far amount of popular support.

The other source of instability is the unsustainable rate of population growth in KSA, Egypt, Oman etc. Over the next 50 years these countries are projected to record some of the highest rates in the world. Poverty will grow. It is already there in KSA. The UNDEP have been working there for several years in poverty alleviation programmes. Large numbers of unemployed young men living in poverty. A breeding ground for the next generation of terrorists.

In the short term take a job and the money that goes with it - but I certainly wouldn't buy a house there (apart from the dodgy construction standards).

[FlyingCroc]

Bovine excrement SIDMAN:yuk:
Go and educate yourself first, and hopefully not from those mediawhores ABCNBCFOXCNN etc which sell the bovine excrement wholesale 24 hours daily!
Prevent another 911 then G.W. Bush should not have voted in again:yuk:
I hope you feel good in your comfy chair with thousands of our boys dying in utter stupid, useless war in Iraq. THERE WERE NEVER ANY WMD's, even the US government admits it now! Maybe they find it in IRAN :yuk:

[FFFlyer]

FC, you don't get it do you - revolution in KSA = no oil =world shortage = world slump 1930's style .
That was the logic behind going into Iraq. However,as Thomas Friedman nealty put in a recent article, the USA's appetite for oil is creating its trade deficit and funding some of the people who would like to destroy it. Why can't you all drive compact turbo diesels like most of Europe, then you wouldn't need Middle Eastern oil. Then I might be out of a job - not such a good idea after all.......

[FlyingCroc]

Yeah sure, a revolution in KSA! Who? Al Qaida or even Osama Bin Laden (have to dig him out, haven't seen him since Bush's vote fraud 2004). What a load of bovine excrement. Does nobody see what these gang in Washington is planning for our future? 911-Afganistan-Iraq-....Iran? :yuk:

[FlyingCroc]

What a surprise! First Syria.

U.S. gives Israel “go-ahead” to strike Syria
3/2/2005 4:45:00 PM GMT


"We will be prepared to talk with others ... with the Israelis", Rice said

Bush’s administration gave Israel the go-ahead to attack Syria in retaliation to Tel Aviv bombing that took place last weekend, killing 5 Israelis, the Hebrew daily ‘Yediot Ahronot’ reported.

http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=7210

[FFFlyer]

You appear to be implying that the US planned 9/11. There is little point in reasoned debate with you then.

Interesting you have to keep on mentioning excrement. Freudian slip?

I agree with you, sound analysis, the regime in KSA is extremely stable, that's why they have been targeting and killing Westerners, as in fact Al Jazeera encourages it listeners to do in the Arabic broadcasts.

[FlyingCroc]

It is not Aljazeera that is claiming this new but the Israeli newspaper: Hebrew daily ‘Yediot Ahronot’

[DesperadoOS]

shame on you mr. bush!

how long you want to fool the world. amerika, please open your eyes.

UN troops are in the middle east region since 30 years.
but now, imidiately Syria is gonna be a enemy??????

oh, i forgot the way to the mediteran sea. i´m sure you gonna do a good busines when the oil goes direct through pipes.

what will be your next target? the world?

regard

DesperadoOS:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[Skyg]

Any country with enough crude will be next!..... :cool:

[Skyg]

Hello guys,

Apparently what we talked before, about Terrorism, US, Petroleum, and Misc, is taking its first real Effect on the emerging aviation market in the ME.

Sadly, a car bomb hit Doha, killing 1 injuring others.

So... this is the concequence of all discussed before.

I think we are starting to see an expansion in the Insurgents movements, with the same violence that they have in Irak, in the Middle Eastern US allies.

And as I thought it could happen, the aviation market is directly affected by this matter.

DOH is the HUB of Qatar Airways. I hope we don't have to hear more of this on this Area...

Bye.:(

[FFFlyer]

Yes, it's ALL the fault of the US and no one else is responsible for their own actions. What a get out.
I wonder if Al Jazeera is calling that suicide bomber a martyr like the ones in Palestine and Iraq. I wonder if the Saudi Ambassador is writing a poem about him as he did about the Palestinian girl suicide bomber.
Funny isn't it, when it's on your own doorstep it isn't so glamorous. I wonder which Gulf State is next....
BTW, the US only sources about 20% of its oil from the
Middle East, unlike Europe.

[FlyingCroc]

And the US uses at least 20% of world oil resources as a small world nation!