www.nevrfly***.com

[Jacobest]

Hi all
Recently I was searching the internet ragarding the lawsuit of SAA against an unsatisfied passenger who started his own website, www.neverfly***.com (the *** stands for......) which seems to no longer exist. Now, I dont know if this has been covered here before, although I looked. I found a lot of interesting articles regarding this. Then I came accross an article which caught my eye. It is reasonably old but very relevent to this site. The link is http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2004/09/black_empowerme.php

I invite you all to read it and place your comments here. Could make for an interesting topic or could die a horrible death.
Cheers
:ok:

[Rhodie]

Interesting reading...

So true..

So sad.. :{

Zim has taken 20 years (give say 4 years after '81 of growth) to hit zero.. I think SA has improved on that by half... 10 years and the place is rapidly disintegrating...

Makes me :mad: mad...

R

[B Sousa]

Neverflysaa.com is Toast. Either the owner accomplished his goal, and he was really pissed off; or SAA came to an agreement (Paid him off)

[Jacobest]

To quote from the article
More ominously, Mr. Six and his wife received telephone death threats at their home—though only people who had access to SAA records would have had the number, since it was in his wife’s maiden name—and someone has tried to put his web page out of business by flooding it with hits. The attacks failed, and his web page continues.

Sounds alot like another case when people tried to get behind the truth about the Helderberg.

What amazes me about this article is the fact that I have not seen this anywhere in the local media, yet I have now found the same article at five different INDEPENDENT News agencies. Can it be possible that freedom of speech no longer apply in SA?
:ok:

[putco]

Haven't read the article but the service on SAA is really banana standard.

I came to Hong Kong yesterday and the hostie blocked the aisle with her open suitcase, not letting anyone through to the loo until she had located a pot of hair cream for her mate fresh from the bunk!

But I wonder why I'm surprised....

[kq777]

The article on the "American Renaissance" site is skewed, nuff said!!

Whats the main premise here ?

[Jacobest]

kq777
Can you maybe elaborate on your statement, and why you believe it to be so.

Also found it here: http://southafrica.indymedia.org/news/2004/07/6393.php

Found more here:
http://business.iafrica.com/news/888366.htm

Found more here:
http://www.epherald.co.za/herald/2002/01/28/news/saa.htm

Found the arbitration results for the court case here:
http://www.arb-forum.com/domains/decisions/109385.htm

So if this article is so "skewed" as you say, it would appear that we have a lot of skew people out there.

:ok:

[BAKELA]

Jaco, thanks for that one. Some qoutes from the article and comments...if there are suitable non-white..or even if there are non-suitable non-white...

SAA wasn't the only operator (read SAA Alliance partner) to use restructuring (apply for your own post pal!...) as a means to get rid of people? Or am I wrong here? How do you demote a Chief Pilot to a Line Captain...easy...restructure...?Recently the airline cut four flights a week to the US because of declining demand. Rich Mkhondo said today (6 January 2005) that the CT flights to the US are being axed early this year..the reason...the same...declining demand. The more things change, the more they stay the same. SAA also suffers from extraordinarily high baggage theft rates, What's new?The height of effrontery came, however, when a previous head of the legal department—the Chief Council of SAA—had to ask the company to guarantee a home mortgage. No commercial bank would lend to him because of his miserable credit rating. He had failed to mention his string of financial indiscretions when he was made top lawyer at SAA, and no one in the increasingly affirmative-action personnel department had bothered to ask.Is this the same guy involved in the delay with the STAR-alliance contract in 2004...or do I have it wrong here?

Whatever needs and maybe have to be done, be it AA, fast tracking PDI's, gravy trains etc, in terms of international public relations, the message will get through to SAA, although, by then, I think it will be too late.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

What happened to SAA privatising? Wasn't that meant to have happened a year or two ago already?

If they do, I reckon BA Comair will be our new national carrier as SAA won't have the taxpayer to bail them out....

[Jacobest]

Bakela, thanks for that, I have another quote and a question.

Unfortunately, almost none of the black cadet pilots made it through the Australian training, and were sent home. This caused great unhappiness in SAA management which, in July 2002, decided to bring pilot training back to South Africa, where blacks might not fail tests in such great numbers. The few black pilots who made it through the course in Australia were appointed to senior posts, but suffered a serious setback in 2000, when seven—that is to say almost all of them—were arrested on charges of bribing their way through the Civil Aviation examination paper that put them at the controls of passenger jets. The pilots each paid approximately 7,000 Rand (US$ 650) to get a copy of the Airline Transport Pilots License examination paper before taking the test. Two non-white members of South Africa’s Civil Aviation Authority were also arrested along with the pilots. Two of the pilots were found guilty but fled the country before sentencing, and the rest were suspended. However when the cases of the remaining five came to court, the files had disappeared and the charges had to be dropped for lack of evidence. The parliamentary opposition tried to launch an investigation into this failure to prosecute, but that came to nothing. Today, many of the pilots are back flying for SAA.

Are these guys really back flying for SAA? Where they made to rewrite the exams? did they keep there ATP licenses? Did they buy there COMM licenses as well?

SHOULD PASSENGERS BE ALLOWED TO CHOOSE WHICH PILOTS THEY CAN FLY WITH?
:ok:

[B Sousa]

Jacobest.....What do you think, maybe that statement your quoting only means its much easier to fly a 747 than most may think...Ha Ha.
Guarantee, My family wont do SAA again.....

[APR]

This article is indeed skewed. There are as many truths as there are untruths in this article. Typical journo!

A couple of points though:

1. While the pilot retirement age was under attack by management, they were not successful in lowering the age to 50. It still is 60.

2. The pilots involved with the license scam were not cadets! They had already passed thier ATP exams in Ozzie.

3. The B744 operated (then) the US routes. The toilets flushed by means of a little water and alot of suction! Was always fun watching the turd go bye-bye in one second flat! It would be nearly impossible to flooded them. Maybe Six missed the target! Haha!

4. Cabin attendants not fluent in english. So what! Not everybodies first language is english.

5. Equity is the guilty party as far as baggage theft is concerned. The last I heard is that the relationship between SAA and Equity is very strained due to this very reason.

6. 954 pilots? Another lie.

7. The pilot held in the US due to visa problems was not guilty at all. The fault lies squarely at the US consulate's door. Racial profiling at NY, if you ask me.

8. A major disaster is only a matter of time. All the international airlines that audit SAA on a regular basis seem to disagree. But then again speculation is part of journolism. I speculate that the author suffers from serious, and continuous bowel moventments based on some of the BS he writes.

9. Flying with defered snags is part of ALL airline operations. It is something that all crew members from all airlines deal with on a daily basis. That's the whole porpose of the DDM/MEL. If it's not in the DDM/MEL, you don't fly!

10. All the engine failures! The classics were replaced. The B732 is next. I had an engine failure not to long ago, and the a/c was actually maintained by Safair!

11. Conman did bring the SAA into the black (finance wise), and we all know how he did it! Sell, sell, sell!


Well, now that was fun!

Oh, and BAKELA please be gentle with me...... Hehe.

[Jacobest]

Hello APR
Thanks for the input. Good to hear the other side of the story.
If those guys did pass their ATP in auzzie as you say, why did they then even try to buy their ATP here. Surely the exam should have been a breeze for them. AND ARE THEY BACK WITH SAA?
What happened to the documents from the court case?
Thanks
:ok:

[CS man]

So sad to hear some of the comments about SAA, As a retired BA guy every time that I needed assistance with the aircraft be it in JHB/DUR/CPT the Saa engineers were the best. Best wishes to you all in SA and in AIR Malawi where I spent a very happy secondment on the 1-11
CS man

[APR]

Jacobest,

To my best knowledge the cadets had nothing to do with license scam. Nothing at all. Some other pilots - yes, cadets - no. I don't know the whole story, but I seem to recall other airlines pilots were also involved. Nombo had his fake ATP while at SAX already!And he flew as a captain!

The way I understand it, the cadets arrived in SA with a frozen ATP, no reason to write or "buy" the exams here in SA. They only needed to pass the flight test when they got the right amount of hours. I know some of them did the flight test on GA a/c, out of thier own pocket. Much like the rest of us.

As for your last two questions, I really don't know. Maybe someone else can answer that. I'd also like to know.

[cavortingcheetah]

:( SAA sounds like the horror pickle. There be tales of bad training, bad pilots, bad cabin crew and bad route structure judgement.
Fly SAA? I think not. In the old days, when the First Class Stewards wore white gloves, it was suspect enough. :hmm:

[exjet]

Why it must be turned into a black/white issue? How many white South Africans are flying with SA airlines / bizjets in SA with validated Swazi and FAA licences, contary to the 1 year limit. Are they any better than than the guy who actually wrote the exam (albeit stolen).

AA is part of the price that has to be paid - it will pass when market forces start playing their part again - could take a while tho'

[maxrated]

While fully agreeing with the fact that declining service standards on SAA are true and disturbing, it upsets me to see the slagging off of the cadet pilots , ex aussie trained and other by people who were in absolutly NO, ZERO, NADA position to comment on the quality of these pilots.

I personally flew with alot of these cadets ( black and white)who were seconded to my company to fly on contract in some seriously challenging enviroments in Africa and the Middle East and all of them were first class guys and girls. All were far more dilligent and clued up than the so called experienced company pilots, myself included, and it was a hard task to try and match these guys on an academic and theoretical level, all they lacked was hands on flying experience, which they were there to get.

Dont slagg pilots off that you've never flown with especially when its routed in Racial bias.

[BAKELA]

Maxrated,

Saw both sides of the coin with them as well. On guy, who was also implicated in the SA CAA licence scam was as sharp as a Minora, except I'm led to believe thing went horribly wrong for him later while (trying) transferring to SAA.

However, in true Flight Simulator '98 fashion, I also saw plenty of them lose it completely when the FMS stopped 'thinking' for them and 'showing' them the way. Mark one eyeball...can't beat it in Africa. it was a hard task to try and match these guys on an academic and theoretical level, I think this underlines my last statement.all they lacked was hands on flying experience, which they were there to getSo we are back to "multi crew single pilot operations"? :sad:

[ou Trek dronkie]

Quote:

"Fly SAA? I think not. In the old days, when the First Class Stewards wore white gloves, it was suspect enough."

And just what does this statement mean please ? I simply do not remember white gloves ever (could be the memory of course). But exactly when was Spoories "suspect" and in what way ?

oTd

[SortieIII]

Have to agree, Dronkie! Never a white glove in sight in my 40 years of being a Spories pax.

[cavortingcheetah]

:p
Some few years ago SAA revised it's cabin crew requirements to cater for stewards of one particular bent. A group of regular long haul first class passengers objected to this concept. They mooted the suggestion, very, very, seriously, that all stwerds be required to wear white gloves. This would then obviate the 'thumb in the coffee cup' syndrome and no doubt, help curb the spread of Aids. This last malaise now seems to be denied as HIV related by the SA Gov and thus, by extension, the Department of Transport and thus, by further extension, Spoories.
Nothing homophobic or rascist about this but rather a statement of passengers' goodwill intent.:suspect:

[fluffyfan]

A serious amount of BS in this forum, firstly by people who dont have a clue about the facts but feel compelled to write ridiculous statements (ie retirement age going to 50......actually in the process of trying to increase it to 63), I think there are a few Comair /Nationwide old Captains writing in this forum who are seriousley pissed off they never made it in to SAA. If SAA is so bad, please explain, 6 Multi-million Rand State of the Art Simulators, pilots undergo primary and secondary training every 6 months (just like any major) unlike Airlink/Nationwide, The most Modern fleet in Africa 737-800`s (with HUD...only 3 other airlines in the world with this technology) A319 (just delivered) A340/200/300/600, 747-400 and about 6 737-200 which should be gone in a few months...................Dont even mention the race issue, all the pilots at SAA have passed there ratings by a variety of different training captains, some old school airforce and some civilain .........no favoritism here. Would the STAR alliance even concider SAA as a member if we were not up to standard, would Lufthansa, Delta, or any of our other parters who regularly audit us, like we do to them. Why is every pilot with a brain trying to get in to SAA, thousands of applications every day, I will tell you why, better salary, better aircraft, better training facilities, less chance of loosing your job when your current employment goes bust. If you want to talk about Dodgy operations then lets talk about Nationwide (a place I used to work), Captains threatened with being fired if they dont take deficient aircraft (MEL items stating aircraft can not go ie like instrument comparitorand this was at night in IMC), Captains of age 24........good luck, at SAA you wont even smell command unless you have been there 15 years (at present), you work out who has more experience. At Nationwide the pilots are seriously unhappy, underpaid and overworked, the aircraft are old (737-200/727 and one 767) and not well maintained. I have no Idea how they manage to fly the 767 to London, the law states they have to have an approved ETOPS maitenance program, they dont, the crew have no ETOPS training of any worth, just a few ex Air Zimbabwe Training Captains with there knowledge and some stuff they stole from SAA, Nationwide have just been caught with there pants down using performance figures stolen from the Comair Simulator (which Comair bought from SAA)............I will stop here, I could go on for ages, I have mates in all the airlines and they all want to be in SAA its a no brainer, I will give you one thing though, the Nationwide Air hostesses are probably the best, prettiest, most efficient etc. At SAA, they are adequate but not brilliant and why? not because they are mostly black, in fact the worst ones I have seen are the sour old white cows who are disgruntled with everything and hate pilots, but anyway fly Nationwide, fly 1-Time................good luck its your life.

[Antman]

fluffyfan

Nice argument you make, pity you don't have all your facts correct. You may be right about Nationwide but if SAA are so great howcome so many of my fellow South Africans here (EK), are ex-SAA.
Just for your info Comair's 737-200 sim did not come from SAA it actually came from BA and the -300/400/500 sim I think comes from Lufthansa.

The other thing is would SAA have all those nice new toys if they didn't have the taxpayer garanteeing the bank loans. About the nice HUD's in the -800, does it make it possible to fly a Cat III approach onto any ILS runway? NO!! You can still only fly down to the runways ILS minimums, be they Cat I , II or III, so no real benefit until Cat IIIc is available by which time the -800 will be gone, so nice toy, waste of money though.

By the way I think there are very very few Comair captains who have a burning desire to go to SAA. Those that wanted to are there already, senior to you I wager.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

fluffyfan

1Time may not have all the sims and toys on the premises but they get the training required overseas. Of course you conveniently omitted to mention that all the shiny new stuff at SAA is paid for (once again) by the long suffering taxpayer.

The real difference between 1Time and SAA? At least 1Time is MAKING money for their shareholders...:E

Be aware that if SAA privatises and stops sponging off the taxpayer, you may well be knocking on the door at 1Time for a job.

[fluffyfan]

Antman, sorry worded that wrong in my last post, I did not mean that Comair bought the 200 simulator from SAA (SAA still has the 200 simulator), I meant that they bought there performance figures from SAA. And yes, the taxpayer does and always has helped SAA, I cant change that, actually glad that we are Government owned because with our series of horrific past CEO's I agree we would not exist any more without Tax money. A few points though, SAA made a large operating profit last lear (think the figure is in the 130 Million area but not sure)..........Operational profit, that is......unfortunatley the Clown driving the operation put all his eggs in one basket and bet on the rand weakening and we all know the rest with the hedge fund and the overall loss. The problem I have with some of the postings in this forum is that people seem to think SAA is a terrible operation and you are in iminent danger if you fly SAA, this is just plain not true, Our Flight operation side is up there with the best in the world, the Aircraft are modern and our training also on standard with world norms, Other Operators are not, In my opinion Comair is very good, SAX is Good, Airlink is bad (no recurent training), Nationwide is bad...for numerous reasons, 1Time.....honestly dont know too much about them except there pilots work very long hours.

As for your question about why so many ex-SAA pilots over there, well who knows, maybe the crime in SA, maybe they want better salaries, but there are a few guys back in SAA after various contacts all over the world, and the grass is not always greener on the other side according to them....One thing I gaurantee you, they did not leave SAA for reasons of declining standards and Afirmative action.

There are over 870 pilots at SAA, at present less than 10% of them are not white males so the rumors in this forum are a load of rubbish, and of that 10% I hear from the captains I fly with that they are mostly very good operators, well on Standard.

Solid Rust Twotter.............its very unlikley SAA will ever go down, dont believe the rumour mill, SAA does make an operating profit, and with the up and coming Soccer world cup there is lots of talk of expansion.....maybe that good for you, maybe we will see you knoking on the door at SAA, and if you do, good move.

Antman....me again, just wanted to let you know, that HUD is an amazing piece of equipment, I dont use it from my seat but the Captains who do rave about it, I have seen it in the Sim........Now dont laugh but it costs over R1 Million for each system, thankfully paid for by the taxpayer ;) .........SAA is in the process of talking to SACAA about approval for reduced minimas in a few places (george being one of them) also just recieved approval for RVR of 75m Takeoff`s in certain places (Cape Town so far)........they will be pulished soon in the Jepp plates you will see it under "Aircraft fitted with Visual Guidance systems"................and although not approved for CatIIIc, let me assure you if you had to do one in anger, it is no problem at all, you dont need to see the runway at all.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

fluffy

There have been threats of SAA going private for a while now. It's overdue by at least a year, if not more, from the projected date. What seems to be the problem?:E

An operating profit is always a good thing and the crews at SAA are by no means the worst around (unless you count the obnoxious, arrogant ones but that's just attitude, not capability.). The reality is that any operating profit is being eroded by a top heavy structure and lack of foresight. Unfortunately, the hordes of managers, secretaries and other parasites are doing the company no good at all. Bad planning and wasteful expenditure don't help things. If SAA goes private they will fail with those monkeys still in place. Until that changes I don't believe your doors are in any danger from the impact of my knuckles...

[fluffyfan]

Solid rust, got to be honest with you have not heard of any news lately about privatisation dont think anything will happen until 2010 after Soccer world cup even then dont know if it will ever happen, too much money to be made for Government, that is if we ever get a reliable management team. The Present guy seems to be doing a good job at the moment cutting out all the useless managers, will just have to wait and see. At the moment big fight going on within SAA pilots union SAAPA, a few guys want to extend the retirement age to 63, others dont, am sure the company is happily sitting back and watching us fight eachother........imagine the caos.

Just a final note to Antman, was in the 737-800 Sim the other day with an instuctor (800 Captain) who has flown A320/A340 and asked him what he thought of Boeing/Airbus his exact words were that even with its HUD the Boing Aircraft is like an old fashoned type writer compared to a pentuim 4 that is the Airbus......dont know what to say to this, have never flown Airbus

[In the hot seat]

its very unlikley SAA will ever go down, dont believe the rumour mill

I suspect the Swiss and Belgian public thought the same of their national carriers.:hmm:

[yogibear]

Fluffy:mad: fan....

Maybe you should practice what you preach and not go around posting things you know squat about. Obviously you must be pretty pissed off that you could not cut it at Nationwide and because of that you had to leave (or resigned but who cares) and now you are slagging the airline off........Would you not also have all the latest and fanciest gadgets know to man if you had "Joe public" footing the bill for all of them????????

Check out all 'your' facts about VB's operation before you start slagging them of ok.....:mad:

You are welcome to point fingers but maybe you should look in the mirror once in a while and realise that the only time Nationwide pax where ever at risk was when you where in charge of handle-bars (a saying for some-one who is in command in case you dont get the jist..... )

PS: You are not as anonymous as you think are and thank god you dont work for Nationwide anymore !!!!!

PPS: The 767 is in for ETOPS next week and crew is also starting extensive ETOPS training. The 72's and 3's (including the 735's) all have clean bills of health from CAA and besides I dont see any of the Asian Tsunami survivors complaining about the aircraft when the 'National Airline' could not even be bothered to send an aircraft and before you go into the 'SAA did not have an aircraft available' speach....DONT !!!!!:mad: :}

[In the hot seat]

the crews at SAA are by no means the worst around

Oh, I beg to differ.

I have the dubious honour of working with a multitude of SAA crews on various routes and various aircraft everyday. They are by far the worst when it comes to listening out on frequency (even when it's :mad: busy), being able to read back AND comply with more than 2 instructions at a time (they either read back OR comply ... seldom both), they are BY FAR more prone to level busts and ALWAYS think that they are entitled to some sort of priority service. A close second, when it comes to bad attitude and total misconception of ATM, is Qantas. But the Spoories lot pip them to the post in this regard too. The best thing that can be said about Spoories crew is that they have as many landings as they have take offs:=

Who are the best and most professional lot to deal with, I hear you ask?
The guys from Air Botswana beat the pants off everyone else any day of the week:ok:

Now when it comes to onboard service and comfort on SAA, I have only one thing to say ... NEVER AGAIN!:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[fluffyfan]

yogibear.........you say Nationwide crews are in for ETOPS training only now! thats nice how long you been flying the route for??? and as for your aircraft having a clean bill of health, its amazing what some of Vernon's money can do, weren't you lot the ones flying with no Oxygen on your BAC 111 also, some sort of special dispensation.........Ill bet someone made some money for sure. I can only assume you are in some sort of management position at Nationwide, that is why you are defending them like this, all your pilots think you lot are a bunch of wankers, your pilots are the lowest paid in the industry, they work the hardest, lucky they have just organised themselves a pension plan and medical, oh by the way do you still make your pilots buy there own ratings before you hire them.............up yours pal....hey does your Boss still have a black eye after his own son beat the crap out of him at the office :=

In the hot seat..............Are you guys still getting nice travel benifits from Nationwide?..........enough said.......... as for the ATC standard in SA, especially JHB I actually dont have time to go into that right now ..........All I can say is lucky we have a few foreign ATC's to help you guys out, they are much better than the home grown variety, maybe you should sit back and watch them for a change.............You might think Nationwide are the Kings because you get free tickets from them, or maybe they impress you with there tight turns onto final approach, or maybe the fancy glide approach they pull off now and then, maybe its the landings in Cat II conditions with neither crew or aircraft rated to do it, could be any of these reasons. You see in an airline serious about safety we have a thing called AIMS, a box in the aircraft which monitors the flight, and if you are not approach stable by a certain point it will send a report off to the boss and you get to go and have tea with him while he discusses your future or lack of it.....................Air Botswana, sorry had to laugh at this, if your idea of a good airline is there radio procedures then I am worried about you lot..........I am glad they (Air Botswana) have some more aircraft after one of there pilots went and Kamikazied himself ito the ATR fleet.

[mikemal]

Fluffyfan

Don't get too serious about the hot seat and company. They are setting you up, hoping for (and getting) a rise.

Being where you are now, you know the standards under which SAA Flight Operations operates, as you have been elsewhere and have something to compare these to. I wonder if the other fellows are able to make the same comparison.

The forum is probably not the place to call each other names, as there are a lot of damn good pilots flying for other companies, sometimes in less-than-ideal equipment, and under difficult economic conditions.

Give them their due, and ignore the idiots who have no other agenda than trying to make you and your company look really crappy.

Hello "in the hot seat".

I see that your address is "in JNB - for now". How about making that -- "used to be in JNB"!

You say that you have worked with SAA crews. I have my doubts. If you are in ATC, then you have been on the outside looking in (sorry, inside, looking out). ATC may not be perfect, for sure, but there is more to life than that. By the way, it is probably a good procedure, ATC-wise, to limit your instructions to one important one at a time. Many accidents have been caused by multiple instructions from ATC - Turn left ..., descend ..., QNH ...., speed ...., contact Tower ..... Sorry, is that not what you mean?


However, if you were in the cockpit you would know that you are talking a load of codswallop. If you would like to PM me, I will extend an invitation to you to visit us at the training centre, and see just what goes into the training of a competent cockpit crew.

It is a poor show to blackmouth the entire operation from what you hear in the tower.

Have a nice day, Sir.

[square leg]

In Europe the trend these days is to move away from giving a load of instructions in one RT call.

They are increasingly giving one instruction at a time. In fact that is what they are being trained to do. As mikemal says it is safer and prone to less mistakes. This is well researched stuff.

Safe flying and "ATC-ing"

[126,7]

In the hot seat
Have to disagree with you about spoories crew. They might be a bit cocky in SA, but thats because its their home-turf. All crews act a little cocky when they fly into or out of their home base.
Lotta good guys at spoories with the occasional pr1ck, but its like that at every company!! Even at ATNS believe it or not!


square leg
True about the european ATC instructions.

ATC: Descend to bla bla
Pilot: Readback
ATC: Turn left/right heading bla bla
Pilot: Readback
ATC: Contact next freq
Pilot: Readback

Seems a bit tedious and long winded, but safe. Especially with most crews in Europe not having english as their mother tongue and neither do the majority of controllers.

[In the hot seat]

If only we had enough sectors to divide the all the traffic into. Then we could even give instructions one word at a time. But, alas, unlike everywhere else in the civilised world we have to do deps, arrivals, final app, satellite airfields, surveys and :mad: parajumps on main routes ALL ON ONE FREQUENCY!!!!!!! Just remember that.

As for the foreigners being better ... I'm speechless. Those Danes sucked (except for 1).

Yep, SA ATC's are really crap. That's why we get grabbed by other providers as soon as they can lay their hands on us:ok:

Bear in mind that my comments are generalisations guys. The bigger picture. I suspect that the Spoories okes who frequent this website are the exceptions. It's always the crap ones that never get the message.

Nationwide? I have no idea whether they do or don't give us rebates. I know the Bloem Area okes get jump seat rides with Comair and BA gives us excellent deals to London. That's about all I think. Air Botswana (who rock) don't give us squat.

RT procedures aren't everything, I know, but they reflect the broader professionalism of the crew. And, like it or not, SAA does not score high on the points list here (generally).

Don't shoot the messenger. It is what it is ...

[126,7]

Dont think SA ATCs are crap, but they do lack recurrent training and exposure to how things are done elsewhere. If you only ever work at one place and not see how things are done elsewhere, as in overseas, then you cant grow, cant pick up tips and tricks from the other guys and see that there are more ways than one to skin the cat!

As far as the foreigners are concerned: Heard they had some very young Danes in SA and that these guys weren't really worth a fraction of the money ATNS sent to Denmark in the form of lease payments! Apparently everyone was happy to see them go...

The scene in SA is bound to get worse. Heard that they're not taking any of the white okes who have gone overseas back. Affirmative action raising its ugly head again......

[fluffyfan]

Hot seat......Not going to argue with you about SAA radio proceedures, there are 850 odd pilots at SAA and some are bound to have bad habits, just must say, that we are constantly getting reminders from our training guys that we must be as professional as possible. Funny enough you are the not the first one I have heard say this about SAA, some of my mates in Other Airline like to call us Say Again Airlines...much to there amusement ............I am not convinced such a title is waranted, I am on the various frequecies every day and I think SAA is generally pretty good, yes there are exceptions, but we also have twice the number of everyone else in the air, maybe you are just focusing on the bad ones like we all tend to do. My pet hate is when you give a squawk code and the aircraft reading back says squawk 1234.....COMING DOWN.

If you want to hear bad radio proceedures, try the States, every second word is slang. By the way, dont actually think you guys are crap, was just annoyed at the amount of SAA bashing going on in this forum, I know you guys work hard and have the same worries as all of us in this game.

[Bravo Echo November]

Just think it is very important to readback certain detail eg."

ATC " Descend to FL 250"
Pilot " Descend 250"

I think this could be interpreted in two ways- the one pilot might descend to FL250 and the other to FL50.

Maybe I am being a bit too pedantic?

[126,7]

BEN
Thats why ICAO says:
"Descend TO flight level 250"
That leaves no room for error, unless someone misses a readback!!
If everyone sticks to the same procedures, we will all be ok. No need to be pedantic, just be professional!


Edited for spelling.....