Crack grounds NZ Hercules in Indonesia

[Wirraway]

NZPA

Crack grounds NZ Hercules in Indonesia
31 December 2004

A New Zealand air force Hercules sent to Indonesia to help after the killer tsunami struck there on Sunday has been grounded after a crack was found in the manifold, the Defence Force said tonight.

The air force has had the Hercules since the 1960s, a spokeswoman told NZPA.

"The Hercules in unserviceable at the moment. A small crack was found in the manifold of the aircraft, which means it can't fly."

A New Zealand maintenance team was working on the aircraft tonight and trying to source a new part from Indonesia or further afield, the spokeswoman said.

"They may try to get a part flown out from New Zealand.

"The aircraft should be back flying by tomorrow."

Meanwhile, the plane's flight crew and a New Zealand medic who was flown over on the Hercules were working with Indonesian authorities to co-ordinate rescue efforts. Nearly 80,000 people have been killed in that country.

"They're still busy, even though they're not in the air," the spokeswoman said.

The Hercules left New Zealand earlier this week and waited in the Australian city of Darwin for further instructions.

It arrived just outside Jakarta late on Wednesday night.

The Defence Force spokeswoman told NZPA the Hercules had not been scheduled to return to New Zealand for about a week, and was to have been used for transportation of aid around Indonesia during that time.

It is not the first time New Zealand aircraft on aid missions have been hampered by problems.

In 2002, a New Zealand air force Hercules bound for Bali to help in post-bombing operations was grounded in Darwin because of a cracked windscreen. Another Hercules was grounded in Brisbane for two days for repairs.

The Defence Force spokeswoman said a total of about 10 New Zealand staff had flown to Indonesia on the Hercules.

Another New Zealand team of police, body identification and body recovery specialists and Defence Force staff flew from Darwin to Thailand today on an air force 757.

About 4500 people have been killed in Thailand, more than 2200 of them foreigners.

===========================================

Sat "Melbourne Age"

More helicopters for relief

Defence personnel today began loading a Russian Antonov jet freighter which will leave Queensland for Jakarta tomorrow with three army Iroquois helicopters plus support staff and other aid.

Another Antonov is expected to leave Sydney on Monday carrying a mobile field hospital with capacity for 55 beds, as well as an extra Iroquois.

The Australian Defence Force is setting up headquarters in Medan on the west coast of Sumatra, about 500km from the ravaged Banda Aceh, to coordinate the relief effort.

Apart from the Antonovs, HMAS Kanimbla set sail from Sydney yesterday with about 300 sailors, aircrew, medical staff and army personnel onboard to begin the rebuilding process.

Defence Minister Robert Hill said the post in Medan would help defence personnel plan the distribution of aid and the best placement of Australians helping in relief efforts.

"We are already witnessing a logjam at key airfields and we need to ensure that we can get essential aid, supplies and assistance into the affected areas as quickly as possible," Senator Hill said.

Mr Downer said while aid was getting to key locations, there were problems distributing it to the people most in need.

==========================================

[Gnadenburg]

It is a regional responsibility of New Zealand to provide disaster relief- a modern Hercules fleet the cornerstone.

[itchybum]

It was either that or send the entire CT-4 fleet.

[henry crun]

What a blessing it must be for the Australians to know that their aircraft never go u/s for any reason when overseas. :rolleyes:

[Speeds high]

didn't the Herc they sent to Nuie also break down ( not a good record in relife so far)

[Far Canard]

Know it all Aussies

What do you know:

The part number of the U/S part?
Its manufacture date?
Its total time in service?

Most likely the part is not the same age as the aircraft and is just a typical aircraft defect.

[V1OOPS]

In response to another natural disaster elsewhere overseas some years ago, 3 RAAF C130s rocked up with a payload of choppers, etc. Once the humanitarian job was done they packed the choppers back inside, cranked up the Allisons and oops ... one wouldn't start.

No matter, two got away OK and the crook one waited a day or two for another C130 to arrive with a spare Allison on board. This was swapped on the hot tropical tarmac and in due course engine runs showed it was ready to fly back to Oz. All the scaffolds and tools (and a chopper) were packed back into both C130s and they prepared to leave.

Double Oops!

The 'rescue' C130 couldn't get one of its engines running! With cunning foresight to leave the crane, scaffolds and a socket set where they might need it next, they sent the repaired C130 (with a chopper still inside) back to get yet another engine from Oz. ... which it did.

I guess there was much rejoicing on board when the last one finally cranked up and all C130s got away OK :)

Phew!

[tinpis]

Ton Son Nhat 1971

American atco to landing Kiwi Bristol freighter
"Ahhh sir what kind of aircraft is that?"

Kiwi crew:
"Its a Bristol 170 sir"

Atco:
"Ahhh ..roger that..didya build it yaself?"

[Milt]

NZAF Hercules Manifold

Presume the manifold was the bleed air manifold probably with a mini crack somewhere. If so why not some ANZAC ingenuity?

Normal engine starts use manifold bleed air. If the leak from the crack remains insignificant then start engines normally, close off the bleeds and get out of the way of all the other loads inbound you are preventing. If the manifold leak is too bad then do buddy starts with another Hercules. Then go someplace else unpressurised to be fixed.

Every Hercules load will be saving many lives so keep them moving.

[Mr Proachpoint]

Presume? Probably?

Genius.


MAPt

[Buster Hyman]

Old planes (cars,trucks,lawnmowers) breakdown...so friggin' what?:rolleyes: The tragedy is that it might delay further relief efforts on the Kiwis part.

So they haven't got a C130J...again, so friggin' what? It seems anything that has to do with the Tsunami is headline news and considering that there are far more important issues that the world has to deal with, I don't think a cracked manifold is very pertinant right now!:mad:

At least they were there.

[Islander Jock]

Friggin Great! Every country in the region busting their collective balls to provide whatever relief and assistance they can and what do we get? Some dim witted, excess to requirement journo sniffing around an airport finds a Herc with the cowlings off. So What.
Get a life you journo low lifes and go out and do what your editor and newspaper / television station or whatever is paying you to do, report on the tragedy. Not come up with this crap to justify your airfares and per diem.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

OK I feel better now. Off to check out the The Lazy Journalists Plane Story Generator (http://radans.net/jens/planestory.html)

[Ron & Edna Johns]

Love it, Islander Jock! Ok, so how can I get it published?!?!

[Gnadenburg]

Keep your hair on Buster.

Nobody is doubting the professionalism and efforts of the NZ military.

It is bringing to attention the wanton neglect of the NZ defence forces by Helen Clarke.

This tragedy reinforces the neccessity of modern and effective defence resources.

The combat wing was disposed of with assurances of upgrading transport and helicopter capabilities- both superb disaster relief platforms. Are there any operational Kiwi helicopters? Hercs down to 3?

A wake up call. Next time it maybe a shooting match. New Zealand nationals will be totally reliant on Australian & Americans to rescue them in future regional conflicts, skirmishes and terrorism scenarios.

[sport]

Come on you guys, do you want a national flag carrier or an airforce you can't have both.

[tinpis]

OT but does the RNZAF still have those kneeling planes?

[BankAngle50]

I didn’t think NZ could afford/had an Airforce anymore? Still, good to see third world nations trying to help other third world nations. :ok:

[Wirraway]

NZcity
3 January 2005

A New Zealand Air Force Hercules is embarking on its fourth mission to the tsunami-ravaged Indonesian region of Aceh today.

The Hercules has already taken filtration equipment, milk products, rice and 16,000 pounds of freight to the area.

It has flown 16 Indonesian Red Cross workers into the area and moved 33 displaced locals out of Aceh.

Meanwhile a Boeing 757 will leave Malaysia for Richmond Air Base in Australia.

It will work in conjunction with the Australian Air Force, airlifting personnel and equipment from Australia to Indonesia.

Eighteen members of the Defence Force medical team have arrived in Malaysia. The rest of the team on board a second Hercules is on the way to the area.

===========================================

[CT7]

tinpis

Nah, we sold them off. The C-MK1 Andover. I think they're in Africa somewhere.

Helen has $6.6 Billion surplus in her coffers. She could buy whatever she wanted. As long as it's femimine (in a mascuelin(?) sorta way) and has nothing to do with Armed Conflict!

She can't sell the Skyhawks 'cause the US State Dept. wont let her "'cause we don't play with them in their world sized sandpit!".

[Far Canard]

BankAngle50

"I didn’t think NZ could afford/had an Airforce anymore? Still, good to see third world nations trying to help other third world nations."

It's good to see you are up on what’s happening around the area. Perhaps your are still looking for those weapons of mass destruction. Good to see first world nations keeping third world nations safe (keep searching those WMD must be there).

[tinpis]

Maybe kiwis should be allowed to come and play with our ozzer toys?
Even take one home for the weekend?

[ZK-NSJ]

if yer look at the ranks of yer airforce tinny, a good portion of them are kiwis

[itchybum]

Yep and it's heart-warming to think our sheep-loving brethren from across the water are willing to sign up and die for us in some far-flung land.

Would we do the same for them???

(Of course we would...!!!! ;) )

[Buster Hyman]

They are there to defend the Aussie dole in case we get invaded!;) :p

[Gnadenburg]

ZK-NSJ

Because New Zealanders are forbidden access to high tech US weaponry- some Hornet missile systems come to mind - I imagine any Kiwi at the sharp end would now be citizens of Australia. :p


Far Canard

I won't enter the arena referencing your isolationist stance, but considering the deeds at Chunuk Bair and beyond, it is sad to here of reference to the NZ military now being a hinderence in military operations.

It is Helen Clarke to blame. Where are your helicopters? Are they operational this week? If you send one on disaster relief do you now have any counter terrorism resources?

It is ironic that the only addition to the RNZAF in recent years has been Helen's VIP 757.

[hadagutful]

Look, the Kiwis aren't stupid, they know no-one will invade their country, it is too bloody wet and cold.
And who wants to live with 10 million sheep.

Seriously though, for a country with a great aviation tradition ( remember they "pinched" our CT-4 production and then promptly sold them back to us) it is sad to see their military aviation reduced to a token gesture.
All because of the current government's stupid political philosophy on defence.

Ah well, there's always the mates over the Tasman or the good friends over the other side of the Pacific.

P.S. To you Far Canard, we got the WMD in case you hadn't heard, Saddam Insane (sic), apparently he mass destructed tens of thousands of human beings.

[CT7]

I dunno about that.... Have you seen the kit in the New lav-3s... Might not be a Hornet Missile System but possibly more hi-tech. Might never get used but still quite kool!

Anyways, you'll probably be assembling the NH/MH-90s that we'll be getting and tagging onto your order (to get a better discount).

Or maybe we could get your 2nd hand F-18s after you've trashed them when you get F-22s...?

Remember Herr Clarke protested over Vietnam and the arrival of the A-4s.....

[Wirraway]

stuff.co.nz

Fault stops NZ disaster relief flight
08 January 2005
By MARTIN KAY

A Kiwi relief flight to the Indonesian region worst hit by the Boxing Day tsunamis was cancelled and Foreign Affairs Minister Phil Goff missed the chance to visit the area after another mechanical failure with an air force Hercules.

The breakdown yesterday was the latest in a string of problems with the ageing fleet, which is due for a $226 million upgrade from next year.

It is the second time one of the two New Zealand Hercules C130s working in Indonesia has missed a relief flight due to mechanical failure.

Yesterday's cancellation came as the aircraft prepared to take aid from Jakarta to Aceh province, which was devastated by the Boxing Day tsunami.

Goff was hitching a ride on the plane to inspect the province and assess how best New Zealand could help.

The breakdown meant he missed the chance, as he was flying back to New Zealand last night.

A Defence Force spokeswoman said the Hercules could not fly because of a fault with the gas turbine compressor, which generates pressure to start the engines.

She said the plane would be grounded today for a scheduled maintenance day, but was expected to fly tomorrow.

On New Year's Eve, the other Hercules was grounded for a day and missed a scheduled relief flight after a crack was found in the manifold.

The spokeswoman said the breakdowns were "extremely frustrating" for the crews, but were due to the long hours the planes were working.

"Some of the flights aren't getting back until one or two in the morning, so they have had about two hours to do work and prep them for the next flight."

The breakdown is the latest in a string of problems with the air force fleet.

Last January, a Hercules was stranded in Niue during the Cyclone Heta relief effort after a problem with its oil gauge.

In May, air force chief Air Vice Marshal John Hamilton was forced to defend the service's planes after unspecified problems with a 757 delayed a troop deployment to the Solomon Islands.

The breakdown came a day after a P3 Orion made a precautionary landing at Tauranga after fumes were detected in the cockpit.

Act leader Rodney Hide said the Indonesia groundings showed that successive governments had underfunded the Defence Force.

"There's no doubt we've run down our military," Hide said. "Thank God for the Australians and the US."

National MP Nick Smith said two breakdowns in two weeks was "beyond a joke".

"These breakdowns illustrate just how badly the Government has run down our air force. An unreliable air force is pointless," Smith said. "The very nature of military work is that it must be responsive and reliable in emergencies."

However, Defence Minister Mark Burton accused Smith of "cheap political point-scoring at a time of crisis", when the aircraft were being pushed to their limits.

In December, the Government awarded a $226m contract to a Canadian company to overhaul the five 38-year-old Hercules.

The refit includes replacing wing and fuselage components, upgrading mechanical and electrical systems and installing new communications and navigation equipment.

The first plane will be upgraded by late next year, with the other four finished by 2010.

The work is expected to extend the life of the planes by 15 years.

THE PRESS

===========================================

[ZK-NSN]

All very well taking the piss out of our Herc's, they are old. Probably not quite as old as the Caribou's that you Aussies are still flying, but a little older than the F-111 that you also still operate.

[Milt]

ZK-NSM

What else is there to take it out of ?

There's none left in the A4s!!

And we did deposit a couple of F-111s over there for you to play with!

[slice]

I would be interested to know what airframe hours the NZ hercs have on them. Speaking to a Caribou pilot a few years back he indicated that most if not all of the fleet were under 20000 hrs. Interesting given that I have flown Cessnas half as old with 25000+

[treholer]

.

[the wizard of auz]

Aparently, we just sold six of 12 of our "E" models, operated by 37 squadron from 1966 to 2000, to the Pakistan airforce. Actually, they were traded in to Lockheed martin on the new "J" models and then were sold on to Pakistan.
they also sold off (traded) a wrecked E for spares.
Looks like new "J's" all round guys. Not what they were meant to be though, apparently.

[Milt]

the wizard of auz

How/when did we wreck an E model or did it turn into a Xmas tree?

And are the Pakis flying the Es yet?

[BCF Breath]

The 757 that was grounded in Fiji a while back was due to a supposed blown engine..torched or whatever.
The problem being that the replacement engine wasn't the right sort... some differences with the fire protection system or similar.
I mean you buy 2 jets, one would've thought you'd get the CORRECT engines as spare parts.

And not too long ago heard on talkback radio was the Min. of Def saying that the P-3 Orion was not designed for ASW Ops!!
I ask ya!

[Wirraway]

Tues "The Australian"

Red-faced Kiwis to boost aid donation
Claire Harvey, New Zealand correspondent
January 11, 2005

NEW Zealand will dramatically raise its tsunami aid after criticism of the Government's "inadequate" $NZ10million donation and embarrassment over aircraft breakdowns that have hampered aid flights.

Two New Zealand Air Force C-130 Hercules planes have struck maintenance problems in recent days while attempting to deliver aid to the Indonesian province of Aceh, forcing flights to be delayed and preventing Foreign Minister Phil Goff from touring the devastated region.

Political uproar now surrounds the "national embarrassment" the Opposition said was caused by the troubled Hercules, which have broken down several times in the past.

In 2002, the Hercules failed en route to Bali to evacuate victims of the nightclub bombings, and last year deployments to Nuie and the Solomon Islands were delayed by breakdowns.

New Zealand's cabinet is expected next Tuesday to approve a boost to the aid budget, which sources said could bring the total donation to $NZ80million ($73.4million) in cash, military equipment and defence personnel.

Already, more than 120 New Zealand defence, medical and police personnel are working in Aceh and Thailand.

Individual Kiwis have donated $NZ9million but the official contribution adds up to just $NZ 2.45 a person, compared with Australia's $NZ 57.25 per person.

"New Zealanders are a generous people and would expect their Government to be more forthcoming," said Opposition Leader Don Brash, adding that New Zealand should follow Australia's lead by holding a national day of mourning.

The equipment failures were a clear result of the Labour Government's lack of attention to defence, Dr Brash said.

Prime Minister Helen Clark scrapped the fighter-jet wing of the air force and decided to renovate the fleet of five 38-year-old Hercules rather than buying new aircraft -- decisions understood to have baffled and infuriated the highest levels of Australian government.

"There's no doubt we have run down our military," said Rodney Hide, leader of New Zealand right-wing minor party Act. "Thank God for the Australians and the US."

But Defence Minister Mark Burton accused his rivals of "cheap political point-scoring", saying the Hercules breakdowns were the result of the intense, constant rescue work.

"New Zealand has been very generous and a further major contribution is coming," Mr Burton said.

============================================

[itchybum]

Looks like new "J's" all round guys What about the "H" Models? Is 36 Sqn getting "J"s now, too???

Have they figured out how to successfully meat-bomb with them???

[ZK-NSJ]

and wot would some half-bit australian rag know about new zealand foreign policy?, who decides what is inadequate?:yuk:

[Milt]

NZ-NSJ

This is a network for Professionals in Aviation.

Illiterates from NZ, or Australia, just don't measure up.

If I was a New Zealander and an aviator I would also be proud of my country so would take care to post professionally.

Unless you are "taking the mickey out of us" your post should have been.

"And what would some half-bit Australian rag know about New Zealand foreign policy? Who decides what is inadequate?"

Check the difference.

So go back to a better school than the one you went to for a very short period.

[ZK-NSJ]

oh, my mistake, next time ile make sure i have a plum in my mouth before i say anything,
and just for your information, i went to a very good school that has produced not only lord ernest rutherford, but also at least 1 former prime minister, and 1 secutary general of the comenwealth. so i suggest to you rather than spend your time being petty , go and do something usefull.

[BCF Breath]

As a Kiwi, what DO we know about foreign policy, given our Govt. reckons we "live in a benign strategic environment"?

And I heard that the "J's" weren't all that they were supposed to be... The Guys on the Hercs (H models) at the moment don't talk too highly of them...

[itchybum]

Isn't it "half-bitten"???

Actually it's probably more like:

"half-baked",

"hard-bitten",

"half-cocked", or

"half-wit".

But not "half-bit".

Dumb kiwis...............

;)

[the wizard of auz]

Milt, Dunno about the "E" model, but as it was traded, one would assume it was a complete airframe. maybe it was timexed or had some fatigue issues.
As for the "H" models, I dunno who's getting what, but the aircraft were definately traded on "Js".

ZK, oh, my mistake, next time ile make sure i have a plum in my mouth before i say anything,
and just for your information, i went to a very good school that has produced not only lord ernest rutherford, but also at least 1 former prime minister, and 1 secutary general of the comenwealth. so i suggest to you rather than spend your time being petty , go and do something usefull.
Just go's to show that you don't have to be a rocket scientist to be a lord or prime minister then.
I would be thinking your primary school teacher would slap you upside the head for your spelling, if they got to read this. :E

[itchybum]

The "H" model is still in service, as you can see in the last paragraph of this link. (http://www.defence.gov.au/raaf/organisation/technology/aircraft/herc_h.htm)

No sign of them being replaced by "J" models, as were the "E" models.

[ZK-NSN]

Milt - Are you suggesting that because his spelling is not up to scratch, that NSJ is unprofessional?

I suggest you champion's try www.grammer&spelling.nerds.com/loser. Who gives a toss how he spelt the damn post, the point was clear. NZ will give what it can and what is appropriate whether that be finacial or equipment.
Trying to say New Zealanders dont care or are slackers because have only contributed $2.45 p.p is complete bulls*#t! The person who wrote that article need's to remove their head from their ars*hole.
This will not be a short term issue, 5 years from now there will still be work to be done in the damaged area's and im sure NZ will be there to help.

[Gnadenburg]

The stripping of NZ defence capabilities is nothing short of bludging on a national scale. Helen Clarke abolished any meaningful combat capabilities, with promises of an upgraded defence force and a more applicable peacekeeping role. Nothing has been delivered only further erosion and embarrassment!

The New Zealand air force is at best a Police Air Wing. Probably the most expensive Police Air wing in the world considering what a nominal capability it delivers.

All of the present capabilities of the RNZAF could be replaced by civilian resources. Far cheaper too.

Old Orions replaced by Coastwatch style aircraft. Herc's contracted out to civillian freight lift companies . Helen's VIP 757's could be sold and the role given to AirNZ. Scrap the training aircraft and expensive training resources as why do you need military style training for a police air wing? Utility helicopters for civil defence contracted out and scrap the Bell 47's.

Millions could be saved by disbanding the RNZAF.

But not only are the Kiwi's bludgers, they are parochial bludgers at that!

Having a token defence budget gives their national psyche a conscience, when other countries soldiers are in harms way rescuing NZ nationals abroad or protecting NZ economic interests.

[treholer]

Just curious

Gnadenburg

Having a token defence budget gives their national psyche a conscience, when other countries soldiers are in harms way rescuing NZ nationals abroad or protecting NZ economic interests

When were other countries soldiers put in harms way rescuing NZ nationals aboard? Maybe my memory is not what it used to be.

[ZK-NSJ]

yeah?, please tell gnadenburg, you seem to be knowledgable in this area, or are you one of these types who like to shoot your mouth off with no evidence to back up your comments, if so quit it, our defence force may not be the best most well equiped in the world, it has been run to the ground by government after government, but they do a good job with what they have got, just ask any yachtie (from any nationality) who has been saved by an orion in the pacific ocean, or the people of east timor, and in various communities in southern iraq, afganistan and bosnia, as well as the mine clearing work in africa, are you saying thats not worth it?

[Gnadenburg]

Greetings ANZAC's


Treholer.

I do not have a crystal ball so I can not give an exact time in the FUTURE when NZ nationals will be stranded in a hostile environment or NZ economic interests under threat - without even mentioning "laughable" New Zealand Defence Policy of contributing to global security.

New Zealand's present humanatarian relief challenges with the Tsunami, will be compounded when a similar and future situation develops; which has people shooting back! New Zealand is now ill-prepared for a hostile contingency.

ZK-NSJ

East Timor was the swansong in NZ Defence capability- a contribution of land, ground and air forces. Lost and eroding capabilities since Timor include: a regionally effective fighter bomber, effective medium and light airlift ( Andovers gone and Hercules fleet struggling ), utility and scout helicopters obsolete and the understated deterioration of Orion capabilities ( there were sub-surface considerations in Timor evidently ).

The present day NZ defence force is eroded in warfighting capability.

You asked me - " Are you saying it is not worth it ? ". Probably not. Considering the nominal capability deliverd your defence force is a ridiculous expense.

I would suggest Helen Clarke goes one step further and disbands the New Zealand Defence Force. It would save the present wasted millions that your defence resources command, on what is just a blunt knife.

RNZAF replaced by a Police Air Wing, RNZN replaced by a coastguard and the Army replaced with an expanded police force with a sound investment in SWAT like capabilities.

[henry crun]

Gnadenburg: So when you said " when other countries soldiers are (note the use of that word) in harms way rescuing NZ nationals abroad or protecting NZ economic interests " it was was just a lie ?

[ZK-NSJ]

from the rnzaf website,


Hercules Returns Home


One of the RNZAF C-130 Hercules, which has been flying relief operations in tsunami-affected areas, will today leave Indonesia.

The Hercules will fly to Darwin today (8 January) and is due to arrive at RNZAF Base Whenuapai tomorrow night (9 January).

Once back in New Zealand the Hercules and crew will continue with planned tasking, including supporting NZDF personnel rotations to Afghanistan.

Chief of the Defence Force, Air Marshal Bruce Ferguson says he’s extremely proud of the work done by the two C-130 Hercules, the Boeing 757 and their crews.

“The decision was made to send two C-130s to area. These aircraft were carrying defects at the time, however they were still able to fly valuable humanitarian aid in to Banda Ache,” he said

“To date the two C-130s have flown 75 hours on task. This is not a bad effort and should take precedent over the two relatively minor faults that have been repaired.”

“Those criticising should look at what the crews have done to keep the aircraft flying.”

“I’m immensely proud of the way my young men and women have come together.
I called them in at short notice, many came back from leave and they were all willing to deploy overseas and take part in the relief effort.”

“The Government has approved an upgrade project, which will effectively restore the aircraft to virtually new condition. Many nations around the world are watching what we doing with our C-130s as all nations who fly the aircraft face similar problems to us.”

“These young men and women they fly these aircraft should be praised and not criticised. They are proud of what they are doing – we all should be.”

The C-130 Hercules remaining in Jakarta will continue flying humanitarian aid to affected areas.

An RNZAF Boeing 757 will also continue flying relief missions.

[Gnadenburg]

Henry Crun

"WHEN" was used in the context that it is "INEVITABLE" that future conflicts will involve New Zealand nationals and interests in someway.

Will New Zealanders never be caught up in terrorism, civil war or social anarchy? Scenarios that are inevitable in our backyard.

Will New Zealand interests never be in jeopardy? Trade routes to Asia or the Mid East vulnerable in time of future war. The inevitable rogue state, whether under the pretext of a dictaorship or religion, destabilising a region or partaking in ethnic cleansing.

Helen Clarke has stated her 21st century Defence Policy includes contributions to all of the above scenarios under the guise of Global Security an Peace Keeping.

Her government has run down the NZ defence forces with the inevitable bludging on US, Australian and UK defence resources; aswell as those of emerging nations.

Remarks by NATO generals that NZ soldiers were so poorly equipped that they were a hinderence in basic peacekeeping efforts, or reports elite but poorly kitted NZ SAS initially dug latrines for German soldiers in Afganistan, indications NZ nationals ( albeit in uniform ) may have already been rescued or kept out of harms way by foreign troops!

ZK-NSJ

Would you be happy to send young New Zealand men and women to a future war with unservicable equipment?

Why have the Hercules not been replaced as per Helen Clarke's promises of years gone by? Is she a bludger or is bludging, collectively, a New Zealand pastime?

[ZK-NSJ]

so one of our sas guys getting his foot blown off when the vehicle he was in hit a mine was untrue then?, unless ofcourse he was taking a break from his latrine digging,, now i have been in the nz army myself for a short period, and i have various mates who still are there, one of which recently came back from 6 months in basra, another of which is learning how to drive a brand new lav-3 , believe me for the money these guys and girls get to do the job they do, its obvious they are committed to the cause, would you go to the otherside of the world and risk your life for under $25 grand a year, i doubt it, but these guys do, and you sitting on your lounge chair watching the cricket with the beers in the fridge feel obligated to comment on something that a) has nothing to do with the original thread anyway, b) you arnt in the nz military, you only read what **** for brains reporters write and obviously u believe what they say, notice how in the newspaper article it went on and on about the mechanical fault yet said little about what the crews had done while they had been there, 75hrs in only a few days delivering vital supplys, but ofcourse the reporter isnt sent there to report on the good side of things all they want to do is dig for skeletons , and then have the gall to critisise us for sending inadequate support, 2 or 3 years at journalism school, and they come out as bigger bull**** artists than politicians are. :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: and are you calling bludging a new zealand pasttime???, if so go jump in the lake, tell my mate who works 3 jobs and 80hrs a week that, or myself i work 65hrs a week in 2 jobs to make a living, i detest the fact that u feel you can comment on such matters, when you dont even bloody well live here....

(from archived nzdf media)

NZ SOLDIERS INJURED IN AFGHANISTAN
Wednesday October 23, 2002

Air Marshal Bruce Ferguson, Chief of Defence Force, stated today that three members of the NZ SAS contingent serving in Afghanistan were wounded yesterday when the vehicle in which they were patrolling ran over a landmine and was destroyed.

“Our three soldiers, the only occupants of the vehicle, were on a routine patrol when it hit the mine,” said Air Marshal Ferguson.

“Their injuries are serious but not life-threatening. They were quickly evacuated to a military hospital in theatre where they are being treated. All are in stable condition. One soldier will be returned to New Zealand via Germany while the other two are likely to remain in theatre with their unit.

“I will not be releasing their names but their families have been informed of the incident and the injuries sustained by the soldiers.

“The coalition forces value highly the work being undertaken by our soldiers in Afghanistan and we can all take pride in the professionalism they bring to their often difficult, and, as shown by this incident, dangerous task.”

For further media inquiries, the Minister of Defence and the Chief of Defence Force will be holding a media conference at 11.45 am, Minister’s office, Beehive 5.3

ENDS

Released by
Wing Commander John Seward



digging latrines my f***ing arse

[one ball]

So when you said " when other countries soldiers are (note the use of that word) in harms way rescuing NZ nationals abroad or protecting NZ economic interests " it was was just a lie ? He's talking about when the cops rescue kiwi ("NZ nationals abroad") dole-bludgers ("NZ economic interests") from a pummelling in the Coogee Bay Hotel.


You see, that monster of a PM hates the RNZAF. It is paying them back for when they had to rescue it from the ANsett baggage-snatchers who single-handedly brought New Zulland to its knees by corralling their PM with a bunch of baggage trolleys at Tullamarine a few years ago.

The RNZAF invaded us with a P-3 sent to rescue it and it had to sit on a life-raft drinking luke-warm tea stirred by the Nav's old fella.

Sending a P-3 instead of somthing more plush was payback for scrapping the A-4s.

This act by the baggies (which they still laugh about) was nearly cause for (a very short) war between our great nation and the other two states. Problem was, the Hobbitonians couldn't invade when they realised half of them were already over here bludging on the beaches.

The Moral of the Story? Never drink tea that isn't scalding hot.


:eek:

[Austin Holed]

"ANsett baggage-snatchers who single-handedly brought New Zulland to its knees"?????

I just thought they parked a few airport vehicles around a 737 on the gate, crikey, I never realised that New Zealand was nearly destroyed by this action! I want some of whatever "one ball" is on, must be powerful stuff indeed to take you that far from reality.

And by the way Gnadenburg, you shouldn't really call all NZers bludgers. It is very dangerous to generalise in such matters, otherwise we could make the assumption that all Aussies were tossers (judging by some of the drivel that has been posted here)

The RNZAF has some stuffed old Hercs, but the crews that fly & maintain them were out there doing their best to help other people. If the most anyone can get out of this is a trans-Tasman slanging match, well that's a pretty sad commentary on your respective lives.

[Plas Teek]

I wouldn't just blame the existing Govt.
The previous one had a good run at winding it down. HOWEVER at least they had some plans to upgrade it prior to their defeat. EG, F-16s.
The current Govt is finally starting to do something after how many years in power??
Only now are the Hercs being upgraded (or about to be) the Choppers are finally about to get signed off.
The Army are finally getting some sort of Air Defence (which was a problem in Bosnia), the LAVs are new...and heavy. But how many Armys send tanks to war in aircraft? Normally by sea. But did we need 105, I don't think so.
We could've got half the number and STILL got the F-16s.

Mis-management at higher levels needs to be addressed before anything concrete can happen.

Anyway they're doing a job to the best of their abilities and those of the aircraft.
Lets not mention Aussie Subs.

[Buster Hyman]

Lets not mention Aussie Subs.
Fair enough...shall we talk about the Kiwi subs then?:eek:

[Plas Teek]

Just a heads up that it's not just our kit that is below par.

[BCF Breath]

Fair enough.
Anyway just a few tidbits off the local rag........ the second is quite humorous. Just a pity it's true.

NZ Herald 14JAN05
Hercules fleet needs to be replaced and expanded, say critics

RNZAF Hercules.
14.01.05 1.00pm
Royal New Zealand Air Force Hercules aircraft are criticised every time one breaks down. The latest glitches in tsunami-devastated Asia have once more raised concerns that the fleet is too old and too small, Heather Tyler of NZPA reports.


Retired chief of defence Air Marshal Carey Adamson has great affection for the Hercules, dubbed Herc, hero of the skies.

He was one of the original crews to fly the first RNZAF Hercules, the C130H, into Wellington, 40 years ago in April this year.

But he says New Zealand's fleet should start to be replaced now, instead of being upgraded, and that more are needed.

"Even with the upgrades, sooner or later they will have to be replaced and it will cost hugely to do this. It's better to replace a couple now, at least. And we need more than five," he told NZPA in an interview.

He praised the Hercules' workhorse capability, saying they performed a wider range of functions now than ever, particularly for humanitarian relief efforts.

New Zealand's five Hercs were delivered between 1965 and 1968.

At least 60 countries fly the same aircraft.

Australia has 24 Hercules, its 12 C130H models in service since 1966 replaced by new C130Js in 1999. The other 12 C130Hs, in service since 1978, have been upgraded.

Britain's Royal Air Force has 49 of the aircraft, including five in reserve. It replaced 25 older types in 2000.

Air Marshal Adamson said New Zealand had the chance to buy C130Js in conjunction with an Australian deal with Lockheed in the late 1990s, but when Australia withdrew, New Zealand's opportunity disappeared.

The RNZAF was a victim of the fact it operated a very small fleet.

"One was always out of service for maintenance, in pieces on a hangar floor. In recent years aircraft could be overseas for more extended periods and one was always needed to stay in New Zealand in case of an emergency," Air Marshall Adamson said.

"Given the multiple tasks the Herc can perform, the fleet's resources were often stretched to the limit."

Apart from carrying troops and other personnel, the transport is used for search and rescue, as an aerial tanker, for humanitarian relief, as an airborne hospital, Antarctic support, weather reconnaissance and, to a limited extent, in a gunship capacity.

"We don't have a lot of flexibility," Air Marshal Adamson said.

"Air forces like to have aircraft in reserve. We don't have that luxury. The fleet is too small. We need more planes -- that's the way you run an air force."

One of the country's loudest critics of the ageing fleet is NZ First defence spokesman Ron Mark. He's become more irate since the combat wing of the air force was scrapped at the end of 2001.

Before he went into politics, Mr Mark was a military mechanical engineer.

He believes the Hercules fleet should be replaced, not upgraded as the Government plans with $226 million earmarked for modification.

It will be 2010 before the upgrades are complete and the aircraft will then last another 15 years.

It's the cheaper option for the Government -- estimated replacement cost of the five C130s is more than $800m.

Mr Mark says reducing defence spending is wrong -- it's downplaying possibly the best foreign aid tool New Zealand has to offer in terms of defence and disaster relief.

"It's foolhardy to focus on the so-called benign defence environment in the South Pacific and use that as an excuse for under-investment in defence obligations."

Mr Mark said New Zealand's ability to respond to an international emergency such as terrorism or natural disasters, at home or abroad, often hinged on how rapidly it could deploy defence resources.

"Quite clearly, with successive governments running down their commitments and expenditure on defence, our ability to respond is in question. It's clearly hampered by the unreliability of our aircraft."

In the past few days two Hercs were grounded during tsunami relief efforts in Indonesia -- one with a cracked engine manifold and one with a gas turbine compressor fault.

The Hercules have suffered a litany of well-publicised woes.

In the two years ended March 1999, 86 Hercules missions were delayed because of malfunctions.

In July 2002 the air force admitted its No 40 Squadron was at crisis point when the five Hercules and the two Boeing 727s were broken down or undergoing service at the same time.

Deployments to the Solomon Islands and Niue were also delayed last year due to breakdowns.

Mr Mark says Labour inherited the under-investment of past administrations, but failed to understand that by mothballing its combat aircraft, it would lose expertise vital to maintaining what was left of its airpower.

"What makes our air force fleets unreliable is our inability to provide enough manpower to maintain them to the military standards required. As the age of the equipment goes up, the servicing schedules and the workload generated from those service schedules becomes more complex.

"We are suffering a shortage of experienced expertise. They are the very people we need to maintain an ageing fleet."

The Hercules has been an unqualified success story for manufacturers Lockheed and is still in production more than 40 years after it was rolled out.

The hero of the skies was developed in the mid 1950s during the Korean War when the United States Air Force needed a military transport capable of flying combat troops over medium distances and landing them on short runways.

The Hercules is anything but glamorous, with a fat fuselage sitting low to the ground and four propellers on straight wings.

The turbine-driven props enabled the Herc to take off on short runways, even rough dirt strips.

RNZAF spokesman Ric Cullinane defended the Hercules' reputation, saying New Zealand's five broke down less often than those from other nations.

During missions in the first Gulf War and in Rwanda, American commanders praised the New Zealanders' Hercules for moving more freight and people per aircraft than any other nation, he said.

"The headlines do not reflect the Herc's true reputation. When a Herc breaks down in an isolated area on a relief mission, for example, there are no spare parts readily available and they have to be flown in. That could happen to any nation's aircraft."

The many missions to the Antarctic last year went without a hitch.

Five years ago a New Zealand Herc won an aircraft maintenance competition in Britain -- and it was the oldest in a competitive field of 27 from 15 countries.

Said Air Marshal Adamson: "Unfortunately ageing aircraft break down more. And when you have to replace one of ours that's broken down, you have to fly in another one.

"When you've got only five, it's clearly not enough."

Obviously!:cool:

[CT7]

And where's No 2 gone...?

[BCF Breath]

#2
Jim Hopkins: Why little Chug is determined to be brave like Hercules
14.01.05 NZ Herald

Once upon a time there was a brave little aeroplane, who really wasn't very little at all. But he was very brave. He was so brave he would fly under bridges - upside down.

He was so brave he would fly very close to volcanic crater lakes - just to see if they were ready to burst their banks.

He was so brave he would even listen to the Minister of Defence when he came to the aerodrome to read a speech that somebody else had written. And that's really brave.

But the little aeroplane wasn't only brave. Wherever he went, he did his best. Or tried to. If he wasn't too tired. And he always helped his mummy and her partner, too, just like every good little aeroplane should.

Everyone liked the brave little aeroplane. They would wave whenever he was able to fly overhead, which he always did as quietly as possible in case they thought he was a speedway car. Or one of those horrid aeroplanes that bombed moths.

But people knew he wasn't like that.

"Hullo, Chug," they'd say as he chugged over their homes. "It's nice to see you're up and about today."

People called the brave little aeroplane Chug even though his real name was Lockheed C130 Hercules. But that was hard to remember so they named him after the sound his engines made - "chug chug chugga chugga rumbleclatter SNAP" - just before they stopped.

Which they did often. Chug had stopped all over the world. Sometimes he'd stop before he'd even got where he was going. And then stop again after he'd got there.

But he never gave up. When his friends (who also stopped a lot) muttered, "Maybe we should just stay on the ground", Chug said "Never". Because he was brave.

"If we did that," he said, "we wouldn't be part of a balanced, integrated, rapid-response force capable of fulfilling a vital non-aggressive niche role in any United Nations-sanctioned multinational peacekeeping operation."
(I really loved that bit.. :ok::O )
"Gosh, you really did listen to the Minister of Defence, didn't you?" sniffed his friends as they dipped their aching parts into tubs of hot oil to make them feel better.

"Yes I did," said Chug. "That's why I'm not sitting around feeling sorry for myself. I'm going to get some extra petrol in case there's an emergency. You know our motto - Per ardua, add gastra - you're in trouble if you don't fill up. Have a nice day."

And off he went.

He'd always been like that, ever since he joined the Air Force. In the old days, when they had jets, Chug used to race them across the sky, even though it made his rivets pop and his engines smoke.

And when the jets got tired, he would squeeze his hydraulic muscles as tight as tight to open the big doors under his tail so they could fly in and have a rest.

"Thanks," said the jets. "We needed that."

"You're welcome," said Chug. "Pop in any time."

"We will," said the jets and flew off to train with the Australian Navy

Nowadays, of course, they didn't train with anyone. They just stayed in a great big hangar all day with cobwebs on their tyres and fading "For Sale" signs stuck on their noses. Lots of people wanted to buy them but for some funny reason they never got sold. Chug just couldn't understand that.

Still, there was always plenty to take his mind off things (provided he wasn't being mended).

Sometimes he even went to Afghanistan but you mustn't tell anyone, boys and girls. We don't want the grown-ups finding out. Not when we're only supposed to be "fulfilling a vital non-aggressive niche role in any UN-sanctioned multinational peacekeeping missions".

One day, after he'd delivered his load of pineapple chunks and Marmite, Chug had asked the SAS soldiers (Shhhhh), "Why are you in Afghanistan?"

"We're not," they said. "And don't say we're here as the Government's Washington insurance policy, either."

"Why not?" asked Chug. "Because it's true," said the soldiers, shooting their guns so loudly it made his ears ring.

Just as they were ringing now. But this time it was the phone. "Hello," said the Air Vice Admiral (who looked after boats, too, because there weren't many planes left). "Chug, there's a big emergency overseas and we need you to get there as quick as you can."

Which wasn't very quick at all because Chug broke down twice. But eventually he loaded up with so many supplies that his tyres bulged and his floor creaked and his engines stopped three times on the way to where the emergency was.

"Keep lifting,"said the Air Vice Admiral. "You must keep lifting."

"That's easy for you to say," said Chug, who was waiting to get some new parts so he could fly one of our Important People to a nice dry hotel where they would meet other Important People while a photographer took lots of pictures of them with their nice dry cameras.

When the Minister of Defence found out that Chug wasn't lifting important cargoes or Important People he called an immediate press conference. "Gummint mindful," he said. " ... Inevitable consequence of rigorous operational schedule," he said. " ... Urgent review of fiscal parameters," he said. " ... No reflection on me," he said. " ... Finest Air Force in world," he said. " ... Lifting capacity enhancement upgrade programme already under way," he said. " ... Stop laughing," he said.

Then he wrote out a big fat cheque to fix Chug and his friends. And they all lift happily ever after.

Ah well, have a nice weekend!! ;)

[SawThe Light]

Interesting thread. You Kiwi guys shouldn't be so up-tight though. H*ll, it's not your fault that your successive governments seem to have chosen to ignore your defence requirements.

I don't suppose that any of you Kiwi PPruNe posters voted for these governments did you?

No matter, we are said to always get the government we deserve and if your president figures you don't need the defence system updated then you're stuck with it until the next election.

In the meantime, don't take things so personally, it's not your fault. Your defence guys seem to do a great job with the kit they have.

STL

[SsaKcaj]

From the title of this post:

Crack grounds NZ Hercules in Indonesia

I thought it meant that someone had smuggled Cocaine onboard a C-130 leaving indo.

[BCF Breath]

Thank you SawThe Light a well said post.

Interesting the comment earlier about needing more C-130's. The Kiwi's were offered 2 from the RAF already equipped with In-Flight Refuel/GPS etc for the small cost of 1 Million Quid ea. (+/- $3.2 mill Kiwi pesos) but the Labour Govt. said no.......

[CT7]

I see in todays (Sunday) Herald there is another article re the Hercs. ANOTHER (yup that's three (3) now) breakdown......

Something also about the Kiwi's putting up with the good humoured comments (re the Hercs) from our ANZAC cousins....

Good to see humour is still alive.

[Gnadenburg]

CT7

Country X in the South Pacific has a severe cyclone and RNZAF Hercules are the life saving capability in initial 48 hours. No humour if they breakdown here.

Country Y is in turmoil. Civil war and social anarchy. Police forces fighting the Army who are attempting a coup. The airport the only suitable evacuation point. It is not secure and a military style evacuation with Special Forces troops and tactical transports the only option. Public outcry, not humour here, if they breakdown and New Zealand lives lost.

Country Z a battleground for NZ soldiers caught up in Peacekeeping operations gone horribly wrong. NZ infrantry are besieged, short of ammunition and obviously without air support ;) . A military disaster occurs due a failure of air resupply efforts. No humour at the loss of NZ soldiers' lives; but plenty of political point scoring and shirking of government responsibility ensues-as per usual!

A country the size and wealth of New Zealand, is bludging by having a token force of 5 Hercules.

Helen Clarke has invested the money saved in scrapping the air combat wing, into 100 undeployable armoured cars. This has left New Zealand with a blunt knife defence force, only capable of fielding a handful of SAS commando's at short notice.

The mess Helen Clarke has left the defence force in, could possibly be addressed by basing a good percentage of the mechanized elements of the NZ Army in Darwin. Interoperability with Australian heavy armour units and closer to likely South East Asian trouble spots- as long as they borrow other countries resources to deploy!

[ZK-NSJ]

your basing all your statements on "what if's"
nz has responded quickly to past natural disasters in the pacific, when fiji or one of the other islands gets hit, they are one of if not the first on the scene,

[CT7]

Oh Gnadenburg get a grip!

I said nothing about, that the situation as a whole was humorous, just that at least the guys on the ground can actually have a laugh over this shocking display of inept Governing! (and maybe this will shock the Govt into doing something, about 5 years too late!) Maybe you had to read the article..

And that at least the ANZAC Spirit is alive and well in the region if not on this forum. As a guy with mates on those clapped out birds, I KNOW ONLY TOO WELL what they're up against.

Oh by the way, our population is less that half that of Sydney so I'm not sure where the size and wealth thing came from.
We know Comrade Helen is sitting on a $6.6Bil Cash reserve, but she'll probably give that to the dole bludgers to keep her socialist Govt in power.

If you re-read a few posts, a lot Kiwis agree (with you Ozzies) that this is not cricket!

Oh, and who, apart from the Yanks, deploy armoured vehicles by air. It's normally by sea. You going to fit those M-1s in a Herc?

5 Hercs is not enough. We know that. But.....
Given Australia has 20mill people and a land mass of 7.7 mill square Kms & NZ has 4mill and 270,000 sq kms of land mass (Ref:CIA fact book) 5 C-130s equates about right. I'm not disagreeing, just puting it in a different light.

You're preaching to the converted, but it's the other 3.999 million that has to see it to get this Govt out. Or we could ask the CIA..

[ZK-NSJ]

wernt the cia gonna "liquidate" david lange?

[Buster Hyman]

Ho Chi Minh, Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, David Lange...will the CIA stuff ups never cease?:rolleyes:

[Plas Teek]

Come on guys, you know how it goes.

US tries to influence country. Doesn't work.
US invade and then said country gets millions in aid..

[CT7]

As an example of how tight this Govt is, would you believe it, that the RNZAF/MOD has not paid the Herc Crews their overseas allowances from the East Timor Operations!!! (1999)

FACT!

[ZK-NSJ]

you forgot about castro buster

[Gnadenburg]

CT7

I like to echo the whispers from Australian Government circles- New Zealanders are making bludging a national pastime. They have done so for 20 years.

In a different light: % GDP spent on defence may well be more pertinent. You can not in any way compare the RAAF/RNZAF Herc force as a ratio of population or even national wealth. Do remember Australia maintains other expensive assets such as fighters, bombers, tankers, AWAC etc.

So, 5 Hercules from a peace loving and humanitarian orientated defence force, such as New Zealand, whose defence budget is not burdened by expensive assets such as the above, is bludging!

The reference to NZ Army units based in the Northern Australia a hypothetical hopeful- an example of how NZ in a small way can show commitment to it's stated policy objectives. The logistical benefits aside- saving borrowed allied ships, weeks worth of sailing time when sent to pick up NZ Army units.

Quoting the Spirit of ANZAC should be left to NZ politicians. A good card to play when you need to bludge defence resources off Australia.

[Austin Holed]

"New Zealanders are making bludging a national pastime. They have done so for 20 years"

And it's taken you Aussies 20 years to wake up to that?

Kapai! - youse bros are dumber than we thought;)

[ZK-NSJ]

the tallest poppy will be the first to be mown down........

[one ball]

NZ Army units based in the Northern Australia Wouldn't be very fair on the grunts.....

[Pass-A-Frozo]

http://www.chaser.com.au/teasers/0017/helenclark0017.jpg
:=

[CT7]

Gnadenburg
Try reading the posts AGAIN.
Most IF NOT ALL kiwis will agree with you!
I do.

But since you mention GDP on defence....
Oz is 6x (GDP) that of this PC freakin' backwater, and, since ours (def spending) is 1% therefore yours should be 6%, but it's 2.8%.

But I suppose that's because we've only got 1/3 of a defence (& I use that term lightly) force.

Pass-A-Frozo
Nice Pic (NOT) :yuk: of a very airbrushed foto.

[Buster Hyman]

:yuk: Now thats a face that could divert Meteors!:yuk: I wonder if she's related to Pauline Hanson?

[Pinky the pilot]

Pass-A-Frozo; Did you really have to!!!! As soon as the image of Comrade Helen came up on my screen the computer crashed, my glasses shattered and my coffee mug blew up!:{ :{
Mrs Pinky will have a total sense of humour failure if I can't clean the mess up!!:mad:

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

[ZK-NSJ]

"australia maintains assets such as fighter, bombers etc....,

how many of your f-111's re actually serviceable?, how much trouble have u had over the years with those

[Pass-A-Frozo]

how many of your f-111's re actually serviceable?, how much trouble have u had over the years with those

Well no-one will let you know that as it's all classified. However I think the only response is :

More bombers servicable than NZ :=

Oz is 6x (GDP) that of this PC freakin' backwater, and, since ours (def spending) is 1% therefore yours should be 6%, but it's 2.8%.

umm... that's not really how percentages work.
Here it is in monetary terms so you can get your head around it:

From 2003-04 budget speech:
Total defence spending will rise to $15 billion in 2003-04

While NZDF budget is:
The trend has clearly been a fall in funding from $1.7 billion in 1992/1993 (in 2002/2003 dollars) to the current $1.4 billion

That puts Aussie defence spending at 10.7 times NZ Defence Spending. (And that's without converting NZ pesos into Aussie Dollars!)

GDP Comparison:

(Source: World Bank)
13th in World @ Australia 518.382 US Billions
45th in World @ New Zealand 76.256 US Billions

Aussie economy 6.7 Times larger that New Zealand.

Does that explain it?

[CT7]

So what you're saying is that instead of spending $9.4B (1.4 x 6.7) you're almost at $15B. Which really isn't 10.7x more.

But hey, get used to it. Given the options I think this Govt will remain as there is no viable alternative to kick them out. UNFORTUNATELY!

[Pass-A-Frozo]

No, what I'm saying is simple:

Aussie Defence Spending is 10.7 times greater than NZ in Monetary terms. (and that is without converting NZ$ to AUD.)

Aussie economy is only 6.7 times greater than NZ.

If we were to MATCH the current level of NZ Defence spending we should spend only 9.38 Billion. We are spending 15 Billion, which means relative to economy size we spend 62% more. That is substantal.

I didn't say we spent 10.7 times more on Defence. I did say we spend more on defence however.

If New Zealand were to match Australia in defence spending they should spend 2.24 Billion NZD.

[ZK-NSJ]

gnadenburg,

last time i looked john howard was not OUR primeminister,
untill he is, australia or australians are in no position to comment on OUR defence force

[Pass-A-Frozo]

That's a good regional approach.

:hmm:

Bludging in regional defence.... :}

[Gnadenburg]

Helen Clarke's Defence Policy-

1- To defend New Zealand and protect it's people, land, territorial waters, EEZ, natural resources and critical infrastructure;

2- To meet New Zealand's alliance commitments to Australia by maintaining a close defence partnership in pursuit of common security interests;

3- To assist in maintenance of security in the South Pacific and provide assistance to our Pacific neighbours;

4- Play an appropriate role in the Five Power Defence Agreement ( NZ, Malaysia, Singapore , Australia, UK ).....

5- To contribute to global security and peacekeeping through participation in a full range of UN and other peace support and humanitarian efforts.

A medium lift transport capability is critical to all 5 listed policy directives of Helen Clarke. The RNZAF Hercules are too few and in desperate need of replacement.

With recent national embarrassment, the Herc force will probably get a nominal upgrading amidst politcal fanfare.

Beyond the scope of the thread, but to get an apprecaition of the degree of bludging by New Zealanders, let's look at their bold defence policy objectives versus cold, hard and expensive defence capability!

1- The NZ defence force meets policy objective number 1, at best, in the form of an expanded militia come police force. It has no modern war fighting abilities - peacekeeping orientated army, police air wing caspability from the RNZAF and a good medium range coast guard capability from the RNZN.

2- This objective has frustrated Australian Governments' for 20 years. The NZ military has wound down from being a very capable, well packaged, well trained and balanced defence force, into a defence force with rear echelon capability only ie : New Zealanders have little place on a modern battlefield apart from providing logistics for those who can!

The condition of the C130 fleet evidence that even the basic logistical support from the New Zealanders is under question.

3- The New Zealanders need the assistance of Australia for anything but the most basic of South Pacific operations.

4- There is no place for New Zealand here apart from a diplomatic role.

5- Poorly equiped New Zealand forces, apart from a platoon of SAS, should be kept out of harms way in peacekeeping operations. They are a hinderence on the modern battlefield and you only need note comments made from NATO generals in Kosovo.

The NZ defence force has no role to play in the stated, wider role of global security.

In summary, as evidenced by ZK- NSJ's post above, New Zealnders are isolationists but very parochial. They will use spin doctor policy to justify the path of least resistance and cost. However, will take a moral high ground from a vantage point of the far South Pacific and will play the ANZAC card from Australia, at some time in the future, to draw on our defence resources as they have neglected their own.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Well here's what a fellow Kiwi has to say about it :

Labour and Alliance ministers are on record as saying if the NZ Army needs air cover, "then the Aussies will provide it for us". This is regarded as bludging by many Australian commentators, and they are right

[Buster Hyman]

ZK-NSJ obviously is very touchy on this subject.

Whilst their is a fair degree of stirring going on, I think there is a relative amount of good reason for John Howard, and the proon punters over here to comment on NZ's defence capabilities. Understand though, that the abilities and commitment of NZDF personnel is NOT in question. It's the level of commitment by the NZ government to those very same people that is of greatest concern.

The ANZAC tradition is long & proud. As a "mate", I imagine we'd both extend our hands to help each other where necessary and, as "mates" we'll tell you when you (read Herr Clark) need to pull your weight, as I'm sure would happen if the boot was on the other foot (read Kyoto for example).

I think the issue is more about what your defence forces deserve in the way of support from your government.:ok:

[ScienceDoc]

Kids cool down and be happy that you are not having any substantial problems in your countries and around your countries..

Just my two cents from far far away...

[Kornholio]

In all seriousness, this sharing of defence assets and watering down of budgets is, as WE ALL KNOW, a precursor to the assimilation of Inn Zidd into Our Great Country.

Just telling it like it is.

Once the Australian public has grown accustomed to carrying their sheep-loving neighbours (eg: lashing out the dole funds, etc) the pace of the transition will increase until we have the same currency, flag and government and we will be free to plunder their negligible resources and the process will be complete. It's really only a matter of time.

Why bother to have TWO seperate defence forces???

[BCF Breath]

Did you realise that this wee country spends the same amount of $$ on the DPB as it does on Defence!!
And one of those figures will increase and one will reduce. No points on which!

[Gnadenburg]

Silberfuchs

Thanks for the clarification. There is so much anecdotal evidence of the demise of NZ's defence capability bandied about, lost in the details.

From an Australian perspective, the underfunded NZ defence forces still have some small capabilities useful in regional skirmishes. I would suggest they are the SAS and Hercules fleet ( flight ) - frigates too depending on who and where you are fighting.

The RNZAF Herc's could probably not be relied on now in a shooting match so we are left with the NZ SAS squadron.

The NZ SAS will have to be deployed by "borrowed" Australian platforms- helicopters, submarines, Herc's, landing ships etc.

Is it worth Australia, or other countries for that matter, using scarce resources to deploy NZ SAS at short notice to a modern battlefield?

Anecdotal evidence suggests NZ SAS were poorly equiped by Helen Clarke for their Afgan' deployment. There are rumours they dug latrines for German peacekeepers prior to borrowing suitable kit for their operational role.

If the NZ Defence force were to support it's SAS squadron in it's entirity, on a battlefield, I doubt that the sharp end would amount to more than a platoon or two, at any one time! Considering a good part of a SAS Squadron is made up of support capabilities.

For the millions spent on NZ defence, the real sharpend capability a handful of SAS - expanding in number but possibly diluting in capability. This due the imbalanced NZ Army, with it's undeployable armoured cars, will have inappropriate peacekeeping roles foisted on it's SAS.

Disband the NZ defence force. It is an embarrassment!

Let us see if total appeasement works in the war on terror! Because didn't the Kiwi's bring an end to the Cold War with their 80's stance against the US Navy?

[ZK-NSJ]

australian submarines...., they are almost if not a bigger joke than our hercules, can you actually take them underwater yet?

[Kornholio]

No need to go underwater. There's nothing left in Inn Zidd capable of threatening them during "War Games" so they cruise on top and sava da money.

Thanks Hillin!! ;)


The sooner we alamlgamte the sooner the kiwis can get rid of their funny Smokey-the-Bear hats...

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Actually speaking to some of the P3 boys the Collins sub is very capable. It's unfair to compare it to a nuclear sub.

[ZK-NSJ]

a very capable target

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Of more amusement is that the following countries have an air-combat / strike capability unlike New Zealand:

Botswana
Nicaragua
Eritrea
Guinea-Bissau
Mali
etc. etc.,

New Zealand sits proudly next to nations like Tonga who just do maritime surv / Transport. :rolleyes:

[ZK-NSJ]

botswana do have a strike capability, didnt you ever see "the gods must be crazy" when the guy throws a coke bottle out the window of a cessna

[Pass-A-Frozo]

They have CF-5A's delivered in 96.

[Gnadenburg]

It is interesting to list worldwide operators of F16's. Despite NZ not believing this capability warranted, many other nations do.

ZK-NSJ you jest surely! Helen has probably ( please confirm ) either ripped the guts out of your Orions or by refusal to upgrade, may well have stripped their ASW capability anyway.

But you want to talk sub's. OK.

Firstly, the Collins class was required to stalk, hunt and evade a sub-surface and surface enemy in a high threat, Cold War environment such as the South China Sea- China and Russian navies. Potentially, it could be more successful in some roles than the big hunter-killer USN sub's.

Most problems have been addressed. Regionally, it is debatable if any country could counter Australian submarines. In Timor Australian sub's at an elemental level of operational capability, played some small and undisclosed roles- special forces insertion, surveillance and deterrence.

SOME TIME IN THE FUTURE-

Riled by Western support for the corrupt government of Northern Kamaria, a previously unheard of terrorist group, with links to Jemiah Islamiah and with financial and spiritual backing from local religious schools, launches a terror offensive.

Soft Western targets the priority. Assasinations of expat workers leads to a well headed Travel Warning from Western governments. Targets have dried up.

The terrorist group looks to a developing Asian nation a few hundred miles to it's west - the country called Trulyasia . A haven for Western tourists and with common religious and ethnic links to Northern Kamaria.

Using fishing boats to position it's Jihad Warriors, the terrorist groups' strike is brutal and receives regional condemnation. Hundreds of foreign tourists are lined up and executed. The baulk are holidaying Australians and New Zealanders.

Regional governments, such as the Islamic Republic of Kamaria, say the action is piracy incident and not religious terrorism. An internal and criminal matter for the government of Northern Kamaria to deal with.

Western intelligence services ascertain the terror group has two coastal training bases in Northern Kamaria. The group has financial backing from religious schools, themselves financially backed innoccuously, by a Middle East oil kingdom.

The Australian and New Zealand government are mortified by the emergence of a new terror threat in the region and with their brutal success. The friendly but corrupt Northern Kamaria governent has a tenuos hold on power; it's military battling lawlessness and rebellion in the areas where the terrorists have their bases.

The Islamic Republic of Kamaria senses possible military action from Australia and diplomatically reinforces it's stance on a piracy incident and not terrorism. It cancels overflight rights for Australian and New Zealand miltary traffic transiting the region. Australian signals intelligence units in Darwin and ELINT aircraft warn the government of heightened Kamarian fighter activity.

A quick strike against terrorist instllations, by the long arm of Australia's defence force- tanker supported JSF's- could create more regional problems than it solves, as Kamaria has by it's actions and piracy stance, obviously refused overflight rights by Australian bombers to strike Northern Kamaria . The RAAF is ruled out from any reprisal strikes.

ANZAC co-operation is also impossible. The New Zealand Defence Force is unbalanced by complete block obsolence and investment in unsuitable resources.

Under the guise of a naval exercise, Collin's Class submarines HMAS Rankin, HMAS Waller and HMAS Sheean sail south from Sydney Heads, before under the cover of darkness sailing north to rendezvoux with a fleet oiler to refuel and pick up their cargo of SAS soldiers and Clearance Divers.

HMAS Shean and Rankin, with Waller as backup, position off the coast of the terrorist bases in Northern Kamaria. Depositing their commando's by night and by stealth. Both bases are surrounded by well equiped commando's, with night fighting capabilities and long range sniper weapons.

Sleeping terrorists fail to note the glow on the horizon, the quiet investment by Australia's government years before, the modification of Harpoon missiles with a land attack capabilityand GPS precision.

Before the missiles hit, informed by data link, the commandos open fire bringing sleeping terrorists into the open. The missiles hit home. SAS commando's move through the fire and debris taking no prisoners before using their zodiacs to return to the submarines.

Although the action is publically backed by Northern Kamaria post strike, regional nations such as the the Islamic Republic of Kamaria and Trulyasia express disquiet over Australia's offensive.

New Zealand, though recognised in the region as being militarily impotent, pushes for a United Nations joint effort and won't publically support Australia's pre-emptive strike policies. A United Nation's Joint Pacific Anti-Piracy Sub- Committe is formed and proudly chaired by former New Zealand Labour Party politicians.

It is a solemn day, at RAAF Base Darwin, a flight of Australian Hercules aircraft have repatriated the bodies of New Zealand and Australians who were victims of the slaughter in Trulyasia. New Zealand soldiers form a Guard of Honour, flown into Darwin on a chartered Air New Zealand aircraft. Politely declining offers by Australia to fly home New Zealand's dead, Helen Clarke quietly charters a freighter aircraft, hoping to avoid political embarrassment at the groundings of the RNZAF transport fleet - this time due a spare parts fiasco.

Australia is further frustrated, by the New Zealand governments refusal, to jointly pressure the Middle East oil kingdom against funding religious boarding schools in the region. New Zealand does not believe a hard line stance is warranted, concerned a backlash may jeopardise it's live sheep exports to the Middle East

[Buster Hyman]

Riveting...so, what happens next?

[Gnadenburg]

Buster

Don't know. Kiwi's won't stop bludging and :

"An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind" - Gandhi 1947.

[gsf]

Buster Hyman, if you find that rivetting can I recommend the story of the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus ?
Both available at an online book shop named after an South American river.

[BCF Breath]

ZK-NSJ you jest surely! Helen has probably ( please confirm ) either ripped the guts out of your Orions or by refusal to upgrade, may well have stripped their ASW capability anyway.

I can confirm and refer to page 3 of this post. Unbelievable!
I also remember a time within the last decade of an Orion being retro-fitted with a Link 11 system off a Frigate in dry-dock so it can talk to friendlies.

I can confirm that the NZ SAS is hampered by no air srtike capability at home to train with for FAC, however, gained a Unit Citation from the US for their high standard of operations in Afg. They are a VERY capable force. They do have all the best kit.

The Hercs did a fine job in Afg, but you here nothing about that...

I can confirm that the Army radios have been replaced and are top of the line, if not above the line.

Also that the Army now has air defence capability (somewhat lacking in Europe and causing the Army to be "Looked after" by allies).

New vehicles (not LAVs) are in service and soon to be fitted with 40mm auto grenade launchers.

We wouldn't deploy LAV's in airborne platforms. Although they ARE air transportable. (Akl to Ohakea...) I understand that the AusLAV's are similar in weight...

And remember that National did a lot as well to run down the defence...

[ZK-NSJ]

national ordered the f-16's just before the election that they knew they were gonna lose, problem instantly handed to the new govt who happened to be led by a professional protester,
the problem with the election this time round is that national is now led by a professionl bean counter (former head of the reserve bank) will he be any different, who knows, certainly couldnt be worse,
we must also remember in timor, there was one particular airstrip they aussies wouldnt touch in ther hercules, too short they said, then the kiwis went in anyway with a aussie crew along for the ride, we may not hve the best kit, but we get the job done

[Buster Hyman]

gsf Thanks for the tip! I've read the one about Santa, but I'm looking forward to grabbing a copy of the Tooth Fairy. Is that another story about Helen?

ZK-NSJ They probably didn't want to scratch those shiny NEW Hercs we'd just taken delivery of! Besides, your blokes were probably hoping for an insurance claim...do they have one of those "new for old" policies on the Hercs?;) :p

[Pass-A-Frozo]

there was one particular airstrip they aussies wouldnt touch in ther hercules, too short they said, then the kiwis went in anyway with a aussie crew along for the ride

Are you talking Suai (spelling may be out here!).?

[Point0Five]

national ordered the f-16's just before the election that they knew they were gonna lose, problem instantly handed to the new govt who happened to be led by a professional protester

You refer to the F-16 order as a "problem", I'm curious why? By all accounts I thought you kiwis were getting a pretty sweet deal.

[splatgothebugs]

The F16 deal was sweet, they were basically giving the damn things to us.

Like it has been said many times, proir to uncle Hellen becoming PM she was portesting down on the docks when the A4's arrived. She wanted to scrap the airforce for years and with National losing that election it just made life easy for her (him) :( .

Every country needs some sort of airforce especailly when it has agreements with neighbouring countries (oz) to protect part of there boarders. I was under the impression that Mr Brash publicly supported reinstaing parts of the airforce and honouring all deals to continue upgrading our under financed and over commited defence forces. IT IS YOUR VOTE!!!!!!!!!! (kiwis anyway

:) )

splat


:ok: :ok:

[NoseGear]

Never voted for the commie cow and never would:mad: While the general slagging of us Kiwis is rather irritating, I think a few posters are using the oppotunity to vent at NZ in general, however, tarring us all with the same brush is not even close to accurate. If you happened to notice, which I don't think you have, (which leaves ALL you Aussies open to some choice comments) you will have seen that every Kiwi agrees with you on the assessment that the government here has let things slip and that the equipment our services are left to deal with is substandard, there are no arguments against that claim. Yes, we need strike fighters, yes, we need a decent airlift and support capability, yes the Navy needs more ships and the Army needs better eqiupment. No, the current government wont do anything about it. I am not in the Air Force, but I feel for the guys and girls that are, they are doing the best job they can with some old and substandard equipment. Play the ball, not the man, you might get a better discussion. If you just want to slag off Kiwis, it may be time to grow up.

[Gnadenburg]

The F16's would not only have to be cheap, the Americans would have to subsidise their day to day costs aswell. Sort of what Australia did with the Skyhawks.

Despite an arms embargo, Indonesia maintains more operational Hercules than the Kiwi's. Just to stay on topic!

gsf

Was the scenario too unrealisistic? The capabilities beyond the ADF? Or are you just another very secure resident of the far South Pacific?

The region is not benign. The protagonists in the simple scenario could have been the Phillipines, Malaysia and Indonesia. The terrorist group the brutal but disjointed Abu Sayyaf and the "innocuos" funding from Wahabi followers in Saudia Arabia.

The capabilities are operational with the ADF. The ad hoc cruise missile of the latest Block Harpoon to be supplanted by the controverial longer range weapons under evaluation- these will equip naval frigates ( probably not the sub's to avoid upsetting the neighbours ) and air forces.

Possibly scenarios in our region are frightfully easy to create- total anarchy in PNG, coup or revolution in Indonesia, natural disasters in the South Pacific, tension in the South China Sea etc.

New Zealand used to have the ability to integrate useful assets into a coalition to combat threats. Every budget more capability is lost and little enhanced or replaced. They are bludging!

[ZK-NSJ]

last time i looked, indonesia had around 250 million more people than new zealand

[gn4p7]

Nosegear
I thing your’e wasting your time trying to reason with the likes of Gnadenburg, he is just using his posts to slag off kiwis and New Zealand, not just on this thread but others too. I’m sure he has never even set foot in NZ yet feels he can speak with authority about the people.
Most here agree the socialist NZ government is not pulling its weight on defence matters, and I for one would like nothing more that to see the back of them.
The NZDF needs assets to contribute to a combined effort, not just manpower, which means Aircraft and Ships. Notwithstanding the usefulness of the SAS, the Army successfully lobbied and appealed to labours peacenik ideals and shafted the other services. The Govt and some kiwis have a blinkered and rose coloured view of the world and their defence policy is a result.
All that is needed is an increase in defence spending to acceptable percentage of GDP, that is our obligation to regional security, end of story.
Don’t hold your breath.
:(

[Pass-A-Frozo]

gn4p7:

Sounds like you agreed with what Gnadenburg said, you just don't like someone else saying it :confused:

ZK-NSJ last time i looked, indonesia had around 250 million more people than new zealand

True however there economy is only 3 times the size, and their population is split over - over 17,000 islands. Their Herc fleets have been run down due to the arms embargo. Although I did read someone earlier saying what great servicibility their hercs had, they didn't look too crash hot when I saw them earlier this month.

One was flying with a collapsed Left Main Oleo, and they had quiet a few aircraft Canab'd. I'd hate to see the CFU list :ugh:

I'm not sure they have heard of pallets either :}