Semi-trained maintenance staff

[A and C]

It is reported in Januarys issue of the magazine of The Association of licensed aircraft engineers that they have evidence of Full B1 type rating corses being completed in two weeks resulting in engineers licence type ratings being issued.

In the UK most airframe/engine type ratings would involve a training course of 7-9 weeks

It would seem that the JAA/EASA know all about this but will not take action because of "cultural differences".

To me this is a big flight saftey issue and as an airline captain I see it as very much an issue for pilots and engineers to get together and combat this erosion of aircraft maintenance standards.

[Captain Rat]

This issue has been around ever since the JAR66 came in. As the ALAE now has the hard evidence that various European countries are issueing their respective licences with much less traing etc than the UK CAA, they have made their feelings known to the relevant autorities. (I wouldn't hold my breath on any action being taken). This is one of the reasons given behind the fact that certain other non-JAR countries such as Singapore, will only reconise a UK issued licence. Like it or not the so called level playing field when it comes to engineering licenses is far from level. And now that Europeans citizens can freely work throughout Europe and with a so called common licence....beware. The standard of license has rapidly dropped over the last few years in the UK. First it was the stopping of the oral exams now its just multichoice. getting more like an A&P everyday.

[matkat]

Captain rat for Your info an A/P license still requires and oral(as well as a practical)

[sevenforeseven]

Yes but with a A&P you get a answer book and also the answers to questions that will be asked in any oral exam, hence why a A&P stands for apply & pass.

[fescalised portion]

"Yes but with a A&P you get a answer book and also the answers to questions that will be asked in any oral exam, hence why a A&P stands for apply & pass."

Which is exactly the same system used for Pilot testing and examination under the FAA system. This is accepted worldwide, so why do the Brits always look down on the A+P system?

[WJman]

You can also pay for a one week cram course where they just give you the answers. It is so easy it is unbelievable, it cost my company $2000 usd to send me on it. As long as you have the experience and proof of it you can do this. It's crazy. There is also no official need for type endorsement courses. You can sign anything from a Cessna 172 to a 747. Some US companies offer the courses, One I know is Fedex, but still an MD-11 and MD-10 is done at the same time and is only 3 weeks long. In Canada you would need a diffrent course for each and it would be 6 to 7 weeks long. It's scary to think about how many people with little training or experience are running around signing aircraft off and repairing them. It's almost being treted like automotive maintenance.

[smudgethecat]

i hold both a b1 converted from bcar a&c and an a&p you cannot in all honesty begin to compare the two ,the a&p was a complete joke ,the standards required of a person to pass the a&c were far higher hence the reasons a&p tickets have always been regarded as a very poor second to the a&c licence

[fescalised portion]

I don't think that having a JAR licence instantly makes you a better technician. I agree that it is harder to obtain the JAR66 over the A+P, but just because you have to study harder to obtain the licence, it doesn't mean that you are a safer more dilligent certifying engineer. At the end of the day, all aircraft have to be maintained to the approved Maintenance Manual no matter what aviation authority you work under.

[Maverick Laddie]

" WJMAN "

QUOTE : " Its almost being treated like automotive maintenance

Would not agree with you there on the grounds that you get paid better salaries as an automotive engineer with far less of the responsibilities.

E.G. As a 30 year plus Licensed UK A/C with Types both fixed and rotary also holder of a US A+P not to mention Pilots License's both UK & US, I was recently offered a position in the south of the UK on £27,000 as a Licensed engineer.

:hmm:

[Saintsman]

Funny enough we were just discussing this topic before I read the thread. With the advent of computerised systems that print out the aircraft's faults and tell the engineer what to change is it any surprise that it doesn't take long to get a licence?

Gone are the days when an engineer had to know what an individual component in a valve or resister in a black box did. Whether that is good or bad remains to be seen.

Also, whilst it may be true a LAE earns more than a motor mechanic it is interesting that the hourly rate for maintenance is far higher at a garage than it is at an MRO.

[chuks]

A friend was telling about her nephew in Germany who was very lucky to be accepted for an apprenticeship as an automotive technician.

Nowadays the field is called 'mechatronics' I believe, since with modern cars you need to know a lot about trouble-shooting digital logic systems. For instance a lot of cars now use `single-wire´looms rather than the good old bundle of spaghetti I knew how to fix.

And when I tipped over my BMW motorcycle it triggered a fault in the ABS braking system that required a reset using a computer diagnostic system, since the wheel speed had differed between the front and rear wheels. This was read as a logic fault by the control unit; I didn't have a clue what was going on. I just went on my nose, picked the bike up and... no more ABS! WTF?

The German kid didn't have good marks in school. Used to be that meant you ended up as a `grease monkey´. Nowadays it means you usually won't make the grade learning to work with modern automotive systems, which are often ahead of comparable aircraft systems. (Part of the reason for this is the much higher levels of reliability and safety required for aircraft systems.)

I know of a few guys who have dropped out of aviation to work on cars. More money, better terms and conditions and waaaay less responsibility.

As a pilot my hat is off to aircraft maintenance technicians, actually. I started off in the US Army as a mechanic before realising that it mean less work/more fun/more money to be a pilot. Plus, I was a pretty crap mechanic!

[ironbutt57]

Yes WJ man if I were you I'd stay well away from travelling as a pax on any US airline....maintained by poorly trained mechanics....:mad: :mad:

[Just an Engineer]

We should all be concerned over the slow fall of standards for a variety of reasons. Safety is of course the primary reason however there is also the incidental point of salary.

You cannot complain over the years about declining worth of salaries and then miss the point of lowering standards as these points are linked. Years ago when Apprenticeships were disappearing due to their high costs the question of maintaining adequate number of qualified engineers in the industry was much talked about. How do you think they solved it...?

Clue: We are talking about it.....


I don't think that having a JAR license instantly makes you a better technician. I agree that it is harder to obtain the JAR66 over the A+P, but just because you have to study harder to obtain the license...

Why is then that certain countries only accept UK Licenses (with all the extra costs that involves), even though we supposedly have a pan european licencing system ?

It’s undoubtedly because if they employ somebody with a UK license they know they are getting somebody who generally (I use that word as a caution because as above there are of course tw@ts in any country/License system!) has a higher standard of knowledge and experience.

[DoctorA300]

Just an engineer,
I think you missed my point sunshine, I hold both. What I ment was this predominant uk attitude of"we are the greatest", let me clue you up me lad, you are no brighter OR dimmer than anyone else, the fact that the UK Caa required you to know boundless quantities of irrelevant cr@p to pass your licence does NOT improve your skills in the real world.
Doc

[AUTOGLIDE]

Hmmm, aircraft maintenance, as a profession went south years ago. There are two types of Engineer/Technician left, those leaving for something better and those who will still be having these debates in 10 years and be even more bitter. Cynical i know, but true.

[fescalised portion]

Doctor A300............Absolutely spot on!!!

[matkat]

Doctor&Autoglide You have My vote,I also hold all licenses mentioned and Held(not any more)CRS apps on F100 DC8 and 747 all variants i have met some t55ts holding all license types(possibly I am one of them)however I left the line years ago as can make far more in engineering.And really thats what it´s all about I am sick of the Hes got this Hes got that It does not make one iota of difference a person is a person end of story.

[HOVIS]

The difference between A&P and A&C/B1 is not the standard of Technician/Engineer but the responsibilities they hold. Under the US system, in my experience, maintenance decisions are taken by suitably qualified "inspectors" sat in an office at base. The A&P Mechanic can only raise deffered items/carry forwards with their say so. The A&P Mechanic acts as the eyes and hands of the Inspector. (On a line outstation anyway).

However a CAA/JAR/EASA licensed Engineer can certify almost anything at his own discretion as long as he remains within the bounds of the MEL/FIM/SRM/MM Etc.

The only clever bit is that the A&P Mechanic has less responsibility has easier exams to pass AND gets paid a damn site more than a A&C/B1.:mad:


To put it in perspective I know of several UK unlicensed technicians who learned the A&P exams off by heart from a CDROM. They then went to the 'states, passed the course and exams in less than a week (one bloke did it in 3 days!) came back and got jobs certifying US registered a/c.

Good luck to 'em I say!:ok:

I just wish I'd done it too.:(

[fescalised portion]

Hovis.......From my own experience, I believe it to be the other way round. An A+P technician who is fleet qualified on type and holding certain other company approvals, can perform any tasks from taxiing an A/C, full power runs, RII inspections, upgrading an autoland status, troubleshooting an autopilot problem, signing an airworthiness release, raise/clear MEL's etc, etc..... All of this is covered by just one licence.

You are expected to use your own knowledge and training to accomplish these and many other tasks safely and I.A.W. the approved documents. You certainly do not take orders about what you can and cannot do from the other end of a telephone line. If however, there is a problem that you require help with, then obviously you would ask for help. But to say that under the US system the A+P mechanic working at an outstation is some kind of no-brained robot that cannot think for themselves is completely inaccurate.

Perhaps an A+P technician is paid more, but maybe they might deserve it based on the level of responsibility they hold.

[HOVIS]

FP, I'm not sure if there is a difference between an A&P MECHANIC and an A&P TECHNICIAN.
If there is then that is why our experiences differ.

A+P mechanic working at an outstation is some kind of no-brained robot that cannot think for themselves is completely inaccurate.

My point was that they are not ALLOWED to think for themselves.

I was constantly frustrated by the system when working US reg aircraft.

[fescalised portion]

"My point was that they are not ALLOWED to think for themselves.

I was constantly frustrated by the system when working US reg aircraft."

Really...... Well, Like I said, that's not the way it is done from my experience. Did you work for a US airline or was your employer contracted to undertake the maintenance on the US registered aircraft? If the latter is so, then that is where the difference is. I work for a US airline and can accomplish all of the items that I mentioned previously without any outside interference. As I said earlier, I am expected to use my own knowledge, training and skill to safely maintain the aircraft IAW the approved documents/manuals.

If you work for a contracted maintenance organisation, then you will have restrictions and limitations to work that you can and cannot perform, on other operators aircraft using their procedures. I know that the US system is different in some respects, but to say that A+P certified mechs/techs (there is no difference) cannot think for themselves is not at all true, believe me.....

[HOVIS]

Well that's cleared that up.

Still doesn't explain though how an unlicensed individual can get an A&P in 3 days, just by memorising the answers..

Q1...B

Q2..C

Q3..A


I have seen this happen. When the individual was asked the same questions without having the multi choice answers in front of him the answers given were still..

B, C, A.


They were unable to give a verbal answer to the question.:eek:

So, is this dumbing down??

[cutmeownthroatdibler]

Back tracking a bit here, but I believe it is possible to get a UK issued JAR license using cloak and dagger means too.

You initially apply to tha CAA, then take your exams in, for example, Switzerland, (a full B1 course was at the time just seven weeks, including exams, and I didn't hear of anybody failing!)

You then submit your pass certificates to the CAA, who are of course obliged to accept them, and voila, you have a UK issued license.

I worked in Switzerland, and my licensed collegues included an ex bus driver, an ex cleaner, an ex school teacher,and even one guy who's previous job was, I'm led to believe, flipping burgers at Mc Donalds.

So, even with the UK issued licenses, all that glitters is not neccessarily gold.

Tchuss