Flight International for better or for worse?

[flaps to 60]

Maybe its just me and im sure some of you will disagree. But has Flight International become both boring and bad value for money?

I remember the days when I would beat a path to my newsagents every wednesday to get the latest AIRLINE news and jobs from a much thicker lump of paper.

Now for £2.40 I get a wafer thin rag that sheds little light on whats happening with the airlines and gives less than one page to letters from its loyal readers. And they have reduced the quality of the paper on which it is printed.

FI quotes that they have over 300,000 readers, the vast majority of which I'm sure are pilots. So why don't they cater for the majority and leave the space and defence to more appropiate titles or at least cut down and cover more commercial pilot related topics.

I get more info once a month from the glossy yet informative Ailiner World magazine than four issues of Flight which I only buy now for the jobs section.

Anyone miss the old Flight or is it just me?
:mad: :( :mad: :( :mad: :(

[Bobby Guzzler]

Can't agree with you more! I think the only reason why Flight is still circulating is because of the aircrew notices in the classified section!

I personally think that airliner world is far better, especially the special issues like the latest one on the Airbus family! :cool:

[BEXIL160]

Flaps to60...

After 20 odd years I too have let my subscription lapse for exactly the reasons you've mentioned.

Skyport (free and out today BTW) offers more "airline news" and the best place for jobs, or at least early news of them, is right here, at PPruNe.

Rgds BEX

[bluff]

It may be a bit boring but I agree as well.
Why not change it to once a fortnight, get rid of space and defence, and reduce it's price to an affordable £1.50?
I know they would sell more copies, which would then generate more advertising revenue.

[Fright Level]

I always thought it was an oddly placed magazine. Although the market is flooded with mags of all descriptions, I'm sure there is room for an international pro pilots twice monthly rag with features that matter to us, advertising that targets pilots (pensions/cars/property etc rather than Ariane rockets).

August is traditionally a slim month, but the latest issue is shameful.

Rod

[GlueBall]

Change to Aviation Week & Space Technology for better up to date info. Go To:web page (http://www.awstonline.com) :cool:

[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: GlueBall ]

[FlightPlanMan]

QUOTE
FI quotes that they have over 300,000 readers, the vast majority of which I'm sure are pilots. So why don't they cater for the majority and leave the space and defence to more appropiate titles or at least cut down and cover more commercial pilot related topics.
UNQUOTE

Why do you assume that Flight International is solely directed at pilots and they're the largest reader group. There's a vast number of aviation profesionals who aren't pilots which have both a personal and business interest in the wide range of articles the FI publishes.

Do pilots really think they're the only audience for aviation news?
:eek:

[SOPS]

Yes I wont be renewing either

[LimaNovember]

FlightPlanMan,

On a scale from 1 - 10 (10 being top) I give you an 8 for your comment.

Having said that, FI must be the only magazine I start reading from the back page. I admit that the classified section is the most interesting with FI. And since Ariane rockets are way down on my list, may be I should drop FI and go for aviationjobs.com.

[airbourne]

I too have been very disapointed with the last 3 or 4 editions of FI. I wouldnt say they are thin, more like anorexic!!

Some of the other mags are good, but the problem is that when something big is on, they all cover it, and then do so for at least 3 months take for example the paris airshow!

David Learmount is a member of this board, maybe he could comment on what has happened with FI in the past few years.

P.S. Where do I get a copy of Skyport?

[flite idol]

Have to say I won`t be renewing my subs next time around. When it fails to show up I dont miss it, when it does I`m done with it in about three minutes. Interestingly I found a 1968 copy for 20p recently with a review of the new Jetstream 31, and have been reading it for weeks. It feels as though it was written by genuine aviation enthusiasts and not post grad buisness majors with a very minor in commercial journalism. The new format stinks but pales in comparison to the content. FI have indeed lost the plot.

[Wiley]

Have to say that I think flaps to 60 has a very valid point. For many years I had a subscription to ‘Aviation Week and Space Technology’, but dropped that in favour of ‘Flight’ because it was concentrating far too much (for my taste) on rocketry, space exploration etc rather than aeroplanes – sorry ‘airplanes’.

Now FI is going very much the same way. I seriously considered not renewing my subscription last time and think things will have to have changed rather dramatically for me to pay up next time.

It might have been that I was preoccupied at the time, but I scanned the last issue in a matter of minutes and didn’t find an article that I read beyond the first couple of paragraphs.

(I still always start at the back page though. It’s almost a ‘secret handshake’ in a newsagent, isn’t it? [“Ahh, another pilot!”])

[Count Acclaim]

For any of you struggling with the price of a subscription to Flight, don't forget that you get a discount if you are a member of the IPA.

[flaps to 60]

It seems that I'm not the only one who feels sick paying the cost of an overpriced pint, for something that a few of you have commented "takes a few minutes to read".

Even if (FlightPlanMan) in the unlikely event that the majority of readers are not pilots then they should stick to AEROPLANES and thier associated industries and not what the Hubble telescope is looking at or which missles are being developed.

Out of the sixty pages in this weeks issue over 25% are adverts which leaves less than 45 pages for "News".
And of those 45, 7 are on defence and space plus another 2 on the Balkans!!!!!!
I can go on but what it boils down to is about 1/2 a page useful to me.

Would someone at FI like to wheel out David Learmont from his "Brake In Emergency" glass box and have him answer the comments from the people who put the clothes on his back.

[sky9]

The trick is to buy Flight on a three year subscription (about £120 for Balpa Members - from memory)and share it with your mates - costs about 25p a week; about what it's worth.
Anyone remember Aeroplane? It was taken over by Flight in 1968 that was a proper Civil Aviation Magazine.

If Danny put a link to his own Job Site he would really clean up. Make Flight wake up - or buy up!!

[KADS]

Happy to see I am not alone, I'll be cancelling mine too. Totally agree on lack of service and value!

[Lou Scannon]

The description "Thin" somes "Flight" up perfectly.
Its thin on information for airline pilots and thin on thickness.

S'funny that I have been quietly moaning about it for months, but thought it was just my opinion. I certainly won't be renewing my sub when it expires,

[rover2701]

I go to WHSmiths read the back pages and put it back. its no good anymore lost the plot. :( :(

[LatviaCalling]

I think that EDDNR hit it on the head regarding the advetising. Is the target market a limited number like Sadam Hussein, or is it everyday people in the aircraft industry?

Once they get their marketing scheme going again in their advertising department toward their everyday target audience, then they will be able to afford more coverage of events and make the magazine slick again -- and probably more informative.

[flaps to 60]

Fellow disgruntled readers
I have just e:mailed this thread and the following message to Murdo Morrison the editor of FI.

Mr. Morrison
I thought you might be interested in reading this web page:

You might like to reply to your obviously disgruntled readers and explain why FI is now an expensive joke.

please answer the following.

1) How do you justify such an expensive price for 45 pages of dubious quality reporting?

2) Why has the quality of the paper used been reduced to toilet paper yet the price increase?

3) Why are you now reporting on what appears to be everything except you once core subject?

4) Why must the letters you receive which I'm sure must be in the thousands only get one page (sometimes less)?

5) How many pilots write for you on a regular basis instead of "journalist"?

6) Why should I bother to buy Flight International anymore?

Hopefully this will start the return to the good old days and I can walk expectantly to my newsagents once again

[I have control]

Uncle Roger.

There, that's something in Flight worth reading.

... but he is on holiday a lot

... and I can't think of anything else

[Scimitar]

Sadly, after over 35 years as a subscriber to Flight, my subscription will be allowed to lapse at the next renewal. I really believed that retirement from aviation would happen before I gave up on Flight but it really has become such a sad reflection of its former self.

How sad too that the Editorial staff, and in particular David Learmont, have nothing whatsoever to say!

[StressFree]

Scimatar,
I totally agree - why NO response from the team at FI, especially David Learmount?
Come on chaps give us some feedback, or are you all too embarrassed to reply on this forum. How can you ignore the comments here and the numerous intentions to cancel future subscriptions?
Maybe you are all too busy compiling another 10 page directory of APU fuel pump valve manufactuers........

:rolleyes:

[northern boy]

Agree with Rover.I read it in Smiths every Tuesday then put it back unless there is something really interesting in it.
Who else sets really p****d off when they insist on wrapping it in a plastic bag?

[Tug]

Like the rest of you I found better magazines with better articles so I didn't renew my subscription.

And they still keep sending it to me!!! Now that it's free I can safely say it's as dull a read as it was when I paid for it. Wont miss it. In fact I barely notice it when it does turn up.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Long, long ago the parent company's research showed people in suits placed and paid for the ads - the big glossy ones that pay the real money. The magazine is now for the widgets to airframes aerospace industry.

Awards are given to people in suits by people in suits and it keeps the advertising rolling in and the magazine in business.

It's been that way for a long time - it's just that us knuckledragging pilots take a long time to realise the odd flight review and Uncle Roger writing as if the whole magazine is still intended for pilots are thrown in as a sop to try and keep us on board a little longer.

Oh, and don't assume the editorial types like it anymore than you do - they face the same commercial realities and pressures as we bemoan in our world as pilots.

[flite idol]

Wise words PT. With that in mind I would like to change the last sentence of my first post, FI have not lost the plot, but merely changed it and we are no longer IN IT.!

[Monkey See Monkey Do]

flaps to 60,
For the same reason I have stopped buying (and sometimes just looking at) FI, I find I am strangely attracted to the fun glossiness of Airliner World.

FI seems to be more and more boring as time goes on, while at the same time having less and less in it worth reading (two separate statements I think).

So from no on, I think I will also follow this thread bandwagon and continue my recent trend reading AW for the more interesting articles.

Good point flaps260, I thought I was the only one.

Ez

[flaps to 60]

Bex

Does Skyport have a web site or is it the free news paper given out around Heathrow...cheers.

Ez
I think the comments from the others proves "We're not alone".

sky9
Good idea about Danny starting up a job website. It would be free, high quality and above all up to date.

What do you say Danny? I mean what would it take to set up. Most of the airlines recruiters look at this site, some even find out whats going on in thier own company on PPRuNe.

Think of it this way.
You will be saving us each the equivalent of some 50 odd pints a year by not having to buy the once excellent but now no more FI.

[ 11 August 2001: Message edited by: flaps to 60 ]

[Topsrider]

So you all just do what you have to do...
:cool:

[lame]

PPRuNe Towers,

Understand what you said, but surely these same suits will STOP advertising IF the subscriber/reader base falls significantly because people are no longer as interested in the magazine?

Anyway after being a subscriber for as long as I can remember, have just recently refused to renew my subscription, still getting reminders.......

Best regards,

"lame"

[BEXIL160]

Flaps to 60...(way too draggy for me BTW!!)

Skyport is indeed that free paper available at LHR (LGW has it's own weekly version), usually out on a Friday.

The LHR version always has some rant about Bus services or T5 on the letters page, but it DOES have a couple of pages on Airline News every week. And it's FREE. Don't have a copy with me at the moment so not sure about a web page.

Hope this helps

Rgds BEX

[Stage3]

The truth of the matter is that Flight has not been interesting for a very long time. It leans quite heavily towards big business. Roger Bacon stoppped being funny a while ago. There are currently no magazines in this country that cater for the average pilot. The average pilot nowadays flys a 737 or some other three letter number and does not care about he latest type of missile. This arhaic bias towards the military is as outdated as those posh English accents on old black and white newsreels.
Some

[addinfurnightem]

Another point to remember is that Flight have a lot of 'give-away'copies for the industries that the advertising is aimed at, it is aimed at major league sellers and buyers, not us, the flying.Ops/engineering fraternity, anymore.

Yes after 32 years of buying FI I think my money would be better spent on Airliner World. Does anyone have a website/address please? Thaks.

[Offchocks]

I have to agree with addinfurnightem....I've been buying Flight for 33 years, this last format change sealed it for me and I don't intend on renewing my subscription.
The magazine has been changed to a format that is not really aimed for the aviation minded but for the big end of town! :mad:
If the magazine continues in the manner that PPRuNe Towers suggests, then they will end up with a publication that just prints adverts and has few readers!
It would be good to see a responce from the magazine or even better, a change back to what it was 10 years ago!

[ 12 August 2001: Message edited by: Offchocks ]

[simon chitty]

I only read FI because of the back pages. Been doing that for years.

[Puritan]

Personally I gave up Flight 6 years ago, for all the reasons mentioned above, in favour of Airliner World.

Click the hyperlink for the website to Airliner World (http://www.airlinerworld.com)

FYI, and on the subject of advertising versus revenue, in order for Flight to be able to say to an advertiser that they have a circulation of such-and-such (which greatly influences the advertisement pricing / yield - about which PPRuNeTowers so succinctly wrote previously) they have to be able to prove it with some degree of certainty, and to that end there are organisations that independently verify that what they say is indeed true, e.g. The International Federation of Audit Bureaux of Circulations (http://www.ifabc.org) - it's amazing what you can find out on PPRuNe, ain't it ?!

Ps. Who else remembers that old joke of Q). Who're the only people who read Flight from the front ? A). BA Training Captains !

[PPRuNe Towers]

On the subject of nostalgia and the great days of Flight:

Is there anyone who preserved the wonderful line ad during the last great hiring boom in the late 1980's?

An utter classic windup wherein a pilot advertised for airlines to apply to him advising salary, conditions and enclosing photocopies of their last three year's accounts.

It's not an apochryphal tale told over a pint - I used to have the page torn out but somewhere, during some move or another, it went AWOL. I'd love to be able to pass it on to the huddled masses here. :D :D

[Blacksheep]

If Flight International has indeed retargeted itself at big business then its on a hiding to nothing. Big business reads Air Transport World - free to the selected and chock full of interesting airline related stuff.

The only part of F.I. that sells copy is the job pages. Its just a matter of time before it peters out and joins John Bull, Woman's Realm and the other worn out magazines that couldn't keep up with a changing world. We were most amused over here at the Flight International Awards when Brunei Shell Aviation won an award - presumably for its hugely successful downsizing operation? :rolleyes:

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[Kermit 180]

Aeroplane Magazine is still circulating. Lots of mags have gone the way of FI. Shame. Give us info we want to read, not info that will be useful to our great-grandchildren when they fly their stratospheric rocket liners.

Kermie :mad:

[Bokkerijder]

Yep, I´m also very disappointed with FI. They keep on filling issues with all those stupid directories like the :

 Gas Turbine directory . Yes, I happen to need a gas turbine for my bicycle…
 Maintanance directory. Let´s face it, if you run an airline and need to pick up a copy of FI to see where you can do a C check for your B737, something is seriously wrong !
 Militairy trainer directory. Sure ! I´m in the market for a military trainer. The politicians (who make the descisions) all read the FI !
 World Rocket directory. Does anybody really care ?
 World Fighter directory. I can barely afford the lease on my BMW…!

Etctera……the list goes on and on. The only directory I like is the Airlines directory (although the JP Airlines Fleets is much better and accurate) and the Simulator directory.

For the rest, very little in depth news. The crisis at Swissair is a perfect example. FI basically reports the same stuff that I can watch on Swiss TV or CNN one week before the FI falls into my mailbox.
I fly for Crossair (F/O Saab 2000) so I was expecting/hoping for some real substance.

[flaps to 60]

I have just gone through Septembers copy of Airliner World and the stats shows FI up for the bad value and poor content that it really is.

If you saw the figures from my previous post and compare them with the following from AW.

First 19 pages world news broken down by region with only one advert.

Total No. of pages 81 on a very high quality paper and excellent pictures.

Of those 81 pages only 10 are adverts and classifieds.

Three pages given to readers comments and letters.

The magazine plainly says on the front cover "The Global Airline Scene", and thats what it sticks to.

Have a look at www.airlinerworld.com (http://www.airlinerworld.com)

BTW Bex I dont know of any aircraft with 60 deg but it just sounded good in one of my weaker momments.

[Hudson]

Flight International is damnably expensive in OZ due to low Aussie dollar. Certainly there seems to have been a steady decline in interesting articles in the magazine. The Roger Bacon page is no longer witty and the Letters page has no punch anymore. After my FI subs run out, I will try AOPA (USA). Now that's always got excellent technical articles for aviators.

[Fuel to Noise]

After a 3 years subscription I did not renew because I was bored of the overhleming military and sapce section.

As many others I used to look at the job pages first and most of the rest was of minor interest.
The jobs are posted on the internet, the ad's I really do not need and for the rest there are other better magazines.
:D

[BEagle]

Agree totally that 'Flight' has gone right down the gurgler of late.

It has but one use - and that results purely from the fact that it now has absorbent sheets!!

However, there should be more than just Air Transport content in the magazine. Aerospace and Defence related news and comment does have a place - it's not just a magazine for job-hunting wannabees and union agitators!

Now - where've I put my copy of that riveting 'World Simulator Directory' edition..........

[ 12 August 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

[airbourne]

I just remembered that I renewed my subs at the start of June so thats me locked in till next year.

Apart from that we have yet to receive a reply from the boys in Flight about the recent comments.

Other mags I pick up when ever I can:

airliner world
airways - www.airwaysmag.com (http://www.airwaysmag.com)
Air international - www.airinternational.com (http://www.airinternational.com)

[Rommel]

Gentlemen and Ladies,
Agree with all of the above comments,but could someone enlighten me on whether any of the other mags have the latest "jobs" section,this is FIs strongest attraction for most of the commercial pilots out there and those aspiring I assume.?

And where for example do our N.American brethren obtain their job info,is it FI too?

I too read FI backwards,have done for 20 yrs,but I find my weekly read is over by TOD on a short sector,however I renewed for 3 yrs last year,so Im stuck until 2003.

Answers on a postcard please.
Rommel. ;)

[Offchocks]

Isn't it amazing, nearly everyone mentions the back pages in FI with regards jobs. I too have looked there, but I have just realised that in 33 years I've never actually applied for a position advertised!
My three airline jobs have come by either letter writing or being in the right place at the right time.
So one could ask, what are the FI back pages really worth?

[Seloco]

To Flaps to 60:
I'll bet that the good old Comet had a 60 degree flap setting (in fact it used to look closer to 80!); any Nimrod drivers out there that could comment?
As for FI, I reluctantly let my subscription lapse recently after about 20 years 'cos it really wasn't worth it any more. I've bought the odd copy since but it just seems to get thinner and thinner. Sad, really sad.

[Hogwash]

Yep! Let mine lapse 5 years ago 'cos I'm not a rocket scientist!

So many mags out there for PILOTS that do the job nicely.

[David Learmount]

Fellow PPRuNers

Sorry I took so long. I've been on leave and nowhere near a PC.

No excuses here, just some information.

1. PPruNer comment: Flight is very thin.

You're right, at the moment it is. It was my reaction on picking up a copy when it arrived in the office from the printers this week. Sorry! But at this time of the year it always is. All of the media are faced with their "silly season", and this is ours. Lots of industry people are on hols, including the advertisers.

2. PPRuNer comment: it's best read from the back.

Pilots have said that since Pontius was flying, and from the pilot's point of view it's a logical way to read the mag - providing you get your money's worth by reading what you want from the rest after checking what the job market's like.

3. PPRuNer comment: it's a lousy pilots' mag except for the job ads.

I disagree, but I would wouldn't I? Actually Flight, since founded in 1909, never was ONLY a pilot's magazine, it has always been an aerospace industry magazine which writes for pilots as well as many others. Our readers include pilots, aircraft designers, aircraft manufacturers, aircraft engineers, maintenance organisations, people from the systems, avionics and aviation service industries, air traffic controllers, safety regulators and rulemakers (CAA/FAA/AAIB/NTSB etc all over the world), people running organisations like ICAO and IATA, people who run airports, and aviation lawyers, aviation insurers, aviation medics, aviation psychologists, academics, students .........

I don't suppose that impressed too many PPRuNers if they are dyed-in-the-wool pilot-only pilots, but a lot of pilots want to know what's happening in their industry, why it's happening, what kind of flight deck kit they're likely to face when they convert onto a new aeroplane type in five years' time, whether their company looks as if it's going to be around in five years' time and if not, who is etc etc.....

I suspect that the best I may have done here is to reassure you, by finally coming onto the thread to answer you, that we actually -

a) read PPRuNe religiously

b) care about what you think and say,

c) and do get stung somewhat by your comment, especially when you're right (eg: "Flight's very thin at the moment") and also at other times when some pretty rabid criticism is actually wrong.

We do our best to write for pilots, but not ONLY for pilots. If you want to know where you, as a pilot, fit into the grand aerospace scheme of things, we're a pretty good read.

And be assured, in a couple of weeks you'll start getting the fat issues again. If you still subscribe by then!

David L

[David Learmount]

... oh yes, I knew I'd forget someone. To add to our list of readers before my Military pilot brethren (how could I forget them, I woz one) target Flight HQ with a smart bomb, we've also got to try to please everyone who manufactures, flies, operates, delivers, fires or drops serious defence devices ...

David L

[rover2701]

David Learmont you have not said anything that has been said before. People, Pilots, Engineers, Designers et al all feel that they are being bypassed by Flight. Please comment and rectify. :D :D :D

[ 13 August 2001: Message edited by: rover2701 ]

[flaps to 60]

David
Thank you for your two witty and considered replies.

But as I'm sure you know I would like to take you up on a few points.
To your point:-

1) I dissagree with your "its that time of the year comment.

Were the industry big wigs on holiday on....

a) 6-12 Feb 2001 (up to S & L) 56 pages.

b) 10-16 July 2001 45 pages

c) 26 Sep - 2 Oct 2000 58 pages

Should I go on?

What was also immediatly aparrent was the vastly lower quality paper on which the latest copies were printed on compared to not so long ago.

2)I dont disagree with except that once you've found your perfect job in the back you should be able to find out about that comapany in the front. As for "get your money worth".
In less than one year you increased the price by 9.1% (way in excess of UK inflation) and used cheaper quality paper with less pages!!! What gives?

3) It is a lousy magazine. What "We" and that encompasses everyone, is REAL news, GOSSIP even, something that captures my imagination and tickles my fancy. What you appear to have done is aligned yourself with the suits and not the shop floor where the majority are.

Have you had a look at Airliner World or some of the other mentioned publications? They have a youthful charm that reminds me why I'm in this game. As I said at the begining of this thread "I used to walk expectantly to the newsagent". Now I pick up FI because I want an airline job and unfortunatly your magazine is the only real contender.

You also said that you do read PPRuNe well you obviously have not read all of this thread.
If you had you would not be trying to justify your magazines demise below mediocrity but apologising while promising things will improve. Not one person has come to FI's defence does that not tell you something.
What about the many people who have either cancelled or will cancel thier subscription does that not frighten your shareholders.

Point b) If you care about what we think and say Then do something about it.

I sent two e:mails of this thread to Murdo Morrison your editor why has he not had the courtesy to reply? Why hasn't he?

I await another witty and considered reply.

[ 13 August 2001: Message edited by: flaps to 60 ]

[John MacCalman]

In defence or should that be defense of FI it is still the most trusted and respected source of accurate aviation news.

I can understand the feelings of many pilots who feel it might not meet their needs however if you want facts, FI is the place for them.

The truth is out there.

[mallard]

David, people in your business seem to move on at regular intervals, not because they are experts in their field but because they are expert editors.
You have been there for years and you have clearly read the disparaging remarks about FI.
I would be talking about years if I say I can't remember the last time I could even be bothered to lift the mag out of the rack.
You know your business far better than I do but my advice would be to take on another publication before the pack of cards comes tumbling down.
And, I agree, it seems like a century since Roger Bacon was remotely funny.

[David Learmount]

Thanks for the comments. And thanks for the invitation to combat the antipathy with wit. I think I'll politely decline the challenge on the grounds that it would get me nowhere.

Incidentally, Murdo (the editor) is away at the moment. Doing his civic duty on Jury Service, would you believe. Hence the non-replies. But I'll make sure he gets a full printout of this thread when he gets back.

Allan Winn, former editor who is now Flight's publisher, is in and following the comment daily.

You never know, this onslaught might make a difference.

I must take issue with one point, though. So we "align ourselves with the Suits", do we? I can assure you that we don't align ourselves with any group within the industry. We just serve the aerospace industry as a whole by reporting news, facts, analysis, and providing directories.

If your soul is lifted by Earnest K. Gann, St Exupery and Gillespie Magee Jr and you love racy anecdotes about real flying and pictures of beautiful aeroplanes, so do I, but that's not my "day job". Good aviation books and magazines which concentrate on the joy and beauty of flying look after my needs there, and it's clear that others of you have found magazines you like.

And at Flight we should deal in fun, rumours and gossip, should we? Forget it! PPRuNe does it much better.

I remember reading Flight avidly when I was a wannabe back in the late sixties, and the mag was much the same then in what it tried to do as it is now - it just employed the style of the time. It never was a magazine for the aviation enthusiast, it always was one for aerospace professionals, including pilots. It was staffed then by aviation enthusiasts, but I can assure you that today we still are.

I admit that Roger Bacon was more to my taste then than he is now, but that may be a function of my age (54 for those who care).

At Flight we know that we do please some of the people some of the time, and although doing the converse is acknowledged as impossible, it doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Keep bashing, PPRuNers. We'll keep listening and developing. What more can I say?

David L

[Kermit 180]

At the end of the day we the consumers will make the decision to buy or not to buy FI. I wont be.

Kermie

[Crash Barrier]

and another thing Mr.L, I suppose in the next issue it will be "where to buy the cheapest used rocket from Russia" or "Glider maintenance directory"
Never addressing the real issues facing the aviation industry. Look at the Wannabe forum.
Commercial training going up the spout with 2 large school going bust. General aviation and training dying a slow death. Why? because it has all been cocked up by the CAA.
Toilet paper type quality of mag!!!!!!!

[rigidity]

I agree. FI has "lost it" in recent times. Just decided not to renew my subscription. I did actually try a little while back, but they seemed to make it a lot more difficult than it should have been and then I suddenly realised that I barely read it anymore anyway.

I do think that Airliner World has some pretty good stuff in it, but tend to feel that it is aimed more at the spotter than the professional; whereas Flight is aimed at the later.

Personally I prefer the Transair catalogue - damn fine read!! And its free. :p

[Luke SkyToddler]

Well I reckon Flight is still a damn fine read and worth every penny of my discounted IPA member's subscription.

Sure, I don't really give a monkey's about the occasional directories telling me where to get my 767 simulator serviced, but I honestly like reading all the aviation and air transport business sections, even the military and space flight stuff, it gives you so much more of a wide view of what's going on in the industry than certain other magazines mentioned here which have more appeal to spotters and 'boys own' types than aviation professionals. The Airline directory on its own has got to make up for some of the thinner issues, and I can't say I've noticed any particular drop in the quality of paper employed. (I did like the old typeface better though ...)

And obviously, the back pages pay for it all many times over :D

I don't think the quality of the magazine has dropped in the last few years, what's closer to the truth is that we've all become spoilt, the internet in general and PPRuNe in particular has pretty much stiffed all the paper publications when it comes to up-to-date air transport information, we already know about what's going to be in the magazine before it hits the doorstep now.

Keep it up Mr. L., you're doing fine by me.

[flaps to 60]

David

Once again I have read what you've said and come away dissapointed.
Looking between the lines I think that FI has taken a bloody nose and is still wondering whats just hit it.

Though I dont expect you to stand up and say FI's wrong.....sorry! I do expect as a valued customer "we have heard you and ARE doing something about it". Not, "this onslaught MIGHT make a difference".
It should make a difference, read the replies again, we are not happy with FI and customers are leaving you in droves.

We dont want racy anecdotes,pretty pictures etc we want real news. Something that makes Flight hard to put down and not be the sad reflection of your former self.

You say that you have always written for the entire aviation industry. This is true but the writing and content of the past were of a far higher quality than today.

This thread has never been about pilot versus the rest of the industry just that FI should be more balanced and more interesting.

You have yet to reply to peoples comments on the poor quality of paper used and inflation busting price increase.

Read Kermit 180's comment, very telling on your customers feelings and actions.

David you have a golden opportunity to make FI great again, because now the people have spoken don't waste it.

Ps It's not all doom and gloom the World Wide Airline Directory is excellent and eagerly anticpated.

To rigidity
I agree Airliner World is a little spotter like, but hopefully it will continue to grow into the type of magazine that FI used to be but better value and quality.

I for one will also be urging them to start a jobs section in which case FI won't even be worth starting a fire with.

[ 14 August 2001: Message edited by: flaps to 60 ]

[InFinRetirement]

Sadly, for me that is, I remember reading Flight in the war years. Can't remember if it was actually produced in it's current frequency, but it was a good read. Well the pictures were anyway.

After the war I started to buy it regularly at about tuppence or maybe sixpence, but I kept on buying it up to about 1996. Quite a long time when you think about it. Some of those copies might have been collectors items. Hey I could have raised some money for the fund!!!

However, Flight has been a changing mag for ALL of that time and quite simply, it keeps up with the immense changes in all of the industries. You would surely expect it to wouldn't you. I cannot ever re-call it being a magazine just for pilots, but I can re-call it being much more interesting than it is today. But in it's defence, that is probably because it covers all the aspects of flying from flying cars to the very latest in normal take off run shuttles of the future, and it HAS to cover those things that David listed. It would not be doing a service to ALL it's readers if it didn't.

I don't read the back pages anymore (sad again) - there is no need to but I remember reading the sports pages of newspapers first too. I even read who-dun-it books from the back sometimes! :eek:

No, I think Flight is OK. It won't suit everyone but that's the way it is now. But my best 4 weeks are still the superb, well researched Airline's Directory. Especially since I do a bit of consultancy work now and again.

It's your privlege to knock Flight of course, but I would suggest that you are fair and choose the right reasons for doing so.

Long may it live, at least until it is a 100 years old in 2009. If I am still alive I would love to be at the party!

Have you got a diary to cover that D???

[Katy]

David L

I couldn't help reading the previous posts without going foraging in the loft to find some old 'Flight' magazines my father gave me a couple of years ago.

These make interesting reading, and reflect a time when the British aircraft industry was more varied than it is at the moment.

However, nostalgia apart, a few statistics by which to compare the present editions of FI.

3 September 1954: special edition featuring Britain's Aircraft Industry

over 200 pages in total (although the page numbering system seems to have a mind of its own!)

First 82 pages - adverts
Last 46 pages - adverts

6 pages of 'Classifieds'

Profiles of aircraft, engines and armaments, including drawings and photographs of current British aircraft from the Slingsby T.21B Sedburgh glider (my first solo) to the Avro Vulcan.

A little later:

10 September 1964: Farnborough report edition

Still the strange page numbering, however well in excess of 100 pages.

First 24 pages - adverts
Last 12 pages - adverts
4 pages of 'Classifieds'
3 pages of Letters
'World News' - 2 pages!

Profiles of aircraft and test pilots constituted the 'meat' of the edition.

What does all this prove. Not a lot really I suppose.

'Flight' has been full of adverts for the last half-century as far as I can see. The magazine now reports on global issues rather than (primarily) national ones. Experienced pilots are still advertising under 'Situations Wanted'...............

Some things never change - except the price two shillings and sixpence (twelve and a half pence in new money) in 1954.

Yes, as a professional pilot I will renew my subscription to FI (which has just landed on my doormat this morning, by coincidence).

If I was a 'spotter', with all due respect, perhaps Aircraft Illustrated might be more appropriate.

However, it must be said that I too was disappointed how thin the recent magazines have become during the summer period. Surely it would not be difficult to think ahead and have some articles in reserve to include when current reports are not available due to the annual leave of your reporting staff.

David, I do hope you take some of the points raised by other Ppruners on board. For my own part I always find readers' letters and flight test reports of interest - but then in my PPL days I subscribed to 'Pilot' and 'Flyer'. Maybe articles aimed at the commercial market in the format of some of the articles contained within these magazines might be a suggestion.

You can not please all of the people all of the time - but you can give them value for money!

Regards

[Tinstaafl]

The lack of depth of technical information is what annoys the hell out of me.

The magazine seems to target professionals within the industry, but the technical level of information is more fitting of a gossip magazine.

When an article says that xxx company has made changes to improve performance/meet certification requirements or whatever then please tell us what changes were made and how or why they cause the desired effect.

Another peeve is the use of large pictures or graphics that convey minimal information. They just waste space that could have been better used. I can only presume they're used to 'pad out' the magazine.

I too doubt that I'll renew my subscription when it lapses.

[ 14 August 2001: Message edited by: Tinstaafl ]

[sidonia]

@David L.,

thank you for replying, other guys in your position probably would have ignored all those comments.

Generally I thing that our industry is highly involved with politics, therefore it could be a problem for you to cope with a lot of different interests, which in turn could have changed the face of FI.

Anyhow, personally I would prefer a weekly edition of Airline Business, containing some parts of Aircraft Commerce and the civil parts of FI, mainly because your not just a driver in today`s environment, but also a manager as well.

And , of course, this mag shouldn`t carry these prohibitive pricetags of most of our industries publications........

And , by the way, it is definitly a strong violation of the internet`s spirit not to provide information on a webside for free!!!

Regards, s.

[tilii]

In my never humble opinion, Flight International is now, and always has been, an amazing publication in that it has consistently reflected the current state of the aviation industry, including its pilots, to absolute perfection. :D :D :D

[airbourne]

Eh... Which war IFR????? :) :) :)

[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: airbourne ]

[v3]

Flaps to 60

Flight is on the internet as well.
Job adverts. are updated frequently.
Now, after you have the dream job would
you continue to buy the magazine?
Flight needs to appeal to many readers
not just the one looking for pilot
emploment.
60 flaps sounds excessive

[Blacksheep]

I'm not a pilot, (I'm George Brownfag the old aeroplane basher from Potters Bar that Roger Bacon occasionally spoke to when he was feeling sympathetic) but I'm also disappointed by Flight these days. If you're in the aviation business its compulsory reading, even if its someone else's copy. But as someone already pointed out, there are lots of controversial things happening in aviation these days and they are seldom mentioned and never debated. 8.33 Khz - necessary or not? RVSM/RNP in Europe - are there better ways of improving traffic flow?, ETOPS - has it gone too far? Precision RNAV how the hell are the little people going to pay for that? Why are all the ATC improvements aimed at the airlines instead of the controllers? Will we get a discount on ATC fees? No-one is mentioning these sort of things in any of the aviation magazines. Well, mentioning them perhaps, but not contributing to debate.

JARs! Now there's a subject that beggars description. Typical European b*llsh*t with different countries adopting different standards according to their own liberal or literal interpretations of the rules.

Come on David, let's see Flight coming down off the fence and contributing to controversy, not just in the editorial (Yes, I read the editorial right after the jobs pages!) but in the rest of the magazine. What is wrong with Flight is that it reports facts; we already know most of the facts, good reporting looks under the surface. There be slugs down there!

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[Chimbu chuckles]

Now I'd read that!! An Aviation Mag that reports,in a none partisan/PC, warts an all manner on what's going on in this industry.

Truth is I buy very few aviation mags these days unless I spot one in the news stand with a really interesting article, which is rarer as time goes on.

Maybe it's the cynic in me but many seem to be written by 'enthusiasts' who have a hard time seeing past the 'shiny new paint job' or 'flash gadgetry' or who have little/no real day to day experience of the subject matter with which to see past the BS being spun them by the salesman/Airline management beancounter/politician/General or whatever. Or perhaps they don't want to risk not being given anyore interesting assignments if they aren't always flattering of the subject matter.

I stopped buying FI for all the reasons stated above.
I stopped buying 'Flying' because it seemed pitched at PPLs and there are only so many articles you can read about 'Hard IFR in a C210' before it gets old, although I ALWAYS enjoyed Len Morgan.Is he still around?
My company gets B&CA/Professional Pilot/AC flyer delivered and that in combination with Flight Journal occasionally and American Bonanza Society(I have one)does me for all I need. ABS even have their own, much older, version of Len Morgan to read but at 94 he's probably not going to be around a helluva lot longer, and B&CA have Torch Lewis.

There's a lot of competition out there for the advertising buck so if a Mag doesn't reach it targeted audience it won't survive, perhaps that's why FI is still around or perhaps that's why it's getting smaller and less relevant(to pilots).

Chuck.

PS I have to wonder about a mag so full of advertising and yet so relatively expensive :(

[The Guvnor]

I'll glance through Flight International in WH Smiths but only buy it if there's something of particular interest in it.

On the other hand, I'll buy Airliner World as soon as it comes out!

In my view, the only decent aviation mag in the RBI stable at the moment is Airline Business, which is well researched and written - but definitely not available at WH Smiths!

At one point I subscribed to the RBI online data service Air Transport Intelligence (www.rati.com) but it's grossly overpriced for what it offers and much of the information is out of date, invalid or downright wrong. Speednews and Avmark Newsletter tell me what's going on, whith whom and with what for very much less money!

[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]

[Ace Rimmer]

Katy : the thiness or otherwise of a mag is usually dictated by the number of ads in it. At Rimmer News we have a 60/40 ed/ad ratio for example. Therefore fewer ads thinner mag - it's that simple (costs more to print big mags you see) Why even as I write the next edition of Rimmer News is with the printers - and I'm going to be in trouble with the beancounters (again) because of being "ed heavy". Even when the big editions are going to press (for us its Paris Farnborough and October - for the European Amagamated T/P Moosejet and JungleJet operators pow wow) it generally a case of "what are we going to cut if the ad blaggers haven't quite done their stuff.

[mattp]

My comment is that if it's the classifieds or indeed jobs that people are inetersted in you can find an excellent selection at
http://www.aviationjobsearch.com

[Lee]

Flight International in my opinion has gone to the dogs. I remember in the late 70s and early 80s, Flight International was worth a buy. But not anymore. I have stopped by subscription 10 years ago!

[Pete Otube]

Surely the enjoyability of 'Flight' is inversely proportional to the amount the reader paid for it. I'm very happy with the office copy.

[sky9]

David

Since you appear to be monitoring this thread, I am curious. What code is it that other pilots type in, press the "Go" button and "then sit back until they taxied the plane off the runway in California"
Yesterday I sat on the end of the runway trying to "hack in" without any success, and couldn't even find the "Go Button.

In the end I had to do it the normal way. What am I doing wrong?
Can a "Safety Expert" help please.
:D :D

[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: sky9 ]

[Cyclic Hotline]

I have had a mail subscription to FI for 20+ years. It continually goes up in price, but sadly seems to come down in content.

In every issue, I can always find some extremely interesting snippet of information that I would not learn from any other source. I read just about every article within the magazine, on any topic, and generally find them of considerable interest. The cross application of technology and technological development is a definite value. FI has good contacts within the various organisations they report on, which explains their ability to provide accurate and informed reports that are beyond the scope of general reporting.

I do however temper my comments with the observation that there are many topics of limited interest or detail. FI is not the essential reading it once was for developments in the industry. As someone who has spent their career far removed from the mainstream of the aviation business, I used to have to carefully read every issue to have any hope of following industry developments and opportunities - now I often find a large number of unopened FI's laying in the mail! They are still valuable reading when I get around to them, just not essential reading anymore.

Each year at renewal time, I seriously consider the neccesity of renewing. Perhaps it may end with this current subscription, I'm not sure.

I only commented on this topic, because I just recieved a subscriber survey from FI in the mail. Asking a few pertinent questions about me and my connection to Aviation.

Only problem!
After I have taken the time to complete the form, they want me to pay the postage to mail it back to the UK!

I would guess that these surveys do not get a very strong response - now you know why! ;)

[Analyser]

I still prefer reading Airliner world to FI,especially when they throw in the specials like the current Airbus Edition

[StressFree]

David L.,
As a very regular ppruner I really appreciate your replies, its good to know that this forum gets your attention. The truth is however that FI has really become a 'nothing' mag. You cannot of course please everyone but all these endless directories of useless information...............
Magazines are for reading so how can you read all these pages of tedious information?
If you only sold the back few pages I doubt that your readership would go down; isn't that a very sad indictment of a once great magazine?
I don't want to sound like a complaining old git but I would really like to know what the future holds for FI?
Thanks in advance for your reply.

:)

[addinfurnightem]

Well David, if there is a genuine possibility that things in Flight might change can you start by using feet as a measurement of altitude/height and knots as a measurement of speed please? No harm in using the metric measures in brackets - if you have to show them at all.

Cheers, Addin.

[jan alblas]

FlightPlanman, Sops, Cyclic Hotline and other
( paying) subscribers to Flight International
( FI ).

I cancelled my ( company's )paid subscription over 6 years ago when I discovered that FI was ( and still is ) distributed at no charge ( FOC ) to hundreds of pilots at Indonesian operators/airlines,some of which are no longer in business and/or who's pilots are no longer on their payroll.
Hence,piles of FI issues are dunped into the wastebaskets of Indonesia every week..........

I presume that the same "policy" is applied to other developing countries,where hundreds of aviation personnel receive their weekly issue "with the compliments" of the (G)Reed
boys at Quadrant House.

The reason (G)Reed is so generous is simple.
In order to impress the advertising agencies of Boeing, Airbus etc.( who are paying top dollar for having the privelege to advertise in FI ), they distribute a "so called" media kit to these agencies which shows a impressive readership profile
broken down by continent, business / industry
and job level which includes the civil / military "decision makers of the industry".
The circulation of FI is ( supposed to be )
controlled by BPA International publication auditors who then confirm that the these numbers are correct.

These numbers obviously also impresses the hell out of the ad budget controllers at the Boeings, Airbusses etc. which is why a truly
professional magazine named ASIAN AVIATION
( which was distributed FOC to the industry in Asia, and therefore had to generate its income mainly from the ad sales ) was forced
out of business in ,97 after approx 15 successful years, due to the cyclical downturn in the aviation industry, the mergers taking place reducing the number of manufacturers ads,and they could'nt produce the readership numbers as were being claimed by FI.

So boys and girls,next time you drive past the Quadrant House, you will appreciate that the "contributions" you have made over the years were well invested, and the pilots in the developing countries are grateful for the free subscription to what once was a (reasonably) good magazine.

I have been subscribed to Aviation Week for over 33 years, and still consider that the best value for the dollar.

Happy landings to ye all.........


" It is hard to make a living out of the air"

Dr. Albert Plesman / Founder of KLM

[DrSyn]

It is a shame that some of the foregoing posts could not make an effort to give constructive criticism instead of just slagging-off. Whilst I am a life-long transport pilot, I have an interest in all aspects of aviation, not just my immediate environment. I can't get too excited about simulator or missile directories, admittedly, but I do follow issues concerning defence, space, technology, business, etc, as part of the "dreaded" broad picture or just plain enthusiasm.

All periodicals, on whatever subject, have good and bad editions. I still find that FI gives a good weekly briefing on the aerospace industry. Some weeks it just takes less time to read than others. As has been pointed out by several posters here, probably unwittingly, if your needs are more parochial, there are other mags out there to suit you. I read some of those too. The vitriol is unnecessary and does not enhance our image as pilots - but that's PPRuNe for you!

With respect to Offchocks' comment about jobs, I too have been in the game for 33 years but, conversely, found the back section of FI very helpful when leaving the RAF during a serious airline recruitment slump. It alerted me to an excellent contract in Oman (4 yrs).

Later, it alerted me to recruitment at my present airline (14 yrs now) which had kept me on file but declared me "too old" (35) on a previous occasion. At end of contract in Oman, I had 6 months to fill before joining them. Picking up a copy of FI as I passed through LHR T3, I saw a local job advertised which matched my quals, made a call and by the end of the day was working for InFinRetirement out of Biggin (happy days, IFR!). I doubt that companies would still be using FI for job-ads unless they got returns.

As for mallard not being bothered to lift the mag out of the rack. How else would you be able to comment on the present content, Sir?

Meanwhile, as one of the few people on this forum to use his real name has bothered to reply honestly, how's about trying "constructive", folks? As a counter to the negativity here, I have subscribed to FI since '66 and will renew my 3-year subs next time it comes up. After posting this, Dave, can I get a free sub? :)

[World Traveller]

perhaps part of Flight's problem is the internet. Up to the minute news is now available from various sites such as PPRuNe, making Flight much more out of date at publication.

[David Learmount]

sky9

Your reply's on P5 of the "airline pilots lack skills" thread.

DL

[BoeingBoy]

KawanLama, thanks for your posting regarding the distribution of FI in the far east. It clarifies very well why I have been noticing an obsession by FI journalists to please the Asian market. If I had to read one more six page article on some insignificant Asian airline or manufacturer I was going to scream!

In the last two days I received my tri-annual subscription reminder from Alan Winn. When this Gentlemen became editor I wrote to him welcoming him to 'The worlds most boring magazine'. He replied that after having sat down and looked through many back copies he thoroughly agreed with me.

He went on to print a handfull of articles that were educational and entertaining to those of us who actually fly airplanes, but it didn't last long. We were soon back to the endless dribble about 'Scruggs units and woffle bolts being fitted to the latest version of a far eastern turbo prop that no-one wanted to buy!'

So take this as my reply Mr Winn. Thanks but no thanks, I won't be renewing my six years of subscriptions, and I won't bother lifting the magazine off the shelf in Smiths either.

This magazine has had endless warnings that the people who WANT to buy and read FI are the people who FLY airplanes, not those that build, paint or put furnishings in them. Until the magazine favours articles about 'flying' aircraft, rather than building them then it will decline.

Happy redundancies to you all at Quadrant House!

[ 16 August 2001: Message edited by: BoeingBoy ]

[Airbrake]

Flight has been a bit thin lately, but BALPA members can subscribe for less than £1 a copy! Not bad for any mag.

[boris]

David
further to feet as a measure of height and knots for speed, can we revert to nautical miles for distance please. After all, what was good enough for the great explorers and navigators has not changed and we all use these measurements on our current nav equipment.
This bending to what seemed to be the new scientific order several years ago has never quite worked and probably won`t yet awhile.
Oh, just another thing, almost everyone except you uses lbs for thrust including manufacturers.

[mallard]

DrSyn,
I feel qualified to comment because people leave Flight lying around crewrooms.
I don't need to have a surreptitious look at the back pages in W. H. Smiths.
The Internet is the new Flight et al.

[MissChief]

What about a "Glamorous Hostie" section to pep up FI? Mind you, not so many about these days! And I'm not kidding! :D

[jan alblas]

Tcas Climb

I am pleased to see that also the "developed
world" is apparently on the mailing list for a free subscription.

Makes one wonder about the credibility
of BPA International who endorses FI's
( audited ) readers profile for the benefit
of the advertisers...........
:(