Naval Apache ??

[Navaleye]

I just spotted this on the RN website - first I had heard of it. Check out the last sentence. Me thinks they jest.

In July 1995, the Apache Longbow was selected to fulfil the UK Army Attack Helicopter requirement and the first Apache entered service in January 2001with the 1st Battalion of the 227th Aviation Regiment. A total of 67 are on order with Initial Operating Capability scheduled for late 2004. Powered by two Rolls Royce / Turbomeca RTM322 engines, the Apache is equipped with the latest in target acquisition sensors, electronic countermeasures and precision guided munitions. The Apache weapons payload can be fully tailored for a particular mission, for example when operating in the Close Air Support (CAS) role, it can carry a mixture of Hellfire missiles, air-air missiles and cannon rounds. The procurement of a navalised version of the AH-64 is currently being considered and would significantly increase the RN’s maritime strike capability.

[hyd3failure]

me thinks they do not jest.....me thinks its true !


But what you have to ask yourself is......WHY ?

[airborne_artist]

1. Think of it as a very fast patrol boat that can be uplifted as/where needed. The Soviets had 100's of OSAs that would have been very effective at coastal defence/attack.

2. Excellent at supporting amphibious forces.

3. Prevent (and destroy) USS Cole type attacks.

4. More effective than a Wessex V with twin fixed forward firing GPMGs - yes, Junglies did have such things.

[hyd3failure]

1. Think of it as a very fast patrol boat that can be uplifted as/where needed. The Soviets had 100's of OSAs that would have been very effective at coastal defence/attack. or how about saving money and using something we already have....such as a Lynx

2. Excellent at supporting amphibious forces.

...again, I'd like to save the tax payer millions by suggesting we utilise an aircraft proven and already available.

3. Prevent (and destroy) USS Cole type attacks. ....and again, a role that the Lynx is comfortable with....

4. More effective than a Wessex V with twin fixed forward firing GPMGs - yes, Junglies did have such things ... and again...why not use current equipment.

[Navaleye]

I have to agree with hyd3failure, the Lynx is more than up to the job and better suited to flight deck ops, why on earth do we need the worlds most expensive anti-tank helo on a ship?

[Ian Corrigible]

Thought the plan was that 3 Commando Brigade would take 8 Apaches from the existing order to replace the Lynx Mk 7s currently used by CHF ?

The type has already undertaken initial SHOL trials aboard Ocean, and is due to re-embark in September in support of Argonaut '05.

I/C

[BossEyed]

Either Geoff H has just found an unopened piggy-bank under his bed, or the RN website is having a brainf@rt and getting confused with the long standing marinisation requirement for Apache AH Mk.1

It's not just OCEAN that has been graced with the beast; SHOL trials on RFA ARGUS have also been successfully conducted.

[Lee Jung]

Just because we have a lynx at the moment doesn't make it the prime contender as it's own replacement.

In an era when most time spent is on PCO/relief ops a shipborne aircraft with a larger cabin is needed.

In an ideal world this would be an NH90, a redundant Merlin capable of taking something like hellfire/ cabin mounted .50 cals (and use the 44 Mk1s we have unless we need a 1:22 advantage against the 2 Iranian kilos).

The plain fact is - If Wastelands can fit hellfire to a super-lynx they can fit it to a Merlin. Lets use what we have and use the budget elsewhere.

The days of Lynx have passed.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

1. Is the idea of Apache at sea really a new one?
2. Are 847 NAS going to get them or will RN/RM pilots/others be posted to the AAC units?
3. Surely the cannon (can't remember calibre) could be very useful?

By the way, the USN are intended to use cannon carried by helicopters for disposing of mines on or near the surface, by using supercavitating (whatever that means) ammunition. Perhaps we could do the same, given the cuts to MCMV and Minehunter numbers?

[crossbow]

Thankfully the days of the Lynx are not yet over. Howabout a Lynx 3/8 with hellfire... Outrageous...? maybe not so.

I'm not sur ehwre this thread has gone but we seem to have found a rabbit hole.... I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting we replace Lynx with the Apache... thats a daft idea.

Nope, Lynx will be replaced by Lynx. No doubt abuot that one.

[teeteringhead]

long standing marinisation requirement for Apache AH Mk.1 ..which will be neither cheap nor easy - if indeed sensibly achievable...

....the Spams never seriously bothered, using the Cobra instead for such ops, so much original (=expensive) work would be required...

[snafu]

I'm in shock.....I've just read a post from WEBF about Naval Aviation and he didn't mention the SHAR!!!! :E

[crossbow]

yup....I concur the note about WEBF failing to bring the SHAR into the thread...however, his comment ref

By the way, the USN are intended to use cannon carried by helicopters for disposing of mines on or near the surface, by using supercavitating (whatever that means) ammunition. Perhaps we could do the same, given the cuts to MCMV and Minehunter numbers


No need for that....The RN do it already. Thats an old tactic that has been around for many years.... IIRC that the Wasp used it and it has been passed down to the present day.

[BossEyed]

..which will be neither cheap nor easy - if indeed sensibly achievable...

SIGH :rolleyes:

We're not talking about turning Apache into a small ship's flight replacement, here. 'Marinisation' for that platform is to allow it to operate from the likes of OCEAN in support of ops ashore etc, and hence to ensure it doesn't get throughly trashed by the environment whilst doing so.

It already has been achieved; you don't think the trials detachments, over a significant period of time and with a significant number of DLs to the ships, were undertaken with an unmarinised airframe, do you? Just one example: the UK Apaches, uniquely, are designed, and were delivered from the outset, with manual blade fold.

For all that these forums slag off Contractors and DPA, the work done to modify the aircraft and to come up with protective and preventative procedures for the airframe and systems has been undertaken well and effectively. Yes, the ops to the deck are inevitably constrained in some ways in order to respect the capabilities of the aircraft/ship combination, but that's true of your Dark Blue aircraft as well (of whatever Nation).

As for Cobra: Are we the USA? (No) Have we more than one air arm with similar equipment? (No) Could we afford Cobra as well as Apache? (No) So, your point is...?

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Crossbow

No need for that....The RN do it already. Thats an old tactic that has been around for many years.... IIRC that the Wasp used it and it has been passed down to the present day

How? What? With a GPMG?

[STANDTO]

Clearly, the way forward is to paint the Apache blue and yellow, and utilise them in the Police air support role.

Early resolution of pursuits would be interesting

[pr00ne]

WEBF,

or Navaleye, whatever........................................

You ask;

How? What? With a GPMG?


Wasp did it with AS12, Lynx does it with Sea Skua.

The AAC is to comit 4 Apache to marinised operations, from one of the existing squadrons, available as needed.

[Navaleye]

Pr00ne, Sea Skua is not all that effective against very small as was discovered in GW1 due to its flight profile. It has a habit of flying straight over them. Its also too big and expensive for that job. What is needed is something like a Hellfire which engages its target from above.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Sea Skua can be used against mines (ie underwater)? Are you sure? Perhaps M'learned friend needs to read the question more carefully.....

I was talking about something like this. (http://www.ctechdefense.com/ramics.html)

[hyd3failure]

Pr00ne, Sea Skua is not all that effective against very small as was discovered in GW1 due to its flight profile. It has a habit of flying straight over them. Its also too big and expensive for that job. What is needed is something like a Hellfire which engages its target from above. #


Rubbish - The reason ther isn't an Iraqi Navy is because of Sea Skua. If it hadn't been for Seaskua GW2 would have been very different.

[Navaleye]

The first two missed their intended targets and fllew straight over them no doubt causing brown trousers amongst the occupants. £200k down the tube.

[Lee Jung]

One squadron of AH is 'double-hatted' as an AMPHIBIOUS squadron and have CHF reps both as instructors and ops staff to populate knowledge.

It is intended that AH will support COMATG/3 Cdo Bde and as already stated work has been done to ensure AH can operate from RN ships. However the type of build precludes full marinisation.

The focus of the work now is to foster interoperability and knowledge not only in the AAC, but among the amphib battle staffs to make best use of this capable asset.

[MightyGem]

Clearly, the way forward is to paint the Apache blue and yellow, and utilise them in the Police air support role.
We have one already! Even if it's made of wood and hanging from the office ceiling. :(