NationalJet Italia : no salaries this month for staff

[flyblue]

I talked to a friend working in NJI, and she told me the staff didn't get paid this month.
The official excuse is that the company is getting into the stock market. I tried very hard, but couldn't figure out one reason why the two things should be correlated.
Having had previous bad experiences, I know that this is a very grim sign.
Another piece of the italian civil aviation going down the drain?

[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: flyblue ]

[The Guvnor]

Isn't NJI the franchisee set up by BA? If that's correct, why doesn't BA stump up the dosh?? :eek: :confused: :eek:

[carlos vandango]

Because BA sold their stake. They retain just 1 share in NJI

[lets go nads]

I hope they are not going down the spout i have a few good friends there who could be out of work. :( :( :(

[Ellion]

To the guys and gals working for NJI, some advice I was given many years ago when starting out on contract flying.

Let there be two conditions only when you refuse to fly:
1. When the operation is unsafe.
2. When you haven't been paid.

Have only had to use number 2 twice and on both occasions was paid within 12 hours.

[LimaNovember]

As far as I know British World have -146s down there. Should be interesting to se what their reaction is.

[Hamrah]

British World have no aircraft with NJI.

[rover2701]

can anyone enlighten me. Was NJI set up by the same person who once owned NJS Australia. If he is having problems I have every sympathy with the employees, but it couldnt have happened to a nicer bloke. That man caused myself and a collegue no end of problems. :mad:

[The Guvnor]

Not talking about NH, by any chance, Rover2701?

[Amos]

National Jet is referred to as National Junk in Australia...and for very good reason!

Don't waste your time with this mob!

[rover2701]

1st guess incorrect. Enlighten me whos NH? :p

[SOPS]

Oh no, for my freinds there, I hope this is not true :confused: :confused: :confused:

[tech...again]

NJI still operates on British World's AOC, I believe.

[flyblue]

It IS true, I know it firsthand.

[shakespeare]

I think NJI has been sold by its founder W.S. (who also owned NJS OZ) to some ex Cathay pacific managers. They are operating BAe 146 and B737 a/c as a British Airways franchise. They were using the AOC of British World to kick off operations however are in the process of arranging their own.

The money is supposedly pretty good, however living and working in a country of highly emotional and melodramatic philanderers may not be your cup of tea!

[rover2701]

WS has bailed out in time then. To bad :mad: :mad:

[Max Profit]

Can anyone give me some info about this company and who runs it? I've heard a few things about them, I've been offered a job with them now I want to know more about them.
Whats with the Australia connection?

[Pearl Necklace]

Well well well, I'd often wondered what happened to the National Junk ringleaders!
Knew a few guys back in God's garden who got rightly stuffed by them. I can't understand how BA got into bed with them though, you'd imagine they'd be more careful who they allow fly in the colors.
Oh and Ellion rule 1 should be invoked in this case too if its anything to do with NJ Oz.

[Kaptin M]

Agreed Ellion - no pay=no fly. Several years ago, I made the mistake of allowing my employer to "skip" or only partially pay the occasional salary due. By the end of the contract period, he owed me USD26,000!! In spite of subsequent legal action, on my part (and other pilots to whom he did likewise), I have not recovered one cent of the outstanding monies.

Effectively, we received probably 30-40% less than the original agreed, contract rate - in other words, he LIED from the outset as to what our salaries would be, obviously knowing that he NEVER intended paying us at that rate. On the other hand, we fulfilled OUR obligations to the letter. and more!

DON'T give the b@st@rds an inch - tell them that YOU have (financial) obligations to fulfil and that if they don't pay you that which is currently outstanding you cannot afford to stay with them. If no joy, get LEGAL muscle into play NOW!!

Best of luck.

[Rockwell]

Perhaps the sale of NJI to the Tolmount Group for UKP35 Million may have
something to do with it. Peter Sutch ex Cathay Pacific, heads up
Tolmount so I have read.

[KADS]

Shakespeare - I'd have to admit to rather be sitting down in Italy enjoying the sun by the sea and watching beautiful women, than sitting in rainy England and be drinking tea, watching 'mad cows'. :p ;) :D

..but then again we all make our choices...

[shakespeare]

Good point KADS. Can't say I have been looking at too many mad cows lately, however if you have some spare turf on your beach towel, I would cetainly like to engage in some horizontal activity with your mediterranean friends!

[Obi Wan Kirk]

There are a few points that have always confused me about NJI:
Why would BA sign an agreement with Australians to set up an airline in Italy?
Why are they flying on British World AOC, it would have been better to get their own from the Italian CAA.
Basically NJI operate in Italy, fly British Airways colours, operate on British World AOC and are run by Australians! It all sounds a bit confusing...

[maybepilot]

Heard it's all true, ground staff haven't been paid the june salaries,F/A's and some of the pilots haven't been paid july salaries.
Apparently a couple of italian pilots already resigned and the rumor is that only the foreign pilots got paid.
Also heard strange stories about dodgy contracts at NJI.
Very surprising that BA allows this to happen.....

[Pengineer]

What about the engineers, have they been paid? I know a few guys there and despite one or two hic-ups its a good deal financially. I had heard they were having 'cash flow' problems due to this floatation.
Does anyone know any more about the floatation and on which market? Does the Oz guy still own them?

[Dodger]

Well guys
A few pointers for those considering the deal.As I have been out on the said contract I speak with a little authority.
1.NJI are as said before the rogues from down under doing it over here.
2.The contract deal changes daily depending on cash flows, nationality, and sex would you believe it.
3.It's definitely marginal on safety(thats why I left it alone!)
4.The cash is good the living is fun but thats marred by obscene conditions of service and a total disregard of FTL's
5.Engineering is good but v shorthanded.

Finally if you only have this as a job, take care and keep looking.
They play V dirty and will fire on the spot there is no insurance or any other form of come back.
I personally would'nt touch them with a barge pole and certainly their employment philosphy comes from that A---hole WS!
There you have it, "Buyer Beware!"

[SOPS]

What amazes me,( and I am sure all above posts are true), is how the hell BA ever went into a deal with these people in the first place. And if it is true that there is no money, well some advise (From an old jolly you know, to he from the northwest of oz), STOP flying now, no pay is no fly, and KAC with jets still has to pay
:eek:

[Chimbu chuckles]

For those of you wondering how this convaluted operation got off the ground remember that Wozza and Jimmy Bowtie are mates from way back.

Chuckles.

[Invalid Delete]

Dodger, most of what you say may / or may not be true but one thing that you say is not :
It's definitely marginal on safety(thats why I left it alone!)

I have been operating there for NJI and this is not the case. Did you do any work for them, or did you just go for an interview, look around the office and decide that it was an unsafe operation from inside, before you "left it well alone" ?

[calico]

i'm working for nji what i've read is all true . this is the point:
the company (ws) didn't pay our salaries (italians) we complayn a lot , two f/o quitted and than they decided to give us in advance 500 euros to complay with our needs. some one accepted it , i refuse to take it this is an insult for me . now after a lot of bad words they decided to pay us half of the wage. anyway this is not a correct behavior. is possible that a company can have problems one month , but is so easy to write a letter by the end of july stating : ok guys we are beeing floated ao we are waiting some money please be patient and everythings will be ok for the end of august, this is more polite behevior for mr WS. they didin't . :mad: :confused: :o

[flyblue]

Latest news: they promised to pay July salary on the 23rd of August.
Any bet?

[Greycloud]

I agree with Dodger,I worked at NJI last year and left for the same reasons as Dodger,quite the most amaturish bunch I have ever seen.De-ja vue on pay,the same thing happened last November no pay for EU crew but the OZ crews got paid,it was resolved when I refused to operate until my crew had been paid,faxed to my bank within 2 hours.

[Herb]

Peter Sutch (Tolmount) & Rod Eddington are big buddies from the fragrant harbour!
Eddo is of course an Ozzie......just tying up a few lose ends.

[ 22 August 2001: Message edited by: Herb ]

[maybepilot]

Heard some of the foreign pilots don't even have an EU passport and some have only validations of their non JAA licences...this situation is not only illegal from a licencing and immigration point of view but also extremely disrespectful if you consider that those who are EU citizens and have EU licences don't get paid!!!
Hope this is not where Europe is heading to....

[lostinBRU]

So, did they pay up today???

[williamsf1]

Just out of curiosity? how does an aussie fly for this company, or for that matter any in Italy or Europe sans the EU ATP? Can someone enlighten me on how this is worked out? Is it different for Italy? V's UK??

thanks for your help

[fms146]

One of the main problems with a forum like this is that people often express opinions about which they have very few facts to back them up. The good thing is that we all still have the right to express them.

I find it particularly disturbing to read such comments as "Amaturish" Let me say that I have had first hand experience with the company and was impressed with the high standard set by line trainers and check captains alike. Things are not always as well organised as we would like..thats life.

The truth is that there is no shortage of pilots lining up to join the company. Lets hope they can get over the next week or so

[Pearl Necklace]

So did they get paid or not?

Neat trick to pay only the foreigners, if you don't pay the foreigners they pack up and leave, if you don't pay the locals they usually don't pack up and leave they just wave their arms and shout a bit, but the Italians do this anyway.

[Pengineer]

Did they get paid yet?
Whose turn is it next month?

[maybepilot]

Seems not......

[ImDesheeftain Overboosta]

Is NJI connected with Our National Jet
over here in OZ?
I'd thought that they were.

[flyblue]

My friend said no news from the bank yet. Maybe just a delay in transferring money?
Suspense...

[maybepilot]

Seems like NJI has replaced those italian pilots who left with some belgians leaving the number of locals very much close to zero.
My friend said it's funny to hear the PA's on the Milan-Rome run....every english accent you may dream of apart from italian!!
Considering the fact that most italians only speak their own language i wonder what they understand...let alone an emergency.

[Jumb0lin0]

MaybePilot,

You seem to have a beef against NJI. I don't know why. I am flying with them, and having a great time. It has been interesting reading the speculations and mistruths on this post, but it is a rumour network afterall.
I do my PAs in English and Italian, and all of the Flight Attendants speak excellent English. I think your last sentence enquiring about what would happen in an emergency is a bit alarmist. I have flown on numerous occasions to England from Rome on BA with the aircraft full of Italians, and the pilots could not speak a word of Italian.

Anyways, the flying is fun, the pilots are professional and a good bunch of guys(of all nationalities), the lifestyle is fabulous (you can't beat the Mediterranean climate), the Pay is great and looks lke we are getting new RJs to replace the 146s soon. Any place where you can buy a bottle of decent red for about 5Euros is all right by me.

La Vita e' Bella e la nave va.

[Invalid Delete]

Jumb0lin0 :

Have you been paid yet ?

[Jumb0lin0]

Yes I have been paid (the latest pay has not come thru yet, but usually comes thru by the first couple of days of the month). I spoke to a Flight Attendant (Italian) today and she said she has been paid now for July and is waiting like everyone for the latest pay to come into the bank. Please note that I also disagree with what has happened with regard to pay to date. Where the company is falling down is in "communicating" with staff. If there had been memos issued prior, people could have made plans/decisions. I believe management are well and truly aware of this now, so we will see what happens in the future.

Ciao
:)

[Dodger]

Well we have stirred it up a we bit aint we!!
Here we go again:
1. Invalid delete you obviously work in the office yourself(if at all) otherwise you would know if what I said was TRUE OR NOT!
so if you try to ridicule a statement in order to take away the point in question then you are not serving your fellow pilots well at all are you?

2. Jumbolino(corrected) seems to be more interested in the price of rosso than of deliberate retouching-up of ASR's which was the significance of the SAFETY comment.

3. Nothing could be more alarming than a co that cannot find the money to cover the payroll. It almost certainly means that it's not the only dept that is short of funds.(try having a chat with your Engineers,FMS et jumbolino).

The facts defend themselves they don't need my post to do it.
As for the Italians pilots that were arriving as I left(the flying not the interveiw,[invalid delert]) they have also gone mainly because they won't put up with that kind of crap for long, and why should they, it's their country.
While we are on the subject Jumbolino, If you are working and not being paid then by definition that makes you an AMATEUR too does it not!
LOL

Hey greyhound I thinks that makes us rats mate, under the sinking ship principle. :) ;)
;) ;)

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Dodger ]

[maybepilot]

Jumbolino,
by principle i have nothing against anybody, i only feel disgusted when things like the one at NJI happen.
It's so obvious to everybody why only the non-italian pilots and F/A's have been paid...since 95% of the pilots are from elsewhere they would have probably left leaving the company in deep sh*t.
It's not about communication between departments but about the consideration the company have of their employees, in this case the locals are seen as second class citizens in their own country.
As per your other comments i can't really say much since i don't know the outfit from inside, it's just a bit weird that an airline flying almost only domestic employs almost only non-locals...or am i wrong?
One thing i can comment on though:the good pay.
Sure it's good if you don't pay taxes....and per EU law you have to pay it in the EU country where you phisically reside for more than 180 days a year and not in dodgy islands or elserwhere.
That is if you get paid of course....

[fms146]

Dodger
Your last post made reference to me incorectly perhaps you could review it and then retract.
I stand by my only previous comments regarding the professionalisim of all crew both flight deck and cabin. They all work very hard and earn every cent they get, especially the cabin crew. I can also confirm that PA's are given in English and Italian. It is also policy for at least one cabin crew member to be fluent in italian

[Jumb0lin0]

The Company took steps to save itself whilst the float was going thru. If they hadn't done what they did, maybe the company would have ceased to exist and everyone would be out of job, is that better?? By all reports the float has been successful, the money is here, our load factors are good, and everyone is getting paid. Long may it continue, and I hope we keep getting stronger and bigger. Hey Mr Dodger, I guess as we are getting paid now, we are back to being professionals again by your definition. It was me who made the comment about the red wine, not FMS.
The sun is out again, another day in paradise, off to the beach for some sun and sailing before work this afternoon, (only two sectors today). :) :) :) :o (sunburnt)

[LAVDUMPER]

JumbOlinO,

What aircraft do NationalJet Italia fly? I think I read that it operates Bae146s and 737s.

Which fleet are you on and how do you like the condition of the equipment?

Best of luck to you and the other pilots!

Cheers

[Jumb0lin0]

LAVDUMPER,

NJI operates BAE146-300s(EFIS) and B737-400s. I'm on the 146. The Italian air trafficers call it a 'JUMBOLINO' (little Jumbo). I can't really compare the condition of our 146s but they seem to me to be a typical 146, although we have cd players and espresso machines on ours. The Flt deck has tcas, GPS fms (primitive), and all the normal stuff. If your have had time on them you will be aware of the nuances of the 146s. Anyways, read today a memo from the top confirming that we are getting 4 brand new RJs, (last ones off the production line) 2 RJ85s and 2 RJ100s, 1st 2 in Oct then one in Nov and one in Dec with options for 6 RJXs first delivery in Jun 02. Ground school for the RJ conversion starts in about 2 weeks.
It will be fun to go onto the RJs.
Cheers

Jumbolino. :)

[FreighterJock]

Excellent!That's good news..except that maybe you are going to fly 'em for FREE!!! Cheers! :D :D :D

[Invalid Delete]

Dodger your quotes :

It's definitely marginal on safety(thats why I left it alone!)
The cash is good the living is fun but thats marred by obscene conditions of service and a total disregard of FTL's

deliberate retouching-up of ASR's which was the significance of the SAFETY comment.

1) I objected to the first statement as you do not seem to have provided any evidence of this. I have not heard of anything "Dodgy" WRT safety, from my reliable sources at the AOC holders safety department. In fact all safety reports are taken very seriously and acted upon, according to my sources.

This is for the very reason that the AOC holder does not want to lose it's AOC for something "Dodgy" going on in another airline in another country.

Safety is largely dictated by the individuals at the sharp end. If you don't like the condition of the a/c - refuse to fly it like everyone else does.

2) WRT FTL's : You will probably be aware that the Italian FTL's permit significantly longer duty periods than other FTL schemes (e.g. the UK's) - BUT having familiarised yourself with them whilst working at NJI you will probably know that already.

3) WRT retouching-up of ASR's : This is a significant allegation and one, which if true needs to be investigated immediately. Just exactly who is able to do this ? These reports used to be faxed directly from the captain to the AOC holder with the flight report and filed with the relevant authorities. Where and when would this alleged "Touching up" be done ?

Please provide some evidence to back up your claims.
Just one example will do.

You obviously don't like NJI (for whatever reason) and that's fine. You are entitled to your own opinion. However you must be careful to quote your sources, if you are to validate the credibility of anything you are calling "facts". Just because you type something here it doesn't make it a "fact" - It is mearly an oppinion until then !!!

I was not trying to "ridicule" you. That would be superfluous. In fact you may recall me saying that I agreed with a lot of what you said.

And no I don't work in the office. I don't work for NJI either (I did fly the line there for a while, however). I just "know a few people in the know". :D

I do not claim to know all the facts and figures BUT I do object to unsubstantiated claims.

So until you can substantiate your claims with evidence it should be me telling you that :- "you are not serving your fellow pilots well at all are you?" rather than vice versa. Thank you.

[Dodger]

Invalid Delete:
In answer to your post, The AOC holders that you are so familiar with are based in the UK,NOT IN Palermo or Catania, where the brunt of the preasure of ops was to be found in the early days(1999).All ASR's were (by order) faxed to the NJI safety Dept(in Rome) NOT BWA(in SND), and miraculously many were not replied to at all by BWA, but by NJI! eg. BAC 1-11 tug bars in use at Rome(these have a dif wgt shear pin installed and so would not shear if required!).
There are many instances of this sort, of which I have many photocopy ASR's of my own which have never been aknowledged(most still in the flt-bag).More concerning is the fact that you seem so woefully unaware that these events even existed, I have no personal gripe with anybody but I do opose strongly any suggestion that an organisation is fualtless, when it most certainly is not.(that of NJI not BWA! you understand!)
I keep in touch with many colleagues in NJI and they asure me that things have improved but are still a long way from satisfactory(sms recieved today from cc no1)
On the point of FTL's obvoiusly nobody informed you, but in 1999 on a JAR atpl ticket on a G plated airframe you operate to UK CAA FTL's and also for your info the Ialian rules allow diferent hours, not necessarily LONGER ones, just different.
I do not and have never made unsubstatiated claims!( albeit a rumour column)
As you are no doubt aware BWA were the AOC holder for the interim period it was not a particularly happy marriage but it worked to get the ship afloat, but a dog in the UK with it's nose in Rome or Sicilly can't exactly tell when the nose is up some muts arse now can it?
On a positive note I hope the whole thing goes well if not just to keep a stable pilot/job situation, just as long as it's safe.
So my statement still stands as of the time that I worked there, if the system has altered then bravo! it needed to.
It is no secret that WS was an arrogant SOB and even my own few encounters with the man were to only strengthen that opinion. If you were there!,then you would not need any evidence from me you would have plenty of your own.
Another point on the subject, if a company does not pay you on the contracted time then they are in breech, and so NJI were(and obviously stil are!!!) in "breech" every month I worked for them,I think that covers the "quotes" you were confused about.
I strongly suggest you make coments on subjects you are directly familiar and not from "reliable sources", as they may not be as "reliable"! as you are sugesting.
Thank you.
As a member of this wonderfull .ORG for quite some time(check the memb#)you will have obviously noted that I do not make many posts, that is because sir I save them for the subjects "I KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT", there is a morale there if you look for it.
Mr Invalid Delete, we have one nose two eyes,two ears, and ONE MOUTH. May I suggest you use them in that proportion.
END

[Invalid Delete]

Dodger :

Well, I agree with you about WS. And I agree with you about paying salaries late.
I agree that nobody or company is faultless.
(Don't think that I ever said that NJI were - Don't know where you got that one from.)

I am well aware of who the AOC holder is and where they are located.

Under ones obligation as a pofessional, one should be reporting significant safety issues with the CAA via the MOR system if one does not get a satisfactory reply from internal channels (i.e. from NJI) (or any company for that matter).

Whilst I was at NJI we faxed the Safety reports to BWA, with the flight reports, discretion reports etc. This procedure may have changed, however. But I find it incredible that reports were not sent to the AOC holder !!!
I am well aware of the fuel spillage incidents (which were the fault of the refuelling company, due to faulty equipment) among other incidents. Wrong tow bars being used and incidents like the fuel spillage are not airline specific safety issues more like ground handling problems.
Please don't misunderstand this as me saying that this is OK - it is not. It is just that it is not the airlines fault if some muppet tug driver connects the wrong tow bar. This does not make NJI unsafe alone. (Unless of course NJI specifically asked the tug drivers to use the wrong bars.)
No offence intended to tug drivers (or muppets for that matter!!)

As for operating outside FTL's (whoevers, it doesn't matter) - Just say no.

Failing that, tell the person who is putting the pressure on you to extend your duty outside the permitted scheme that you will do the extended duty - but you need them to fax you with written confirmation allowing you to operate outside the companys and/or the CAA's legal maximum requirements.
That normally takes the pressure off you and puts it on the person making the impossible commercial demands. I have to date, never recieved a fax from anyone authorising me to do this. :D

BTW, I considder the person standing next to me to be as reliable a source as an SMS text message. :)

AS far as I know NJI still don't have their own AOC (JAA or Italian). But I could be wrong.

[Dodger]

ID
With ref: Tug bars. This was a direct instruction from WS himself, due to NJI having no bars of there own[u can chk that](He was in the rear with the PR machine and the commander was between rock and hard)no blame goes to the ground crews as they were arguing against the use of said equipment.
The "sms" reference was purely a remark to your "in the know reference". All the previous about safety was first hand.
Working for a co through another operator gives you great freedom to quote from the book of words as you have a fortunate"going home" get out clause, those poor souls at NJI did not have the same luxury, with an active fire an hire policy from WS.
Again It's horses for courses I guess.you use the words "normally takes the pressure off" in the context of NJI that is I am afraid a juxtaposition in that context, they were anything from normal!
On a much lighter note the great NJI engineering quote goes to, "But sir, Its not big and its not clever!",they did at least keep their sense of humour.