Lets fly Jet starrrr! not if you want to keep your job!

[Ultralights]

In todays paper! i must admit, i have never heard a good word about J* in any paper, wonder why?




Plane crazy

January 16, 2005
A WOMAN lost her job and dozens of angry holidaymakers mobbed the Jetstar counter at Sydney airport yesterday after a one-hour flight turned into a 17-hour debacle.

Flight JQ229 from Coolangatta to Sydney on Friday night was delayed by nearly an hour, then unable to land in Sydney due to strong winds. It was diverted to Newcastle.

Passengers were given the option of taking a bus to Sydney on Friday or staying in Newcastle and flying back yesterday morning.

But the flight, which took their luggage, left without any passengers, and they were forced to take a coach back to Sydney.

"We're just so angry about the lies that they told us," Michael Holliman of Rosebery said. "My wife's freaking out. We had our keys in the bag so couldn't even get into our house. That's why we stayed with our luggage in the first place."

The bus arrived at Sydney shortly before 1pm and furious customers unsuccessfully demanded a refund.

A Jetstar representative threatened to call security and told passengers to contact customer relations when they got home.

"We're all fuming," Stella Tsioulos of Baulkham Hills said. "We're here to demand our money back. We were blatantly lied to. It's the first time we've flown Jetstar but never again."

Paula Cook of Mt Annan paid an extra $100 to take the flight. When she didn't show up for work, her boss replaced her.

"I lost my job because I couldn't get back to Sydney at 9am," Ms Cook said.

Jetstar said three of its flights were affected by the strong winds, but conceded it could have communicated better with passengers.


The Sunday Telegraph



I must admit, leaving your house and/or car keys in Any luggage is a bad idea! but then again thats the type of PAX a $30 ticket will attract.
sadly a bus trip would have been faster and cheaper than the J* flight!

and then being told to contact customer service when you get home! HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHA

[BAE146]

You pay peanuts - you get monkeys !

STIFF SH!T !!!!!

[ditzyboy]

The article fails to mention what happened at NTL... (I seem surprised, I know!) Did people get stuck in the terminal waiting for buses? Or where they taken to a hotel? Then the aircraft left without them as they couldn't organise to get the pax back out to Williamtown quick enough?

No doubt some heads at JQ will roll and they will come up with a plan to handle it better if it happens again. The addition or improvement of procedures seems to be reactive, rather than procative, in these here parts.

I just have to ask what kind of people leave items such as keys in luggage - no matter what airline you are flying.

[Sprite]

I am sure the $30 fare paying pax would have been perfectly happy if the pilots had attempted to get in at SY and smashed the plane into little pieces. Idiots. They probably haven't travelled on an aircraft before and don't know that aircraft cannot always magically get everywhere they need to go.

Too bad, live and learn!

And as for expecting first class service on a $30 fare...do they expect first class service on a bus or train? No! Unfortunately J* cater for the market that want everything for nothing, refuse to take responsibility for their own actions and love to complain to the media when things don't go their way.

[RENURPP]

I don't believe any comments indicated that the pilots were not trying hard enough to get into Sydney, the complaints I see are regarding the lack of communication, and that shouldn't change because you pay less for a ticket.

If you travel economy on mainline would you be satisfied with only business class being assisted during delays I would suggest not.

Jetsar lives up to its monica of Jokestar unfortunately, maybe some heads should role. They may want to be cheap but cheap and nasty will not survive and thrive!

[Sunfish]

Thats right Sprite, show contempt for the passengers that pay your wages.

[Ultralights]

seams to me all the QF group is Only interested in shareholders, definatly not customers , or emplyees!

[neville_nobody]

Anyone care to enlighten us on the wind situation at Sydney??? Were all the other operators in there bailing out as well??

[Ultralights]

Wind definatly was not the reason, i was flying on saturday (15th Jan) wind was 10Kt 080 at YHOX.

YSSY has runway 07 in operation due to reasonably strong sea breeze. (from what i could see at hox. didnt seam to stop any other flight

im sure there would be a record of the conditions somewhere on the net, but i have other work to do.

edit, then again there was some storm activity in the area from about 3pm, it was a hot (30 deg) day. but the storms travelled from richmond in a south east direction, and never hit YSSY

[Kaptin M]

Ultralights, comparing the wind at Hoxton with the wind at Mascot would be as relevant as comparing the wind at Cairns to those two.
Hoxton Park is well inland, and protected from the strong sea breezes to which YSSY is regularly exposed. Those Southerly Busters pack a strong, but welcome wallop, on hot Summer afternoons, but often blow up to 40 and 50 knots on the coastline.
The Western suburbs would be "lucky" if they got half that velocity!

Distance-wise they - Hoxton & Mascot - (in a straight line) aren't so far separated, but that's where the similarity ends.

[turbantime]

This is second hand information but I believe the curfew was in force at YSSY and the downwind component was 20kts. Interestingly though there was a QF 737 that diverted back to Brissy while Jetstar went to WLM but no mention of the QF.....maybe they handled the situation better...who knows. But again, second hand info.

[P47]

Ultralights, your spelling is consistently atrocious!

[Ultralights]

ok, my mistake. The flight was on Friday. Friday afternoon in syd was marked by a large storm cell moving east across Stgeorge area, YSSY, then out to sea, at about 5 pm, with heavy rains and squally winds. Rwy 07 was in use most of the day as a result of the usual sea breeze. temp in western syd reached 44 deg C at 3 pm.

as for my spelling? my grammer is sometimes bad, and teh usual amount ot typo;s! when im busy with other computer releted work (excel word etc) i try to typ as fast as i can on the intaweb. so their!:} (now thats bad spellinbg! doh, anotehr typo!)

ps, im NOT related to Mr Q!

[Capt Basil Brush]

I believe it was the curfew and downwind on 34 that was the problem.

Apparently the last DJ OOL-SYD flight was cancelled, and stayed on the ground at Coolly due to the same conditions at SYD - rather than give it a go, miss out, and then have curfew problems at OOL. At least that way, the pax stay where they have come from - with their bags, and go early the next morning.

[Eastwest Loco]

Yes Ultralights - see me after class!! XXX 2/10

Whatever the weather, JQ diverted to a foreign airport from their point of view. They would have no doubt through ops control have had access to the local JQ ground handlers after hours numbers, but chose not to call a crew out, or the staff are that badly paid for ground handling that they chose to be MIA to make a point. Then how did the crew get down? Escape ropes from the cockpit, or were the ground crew there, but wouldn't unload? The 717 would have easily been unloaded onto the tarmac or onto hand hauled barrows with only one or two ground crew. Have done the same with an F27 and F28 on the ground at Corowa (CWW) after a fog diversion and transhipped baggage with the aircrew and cabin crews assistance while waiting for the ABX boys to arrive. It is not that bloody hard, even with barrows with flat tyres and no tugs. That was with an Airline we built though, not one that was forced upon us.

This is not excuseable even if the SLF are in some cases bus fodder paying bugger all. Many would be ex QF patrons who have no choice but to travel cattle class on Jetsteer due to the erosion of the full service market in their port.

All the psgrs would have happily caught the busses that night for the relatively short ride if only someone unloaded their baggage. What are the security ramifications of operating an aeroplane loaded with pasengers baggage without the passengers on board. Must be a 100% security failure.

Lets hope Jetsteer isn't like herpes. you cant cure that.

Best all

EWL

[Yusef Danet]

EWL,

IATA regs allow us to let pax off and continue with their bags in the event of a diverted aircraft. Highly unlikely to have a pax carrying a bomb waiting for the opportunity for it to fly without him.

Or her. Apolgies to all would-be female blowers-up of aircraft for gender stereotyping.

[Eastwest Loco]

Accepted Yusef

However walking away from an aeroplane and not cracking the lockers and extracting the bags when a ground crew should have been on call is amateur in the extreme. Capital A.

Surely the crew could have done this and if no groundhogs were available it would not have hurt them to chuck 130 odd bags and leave any freight onboard.

Just shows the crew opinion of the airline. That is not a criticism of the crew either.

Best

EWL

[Kanga767]

Don't worry Ultralights.

As another LAME reading the posts in PPrune over the last few days I wouldn't confuse you with Mr Q in a blue fit! (did I say blue?)

In fact I'm quite embarressed to be a LAME with consideration to the content that Mr Q posts.


K

[2daddies]

EWL,
We clash again;

"However walking away from an aeroplane and not cracking the lockers and extracting the bags when a ground crew should have been on call is amateur in the extreme. Capital A."

Have you ever heard of a little thing called Occupational Health and Safety?

Back in the good 'ole days of EWA, you could probably do that (with the airline you "built" - don't forget, shags, Jetstar is a metamorphosis of Impulse and let me assure you VQ got "built" too) but in this litigious new milennium pilots and cabin crew can't just go to the underfloor holds and start chucking bags.

We're not allowed to. And if we tried it'd be tea & bikkies with management - not to mention industrial strife from the baggage unions for "trying to do their job for them".

Further, if we did actually do ourselves an injury while downstairs then our worker's compensation claim would be null and void, our sick leave would be under a cloud and JQ would be one or more pilot/cabin crew short on what is a very tight roster anyway. No friends made there either.

EWL - constantly comparing East West with Jetstar is a very long bow to draw. They are different but then again so is the world.

The part that constantly gets my goat is that in the process of besmirching anything that is not "like it used to be in the old days" you also throw mud on people who are DOING THEIR JOBS AS BEST THEY CAN WITHIN THE RULES AND REGULATIONS IMPOSED UPON THEM.

Stop being emotive and wake up to the way things are. EWA, Ansett and ALL the old legacy carriers are gone. The only one that remains is Qantas and I assure you it bears NO resemblance to what it once was.

[Eastwest Loco]

Yep 2daddies, I didn't ever consider the OHS/insurance ramifications. :uhoh:

Apologies.

As for unions, I am sure you would be hard pressed to find a TWU member at a JQ contract handled port, if that is indeed how they are ground handled. Maybe not the case if the QFlink ground crew handle them.

Maybe it would have been prudent to call them out to do the ground handling. It would have been much cheaper than overnighting passengers at company expense.

As for besmirching, I am not putting anyone on the front line down. There just seems to be little common sense behind the scenes, and EW, AN and TN would find it next to impossible to operate in the kind of environment that exists now. At least I did not mean to, but on rereading some keyboard rage obviously left over from a losing fight with one of our "improved" web based systems (read cheaper for our head office) seems to have overflowed and I apologise for that and definitely could have put the point much better.

Would you not agree that calling out JQ ramp and baggage staff may just have saved some dollars and a lot of bad publicity?

Of course, they may have all been uncontactable.

Best regards

EWL

[ditzyboy]

Does NTL even have the equipment to load and unload the containers on the 320? They didn't the last time a 320 got stuck there.

How many people other than the baggage guys would actually know how to use the equipment? Would the baggage guys at NTL even know how?

Aside from safety, of course. How can LCCs be expected to host the same level of resources (as major carriers) for odd situations such as this when they fly their customers around so cheaply? No consolation to the people without their checked baggage (and house keys :rolleyes: ) for half a day. But would higher fares and reduced frequencies be more acceptable to the masses?

2daddies -
I agree. When I was still at the union I had a call from management. They were quite upset that one of the cabin crew had decided to help load the bags at ROK. I found it highly amusing, given it was one of our more 'flamboyant' male FAs! Management made it quite clear they were less than impressed.

[Eastwest Loco]

OK ditzy and daddies, I accept that LCCs may not have the resources, but sooner or later NTL will have to have container unloading gear. I was not aware the A320's were can carriers. Are they? I assumed they would be magic carpet, but obviously wrong. Seems to be overhandling if they are canned, but having no experience with anything but the cans TN used for a short time on the 727-276 and A300 LD3s etc, I have no right to comment.

Rolling the aeroplane early without advice to the passengers is another matter though. They accommodated them, knew where they were and could have made one phone call to the motel or motels to advise of the changed departure time, even if it was 3am in the morning.

daddies - yes - I do reflect on what was, but there is a great deal of what went before that could be applied now at little or no cost to improve the lot of the passenger, and indeed that of the people picking up the pieces after a major faux pas that didn't need to happen in the first place. It is the culture of Airline - the "knowledge". It can't be bought or manufactured.

I am sure you would much rather be flying for Impulse, tilting at the windmill of the big boys than where you are now. I wish you nothing but clear skies mate, but never lose where you came from. That is what makes us what we are today, and why you still defend your airline despite the changes. Well done mate! You still have the culture. Never lose it.

Best regards all

EWL

ps: I would much rather be standing on a tarmac in 45 knot winds in pissing rain making much less but having an airline (even a LCC) to hang my hat on. I consider you very lucky. Never lose the passion.

[pullock]

Heads won't roll at Jetstar because the business plan is that they don't care about the passengers, or the staff.

Just remember boys and girls that this is a business plan that is approved and endorsed by no other than Qantas and it's board.

Look out Australia Qantas plans to bring Jetstar to your place to replace good Qantas and there's noting you can do.

Suddenly walking looks good.

[Cargo Clown]

A320s can take containers, AKH's. But I believe most LCCs take a bulk option to speed up offloading. For the crew, it would be impossible to offload without ground crew, the hold is too high to simply jump in and throw the bags out.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

EWL. I tend to agree. The great old days of companies like East West are unfortunately gone forever. A culture like that one will never exist again whilst bean counters run modern day airlines. Your posts are very close to the mark and are always thought out well.

2Daddies. I see you are back. No changes in your attitude. You really do need to pull your head in. A lot can be learned from guys like EWL. He is from an era when flying was still a gentlemans pursuit. I think you have entirely missed the point.

Culture is the modern day word for Morale. Poor Morale leeds to other more long term problems.

DM

[Australia2]

146,

Couldn't agree more. These people have recieved the sort of service level that a $ 30 fare buys. The public are voting with their feet, ably assisted by the QF master plan and its royal beancounters.

Get over it !!!

Oz2

[2daddies]

DM,
I agree, EWL does have a wealth of knowledge that I can only envy right now. But calling the crew "amateur in the extreme. Capital A" hardly does justice to the immense job all the flight and cabin crew (including yourself) are putting in to try to make things work at Jetstar.

Even EWL accepted his choice of words was a little harsh.

As for my "attitude" I can only assume you're referring to our discussions of two or so years ago. Just remember, that attitude was formed in the midst of an enforced redundancy from a profitable carrier. You and others kept their jobs.

Be as grateful for that as I am to be back onboard and perhaps try to understand why I'm now defending the very thing that cost ME and my colleagues so much.

2daddies

[Eastwest Loco]

2daddies - My apology is unconditional, and hopefully accepted. I was indeed too harsh. There are glaring holes in what transpired, but I accept that I should not have cast aspersions on the crew of an Airline that was at least at the front line trying to do exactly what Eenie Weenie tried to do. The amateur referred to operations control, shambles planning or whoever not calling out a ground crew. It seems to have been misconstrued, but was not really well put.

All the experience in the world is great, but no airline to hang your hat on is tragic. Take care of yours mate. It is better than a million dollars in the bank.

Best regards

EWL

[2daddies]

No need to apologise at all, East West. The same passion that caused you to write what you did also led me to compose such a scathing reply. Looks like we both have "the culture" in buckets!

For what it's worth I can more than see your point - I actually agree with it. But that's half the fun of PPRUNE - the chance to say what you really think without (too much) moderation or political doctoring.

The secret is not actually taking it seriously!

All the best.

[Eastwest Loco]

Kewl 2daddies.

I am glad I was of no offense.

You have a Cocky on the tail imprinted in your brain, I have a white T and a gold map of Oz. The best of days and the worst of days.

It is what we are, and will be until the day we die.

May it never change, because the newbies learn the "knowledge" from people like yourself, and that engenders a new generation of culture.

It is all we have between airline management and the total descent into bean counter driven personal obscurity.

Beancounters cannot destroy the culture, much as they wouldlike to. It can be destructive, as we can't see the spinning propellor in front of us, but generally it is why the dude being paid peanuts really smiles at us from bhing th counter and means it.

Gotta love this bloody frustrating industry.

Best regards

EWL

[ditzyboy]

EWL -
Our 320s load luggage in containers. Apparently it is quicker for them and suits the free seating situation better?

I spoke with one of the cabin crew who got stuck at NTL. The problem was that no one from JQ or the handling agent was at the airport - just the night security guy. So there was no one to keep the pax directly informed. Capt was keeping the CM informed, who in turn relayed the situation to pax in the terminal. However a number of pax were borderline violent (despite the fact is was VERY obvious the cabin crew were doing ALL they could possible). A couple of the cabin crew went back to the aircraft in fear of their safety. Don't blame them.

Pax were only at NTL for around 90 mins before getting on buses to accomodation/SYD.

It would seem JQ could have had someone from the company or the handling agent attend the terminal. Also they could have advised pax of the aircraft's earlier departure.

Situation kind of similar to the QF 737 that got stuck in TMW for 5 hours in the middle of the night. Pax stuck ON AIRCRAFT for 9 hours MEL-BNE.

I do have to say JQ customers are very quick to become violent at the most menial of delays. The other day we were 20 mins EARLY and had to wait for 5 mins for a gate to become free... Pax yelled (quite foul) abuse at us in the back galley and said they would never fly JQ again! :rolleyes: It's the market we are going for I guess. The same people wanting their 5 mins of fame in the Daily Telegraph. :hmm:

[Eastwest Loco]

Ditzy - thanks for the update mate.

I am sad to hear that JQ is attracting the "Firefly" bus crowd as it must make it nearly untenable for the crew.

I do recall similar with the EW cheapies over ABX to SYD and have left the odd abusive clown behind myself.

If the luggage was canned, and the A320 not scheduled into NTL on a regular basis, that would explain the bags staying on board. I truly pray nobody had a couple of kilos of green prawns in their baggage!!! Bet someone did though.

Passengers like that may never fly JQ again - thank God!!!!

Best regards

EWL

[pullock]

Yes the luggage is canned.


This was against the best of local advice at the time. The whole industry know that they would have been better off without the cans, but what would we know - we are just dumb convict Aussies.

Ditzy, I knlw you love your job, but are you starting to see the flaws in the new regime ?

[ditzyboy]

pullock -
Starting too?

We menial cabin crew have been giving constructive feedback since the advent of this whole production... Means nothing when the feedback goes nowhere but the bin. There is the token "CM Forums"... Again. Means nothing when the feedback doesn't leave the room.

We have absolutely no control over any of the issues that make our jobs more difficult. Low morale and sheer frustration is taking it's toll on the customer-facing ranks at JQ.

[Icarus2001]

The problem was that no one from JQ or the handling agent was at the airport Isn't there a requirement to have someone on the ground for such an operation What does the company operations manual say?

[Chippie Chappie]

That's what I was thinking Icarus2001. I'm still a little unclear why the crew diverted to an airfield without the proper facilities. Was fire cover available? For such a short flight, the crew must have known the possibility of having to divert if there was a curfew on one of the runways at the destination.

So was this company or pilot error (silly question, it's always pilot error? :rolleyes: ) What is the company policy on this? Is there a standard divert airfield if YSSY becomes unsuitable while the aircraft is en-route?

With regard to the "Pay peanuts, get monkeys" remark, I'm a firm believer that the fish rots from the head down. It is so easy for employees to be blamed whereas the tone of the company is set by the management.

Cheers,

Chips

[rescue 1]

There seems to be a double standard here.

Jetsar demand that intending passengers check in 30 mins prior to departure or loose your fare (including taxes!?!), yet there is no compensation for when they run late or "stuff" up. Its no wonder people are getting upset.

[Eastwest Loco]

Worse still rescue, crew like Ditzy feeling threatened within their work environment.

A little stand back review needs to be done by (alleged) management.

If one is intent on running a budget carrier, the simple stuff needs to be attended to.

I have had very good response from US Air, borderline budget carrier over a monster screw up at LAX as they took owernership of what their LAX staff did wrong. Can't say the same of a miriad ofproblems caused by a Rat Japanese heritage female at LAX who is a supervisor but has no idea of how to resolve problems by actually knowing how to use the computer system, but that is LAX.

It doesn't cost much to do it right. Actually it costs less in he long run.

I am distressed by the behaviour of passengers mentioned in this post. I have seen such behaviour first hand on rare occasions, and it was stressful despite my size. Hopefully JQ has a "persona non grata" register, so the lowlives can be denied further travel, but seat allocation so crew can identify the punter and report them and deny further travel would help their cause.

Best all

EWL

[bonvol]

JQ are missing a golden opportunity here.

Given that the PAX may include a more than usual number of bounders and scumbags they should introduce a Security surcharge. That'll fix it! :rolleyes:

[Chris Higgins]

For once, I've gotta agree with Icarus 2001 :

What the hell were they thinking taking off from there departure point if the winds were in excess of their capabilities in the first place? Why wasn't the possibility of a divert discussed with company as part of normal dispatch? Rescue and Fire Fighting at an airport that was obviously outside of normal business hours is a good point too.

Using containers for checked bags is not neccesarily the most convenient way to load either. I've been on short sectors in the States where the airlines abandoned the idea. It can take an hour to do the flight...then the passengers wait another 45 minutes for bags.

It's very easy to blame the passengers for their conduct, but when somebody loses their job, and it's because of the perceived inefficiencies of an airline, I think they have a right to be pissed off!

[bonvol]

All good points but the usual attitude in QF is get this bloody thing outta here...and now. Sort out the troubles at the other end. It's probably worse in Jetstar.

You should see the shenanigans that goes on in QF if a skipper looks like delaying a flight or offloading some payload with anything that is in a "grey" area. The fleet capt or his locum is soon on the blower to "lend a hand".

[commander adama]

Chris Higgins

What the hell were they thinking taking off from there departure point if the winds were in excess of their capabilities in the first place?

Although it is hard to believe but generally someone making a contribution on these forums has a little bit of aviation experience. You have not. So what in the hell are you doing here?

Remember if we decided never to go anywhere due weather particularly in Europe or America you would never get there. Remember a forecast is a prediction. If the winds are forecast to be say a few knots greater thasn the max component or thunderstorms. You still go and provide for an alternate. Which is what they did. Maybe the situation could have been handled better. I don't know. But your crap comment shows you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

All Airlines are the same. They run to a tight schedule and a/c on the ground are not making money.

Now run along. Maybe you could team up with the other bozo Peat Conrod and compare flight sim notes. Too stupid!

[Eastwest Loco]

In all such cases Chris, any airline would be carrying a single alternate, or multiple. It is not viable to not go, as weather can change in seconds as I am sure everyone here who sits at the pointy end knows.

Having been draggged out of bed at 2am in the morning with a diverted freight charter with an engine out, I have seen the correct way to handle such a situation. Get staff there - I cannot imagine why they were not called.

It is sad that the cabin crew had to handle the punters. It is also very bad from the point of view of the way the airline is managed. I think the crew attitude that has been relayed back from those I have booked on Ryanair is fairly indicative of how they feel about their airline.

That is the model in use. Sit down - shut up - we will tell you when we are there - or somewhere. The cabin crew seem to be copping the brunt of this and that aint fair.

EWL

[Icarus2001]

I normally love your work EWLOCO but this...It is sad that the cabin crew had to handle the punters What? Surely they are recruited on the basis of superior customer service skills? Anyone can serve meals on a routine day, how they handle irrate customers is where they prove their worth. Just like most pilots of average skill level can land a 737. The crew earn their money when running late to beat a curfew with poor weather and MEL items outstanding at the end of a l o n g day. That is where they earn the money. Customers should not be seen as a "problem".

I in no way condone abusive behaviour towards the crew. That is not exusable. Understandable sometimes but not excusable.

I have seen over the years some excellent customer service staff, in various industries, smooth over and pacify very upset customers. It is a sight to behold. By the end the customer can be eating out of their (usually her) hand. Done correctly it is a real art form.

Anyway looking at this it sounds like the punters were not "handled" at all. They were shoved in the terminal and not kept informed of what was happening.

[Eastwest Loco]

That is exactly what I mean Icarus.

Cabin crew who put up with the crap and whineing in there selected environment should not be expected to keep the passengers informed, or field questions outside their area of control on the ground with no local ground handlers present.

Abusive behaviour may well have not occured if the punters were informed in the first place. You cant tell the passengers something you have not been informed of yourself, and Ditzy called it right in an interesting way. It would seem some of the crowd JQ is attracting wouldbe ugly anyway, more so than QF mainline or DJ.

There is an upper limit to what staff should be expected to take as well.

Best regards

EWL

[ditzyboy]

Icarus -
2 out of the 5 cabin crew retreated to the aircraft as they felt threated by violent behaviour. There was 3 cabin crew in the terminal for the most part, including the cabin manager, handling the customers. They were not just locked into the terminal unsupervised!

Basically they were told buses would arrive shortly to take some to SYD and others to accomodation. CM advised which pax were going where and got them all on the respective buses. All things considered I would argue the cabin crew did an excellent job playing CSA. Surely you must agree pacifying pax in the terminal and organising them onto coach transfers is well beyond the role of CABIN crew. Not beyond them as individuals but something they can not expected to do.

Considering this was a Wx diversion and pax were put on buses not too long (as far as airline waits go!) after arrival I see no reason for violent or abusive behaviour. Remember at that point it was still planned that some pax would go with bags the next morning. Sure the whole situation was annoying but not enough to warrent violence and threats. The next day I can understand some customers would have been quite heated. But violence is out of place. Period.

My point was that JQ customers are generally quick to get violent and act in a threatening manner at even the most menial of delays or hiccups. One 'gentleman' (used loosely!) broke a seat as we had run out of sandwiches to sell. That is the kind of behaviour that is alarmingly common to customer-facing staff at JQ. I have observed a giant of a man threaten a 5'4" CSO with her LIFE using a stapler. This is not isolated, unfortunately.

I think the media has a large part to play in this. I know they have to sell stories but the amount of negative publicity at airlines really is unwarrented. These TV reports show pax getting abusive at staff and the newspaper says pax were unruly toward airport staff makes it seem acceptable to a point.

[Eastwest Loco]

Ditzy - There is absolutely NO excuse for that kind of behaviour, but how in hell do you stop it? A barred passenger list would help but could the skylights reservation system store it, and with non allocation of seats can one even isolate the arsehole?

I have a feeling you have come through from the Impulse days, a good thing too as it taught you to live on the razors edge and work your butt off for a cause. I do not envy your position today with what you tell us about the punters. Breaking a seat because the sangers sold out?? My God.

What the hell is this industry coming to.

Stay safe mate.

Best regards

EWL

[Chris Higgins]

Commandar Adama, It's obviously you who have know idea what you're talking about, which is why you had to pay for a job. As for my perceived lack of experience , I can assure you that after 22 years of employment and yes, almost four years based in JFK as a Transport Category captain, I do know what the hell I am talking about.

I knew some of the staff at Oxley Airlines, before it became Impulse, before it became Jetstar. It appears that some things never change. Disorganised, poor customer service, no attention to detail, terrible compensation, low levels of staffing, and most of all a reputation that they are bringing down the industry for the other players.

Maybe it will end up like Oxley...bankrupt after an accident!

[commander adama]

What the hell were they thinking taking off from there departure point if the winds were in excess of their capabilities in the first place?

After your above comment regard. No way.

Dream on Higgins

[Chris Higgins]

Mr "Commanda",

I think the tally has been counted. Your operation stinks. Both in the eyes of the profession, the passengers and the media.

It is an operation within an operation. Poorly executed, managed and researched, with no hope of success.

You can go through life a winner or...

As both a domestic and international captain flying turbojets for the world's most elite VIP operation, I can assure my salary, my training and the organisation of my company have none of the problems I have read about here.

Settle down chaps, Mr Conrad is taking a short break in the bin with Mr Adama, please don't follow them there and lets keep it on thread.

[commander adama]

in the eyes of the media.

Higgins. What friggin planet are you from

As both a domestic and international captain flying turbojets for the world's most elite VIP operation

Oh the this elite VIP squadron operates turbojets. THey operate turnojets still? LMFAO. Get back to your study now!!!

[ditzyboy]

Mr. Higgins -
"Poorly executed, managed and researched..." You speak of an operation that made a profit after a month. How many of the airlines over your way can claim that? Imagine if they had done more research...

JQ seemingly started from the ground-up in many areas of operations and customer services. It may have been quick and cheap but will cost more to fix as things s l o w l y improve. The result - annoyed customers and burnt out staff.

I must totally and whole-heartedly agree about the 'managed' part of your comment. Could it be that it's the employees that are keeping 'The Star' a happening thing? :\

[Chippie Chappie]

Things are getting a bit foggy here so I'll keep it simple.

Why did the crew divert to an airfield with inadequate facilities?

Chips

[Eastwest Loco]

Chips

Alternates are all about proximity and suitable runway length.

The only oversight in this case seems to be not calling out the ground handlers.

NTL was an intelligent diversion with possibly CBR if the WX was ok as second choice. No doubt there are other possibles too.

Best

EWL

[Agent Mulder]

Ditzyboy,

Whilst I admire your obvious loyalty to your employer, I just need to point out a few things.

Your employer is profitable because it did not have to set up like any other carrier. Big brother Qantas foots most of the bills with regards the set up costs and other essential services needed to get an Airline started.

Your employer is profitable because it was given, repeat given, guaranteed passengers and routes by Qantas. Remember the stink about pax finding out their Qantas flight was now a Jetstar flight whether they liked it or not?

Your employer is profitable because they pay all of you less than the going rate for people of your qualifications in this country. This goes straight to the bottom line and AJ's bonus out of your pocket.

Your employer is profitable because Qantas still organises things like Fuel (which if Jetstar had to buy on its own probably would have killed it seeing the recent price hikes). There are a substantial number of Administrative functions that are conducted by the mother ship that say a true competitor, like Virgin, would actually have to pay for themselves. Think of that, other startups actually have to do their own work.

Jetstar is not playing on a level playing field. Dixon's hypocrisy is clearly visible and if I were Virgin I would have the ACCC all over the books of Qantas in a predatory pricing suit.

Then again, the unions could run a serious Transmission of Business case, and the show would be over.

Ditzy, again I admire your loyalty and zeal, but take all into consideration before you jump to Jetstar’s defence

[Pete Conrad]

Again, another well thought out response from that loser commander assbandit. Again having a go at a fellow pilot who probably has ammassed more hours than our illustrious assdama.

Mr Higgins, assdama is a nopulse loser who couldn't get a job with a professional airline within Australia, so he ended up part of the brigade that started the pay for own endorsement rot. A mob that had no seniority system and then sold themselves out recently and when the heat gets turned on they bolt out of the kitchen!

His total lack of basic intellect should alert anyone to the fact that he is really just one of those guys by luck that has had a dream ride, not due to any ability on his part, as contrary to his big mouth claims and experience, he has no ability and he has no experience.

His bitterness is partly attributable to the fact he can't pass the Qantas selection criteria, which further harbours his deep seated anger towards anyone who may just fly a jet or have more experience than his pea brain can comprehend.

But he does have a big mouth Mr Higgins, which sort of makes you wonder what he does with it when he's at home alot with is mates and a computer.

[Mr Lucky]

It is a shame that one or two posters, such as Pete Conrad can only submit what amounts to aggressive abuse, rather than reasoned argument. Many of the problems at Jetstar that have been mentioned are in fact, quite real.
It is becoming apparent that a lot of the cabin crew, most of whom are among the best people I have worked with over many years, are gradually losing their enthusiasm and loyalty, partly because of bad management decisions and, more recently the growing number of ill mannered, agressive and abusive passengers.
Regarding the NTL diversion, it is a company line port, although not for the A320, and is the heavy maintenance port as well. There is no reason not to divert there, but, as usual, the short sighted management see no reason to supply support in case of this eventuality. As to the question of RFF, it is not required, even at a normal destination.
The only reasonable alternative would have been MEL, as CBR would also have provided no support, neither would BNE, and OOL has a curfew.
I dare say it was an Ops directed decision to try to beat the curfew anyway, just in case.

[ditzyboy]

Mulder -
I wasn't comparing Jetstar's profit to other start-ups. Just to other airlines in general. I agree with what you said. Though business isn't about there being a level playing field. Remember Virgin's owners aren't short of a buck, either.

We cabin crew earn well over twice what we did in 2000/1. And that's only over two EBAs. I would consider that a gigantic step toward decent pay and conditions. QF cabin crew didn't acheive their conditions overnight either.