Flying Ladies

[NIGINOO]

As female pilots have to contend with a 28 day changing cycle in there physical and mental make up, does this change their sense of reasoning whilst they are flying during such periods. (no pun intended) The question is based on studying the reactions of lady car drivers during such periods, when I have witnessed the normally demure layed back type turn into a snarling cat, combined with a hint of sheer bloody stupidity.

[Whirlygig]

OK, I'll be the first brave enough to have a go at answering this:-

YES and NO.

I did my PPL full-time. At four days, I was under a very high workload; everything was new, I had a lot to learn, it was going badly, I couldn't hover the bloody thing to save my life. It was that time. I decided I needed clear my head so I went out on my motorbike for a ride. I dropped it. In 20 years of riding a motorbike, I had never dropped it. Until then. I went back to my aircraft, even more stressed as I had the ignominy of having some bloke pick up said bike for me and I was on the verge of tears.

I didn't let my instructor see me in that state so I left. However, he probably knows about it now!! :O

BUT

Now, it's not a problem. I think it only matters when other stress levels are high. I do know of a woman airline pilot who manages to gets rostered in a particular pattern to avoid this.

It's different for all women and it is this that men must realize and it can be different for the same woman at different times. But it always a consideration when I go flying as sometimes the feeling of having your innards ripped away can be a bit much! And the backache. And the headache. And the increased body temperture. And the overflowing oestrogen. And the....er... bladder issues. But, other than that, hey, it's a breeze ;)

Cheers

Whirlygig

[Ian Corrigible]

It’s really comes down to good CRM. As a considerate crewmember (with a basic sense of self-preservation) working alongside members of the fairer sex, you’ll soon come to know when’s a good time to hold off on the banter…

http://www.turboshaft.com/db2/00189/turboshaft.com/_uimages/Nottonightdarling.jpg

:E

I/C

[Whirlybird]

It's different for all women and it is this that men must realize and it can be different for the same woman at different times.

Well said, Whirlygig, and not said often enough. :ok: I have honestly never had a problem with it. Or, at any rate, less of a problem than with the normal ups and downs of life that can make you feel better some days than others, and can easily be ignored. I know I'm fairly lucky in this respect, but I also know I'm very, very far from unique.

[Flytest]

Thats why Lass's should stick to making babies and doing the ironing...



:p

[sandy helmet]

Do you know why they call PMS, PMS?

Mad cow disease was already taken!!

;) ;) ;)

[B Sousa]

Ian
Great Picture. The Lady there just has that look in her eyes as if to say. "Dont Piss me off"

[Whirlybird]

Here we go again. Is there a smilie somewhere for an extremely large yawn?

[Whirlygig]

I know Whirlybird - you didn't seriously expect anything else from these guys did you?

We try to answer a serious question as helpfully as we can and hey....

I'm just waiting for my good friend Thomas Coupling to stick his oar in ;) sorry, regale us with his words of wisdom!!

Don't worry - I have dealt with Flytest in private!

Cheers

Whirlygig

[Pat Malone]

"...I have witnessed the normally demure layed back type turn into a snarling cat, combined with a hint of sheer bloody stupidity..."

So for a couple of days each month women behave like men.

[NickLappos]

Having trained my share of men and women, I can assure you there is little emotional difference. I trained a male group from a very macho country and found the blend of testosterone and ego was as emotional a mix as the cockpit could stand. Even the gentlest correction was seen as a slight upon the trainee's manhood, so virtually all cockpit communications were tailored to keep commo open. I had one fellow lose control in an emotional snit while in a 42,000 lb helo at 150 knots, and another pair got in a pushing contest while on a training hop. It was a horrendous experience, but I don't see us ever comment on this type of male problem.

A simple example: one student got a bit slow on a single engine running landing, so I gently said, "Very good! Perhaps next time, you could try to be about five knots faster?"
To this obvious slur on his manhood, the trainee replied, "But I WAS five knots faster!"

It seems to me that humans have emotions and hormones, and we must learn to deal with that, regardless of the gender of the human.

[Whirlybird]

I know Whirlybird - you didn't seriously expect anything else from these guys did you?

No, Whirlygig, but I live in hope. :(

Right, since this thread is clearly about to go the way of all other threads which dare to mention that some of us on this forum are female, let me save you all the time and summarise the next few posts for you....

1) Someone else, not having read Flytest's post because he had a kneejerk reaction to a title like "Flying Ladies", says that women should stay in the kitchen.
2) Some wag says that if women were meant to fly the sky would be pink.
3) Some idiot dredges up some old and suspect research that suggests women might be different from men, and deduces from this that they shouldn't be flying.
4) A well meaning soul says he's flown with lots of women, and they were really good pilots, honestly, some of them were even better than some of the men!
5) Someone says he once knew a woman pilot, just one, a very long time ago. And one day she burst into tears, and this obviously proves that she was a Bad Pilot, and therefore that all women are Bad Pilots.
6) Someone says very reasonably that gender makes no difference, that we use hands and feet and heads to fly, not certain other appendages...this person is completely and utterly and studiously ignored by everyone for the rest of the thread.
7) Someone says that he wouldn't want to be married to a woman pilot becasue he wants someone at home to do the ironing and take care of his kids. He then deduces from this, with utterly faultless logic, that therefore no other women should fly.
8) Someone else who doesn't read what went before points out that the sky isn't pink so women shouldn't be pilots...of course he's firmly convinced he's the first person in the whole world ever to say it.
9) Someone says that with the shortage of jobs in aviation, women shouldn't be taking them. He's been out of work for ages, and it's not fair; it couldn't be due to the fact he keeps trashing helicopters and yelling at colleagues and getting pissed, now could it? No definitely not, a woman took HIS job.
10) A new poster expresses amazement at the amount of sexism exhibited in this day and age. He is mystified. He too, is completely and utterly ignored.

And where are Whirlybird and Whirlygig? Out flying, or in the pub; they have more sense than to argue with this lot.

Right, now that's all settled, isn't it? Everybody happy?

[Blind]

Well said, you forgot one thing only.

Some one will always think he's the first person in the world to crack a joke about cock pits and box offices!

And sometimes the sky IS PINK!!!!!!!

Blind

[2Sticks]

I say 'hats off to the ladies' here for there initial sensible answers, when, I for one, was expecting a bit of a back lash to the possible perceived impertinance of asking the question. But, having been mistaken, I found the replies interesting.

Good comment from Nick regarding the 'macho' element.

Most of my training was carried out by a female instructor who was absolutely brilliant - balanced, no macho issues and good fun. It's a question of knowing your limitations and being prepared to act responsibly. I remember when setting up my own business a few years ago giving up fixed wing flying since, although affording it was becoming a huge problem, the stress and preoccupation with my own thoughts meant it was safer to stop doing it.

Thankfully the business succeeded and now I can fly what I've always wanted to fly - helis!

2Sticks

[Rotorbee]

Nick I think we all want to hear more.

I had my share of macho pilots. One instructor almost killed me while showing off. Fortunately for me, he was not able to do what he claimed, that saved us from slinging a load in to the trees.
For my plank rating I had a female instructor. Thank god for that. It was pure fun - except the spin training. Ever since I have that feeling that airplanes are inheretly dangerous.

[spinwing]

...TOUCHE ! ;) :ok:

[NickLappos]

Now Anne, if operations could use Match.com to arrange mutually agreeable flight schedules to take advantage of those three days, RON's would be much more enjoyable. Let's patent the software! ;)

[Whirlybird]

Nice one, Anne. :ok: :) ;)

[Vfrpilotpb]

As old as Methuzeller or whatever his name was, what you are talking about is really a state of mind at any particular moment in the life of man.

Its like this at my house, a love hate thing really, or mind over matter, Mrs Vfr dosn't mind, and I don't matter, one word of caution from me,... and she does what she wants.

Real men know when to do as they are told!:ouch: :{

Vfr:ugh:

[NIGINOO]

Right you chaps! By use of this cunningly phrased question ive got the girls to give you the information that matters. Ive even got it down to the three days that offer the best chance for a conquest. Now then, if the ladies that replied, have the looks to go along with there obviously brilliant minds oooooohhhhhh.

[Gomer Pylot]

Real men know when to do as they are told! And you may as well do it sooner rather than later, because you're going to do it eventually, anyway. As the old saw goes, I always get the last word in any argument. "Yes, dear!"

[Double Echo]

Whirly girls

I know Flytest very well.. I also know he has a particular habit of bedding female pilots.

In his words "If they are in my bed, they are out of the sky"

:rolleyes:

[Whirlygig]

Well now, Double Echo, it appears as if you have 3 days every 28-30 in which to get lucky with any female (pilot or otherwise) and 3 days in which you risk getting your head bitten off.

Do you know, I can't remember where I am in my cycle, is it the second week or the third? In the all the excitement, I appear to have forgotten so tell me, are you feeling lucky punk?

NIGINOO - modesty forbids me to say whether my looks match my brains (unlikely actually as I am very, very clever) but I think I am prettier than most pilots (and certainly smell a lot nicer ;))

Cheers

Whirlygig

[rotaryman]

Whats the Difference between a Rottweiler and a woman with Pmt ??

You can make friends with a Rottweiler LOL:)



o.k i'm leaving..
:ok:

[Blind]

Hmmm I've just done some sums. The gentleman that kindly started this topic hinted that us ladies are a bit poorly for a few days a month. Shall we call a few three? Well I've flown AS332l's on the North Sea for 4 years without being sick. So thats 3 days a month I'm owed........36 days a year........let's call that a month.


So am I due 4 months off for untaken PMT leave?


HUZZAHHHHHHH


Blind:O

[ShyTorque]

Every month I tell people I suffer from headaches and stomach cramps. I become very clumsy and forgetful and I tend to drop things a lot. I also get very grumpy and tired. I know I'm being aggressive and rude, but I tell people "It's just me hormones so I can't help it".

As a strong believer in equal rights I just do it on purpose as I'm definitely NOT female....... :E

[Whirlybird]

Hmmm, I think the last time I had time off work for sickness was when I had flu in....I think it was 1997!!!!!!!! How many days off am I owed? I think I'll go on a world tour.

One thing Whirlygig didn't mention was that not all women have regular menstrual cycles. I'm not talking about a couple of days different either...how about anything from 21 to 35 days????!!!! OK, now try and work out when you're going to get lucky. ;)

[Whirlygig]

ShyT,

I'm so glad you believe in equal rights. How about, once a month, I kick you in the gonads and then you can genuinely suffer the pain! Just one of the many helpful services I can offer!!

Cheers

Whirlygig

[ShyTorque]

Whirlygig,

Thanks for the kind offer but I have suffered quite enough pain already as I have been married for nearly thirty years.

(Wouldn't want Mrs. S getting jealous, that's her job ;) )

[rotaryman]

Thanks for the kind offer but I have suffered quite enough pain already as I have been married for nearly thirty years.

Jesus mate! you only get 10 years for Murder!! just think you would be out by now! LOL:)

:ok: :ok: :ok: Remember! can't live with em! Can't shoot em....:E

[carholme]

I have worked as an engineer (mechanic) on helicopters and fixed wing for almost 40 years and recently my partner and I bought a Beech 18 floatplane for summer operations in Canada. My partner is an ATP/IFR fixed wing with over 1000 hours on the Beech floats, over 3000 hours floats, 7000 hours total, as well she has her commercial rotary. She is without a doubt, the most meticulous pilot I have ever worked with and her care of the aircraft is second to none. She will outwork most of the people I have worked with, including me.
I have never at any time even thought of her monthly cycle with regard to her as a woman/pilot/worker. She is just good at what she does and is a real asset in our operation. I'm sure having to put up with me causes her more aggro than she needs.
Even in aviation, I'm surprized the subject came up at all. In 1967, when I obtained my PPL/CPL, I was trained by a lady pilot who was a ferry pilot during the war and I have never forgot what an exceptional person/pilot she was.

Regards
carholme

[bugdevheli]

For Gods sake, are you men or bloody mice. Women were put on this earth for one thing only. They were not designed to be police constables, navvies, bus drivers,managers,refuse collectors, driving or flying instructors, wrestlers, boxers,or for that matter have any job that a man would normally do. No, they were put here in the first place to please men. the situation has been changed by men who make these silly statements ie, she knows whos the boss etc. Keep them in there place I say. Underneath you whenever possible.

[NickLappos]

bug,
I hope you are wearing rubber soled shoes, because God has read your post, and She is mighty angry!

[Thomas coupling]

Whirlygig, you've hurt my feelings now! I'm gutted that you could possibly think I had anything but praise for the fairer sex.
I think the least you could do to make amends is to give me your mobile number so that we could discuss this further...........
trust me, I'm a pilot :E

I remember a harrier pilot chatting a hostie up at an airdisplay we were in, in Jersey some years back.
He'd been eyeing her up for ages and eventually after a few beers, walked through the crowded room up to the crowded bar pushing lesser mortals aside, until he was next to her.
In a loud, deep voice (trying to speak above the noisy room) he looked her straight in the eyes and said:
"How do you fancy your eggs in the morning sweetheart"?

And she responded with:

"Not fertilised by you thanks sunshine"

and carried on chatting to the barman :ok:

[SASless]

I wonder if the ladies ever considered the sheer anguish we men go through.....they just do not seem to give a second thought to the Pain of Conception we must endure. There just isn't any justice since we gave them the vote.....since then it has been down hill all the way.

;)

[Corr]

Girls
Just use the standard retort...why should I lower myself to be equal ??!!

[Whirlygig]

TC,

Glad you're back - did you have a good Christmas? Now, I know you're not really hurt because you have ever such broad shoulders ;) If I can take the flak, so can you!! Trust me, I'm a pilot :ok:

SASLess - this must be similar to the pre-menstrual tension that many women go through each month. "Am I pregnant? Am I pregnant? Phew! No. Thank God!"

Cheers

Whirlygig

[ShyTorque]

"this must be similar to the pre-menstrual tension that many women go through each month. "Am I pregnant? Am I pregnant? Phew! No. Thank God!"

Now there's a coincidence! That's exactly what many men go through, too. "Is she pregnant? Phew, no, Thank God!"

[Rwy in Sight]

Funny thing that this thread appeared just now. I had a conversation with a lady some two days ago.

She is not a pilot but she stated that women make less good pilots because during their period they tend to be very short-tempred or getting angry much more easily. Obviously her not being a pilot her argument does not hold a lot ot water but nervertheless it does show something...

I believe that often PMS or dysmynoria are merely excuses, and a woman that is happy about herself doesn't really suffer.


Any comments from the ladies
Rwy in Sight

[Whirlygig]

Any comments from the ladies
Whaddya think I've been doing for the last three pages?

she stated that women make less good pilots because during their period they tend to be very short-tempred or getting angry much more easily
Oh pur-leeze. IF (and I mean IF) this comment really did come from a woman she must be very, very young. Women who come out with crap like that are doing the rest of us (herself included) no favours whatsoever. SHE might not make a good pilot because SHE gets short-tempered but, as I have said oft enough, it can affect women in different ways and affect the women diferently at different times especially as you get older (ahem).

I have my own personal considerations to make at particular times (I'm getting coy in my old age) but, I can promise all you blokes, getting short-tempered is not one of them.

I believe that often PMS or dysmynoria are merely excuses
Oh no they are not. If a woman suffers from these, it ain't fecking funny and it has nothing to do with how happy they are with themselves but a hormone imbalance.

Now, I am normally pretty laid back and rarely rise to the bait but Rwy, this post takes the biscuit. Comments such as those from Bugdevheli are simply treated with the contempt they deserve and are so predicatable, it's sad. But your post, recounting what a female friend has said just makes me want to groan inwardly.

[SASless]

All this begs the question.....What is the difference between a Terrorist and a woman with PMS?


One can negotiate with a Terrorist!;)


Running for cover......

[Vfrpilotpb]

Do any of you guy know the average size of the female Feet?:E

[Whirlybird]

She is not a pilot but she stated that women make less good pilots because during their period they tend to be very short-tempred or getting angry much more easily. Obviously her not being a pilot her argument does not hold a lot ot water but nervertheless it does show something...

My neighbour thinks that the moon is made of green cheese. This does show something...


I believe that often PMS or dysmynoria are merely excuses, and a woman that is happy about herself doesn't really suffer.

Feel free to believe what you like, including that the earth is flat or helicopters fall like a stone when the engine fails. Don't let facts stop you.

[rotaryman]

Whirlybird:

when the engine fails.

Should that not read!

In the unlikely event the Engine fails,,,,:ok: :E

[Flytest]

Whirlygig,

you still ranting about pms?? I'd say you are getting to the end of your cycle missus!!!:p

As for your comments about looking better than most pilots.. ok I'll give you that one (Don't worry I'm not going soft, just being fair)

I have to say, I was onboard BA's first ever "All Girl crew" flight, and I was sat with a mate of mine who was one of BA's engineering management.. we both really wanted it to be a rough flight, I had my "Excuse me miss, did we land or were we shot down??" quip at the ready.. unfortunately, it was great, no problems at all, nor have ever experienced any unpleasant flights in the hands of a girl. (No innuendo intended!!!)

Although I must mention one particular woman I used to know, who recently gained a commendation for her rescue flying skills.. great pilot, crap driver.. reversed her car into a hangar door support.. :p

Hmmm good pilot can't park cars.. who does that remind me of??? I wonder......:E

[J.A.F.O.]

I am stunned by the number of six year olds who have pilot's licences.

[spinwing]

Well this started out being an interesting thread .... pity 'bout the miss guided (pls excuse the Pun!) goading by some of the contributers ... enough enough !!!

:yuk: :yuk: :bored:

[Blind]

Vfrpilotpb asked "Do any of you guy know the average size of the female Feet?"

I believe the answer is very small so they can get closer to the sink/ironing board/oven etc. Ho Ho Ho what a funny joke for a 12 year old to tell. It still amazes me that that aren't any new funny jokes about women, it would make me laugh if I heard a new one.

Regarding parking, I've said it before on PPrune.....I can't parallel park, that's why I fly helicopters, they can go sideways.

Blind

Why Women Are Best

A woman was out golfing one day when she hit her ball into the woods. She went into the woods to look for it and found a frog in a trap.

The frog said to her, "If you release me from this trap, I will grant you three wishes."
The woman freed the frog and then the frog said, "Thank you, but I failed to mention that there was a condition to your wishes. Whatever you wish for, your husband will get ten times more or better!"
The woman said, "That would be okay."

For her first wish, she wanted to be the most beautiful woman in the world. The frog warned her, "You do realize that this wish will also make your husband the most handsome man in the world, an Adonis, that women will flock to.
"The woman replied, "That will be okay because I will be the most beautiful woman and he will only have eyes for me."

So, KAZAM-she\'s the most beautiful woman in the world.
For her second wish, she wanted to be the richest woman in the world.
The frog said, "That will make your husband the richest man in the
world, and he will be ten times richer than you."
The woman said, "That will be okay because what\'s mine is his and what\'s his is mine."

So, KAZAM-she\'s the richest woman in the world!
The frog then inquired about her third wish and she answered, "I\'d like a mild heart attack."

Women are clever bitches. Don\'t mess with them.

[Rwy in Sight]

Whirlygig

Please check your PM.

Whirlybird

I explained she is not a pilot. I just reported what she said. SHe is an English teacher and for operational reasons I don't have too much contact with her (thanks god)... If I had my way I would have introduce her to the PPRuNe and she would understand what makes a good pilot.

Even worst my meeting with her does not turn well in general


Anyway I shall not post in the PPRuNe when I am in a hurry....

I will close the door on the way out


Rwy in Sight :O


PS
I know that helicopters don't crash when an engine quites.. The terms autogyration and ungliness pushes them away ring a bell...

[newcastlepilot]

Whirlybird, what a superb post on page 1! Girls, as a new ppruner I ask, what are your opinions on the variation of men's attitudes towards women crew around the uk and europe?

To some extent it is "grim up north" in regard to the male chauvinism we encounter on a day to day basis. However, most of us (that want to get on) just laugh it off - its just a refreshing change to experience the european male from time to time - are they really treating us a equals in the cockpit or am I just being drawn in by their charm. Is the prejudice that geordie man shoves in our face, still there but just concealed? I have my opinions what are yours? Come on you guys aswell!

[Blind]

I don't really think you can predict how men react to women pilots based on how far from the equator they live but the more people whinge about it and go on about it the worse it will get. It's going to get to the stage where people start to get paranoid about it.

Get over the who sex thing. People judge you very quickly on a number of things. Stop putting all people into groups and judge those you meet in the same way that you want them to judge you.

I am getting soooooooooo bl**dy bored of all these female pilot threads I am beginning to wish women weren't allowed in the cockpit

Blind

[SASless]

Except for a few redeeming qualities...there most likely would be a bounty on them!;)

[Whirlybird]

newcastlepilot,

Glad you liked my post. :ok: As you can see, it's done no good whatsoever; we're now on page 4, and although no-one has yet referred to pink skies or cock-pits, they've covered pretty much everything else I mentioned. :(

I'm not sure about different areas/countries having more or less prejudice. I do know a couple of women who flew themselves to Corsica, and no-one could actually do any paperwork or let them leave for a while, because they wanted to know where the pilot was; they were convinced two women couldn't possibly have flown themselves across Europe!!!! But I'd hate to generalise from one incident.

Blind,

I too am heartily sick of women pilot threads. I can't believe it's even worthy of comment - in 2005, 94 years after the first woman got a pilot's licence, 60 years after the end of the 2nd Worl War when the women ATA pilots flew all types of aircraft all over the country, and 30 years after the Sex Discrimination Act came into being. But things take a long time to change.

As to not whinging about it, up to a point you're right. OTOH, pretending prejudice isn't there won't make it go away...ostriches can be seen. And, personally, I've stopped altering my behaviour to suit what people want or to create an impression...I don't care if it gets better or worse; I'll be me, do what I want, whinge if I feel like it, ignore it if that suits me,and to hell with the lot of them. Why shouldn't I? Why should I have to mind my ps and qs becasue I'm female? That attitude doesn't make me popular with either men or women, I know, but I'm past caring about that either. Maybe I've just been around this sort of thing too long. :(

[Blind]

Maybe it's mainly because I've been fortunate enough to work with a approximately 80 pilots and have only ever had one colleague who couldn't deal with women. Part of me feels that there isn't really a problem so these threads are a fuss about a problem that doesn't exist!?!

Anyway Happy flying to all and sundry.

Blind.

[IHL]

I have flown with 1/2 a dozen +, women pilots in my career. I have never been able to tell which phase of the moon or cycle they were in by there performance/attitude/mood.

I am not known for being sensitive, but I will say that the male pilots I have flown with seem to be alot more sensitive to critsism than the female pilots.


There are excellent, good, fair, poor, and bad woman pilots just as there are excellent, good, fair, poor, and bad male pilots.Period

[SASless]

A while back...an EMS pilot in New Zealand had a CFIT event and the outcry by the knuckle draggers of our population went on forever it seemed.

I said it then....and say it again...that Lady is welcome at my end of the bar anytime. Anyone that thinks there is a bit of difference between performance between the sexes when it comes to flying needs some sensitivity training.

We are all different...(viva la difference in some cases) and we cannot paint everyone with the same brush.

Whirly Girls....does that make up for my rude comments from above?

[Thomas coupling]

Sasless....interesting comments about that NZ incident.
You conveniently forgot to mention how she came to utilise her exceptional skills....

She flew down a valley at night not knowing exactly where she was????????? And hit trees???

Not saying a bloke wouldnt do the same....but dont let the truth stand in the way of a good story eh?

[Hughesy]

Come on guys/girls, things getting a tad heated dont ya think.

TC, the pilot in question knew where she was, she was following a GPS track to pick up a patient, and because she was a single pilot in night VFR, with an obviously high workload, she missed a way point, and was faced with rising terrain. The unfortunate pilot and crew did hit terrain, but with a broken hand, and numerous other injuries, she managed to hover for over an hour while the fire crews cut the other skid off, so she could make a flat as possible landing a bed of tyres.

Yes, she was unfortunate, and we all make mistake, we are of course Human, but she did extremely well to make the best of that situation.

Hughesy

[SASless]

TC,

As I said back when that happened....she was out there walking the walk....and what happened to her could have happened to anyone of us. It gets mighty dark in some of the places we fly and when you throw in the hard bits things happen. The way she handled the event is what sold me on her piloting skills....when it all went pear shaped....she did good. There is not one of us who can honestly say we have not dropped a clanger and except for some divine intervention....could have had as ugly a thing or worse happen to us.

I missed an unlit mast one night by what seemed like inches....and it was not anything I did or did not do that prevented me from scoring a direct hit on the thing. I was just luckier than she was.

Pointing the finger is nice...but remember...it could be you sitting there wondering what happened one night. The folks in Washington in the 412 prove my point. It can happen to anyone at anytime....just pray it isn't your turn next.

[ariel]

Just been reading this rather long thread with interest.

Have to say, Double Echo, if Flytest beds female pilots because, in his words, "if they are in my bed, they are out of the sky"

Well.... SO IS HE!

Sorry......!

ariel

[the coyote]

Not long ago I was on a Qantas 747-400 and the Captain was a woman. I reckon that's great and about time too.

I dig women, always have, always will. And I admire the fact that despite all the d1ck swingers and ego's in our industry they persevere and succeed, and no doubt having to unfortunately endure more crap than us blokes ever did.

I reckon men that have a problem with them, have just that, a problem.

Attitude and ability, I checked the dictionary and I don't think its gender specific!

Go the Chicks, should be more of them in our game.:ok:

[spinwing]

... Not long ago I read with interest a story about an A10 pilot whose callsign was "KC".

Said pilot was out in the boonies of Iraq helping out a few grunts on the ground with a problem (?) ... in the process was damn near shredded by ground fire ..... did a VERY good job of flying a very badly disabled a/c back to base safely (?).

Well I'd buy that pilot a drink or three ANYTIME!

Go "Killer Chick" (Capt. Kim Campbell USAF). !!!

I don't think any of the grunts on the ground she was helping out would have told her to go back to the kitchen!!!

:ok: :ooh:

[mikesmith]

I am hoping that something terrible happens to this entire subject and string. Anyone from outside our profession reading the contents would have to seriously consider why licences are granted to people with such twisted thinking. Can we just never have a discussion like this ever again ?
It's not amusing - it's awful.

[NIGINOO]

In view of the number of people who have posted on this thread and the varied answers they have given both in favour of, and agianst women in aviation. whats the problem in discussing it. Its a fact of life. Men will always hold strong veiws about women, as equally the women do about men. To suggest any so called outsiders might find this discussion on Prune as a reason to doubt the intelligence of pilots is rediculous. This is the real world. In the real world a chap might spout off about women to other men, but when faced with a good looking lady flying instructor he is the perfect gent Yes maam, No maam Im not telling you Maam, but i admire your skills and id still like to get in your pants. Loosen up a bit Mike.

[Whirlygig]

I am hoping that something terrible happens to this entire subject and string.
....and your point is?

The original question referred to women pilots and the effect that their menstruation cycle might have on their flying.

I'm not sure which Mike Smith you are but either way, you are, or have been married so ought to have some idea of what is being got at here.

Yes, there are some crass comments on here but there are also many valid points and if you can realize some insight from any post that has been written here, then some good has been achieved.

On this thread, there has been demonstrated the distaff point of view, sexism, egalitarianism and downright-bloody-p1ss-taking! So? Why should this thread not exist? It's well known that most of the inhabitants of Rotorheads do not venture outside this forum, so why not have a bit of fun between the genders and maybe, just maybe, you might learn something!

Cheers

Whirlygig

NIGINOO - what about ugly, lady pilots???? Are we really on a hiding to nothing? Or perhaps (I'm hoping here), we are all beautiful in your eyes!



edited - just read your profile, I know which Mike Smith you are and...er...we have met!!

[NIGINOO]

Whilygig. I can tell even from the way you handle words, you are in command I think I love you!:)

[Whirlygig]

Oooo NIGINOO,

Can I go all slushy-girly now?? Or will I burst my bubble?

[NIGINOO]

Having gone all slushy on me is just how i------------- o bugger the wifes just looked over my shoulder and read this. Gotta go, I remain your ever obedient servant maam. Ni Night.

[Thomas coupling]

SASless: you silly old sod...don't you get it:
the PILOT that night did a fantastic job fighting that helo and bringing it home. What i was trying to drive home was that its got absolutley NOTHING to do with the fact that the pilot was a bloody female :ugh:

Whirlygig / niginoo, you both said it all. This whole thread is just a laugh...no-one out there who has commented, really believes that women helo drivers are any better/worse than blokey helo drivers. Those days have long gone.

[If anyone out there genuinely believes there is a difference...sorry guys, you've been left behind, the dinosaur era left ages ago.:ok: ]

This sort of 'banter' makes the world go round...provided the recipients haven't been offended, and that's where to draw the line.

Need a cup of tea now....run along whirly:ouch:

[Whirlygig]

There are excellent, good, fair, poor, and bad woman pilots just as there are excellent, good, fair, poor, and bad male pilots.Period
NOTHING to do with the fact that the pilot was a bloody female
Have you lot been to "pun" school?

Need a cup of tea now....run along whirly
Thomas, if, at this time of night, you want a cup of tea, you can make it yourself; I only do red wine or G&Ts at this hour!

On serious note, from an operational point of view, I would be interested to know about the logistics, say, of an 8-hour pipe-line job.

I don't imagine that there is anyone out there, male or female, who can last for 8 hours without a wee. So what do you do? OK, put down somewhere, squat behind the JetRanger and return to the cockpit feeling refreshed! But, at certain times, with a lady pilot (or rather a Whirlygig-type pilot), these occasions might be slightly more frequent than otherwise budgeted. Whaddya do? I've heard about fighter pilots wearing nappies but I think there is a limit - just how good is TenaLady?

I am not taking the p1ss here; I really would like to know. What about North Sea Ops?

There are differences between men and women; they don't affect piloting abilities but I know that I can just about reach to tie down the rotor blades on a JetRanger; can't do a Squirrel. I have tried and it was laughable. What can I do if I am so short I can't reach. S'pose I do what I've always done; find a strapping young man!

So guys, thanks for the support. I hope that some of the little things that matter to women pilots will become common place e.g. harnesses that will fit someone who is 5'4" but with a, shall we say thorax circumference, measurement equalling that of a BIG bloke! And flight suits that actually go IN at the waist etc.

Cheers

W

[spinwing]

Mmmmm

...dya think this thread would be considered "Internet Sex"???

.... the thought police might get us!

;) ;) :eek:

[SASless]

Whirly....

It is late at night....I have had enough Guinness to give me beer goggles....and at risk of incurring the wrath of Heliport.....somehow the image of a 5'4" slip of a thing looking for a strapping lad....well uh....can just see Whirly...coyly asking said Big Strapper...."want to tie me up young man?"

The fairer sex is at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to emergency dumps of excess tea....guess we can see the wisdom of skirts in that regard....however that being said....my advice to lady bush pilots...(oh that is getting too close to dangerous ground)...is to "watch out for the nettles!"

The key here one must assume is a gentleman knows when to avert his eyes.....and all gathered herein know that helicopter pilots are indeed that to a fault. Honest...really....no fooling!

[Whirlybird]

Anyone from outside our profession reading the contents would have to seriously consider why licences are granted to people with such twisted thinking. Can we just never have a discussion like this ever again ?
It's not amusing - it's awful.

I'm inclined to agree. Although I can see where Whirlygig, TC etc are coming from, and I check this thread at frequent intervals and post on it...far too much, in reality some of it is pretty horrendous. There is a difference between banter and genuine prejudice, and while TC might like to think the second no longer exists, it does, and most women can tell the difference. And I groan every time I see yet another thread on women pilots on PPRuNe - it's the same old stuff, and serious or otherwise, I can't really believe it's still around.

Yes, the original question on menstrual cycles was...possibly interesting. Where it's going now - where to pee - I know interests many people. When I walked round the coast of Britain that's what people wanted to know - where did I pee? :confused: Polly Vacher, in telling of crossing the Pacific on her round-the-world flight, brings the house down with her descriptions of trying to take off immersion suit, etc etc etc in mid-ocean. I don't get it, personally. In a helicopter, you land, and pee. And if someone wants to look - well, be my guest. I suppose it comes of a misspent youth travelling in countries where loos didn't exist, and if you wanted to answer the call of nature on a long bus journey across the desert, the driver stopped the bus and...well, there are no bushes in the desert. So I don't give a damn.

Anyway, Mike, I'm curious as to which Mike Smith you are...since all obvious details have been removed from your profile. But I suspect I know you. ;)

[MightyGem]

Go "Killer Chick" (Capt. Kim Campbell USAF). !!!
Killer Chick's story HERE (http://www.warbirdforum.com/chick2.htm)

[teeteringhead]

that's what people wanted to know - where did I pee? .. and I understand that was very similar to one of King Geroge V's first questions to Lindbergh when he met him!
In a helicopter, you land, and pee. ..which is one thing that impressed me early in my rotary career. Flying in a Sioux from Ternhill in Shropshire to Valley in Anglesey against a headwind was taking forever - being overtaken by cars on the A5!

Instructor calls "I have control", lands in nearby field, gives me back control and runs behind nearest bush! Clearly I am going to feel at home in this world thought the young teetringhead..

Sorry for going off subject.

[moosp]

Maybe I missed it. In all the posts to this interesting thread, one question I would like to raise.

Where ARE all the women in Helicopter Aviation? What is it about the machine that seems to keep them away? If you are a commercial organisation and about 49% of your target market are un-interested, what are we doing wrong?

A few guesses.

1) Science is still taught as a boy thing at school.

2) Helicopter schools are usually in a small hut or a rugged hangar on the side of a wind blown field. Women's alternative of the golf club with its opulence and style is temptingly attractive.

3) Helicopters are (by daily social standards) noisy. Women are more sensitive to the discomfort of mechanical noise than men. For instance the sound of a passing Huey at full chat might well feel good to most men pilots, but to an average woman outside of aviation it is simply unpleasant noise.

4) Helicopter flying is one of the most tricky motor skills that you have to learn in the world of recreational activities, which might lead to a commercial future. My experience is that women self- select away from such activities thinking that they would not be good at it. They arrive with the baggage of a biased education.

5) There is still a perceived risk or danger to flying. This is also seen in ab initio training of fixed wing pilots where women are seen to avoid sport aviation. Few women are risk tolerant to the myths of this perception and so pursue recreation that is apparently (though not necessarily) safer.

6) The frequent exposure to testosterone overdose when the flying is over for the day. Of the many club and hotel bars that I have visited over the years with helicopter and fixed wing pilots, the company has been wonderful, but the ambience for a woman has varied from boring to threatening.

Any other ideas? As old Mao said, women hold up half the sky, but we cannot seem to interest them into beating it into submission...

[Whirlygig]

Moosp,

This will, I know, be controversial but I believe the reason that there are not many women aviators is that the majority of women are just not interested in it! Not necessarily any of your points 1 to 6 (although they might not help) but most women I know cannot understand why I would even want to fly, let alone fly a helicopter. Many can't understand why I ride a motorbike, drive a truck or play around with a Sunbeam Alpine.

I have had conversations along the lines of "You spend HOW MUCH per hour? You could buy a pair of Jimmy Choos for that!" Different priorities, definitely.

Most men I speak to envy me, most women don't understand! Personally, I have had more sexism from women than men not just in aviation but also my in respect of my degree (physics) and current career (accountancy). Most revolves around the "why haven't you got children" issue - apparently I am supposed to be unfulfilled and incomplete until I do have them!

However, for a lot of women, children are their top priority, if not only priority.

This may not go far in explaining Moosp's question; asking female pilots on here would not give true answers - maybe you should be asking women who are not pilots, why not? But, this is what I have found in my experience.

Cheers

Whirlygig

[Whirlybird]

moosp,

For a start, it's not just rotary aviation. 6% of PPLs are female, and 2% of commercial pilots. I believe the percentages are approximately the same for rotary aviation as for f/w. The same figures occur in other countries, and it's about the same percentage as it was many years ago.

So, why? Many people ask, I've read articles on the subject, but there are no clear answers. My 17 year old, female, flying-mad neighbour, training to be an ATC instructor and wanting to join the RAF, said to me, when asked about this: "It's just not a girlie thing, is it?" This proves nothing, except that the younger generation aren't changing - except she can join the RAF as a pilot and I couldn't have done. :(

But I digress. As an instructor, I talk to lots of young men hoping to take up flying helicopters...I do virtually all the trial lessons at the school I work for. Every time, I say to their wives, girlfriends, mothers, sisters etc: "Have you ever thought of giving it a go?". "Oh, I couldn't do it", is what most of them say. Not "I wouldn't want to", or "It's too dangerous" or "I don't have the time" but "I couldn't". I tend to point out that I did it, somewhat late in life (which gets over the "too old" excuses), and that I'm a fairly ordinary average woman, not a Superwoman...being 5ft 2ins helps; I just don't look like a Superwoman. But it doesn't work. Somehow, it's ingrained in their heads that they aren't clever enough or co-ordinated enough or something. :(

Now, it's wellknown that women tend to be underconfident generally. The reasons for this are probably social/environmental - women somehow pick up, along with mother's milk and kindergarten, that they're not supposed to be good at lots of things. And I think this is at the root of it. Yes, some of them aren't interested, as Whirlygig said. The social scene is a nightmare - I long ago just stopped going to most rotary social activities, to be honest. It's perceived as - and is - dangerous, but women ride horses, and they're more dangerous than helicopters; ask any insurance company. We may fly from wind-blown fields, but stables aren't particularly comfortable places...and dirtier and smellier than hangars.

moosp, I reckon you had it on the nail with the "biased education", from the word go, and that everything else stems from that. How did I avoid it? I didn't, completely. Every criticism knocks my confidence. Every so often I look at a helicopter and can't believe I can really fly it. Whatever I do, somewhere, deep down, I think I'll never really be any good. But I've always tended to do my own thing and not take any notice of what's the done thing, and maybe that's why I wanted to fly helicopters, so I do, and to hell with the other stuff.

Now, to take this thread even further in a more interesting direction, what can I do to convince these women - who tell me I'm wonderful but don't realise they're no different from me - that they too CAN do it?

[broadreach]

80-90% of men don't feel threatened, can accept and welcome the variety of working with and competing against women. These men will ignore threads like this one which go absolutely nowhere.

10-20% of men will feel threatened - or see a good vehicle to revamp off that joke they heard last week - and will respond to a post with something derogatory, whether they believe it or not. The important thing is that it should be funny in their own minds.

10-20% of women will rise to the bait right from the start and when that 10-20% of men respond, will redouble their efforts to convince that 10-20% of men.

WhirlyG and WhirlyB, why in heaven's name do you bother?

[NIGINOO]

Broadreach. They bothered for probably the same reason that you have posted. They have put foreward many explanations as to the way women think and react to the male of the species. They stood up to the verbal barracking from some and gave some back.Let yourself go and give us you ten cents worth.

[Whirlygig]

It's a funny thing and Whirlybird and I have had our discussions on this before; in my experience, I haven't had women say to me "Oh, I couldn't" BUT, Why on earth would I want to!".

There is, (sorry, W) a small age thing here although if I had joined the RAF at 18, I probably would not have been able to fly helicopters. The woman pilot in the RAF who first flew transport aircraft did so when I was about 25.

There was, in the past, a certain amount of nuture and structure in society holding women back but I really do think that this has mostly gone from schools and educational establishments. This under-confidence thing - whilst I accept that it does appear to be the case with many girls/women, I don't believe that social/environmental causes are at the root of this ANY MORE. Times really have changed and think I think there is something within women that is much more instinctive.

As was said on page 1, women don't tend to have an ego; an extension of this might appear as under-confidence.

...and, why do we bother? In an original attempt to answer a question posed by a bloke who could not know the answer any other way. There are some interesting posts on here, not least because some of the women who post here have such different views! I wonder if this is because we are all individual people with our own individual experiences?

Cheers

Whirlygig

[Whirlybird]

Whirlygig,

The women I was referring to - other halves and similar of trial lesson students - were of all ages, and some were much, much younger than either of us. It doesn't seem to be an age thing. And I'm not sure that times have changed that much as far as this is concerned, sadly. Also, I meant to say before, to say women don't want to doesn't answer anything; it just leads to the next question - why don't they want to? Is this just a basic difference in interests between men and women? It might be, but I'm not convinced. I think also women feel guilty at spending lots of money on themselves...society has conditioned them that it ought to be spent "sensibly", or on families, kids etc. So yes, they'll treat themselves to a pair of fancy shoes or a new dress, and feel happily guilty about it, but the idea of spending that much every week on having fun for no reason other than that they want to - they can't do it. Which might explain why my aunt asked me, when I started helicopter training: "How can you spend all that money; how can you bring yourself to do it" while my uncle just wondered why on earth I wanted to. OK, they're an older generation, but it happened to be them; I still don't see that things have changed much.

As to why I bother...some of this thread has been factual, and some, like this later stuff, quite interesting. I think I've ignored most of the other stuff? Haven't I? I'm too tired to go back and look; long day. :(