My Beng degree (is it worth it?)

[Stevob]

Im currently studying in my first year of a Beng degree in Aeromechanical engineering at the university of wales. Unfortunately, the course has proven to be more mechanical than aero, and i am considering leaving the course. I was wondering if leaving the course and starting full time work would significantly reduce my prospects for employment as a pilot or even make it difficult to obtain financial support for my training?

help plz!

[Dusty_B]

Tough one.
Quit something, and it looks bad.
Fail something 'cause you weren't that interested? Looks worse.

I have been in your situation though. I changed degree courses in week 9 of my first year, from Aeromechanical Systems to Software Engineering.

My reasons for switching were twofold:
1) Any heavy engineering degree requires far more time,dedication and staying power than most BA and BSc courses in Crayola. I wanted to fly, not be an engineer, so my initial desire to do an aero engineering was "out of interest" rather than career orientated. However, I did need a degree for my chosen career.
2) Because of the densely packed timetable (two or three period off each week max, plus Wednesday afternoon), I couldn't get out to the airfield often enough to make good progress (we couldn't fly at the weekends).

I moved to Software because: the timetable was far lighter, with one morning and two afternoons off each week; It was still and Engineering degree (ie, professional); I had enough previous experience with programming (on my Sinclair, and project work at Air Cadets) to be able to jump in to the course 10 weeks late without any problems. Any later (ie after Christmas) and it might have been pushing it.

Perhaps a third of the heavy engineering students (aero and mechanical) failed or quit during their first year. Few of them stayed on to resit the year - they were the ones that really wanted to be engineers. Everyone else...?

So you can look at this two ways. Do you NEED a degree? you have three options:

a) Quit. Go get a job. Don't waste any more money at university, you'll just be in a huge debt at the end of it. You'll have enough of that doing your ATPLs, why start behind?

b) Sit it out, push on with the course. You may grow to like it! If you fail the first year exams, see c2!

c1) Quit. Go get a job, stop throwing money away this year.
c2) Sit it out. Fail gracefully.
In either case, prepare to return to uni next year: Use the time to talk to tutors and arrange to "transfer" to another course after the summer. That way you don't have to worry about being to late for this year's UCAS submissions. Pick a course that you'll be able to ace. Doesn't mean to underwater basket weaving or heaven forbid Geography, but something a little less intensive. One that will give you a timetable slack enough to pay your way through uni so that you are in a great financial position when it comes to doing whats really important: your ATPL training.

What matters is that if you quit, you turn it round and make it a positive decision.

Degrees are looked upon favorably. An aviation related degree or business management course would probably be looked upon more favorably than a History of Art degree. But does it really matter if they are looking for FOs and potential Captains rather than business managers? Nope.
But degrees are not the be-all and end-all. On my flight of 9 at Cranwell, we had one Direct Entrant straight from school (pilot), and two university drop-outs (one pilot, one regiment). Obviously the RAF did not wipe them out as quitters; I don't see why an airline would.

As the guys say below, if you are confident that you have the ability to get through the course then the rewards for sticking it out are great. If it's bugging you because it is really not want you want to do - you hate it - then pick something else where your moral will be higher and you will be more motivated by the course.

[LFS]

I had a similar dilemma when doing my aero eng course at manchester. After the first year I thought whats the point there was very little to do with aircraft and it was a very tough degree. My advice would be to stick it out. On any engineering degree the first year is fairly common and failry generic as there are fundamentals that just have to be tought. I found the course got much more interesting in the second and especially third year. It was a hard slog but I am glad that I stuck it out and got a good degree behind me.

Another alternative would be to transfer to one of the aviation degrees now being established across the country, the ones i know of are at Leeds, Salford and Cardiff.

[konastabprimo]

Yeah I agree with LFS. I was in a similar position at the start of my BEng Electronics degree but decided to stick it and I don't regret it one bit. If you want to do your ATPL training too then least you got a degree behind you just in case things go tits up.

Even though its pricey too you don't notice the student loan coming out of your wages that much, although all the same the governments going to be stinging my wages for ever probably, bast*rds!:mad:

[MPD]

Some very sound advice given in the above replies. Consider your options. If you really want to fly, you are left with the choice of paying to get your ppl. An advantage, but very expensive. On the other hand, you could try to get some airline experience in the summer months or during your placement or final year project to see if you really like it.

Take comfort in the fact that you're not the only one who has questioned if they are doing the right thing by going to university and getting a degree. However, a degree does seem to be the 'industry standard' in terms of employment.

My advice - stick with it if you're interested, study hard, plan and prepare for your future employment when you can. Make contact with a careers officer and see if they can help. When it comes to work experience, try the smaller airlines as they have less interest from the public, like Air Wales perhaps? (By no means is this comment meant as an insult to Air Wales nor any employee of the company.)

[togaroo]

The following might sound a bit trite but having been down a similar path these are some of the things that I have reflected upon since finally making it and think would have been helpful when I was deciding what to do. If you have the passion and focus it won’t matter the path you tread, you will achieve your goal.

Where do you want to be in 5 - 10 and 25 years?
How much cash do you have now and could you finance flying training if you don’t get a sponsorship or v.big loan?
What would you do if you lost your medical and were permanently grounded?
Are you interested in maths and a lot of hard work, (no- then engineering isn’t for you)?
What sort of job would you do now if you left uni and would it allow you to save for flying?
How single minded are you about going flying, are the people around you supportive of your ambitions?
What do you really want to do. Do you just want to be a pilot or do you have career aspirations?
Would you regret any decisions you make? ie do you want to be a tech captain and would a degree help (possibly)?
What would you do if your flying career never gets of the ground?
Do you want to be a pilot for the glamour?
Do you want to have loads of money, because if you take a loan out and come into the airlines now days airlines are offering a 'C' scale pay which has lower terms and conditions than previously, can you still afford your loan and live and have a lifestyle for the repayment period of the loan(5 years)?
Are you prepared to travel and relocate anywhere in the UK / Europe?
Do you like variety, constant change and boredom?
Are you prepared to work on public holidays and get up at 03:00am to go to work and watch the sun rise?

From my own experience I didn’t have the cash and my parents couldn’t put me through flight school after leaving secondary school. So I got a job in an airline and studied part time for my degree, saved then finished my degree and went out with the intention to go modular flying and if I got a helping hand (sponsorship) then fine. Finally made it to a shiny jet and loving it. I have a degree if I lose my medical can go into a profession with a minimum of fuss. I am genuinely interested in engineering so enjoyed studying for it. As it was a Mechanical degree I got exposure to lots of areas that means I could work in any sort of industry, whereas Aero is fairly specialised and leads to certain fields. As a Mech engineer I spent most of my time project and people managing (good skills for an airline), where as an aero eng may be directed towards more pure engineering. Having the degree I hoped to keep my options open. Thus I have worked outside of aviation with my degree to support a gap in flying and it was nice to have a profession to fall back onto instead of stacking shelves (which I would do but had other options).
So going back to ‘those’ questions at the top, where do you want to be and how can you get there. A great quote which I love to come back to

“Life is what happens when you are making other plans.”

Sure put all your effort into going flying but don’t neglect life to the point where you continue to look to the future for things to get better. I have too many friends that have lost their lives or partner, so you never know what is around the corner. Make a decision, stick with it and take all that you can from each day.

At the end of this whole process you can only make a decision with the information that you have with you at the time and that decision will be the best one (its not possible to have hindsight!). Make it and move on. If in your heart engineering is not for you then move on, it takes guts and conviction to say hey I was wrong and move on, but if you can back this up in an interview and say that you moved on to do something and get good results then this is still an asset. Better to go and do something positive than mess about and fail, remember a degree is going to cost you, what will be the return on your investment in time? For me I’m glad that I did my degree, I am lucky and have found a job flying looking forward to the future of a command and a technical job in an airline. It may not happen but that’s the plan.

Good luck for what ever you decide!
:D

[Stevob]

Thanks very much guys. All very helpfull. I think that my plan will be to speak to my head tutor and ask him about the final two years of the course and if they are more aero orientated. Its not that I cant cope with maths or mechanical sciences (I am actually very good with these subjects), Its just that all of the subject areas are very similar. My course has just one aero module a week and the rest are all mechanical. I understand that all Beng degrees have a large mechanical aspect to them and that a firm basis in mechanics is needed to proceed in any of them.

This fact does not unfortunately, change my perception that the course is very repetitive. There are numerous options open to me as you all helpfully posted, but I am considering maybe transfering to a different course next year. Possibly Bsc Avionics. This course wil be more on the electrical side of things and possibly more suitable to my educational interests, and career path.

I now understand that any changes I make have to have a positive aspect for them to help me in the interview room.

Thak-you all very much for your help

[UAU242]

For those people who did not do an aviation related degree but still managed to succeed at interview, you must have got asked why you chose that particular degree. How did you tackle the question? How did you convince them that flying is what you want to do as a career, not finance or software engineering etc?

[Dusty_B]

How did you convince them that flying is what you want to do as a career, not finance or software engineering etc?

Why would I want to be a Software Engineer, or god forbid an accountant?

It's a back-up plan. And for me it worked (and paid reasonably well).

You wouldn't ask a BA (Art) student why he didn't choose an aviation related degree, you just assume that he's gone for a degree course that's easy or something he enjoyed doing! What difference does it make if the degree you have is professional?

[R T Jones]

togaroo, must say your post is very impreesive. There are some good questions you ask and some have given me answers I know are not the right ones for wanting to be a pilot! But, I know I want to do it so we all have to do things we dont want to for the greater good. Very intresting post :).

[boeingbus2002]

I studied BEng in Aeronautical Systems Engineering. Like you, I was disappointed at the lack of the aeronautical side to the course. As you are in your 1st year, your course shares a lot with the other engineering courses. From your second year, you begin to have specialist modules. Although these courses are more design and theory based. More mathematical. There has been some new courses in Leeds/Salford where "Pilot Studies" are included. Maybe switching to a course of this nature is more what you are looking for. Would be better preparation for the ATPLs than "Gaussian Elimination!!" The course will get MUCH harder, and you need to apply yourself now to ensure you are on top of the work.

If you are having doubts as to whether you should stick it out or not, it depends on how you approach it. If you will do well, and have the determination to succeed, carry on. (These are good traits that they like to see in interviews). The choice of course doesnt have to be engineering.

It may also be worth mentioning that Qatar Airways' recent scheme has "preference for those with tertiary education especially in Science or Engineering".

At he very least make sure you have a plan B if the flying doesnt work out due to some situation in the future which is out of your hands.
Best of luck though :ok:

[Fat A1bert]

Good idea to speak to a member of staff and get some idea of whats to come in the next couple years (although this information should be available to you already?). I am in the 4th year of my Aerospace Engineering degree in Manchester, and as has been said already...the first year had the least to do with aerospace. Don't recall seeing much resembling aircraft in that year actually! That said, as you are doing an Aeromechanical degree, it may have less of an aerospace content than, say a purely aerospace course? Something to check.

A word of warning regarding Avionics - from an engineering point of view, very little is 'meaty' aerospace stuff. Lots of databuses, boxes with wires, industrial standards, and electronic stuff. Not the way to go if you are after aerodynamics, vibrations, propulsion etc. (i.e. how planes actually fly!). That said, a very valuable degree to leave uni with nonetheless.

Finally, have fun! Four years in I can honestly say I am a better person for going to uni, and I have loved it (despite the very hard work). If changing course means you'll be happier, do it. If uni doesn't suit you, then leave. There's no shame in doing either!

Good luck,
FA

[fonz77]

I studied at uni of wales and did aeromech degree as well. I would stay stick at it, it does get more "aero". A definite head start in pursuing a career as a pilot. Subjects like aerodynamics, thermodynamics, stress and strain really give you an idea of how and why things happen to aircraft.
Did one semester of avionics, not the most fun i ever had.

[UAU242]

dusty_b

Why would you want to be a software engineer? Because you chose the degree course! Its just an assumption. Of course just because you chose the degree that doesn't neccessarily mean that you want to pursue that field, but only you know that. How do you convince the interviewer of that? I suppose for someone with some kind of flying experience it wouldn't be so difficult, but what about someone who has little or no experience? Do you portray the degree as a back-up? Its been suggested to me that this line of reasoning represents a lack of confidence and the expectation of failure.

[togaroo]

The post script that I would like to add to the above post of mine is, it doesnt matter what experience you have a lot will come down to a bit of luck, being in the right place at the right time and possibly know the right people ;).

Overall consider that one company may look at you and another will probably think you are too old, too few/many hours, wrong school, modular not integrated. There are loads of reasons for exclusion and less of a correct receipe for success.

From the off I was always told that recruiters wanted you to be young with loads of hours with a degree and come from an integrated school with an Uni Air Squadron background..... ya ya ya. The reality is that we all come from a variety of backgrounds. As long as your experience is commensurate with your age then you will have ticked a box, it doesnt necessarily preclude you. Some airlines require more ticked boxes than others (BA). Other airlines are more interested in what sort of person you are and if they could sit next to you on a long canaries sector or have a week in Barbados and respect your licence that is issued by the CAA!!

If you really want to fly and are not interested in anything else then focus 100% on that. If you want to experience as much from life then a degree is useful, but not all that relevant to an ATPL course, the only relevant thing is the JAR exams! Any other stuff is nice to know and good background reading and a safety net for a rainy day.

The reference that doing a degree is an expectation of failure, well if you have got to an interview, the company "usually" expect you have the qualificatins required, the degree is a bonus! You may have to justify why you went to uni and not straight to flying school, for most of us Uni is ONE way of getting qualificatioins to earn a crust to pay for flying.

The nub of the issue is, do the degree if you want to study and experience uni life (its great fun - especially as engineers are expected to drink!). Otherwise save, scrimp and get training as soon as you can. If you are doing it economically then do a correspondence course and get the exams out of the way the flying is the easy and the fun bit but you need consistency. Finally newtwork, network, NETWORK, its a small industry and often jobs are filled before they are advertised or the advertisment is only out for a few days.

Keep plugging away and good luck!

PPS - Just finsihed a good read, by Laddie Lucas , Voices in the Air. Worth a read.
The most touching story is of anallied bomber that had been shot at point blank range and survived, investigation upon return to base found that the cannon shells did not explode when they hit the aircraft as there was no explosive. Inside one of the shells was a note, "This is all we can do for you now". Even little actions can have a large impact on life!

Its amazing that just over 60years ago you could have been plucked from school and at the age of 20 be in charge of a 7 man crew navigating into Germany to drop a shed load of bombs. The passion obviously doesnt go away!!