Pilot extensions

[Sizzle]

Any one heard about some 55'ers getting extensions on B scales AND retaining their base slots ?

[Fark The Lotter View]

Any one heard about management pilots trying to stir it up?

[jagman]

I'm pretty sure that several London Based pilots have been extended and will retain their Basings - thereby BLOCKING those slots TFN.
That is bloody unacceptable.

[Magenta Line]

I believe 3 senior captains have been extended. Two of them are listed in the latest Crew's News as retiring in October.
As a B-scaler I hope they have extended on A+ pay. Anything less would be sending the wrong message to the company, but I wouldn't be surprised if they have accepted a B-scale deal. Like one senior captain said at a recent AEB lunch "it is still better than going to KAL or SQ".

[Cloud Cuckooland]

- It's True

- They have taken B-scale

- The relevant F/O's will get A-scale bypass.

- They are a disgrace.

[Checkmate]

Names please. As they are already in the public domain that should be OK with Tai Pan.

[xcheck]

Be patient for another few days, then you will get the confirmation from the bus's roster to see if the Captain/Captains suposed to be retired in October are still on.

[Magenta Line]

What does the AOA think about these people extending on B-scale salary? One would think that it is not in the spirit of CC. I suppose they probably aren't members anyway.

[legstretch]

ONE SIMPLE WORD FOR THEM.... "SCABS". And should be treated that way.

[Liam Gallagher]

Some months ago I sighted a copy letter from Cathay to the AOA stating that a Captain had been extended past age 55. The letter confirmed that both the most senior FO and SO were to get bypass pay. It would appear the company has followed the correct procedure as detailed in my Terms of Service (Veta 9.1 1/7/99) and no fellow pilot has been financially disadvantaged.

Assuming the most recent extentions follow this pattern, would Cloud Cuckooland kindly explain why those individuals who choose to extend are "a disgrace" and equally, would Legstretch explain why these individuals are worthy of the most distasteful label "scab"?

Liam G.

[legstretch]

Very simple. regardless of all of your hype about bypass pay, some of us are actually sick of sitting in the seat we are and want to move up a rung.

If these old farts have not had the sense to plan for their financial future and relax and enjoy time with mum and the kids something is wrong.

I for one, as I'm sure others will as well, will go sick if I am rosters with these scabs.

Oh sorry to hurt your feeling not scabs. They don't care about the rest of us and our progression, so it is a discrace!!!

[amused]

It's a free World and if some guys want to work till 60 why not? 55 is back in the ark as we all live longer lives now.

[Liam Gallagher]

Legstretch,

You seem to have a unique definition of scab. Judging by your previous posts, not only on this thread, your definition is "anyone senior to Legstretch preventing him from being DFO!"

I don't believe many support your views and any that do will only do so for their own self-serving means.

As an aside, just how many months have you had to endure being an SO?

Liam G.

[Cloud Cuckooland]

Legstretch, Liam & amused: They are a disgrace not becuase they are financially disadvantaging anyone or because they want to keep flying.

Point 1: The company wants 60

Point 2: Maybe a deal can be done after negotiation and a vote - who knows? We want something good in return though.

Point 3: The actions of these three severely undermine the position of the rest of us before things even get off the ground by volunteering to come back on REDUCED conditions.

[BIG MACH]

According to an earlier post, Nick Rhodes has already broached the subject of retirement at 60 with the AOA. Apparently, it is in the minutes of the meeting. If the AOA refuse to discuss the subject, the door is open for the company to take action within the existing arrangement of bypass pay.
Sounds to me, Legstretch, that you are not yet ready for your command.

[HotDog]

Legstretch, I was extended to age 57 but lost check and training status, which I happily accepted. Did that make me a scab? Let us know your feelings when you reach the age of 55 mate!

[Thrust]

Scab is a silly word to use here. Extensions are no problem as long as the next on the list of F/O's and S/O's get bypass pay.

There is no guarantee that the bypassed would pass their upgrade so it could even be of benefit to them!

Extensions are temporary and have been a way of life in CX for many years. It's nothing new and I know the extensions existed as normal policy with AOA approval long before anyone affected by it even joined CX. It is a stop gap measure that has little effect on the majority. Commands and upgrades are going on as fast as is possible under the current constraints in the training system.

Some of you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The only thing that does slightly disturb me is the basing issue. By the way, on the record, I'm for retirement at 55 but I can live with extensions as long as agreed policy is followed.



[This message has been edited by Thrust (edited 15 September 2000).]

[had_enough]

If this happens - these guys are holding up the seniority list by stopping me and everybody else, who wants it, getting onto a base. Another theft of the goal posts !

[Checkmate]

Extensions have always been around, and are part of your COS. However some things have changed since the concept of extensions was included in the "Blue Book" COS of the 70's & 80's. B scales and basings spring to mind. The original idea was that extensions would be allowed, as long as no one junior was disadvantaged, at that time the only disadvantage was financial, hence bypass pay. I think the system still adequately addresses salary issues, it obviously does not address basing issues. Every base opening has an enormous financial benefit for the company and huge personal value for those wishing to leave HKG. The present situation, if it is true is hardly disadvantageous to CX, if the following formula is remotely correct.

1 V Snr A Scale Capt + 1 V Snr A Scale FO = 1 B Scale Capt + 1 V Junior Capt

As for the Capt's in question. How sad to reach 55yrs old, and not have anything else you can or want to do, other than sit in an aluminium tube for 10-15 hrs 6 times a month. Save your invective gentlemen. They are not "scabs" just poor, sad, lost souls, who have nothing else to live for but 4 gold bars & Cathay Pacific.


[This message has been edited by Checkmate (edited 15 September 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Checkmate (edited 15 September 2000).]

[MaxThrust]

I'm with you this time Check Mate, it is a very said state of affairs when all one has at the end of a great career is no friends or family they wish to spen time with and no interests other than flying long haul aeroplanes. Maybe though its something more personal than this, like the fact that once retired these poor chaps just become Jo citizen and simply can't live without the ego inflating and lofty status of Captain Four Bars.

As far as bypass pay is concern the playing field has change somewhat since the Blue Book was written. In the old days one could expect a command in less than fours years. Who then would be concerned being bypassed for six months and at the same time paid a captains salary. I have spent eight years in this airline and have been bypassed for fours of those years and not paid a penny of bypass pay. I fact I have had negative bypass pay applied.

[Magenta Line]

How can anyone defend these people? We have CC at the moment. Most of us turn down great offers from crew control to comply with it (I actually voted NO to CC, but now that it is here, I do comply with it). Since most of us don't work on days off, how can it be ok to extend beyond 55? And then on B-scale!!!!
I think we all agree that B-scale is below industry standard and I think that we all agree that it is in everyone's best interest to raise it, preferably to A-scale level. How can we possibly convince the company that this is the case, if these silly old farts with millions of pounds stacked away in the bank are willing to take a paycut which is even more significant than last year, just to continue being Mr. -400 captain. I am sorry, but these guys are selfish and a disgrace. If there was no CC and they extended on A+ salary then I might accept it, since the company is short of C&Ts. But at the moment there is no excuse and if I once again hear "I can't afford to retire", I don't think I will be able to control my stomach.

[Fatbastard]

You lot do eat your young, as you have now shown! The price of Snr. Captain has now been 'benchmarked' hasn't it? Two years to the next negotiations and the die has been cast! The message has been sent loud and clear to Mr. Turnbull that you are willing to accept B scale wages without significant backlash. I have been gone from CX for a while now, (Life after CX is great btw!) but would like to offer some food for thought. I could vilify the AOA for not coming out strongly against this, but there have now been so many things they should have anticipated or at least reacted to. I could vilify the chaps that have taken your jobs on B scale in the twilight of their careers, but that is your job to make them uncomfortable at every opportunity! You ladies and gentlemen are the AOA, make your wishes known. Stop sitting idly by while your careers are being damaged day by day, inch by inch. Get involved and make your voices heard. The recent UAL contract has benchmarked the 744 capt job in the USA. I just want to make sure that you understand how much salary that is in total: the $340/hr translates to about $340,000 usd's per year, Keep in mind that is including credit hours, They generally get 8 to 10 credit hours per month for DT etc. They rarely fly more than 65 to 75 hrs seat time per mo. in the US. PLUS expenses_ about $400 usd/month, PLUS retirement of 11% of every dollar earned in ADDITION to your salary, usually resulting in a payment of 1 to 3 million usd's on retirement, PLUS a monthly payment on retirement of 30 to 60% of your final salary for the rest of your life. PLUS comprehensive Medical/Dental/Life insurance/Loss of Licence/Disability/, PLUS free staff travel after 5 or 10 years of service. To achieve this level of compensation in a cash only environment like CX's compensation would equate to about 400,000 usd's per year in total. Almost twice the CX pay for a captain on a base.

Do not take a 'damage control' stance with CX. You must re-establish the 'benchmark' at the appropriate level. For those you with American citizenship or a grean card, the handwritting is on the wall. Good luck to all of you, it sure looks like you will need it.

[This message has been edited by Fatbastard (edited 15 September 2000).]

[Compliant One]

Time has come to tighten the CC scope. Unfortunately, the present contract has not been broken since these individuals actually retired and have signed on to a new contract.

They appear not to be in contravention of the CC provisions. They are sailing very close to the wind and have definitely crossed the line with regards to the moral standing of their actions.

I quite agree with Checkmate etc that they are sad to have nothing better to do after their retirement. THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE ACCEPTED B-SCALES.

These are the same senior guys who have failed to support their colleagues in the past. Delightful chaps, I am sure, but guys - you are so nieve. Here's why:

1. The company doesn't NEED you and all your "skills and experience". They are building your egos up to make you feel important. "You are so important since you're C&T and we value your input to the development to our younger pilots career progression." For this read "we think that you are rather pompous and believe that the company will not survive without your incredible skills and knowledge. This means that you will work for almost nothing." Dah!!

2. We would love to pay you A scale but this would put you outside of the companies policy for the past 7 years of only employing on B scales. You wouldn't want special conditions now, would you?

3. Now don't worry about the base thing, old chap. We'll extend you on a base and we'll just delay any of those junior guys beneath you from taking one up. (We'll give you a nice roster too.) You're senior to them so it's your right to have the base.

4. By the way, did I tell you that the company will drop you like a ton of hot bricks as soon as we don't need you again. Don't worry - your retirement staff travel will still be the worst of any large airline in the world. PRI 28 and no FOC - try telling a BA captain that and he will laugh at you.

These guys have been an easy touch for the company. It includes one guy who said after B-scales etc that "it's still a lot of money to be paid for a job I love. I think that it's still great."

Sad boys who forgot that they should have had a life outside of Cathay and flying.

If you are members of the HKAOA then you ALL ought to be ashamed.

[This message has been edited by Compliant One (edited 16 September 2000).]

[Turtlenest]

In my experience in the states, bypass pay was a good deal. Max F/O seniority and Captain's pay. Anymore, most of us are in it for the money, not the glory. Four years to the left seat the norm? Try twenty or 5 to the right seat. Present upward mobility is not the norm. Sort of like an 8 year bull market.

[AtRisk]

Every person in the ranks waiting for their command is a threat to men in their midlife crisis. They see every younger person as a threat to what they are and the illusion of what they were. They have friends and Mums and Dads dying so it scares the hell out of them that they are now looking at death's door too and they feel that hanging on to what represents their youth and keeps their ego's vital will keep death away even longer. One day everyone faces this aspect of life, but for men who have been in such ego positions as Cathay A-scalers have been it is a long way down, and because it would never happen to them...they were immortal and indespensible they didn't plan or prepare for the inevitable. It is all fear of what has happened to them biologically.

[Tornado Ali]

....good grief..!!! ATRISK......you really are...!! what have you been smoking...?!!

[amused]

AtRisk, 55 is hardly at death's door! Maybe the way your blood pressure is going, it will be for you!

[amused]

What has happened to Krono, or has Liam seen him off!

[k_d_s]

Hey AtRisk, that's gutsy. But you miss a critical point in the role of management. As you rightly point out, the systemic theme in all of this is a fear based organizational culture. Hence those in the role of management (middle or otherwise) will gravitate to those positions in an attempt to distance themselves from 'the inevitable', as you put it. But the 'leader' and the 'led' are two components of an inclusive system.

There are many good examples in organizational literature where outgoing corporate leaders successfully transfer their own fears onto the 'general' population. When they are replaced by 'tyrant' leaders, that collective fear is 'successfully' projected, along with their own fears and insecurities, onto those they lead, to everyone's detriment. And it is reflective of an unhealthy organizational culture that is often characterized by morale problems and toxic work environments.

I take issue with your notion of A-scalers as the source of the problem though. The fears that you mention are a very real part of organizational dynamics, however you misidentify the source. The bottle neck is still at the top of a bottle.

I suggest the following book if you're interested in organizational dynamics: "Work Abuse : How to Recognize and Survive It, by Chauncey Hare, Judith Wyatt; available at Amazon.

-cheers.

[This message has been edited by k_d_s (edited 17 September 2000).]

[legstretch]

Let me guess. All of the people who defend these SCABS are "older in theie age". Have some respect for yourself and act like the MANY decent older Captains who look forward to leaving.

Stay on base!! SCAB. They ARE taking someones base who has been waiting.

Buy the way only the No.1 S/O gets bypass pay. Different for F/O's.

Nut you fools who agree with these guys miss the big picture.

IT SLOWS UP UGRADES.

3 F/O UPGRADES SLOWED DOWN.
3 S/O UPGRADES SLOWED DOWN
3 NEW GUYS SLOWED DOWN.

Hang your heads in shame scabs because everyone knows who you are. Pathetic lonely old men. There is a life outside CX.

If your hanging around for your ego and repect, you have lost it all. Even flight attendants know who you are and dissaprove.

SHAME SHAME SHAME

Lousy scabs.......

[had_enough]

Forget the "slowed down" bit, if there is a down turn before the upgrades happen they won't take place and a long wait (for the next upturn) will ensue. Wouldn't want to be the top three F/Os and S/Os then !

Hey, we all know how quickly things can turn around - don't we !!!

[BlunderBus]

A couple of comments..it's hard for the AOA to project the 'line' about 'inadequate' retirement benefits when all i read on this thread are comments about 'loaded' old farts at 55 having so much money they should fold up and leave. I feel that extensions are not right..they DO prevent command upgrades and are a shining example of the company being caught out (yet again) with staffing levels. In addition CX can easily skirt the 60 ret. age issue by indefinately offering 'B' scale extensions to as many senior guys as they need to keep the ball rolling. If 60 is what it must be then make it 60 under a properly negotiated deal with ALL pilots having a say. ..not this "we'll fly for free" crap. Keep in mind that the final 5 years of other airlines' crew means they are at the absolute peak of their income and retirement multiples. 60 IS the international age of retirement..make it so.. but let CX honour(i use that term VERY loosely!) the conditons of service as regards salary and benefits. Yeah ..i know..pigs will fly!

[AtRisk]

There is a two fold problem that is multiplied by a factor of <2>.
The men who are coming of age for their retirement are from a corporate era of "the company will take care of you!" Today's corportate cultures worldwide are such that the only one you can depend on is yourself. Their are scores of books about this topic available at Amazon.com.
They watched the elder men of days gone by leave with honour and had a tradition of passing the tourch to the next generation with the satisfaction that they left with what they were told they would have upon leaving. They are being cheated of what they expected.
As for the compounded problem they are watching the younger men picking up the women as they used to, but aren't anymore, they are loosing their hair down the drain hole every morning, it is more difficult to keep up the exercises, their hearts are causing them problems, the have to wear glasses too. They want to feel young and alive again. Their job is the major souce of connection to their youth. Plus, all their beliefes about what the world was about has collapsed as the corporate cultures have changed so drastically. They thought they would be seeing themselves walking out just as those before them did, but not today. They didn't plan for their retirement because they were immoratal, forever young, and the company was going to take care of them. They want to be where the younger men are; to feel alive, and the younger men want to be where the older men are to feel the prestige and the money factors. It just isn't fair but it is biology of the human race.
To help you undestand I suggest reading Jungian theories of self realisation, Ken
Wilber's models of consciousness and self, Eric Fromm's Life Cycles and most works by Maslove.
I agree that there is a tremendous amount of corporate abuse about in Cathay, and perhaps the book "Work Abuse" should be presented for required reading to all employees. However, abuse cannot exist without a person who is willing to play the roles of victim.

[k_d_s]

Good post AtRisk. Except that self-realization is more appropriately attibuted to Maslow and his hierarchy of needs. Jung's interest was focused on individuation and reconciling opposites. Not quite the same thing, although both theorists have valid applications in organizational dynamics. Eric Fromm is interesting as is Wilbur's more contemporary and inclusive focus on consciousness.

If you're interested in a Jungian approach to organizational dynamics you might want to check out Arthur Coleman's "Up from Scapegoating", also available at Amazon. He's a Jungian analyst who brings Jung's work to an organizational setting.

In that sense, who will you scapegoat when the present scapegoats fall out of vogue? Or are you afraid to focus accountability on management, senior executives and/or the CEO because they feel distant and more powerful?

When the company offered VSS last year, stating that they were over staffed, they had every intention of extending the retirement age on B-scales as part of their organizational shenanigans. That was part of their plan even then! Hoodwinked again. Many on this thread still dont know where the 'enemy' lives. Big picture? Yeah, right.



[This message has been edited by k_d_s (edited 18 September 2000).]

[mole]

On a previous thread I tried to convince the "young whingers" that they should press the AOA to negotiate a good retirement deal at 60. Instead it would appear that the yw's prefer to spout rubbish on this site about old farts not having a life outside CX etc etc. Believe the fact that 60 is THE NORMAL retirement age in almost every other airline in the world. CX is out of step and will eventually do what it needs to get into step. By refusing to accept the idea of retirement at 60 and pushing for a deal you leave CX free to do whatever it wishes. I warned you! Now you start whinging about a few captains being extended. You are pathetic! Believe me there is more to come, so get real and convince the AOA to get us ALL a good deal on this issue.

[amused]

Mole, I think you waste your breath on these space cadets and I for one can't wait to hear there moans in January!

[AtRisk]

Amused and Mole; Here is a legitimate question... but first is the deal you, all other officers and I agreed and understood at the beginning of our tenure that our tenure was to end at age 55 and it was understood and accepted by each of us and all of our peers on the job. So what is causing the push from the people who are now at the retirment age or within its sights pushing for extensions or to have the age raised? Since the company has already given you several knee jerks in the last few years to make you see that you are not getting what you were told you would to begin with, so why are you even interested in extending the abuse to yourself in the means of subjection to further loss of your beliefes and your personal moral? It appears that most of the senior officers choose to stand apart and fight for their own personal gains and their need to feel needed in a rapidly changing environment. Would it not be a better position to leave with knowing you used the time you agreed to and let your last years be in a battle to make life better for those who follow you? There is so much division and derision here between the young and the old on the flight deck. The aspect of being the leaders seems to have fallen away from the senior captains and the younger officers are trying to rally together for unity to bring in a bit more of the traditions that you entered the company with, and the main focus is that the company should be accountable and responsible to its employees and the contracts which are accepted by the employees with beliefes and faith that the company will adhere to their side of the contract. Each time they gain a level of confidence that the employees are willing to give an inch this time; next time they will give a mile. If you have to go..go out in a flame of glory not a whimpering coddger that settled for less than you are truly worth. When you sell yourselves short and are willing to work for less and bend over for the weinner you devalue every other person within the ranks doing the same job from the F/O you just flew with to the person just walking in the door. Why not work to make sure that everyone has the value you were originally (had) promised as opposed to reducing the value of the job you have done for 20+ years and have done it well?

[This message has been edited by AtRisk (edited 18 September 2000).]

[AtRisk]

And as an aside: Is it because we are well read and educated in the various philosophies and theories of the human existence and biology that makes us "space cadets?" Does being educated and well read mean we should be worth less than those who are old and set in their ways and are not willing to expand their visions or their potential? According to the biology of man, and by the psychology of man the men facing retirement are going through stages of life that scare the hell out of them. Denying its existence does not equate to coping with it or dealing effectively with it. To deny this biological event is to deny that you came through the birth canal <55> years ago. I bet your Mummy would argue that you did, she remembers that day you don't.
"Proud to be a Space Cadet" Besides, by the time I am 55 I just might be flying these Bozo Busses out into the twighlight zone and back.
[This message has been edited by AtRisk (edited 18 September 2000).]

[This message has been edited by AtRisk (edited 18 September 2000).]

[This message has been edited by AtRisk (edited 24 September 2000).]

[had_enough]

Current CX Mainline FOs upgrading to Freighter Captains (on the relevent pay scale) + Mainline "B scale" Captains on a base = GAME OVER

What's next.... if you want a Command it'll be on "C scale"

[jtr]

At the risk of asking something I should know...
Doesn`t the B scale COS say thoust shall retire at age 55? And if so, doesn`t that mean that these guys extending are doing so on a new contract?

Also, when one gets bypass pay, aren`t you stuck on that (i.e. Yr1) till commencing your course. So lets say an S/O gets bypass pay starting today. But doesn`t start his/her course till Jan 01. Come profit share time, the said camper is now a J F/O, and renumerated accordingly, lets say two months salary for arguments sake. $80 k. If said camper had actually started their course at day 1, and jumped through all the hoops, kissed the right butts etc, they would be a F/O and would get an EXTRA $40k at p/share time.

Thats enough to pay for three and a half years parking at CX city!

[Full Slab]

A- R--k
Lots of words again, may I suggest you take a spelling course before your next conversion.
I'm a very poor speller myself...but you are even below my grade.
I didn't know that you younger folks had so much disrespect for the more seasoned pilots in the ranks. I'll keep this in mind at check in next time. It will not be so difficult in the future deciding who will be PNF.

By the way.....gear up please....

[AtRisk]

Full S .... Aren't you acting like a mature gentleman? The issues here and the statement you made are just the attitudes that are causing many problems. Seniors who are supposed to be leaders and setting examples of the what "we youngsters" are to aspire to are saying such things. We are left with such demonstrations as this type of attitude.
The statement made about "remembering who", is a sophomoric and rhetorical statement, and lacks any strength of real character. Especially since this is an anonymous bulletin board, therefore you are making a blanket statement as how you will judge younger people. And you question our disrespect regarding the senior crew? We have seen the disrespectful and selfish attitude of many senior pilots that will not stand with the throngs of younger crew to help us ensure a meager future compared to what they have had, and then we receive statements of such that further threaten our future because we are striving for better working conditions. It is not our fault that the senior crew is where they are and they are bitter about their choices over the years, which helped put the crews in the COS that was forced on us all.


[This message has been edited by AtRisk (edited 24 September 2000).]

[Midnight Rambler]

Full Slab, you are full of something but it isn't the wisdom one would expect of a mature and senior pilot. AtRisk might have opinions that are at variance with your own and in a free and democratic society that is his inalienable right. He might also not have the benefit of an education as highly esteemed as yours but does that mean he is uneducated? I think not.

You do your cause, whatever it is, a disservice by denigrating a fellow pilot with such sanctimonious and patronising posts.

[happyldg]

Hello ladies and Germs.
I think everyone have missed the first shot fired for age 60 retirement at CX. The "test" was when the mainline retired Capt(age 55) went to fly the freighters until age 60.
More volunteers than vacancies regardless of what you think.

Here we go again, as usual, one step BEHIND AGAIN! :rolleyes:

Remember: CX management always win.

[jtr]

Hey full slab, you forgot to put the little smilies `taking the p~iss` icon in your post.

You were joking right?....

Full slab.... Full slab..??

You weren`t?

On behalf of all CX crew who realise that deep down, underneath that bitter, self centred exterior, is a pathetic, lonely soul, just trying to get out... I would like to say........

http://smilecwm.tripod.com/dvv/boid.gif

[This message has been edited by jtr (edited 24 September 2000).]

[This message has been edited by jtr (edited 24 September 2000).]

[Full Slab]

Ya....Right!

[10sne1]

Hey FS;

When flying with a pr1ck like you I would rather be PNF, or better yet book off! See ya at check-in!

[mole]

What an eye opener this thread has become. I really had no idea that we had so many immature misfits in the company. Why on earth did management decide to employ such people?

[Allupwt]

Careful with the mud slinging?!?!?

[InUSAandObserving]

Wow. Keeping up with this bb is so very interesting. Having just gone through the uhm midlife crisis thing with my wife and I. I hate to agree with the posts but it is pretty much what it is all about. After the divorce 5 months now the younger woman started in on me about how I was always trying to be younger than I am. She left so now here I sit reading these posts and knowing exactly what they are talking about. Perhaps some of you should listen. Well you never listened to me about getting a good PR firm to represent you. So I figure you won't listen again. Still 52 and not going to get any younger.

[EX HARBOUR DOOD]

The fact that these guys are continuing on is a disgrace and an admission of a failure in life! How sad some of these chaps left Airline jobs in their home countries so many years ago for money.That money now cannot buy them a thing.So dont worry about them guys,please,please just dont make the same mistake.There is no shame in admitting to wanting a life.Get on with setting your future straight,now.

[Jaded]

Most of us who were around in the 80's got very quick commands. That in itself has put a bulge in the system.

There are so many expat jobs for retirees around in the world it seems a shame to block the progression of younger guys.

Apart from the money there's career progression and satisfaction in promotion.

I admit some of the posts here are getting a bit unpleasant. But the strength of feeling is understandable.

[Cloud Cuckooland]

Hey, You three. There is an Ad. in this weeks Flight International for Dragonair & Atlas that would suit you lot. I'm guessing here, but there is an EGM coming up and I think it is about you. Go with dignity now.

[Thrust]

For all we know Full "Slab" could be a new joiner. I expect if he were a Captain he would do more than his fair share of easy PNF sectors. Nice to see that you maintain your track too Mole. If retirement age 60 comes into existance in CX mainline in your lifetime I'll be very suprised indeed!

In a previous post I was wrong. I thought extensions were no great problem. After discussion with an AOA principal officer I see the "dark side".

I believe NR was lead down the garden path by John Findlay and has stated on record that the said 3 extended Captains are on new contracts; ie direct entry captains on B scale. The extraodinary EGM is being called as a result of this discussion. Apparently NR was aghast at the realization of his admission to the AOA.

Turn on the fan here comes the sh!t.

[Sizzle]

Krono on sick leave.

[AtRisk]

Just having a great day today.