Jetstar routes & 717 to Qantas Link [Archive]

swh

28th Dec 2004, 01:36

should they be successful they will be running the two operations, Jetstar out of Perth with the 320's, and the QLink 717 ops.

Looking at the schedules recently, a number of 320 flights have been canned, asking whats happening apparently not enough crew for the current 320 operation, let alone expanding to the west.

Seems the ex-impulse A320 pilots have woken up and realised that thye are getting paid close to half of A320 pilots elsewhere in the region, with a strong demand for 320 pilots at the moment wispers are about that jetstar are looking at decreasing wages, not incresing.

So decreasing wages, coupled with a contract that says if you go in as a direct entry A320 capt on a 146 drivers pay, and the company will bust you back to FO in 24 months as the impulse EBA has all their pilots having seniority.

And you wonder why people are saying thanks but no thanks, sure you have a million eastern pilots wanting to get in, from what I hear even those people are thinking hard about it, for some its a pay cut, and pay for your endorsement, and no recognition for your service with Qantaslink in terms of seniority, except if your ex-impulse flying Qantaslink.

:hmm: :ugh: :uhoh:

commander adama

28th Dec 2004, 01:52

swh

What a load of garbage. Mate you are totally off centre. Go back to your little hole where you can dream up some more crap. Even Eastern pilots are even thinking. Wages being reduced because demand is high and supply low. The law of economics? Lol

dodgybrothers

28th Dec 2004, 02:02

If Jetstar are certainties, it begs the question why not just give it too them and QF tell them that this is the price that will be paid rather than going through a tender process?

Seems like the rat is just running down the costs of the incumbent

swh

28th Dec 2004, 05:47

commander adama,

No need for personal attacks.

What I have said is exactly how it has been described by A320 captains with JST, and experience A320 pilots who have talked to JST recently.

JST apparently also require experienced pilots on the A320 to become recurrent on the A320 at their own expense.

Wages being reduced because demand is high and supply low. The law of economics? Lol

Yes well if you were an Dash F/O with EAA and have to wait for 4+ years for a Dash command and looking at 60k EAA gross compared with 65k gross JST, having to pay 20k+ for an A320 endorsement, then bonded for your line training, and knowning no chance of a command for about as long as it would take to get on in EAA (due to impulse pilots haveing seniority, and loose seniority with EAA, and possible reduction intravel benifits for 6 months) why whould you jump ship other than as a stepping stone to KA, CX etc.

:hmm: :ugh: :rolleyes:

spinout

28th Dec 2004, 07:15

Endorsement costs $33,500
(Get some back in tax maybe)
FO pay, 717 or a320 $73,000
Overtime and you have to do it $80.00 per hour after 75 hours currently rostered around 95 hours per month..
$4200 professional retention bonus
Move at your own expense
pay for and maintain your own Jeps
6 months wait for staff travel unless you enter via EOI from Eastern or Sunstate… lose years of service with Qantas…

:rolleyes:

swh

28th Dec 2004, 09:22

spinout,

Thanks for that, those numbers they look about right, 60% of capt for f/0, I thought it was 55%.

The $80/hr is that the Capt or F/O rate ? guys are saying the computer roster thing will fly you up to 75 hrs (which is 900/yr), then add 20 hrs of other stuff ontop for which overtime is not paid. Like EPs, SOPs, SIM etc. so you never see any overtime.

Be careful with the overtime also, some LCC operators for overtime payment work on standard computer flightplan "airswitch" sector time, does not take into account being early or late on sector time, and does not take into account ground ATC or aircraft tech delays.

Overtime is normally paid 1 month in behind.

So after PAYE tax, medicare, your take home would be from ATO $37,869 and minus $33,500 endorsement fee, first year you take home $4,369, how much an hour will make (75 hrs a month = 900/yr) ? $4.85/hr !!!!!

:hmm:

John Citizen

28th Dec 2004, 22:21

Yes I agree with figures that your take home pay is only $4.85/hour for the first year. :uhoh:

But, look at the big picture / long term.

Is this a job you will only keep for 1 year ?

Or more like maybe 20 or more years ?

I still believe in the long term you will be financially better off even if the first year is hard (for the average pilot coming out of GA).

$4.85/hour anyway is very good for your first year in an airline compared to your first year in GA !!

Lets say you spend $50,000 to gain a CPL and then your first job brings you $15,000 !!

This means your first year in GA you are working at a loss of $35,000 !! You are losing $70/hour (based on 500 hours/year) !!

But then why do pilots continue ? Because they look at the long term picture.

Your first in the airlines can now be likened to your first year GA, but better. And just like GA, it will get better, and you will eventually make a "profit".

$4.85 the first year will turn into $42.00 the next year and only get better. And what about when you get your command ?

Look at the long term !!

Captain Can't

28th Dec 2004, 22:31

swh;
Be careful with the overtime also, some LCC operators for overtime payment work on standard computer flightplan "airswitch" sector time, does not take into account being early or late on sector time, and does not take into account ground ATC or aircraft tech delays
It is common practice to use agreed 'sector block times'. In some mindset's it's a good idea, gives crew the motorvation to get there on schedule, as opposed to milking extra pay and being late... not that anyone would do that now.... :}

Red Hot Chili Pepper

29th Dec 2004, 00:39

SWH,

" . . . . getting paid close to half of A320 pilots elsewhere in the region".

Would you agree to lump the 737 in with the A320 in that they are really the same size, operation, complexity etc?

Australia is in the region known as Oceania, or Australia - Pacific. Care to name how many A320 (and 737) pilots in the "region" are paid twice as much as Jetstar? I can think of only one.

" . . . jetstar are looking at decreasing wages, not incresing." Actually, a wage rise is probably on the way. Certainly not a decrease - the legal folks would have something to say about that.

" . . . other than as a stepping stone to KA, CX etc". I am sure you are aware that there are many pilots in these carriers interested in coming back to oz to work for Jetstar, or Virgin, as many have done already.

"So after PAYE tax, medicare, your take home would be from ATO $37,869 and minus $33,500 endorsement fee, first year you take home $4,369, how much an hour will make (75 hrs a month = 900/yr) ? $4.85/hr !!!!!"

Take a look at those net figures again - slightly off the mark. Also, take a look at your endorsement cost. More importantly, take a look at second year pay after the training is paid for.

BUT most importantly of all - take a look at it from a point of view other than money. Just for change.

Gnadenburg

29th Dec 2004, 03:14

John Citizen

Your long term picture is quite bleak IMHO.

Paying for your endorsement ( that the airline already has a free training credit for ) is another example of a a group of pilots who looked after themselves without a long term picture.

Pilots that have to pay for their training at airline level, are hoodwinked to accept poor pay aswell.

Hats off to the Impulse and Virgin pilot group! ;)

Would not be so bad if they wallowed in their own mess that they created in Australia. But, with the naivety that drove the group to pay for their training and accept poor pay and conditions, they seek to leave their "lifestyle" existance in Oz and seek the expat Pot Of Gold.

The willingness of hundreds of jet pilots to leave the wonderful county that Australia is, has foreign operators wondering if they are paying pilots too much!

Bad long term picture guys-clean up the backyard.

Chilli Pepper

I would suggest confidently, there are a lot more trying to get out of Virgin Blue and J* to the choice overseas positions than vice versa.

ITCZ

29th Dec 2004, 03:37

I have tried to sit on my hands on this topic, but this guy rang my bell a little too hard...

Red Hot...
BUT most importantly of all - take a look at it from a point of view other than money. Just for change.
Are you sure you hold/held a COMMERCIAL pilot licence?

Are you advocating that a job that takes on average at least 7 years specialist training and experience to obtain, requires shiftwork, continous competency checking, back of the clock, overnighting, and countless restrictions and risks imposed on your lifestyle not found in other occupations, should be paid even LESS?

Turn a job that pays around $70k p.a into one that effectively pays $65k?

Are you advocating that whenever an airline decides to introduce new equipment, the current pilots just stump up $30k-$40k to retain their jobs? This may happen every five years!

Have you ever DONE this job?

Should a doctor be asked to take less pay simply because they find the job interesting and enjoyable?

A lawyer?

A firefighter?

A teacher?

You sound like an impractical dreamer that is still running on the promises made by a spotty instructor at a GAAP flying school.

You will soon find out that dedication and enjoyment does not pay for those things you will soon expect from life.

Of course it is about money. Why else would I spend half my life with my head in the books reading about SOPS, hydraulics, runway performance requirements, the whole shebang. $30k could buy me a fifth share in a Pitts S2 that will be a ****load more interesting to fly than a medium transport category jet, and I could fly it pretty much anytime i wanted to, and nobody would be on my case as to how I chose to fly it.

If money is not a concern to you, stop populating a professional pilot forum with your drivel.

Of course its all about money. What a stupid comment.

404 Titan

29th Dec 2004, 04:29

Red Hot Chili Pepper
" . . . other than as a stepping stone to KA, CX etc". I am sure you are aware that there are many pilots in these carriers interested in coming back to oz to work for Jetstar, or Virgin, as many have done already.
What a load of garbage. For the record there were about four pilots about three years ago that left CX to go to DJ because they wanted to live back in Australia. Since a basing wasn’t possible on the B777 they all resigned. One other Captain who left against his will also went to DJ as a direct entry captain or very close to it. Now the number of guys and girls that have been trying to get into CX and I imagine KA as well is well documented and known in our airline. To my knowledge none have been successful at CX. Maybe their motive for wanting to come here came through at their interviews.

I have never met any pilot here that would want to work for DJ or worse Jetstar voluntarily. Sh*t the company is finding it hard enough to find pilots to take an Aussie base because of the crap pay and high taxes let alone the even crapper pay and conditions that both the low cost operators offer. For the record “NO” CX pilot has left here to work for DJ or Jetstar voluntarily in the last three years. We aren’t idiots. Some may want to move back to Aus but none are prepared to accept the crap conditions that both the low cost carriers are offering.

Pete Conrad

29th Dec 2004, 04:42

commander assdama you pathetic moron, wages started on the slide the day you fools at Nopulse started flying Beech 1900's for $27,000.

Don't sit there and spout holier than thou crap about economics matey, as you have absolutely no idea with your rose coloured goggles.

Hows flight sim going fool? How bout you crawl back into your hole?

Your comments are like your lower intestine assdama, stinking and loaded with danger.

Red Hot Chili Pepper

29th Dec 2004, 04:55

ICTZ,

Yes, an ATPL in my hot little hand. It has been there for many many years now.

7 years of specialist training? In the company I now work for (and the one before that) kids with 12 months training are now flying the plum widebody around without much trouble in the RHS. Guys with only 2.5 years service are LHS narrow body having spent minimal time in GA beforehand. This is common in Asia and Europe. Take a look at carriers like Air China. Only 3-4 years after graduating from the sausage factory pilots are LHS of jet airliners.

I dont recall anybody advocating being paid less. In fact I very specifically stated that in Jetstar's case, this will not be occuring. You may have overlooked that point.

I dont advocate that pilots pay for endorsement training when new aircraft are parked on the ramp. Is this happening at Jetstar? Are the 717 drivers being asked to pony up the cash to get rated on the A320?

I dont know of any doctor who has been asked to receive "less pay" because he enjoys the job. I DO know of doctors, lawyers and a lot of airline pilots that have left higher paying jobs to work for lower paying jobs for reasons totally unrelated to money. You, and other ppruners may think in dollar terms only, but many employees make job decisions based on a myriad of reasons.

"You will soon find out that dedication and enjoyment does not pay for those things you will soon expect from life."

Actually, I have found out that dedication and enjoyment are far more important than taking home gobs of cash. I have worked on both sides of the fence and found that no amount of cash can offset the dissapointment of working for a ruthless, inhuman and totally visionless airline.

I dont recall saying that the money is of "no concern" to me. You would make a great politician. Of course money is important but it is not at the top of the list.

Is having a different point of view a threat to you. Would you really feel more comfortable ppruning away with nothing but narrow minded gits like yourself. How boring.

404 Titan,

You open with "what a load of garbage" and then go on to talk of 4 pilots that left CX for VB. Which is it? You say they left for reasons of lifestyle, so obviously its not "garbage" that people move from job to job for reasons other than money.Take a look at pilots leaving carriers such as Eva, as some have, Gulf as some are trying and Qatar as many would love to. I have no doubt that the majority is in the other direction, so keep your hair on. BUT - its early days, only a couple of years since AN went broke but a lot of the refugees I know admit it wont be long until a LOWER PAID JOB in oz will outweigh the benfits of the cash cow in Asia or Europe or the ME.

swh

29th Dec 2004, 05:05

Red Hot Chili Pepper,

Australia is in the region known as Oceania, or Australia - Pacific. Care to name how many A320 (and 737) pilots in the "region" are paid twice as much as Jetstar? I can think of only one.

To answer your question, every A320 operator in Singapore and Hong Kong that I know of...the F/Os take home more than Jetstar Captains in Oz do.

Have a look at where Jetstar pilots are going, Hong Kong, Taipie, and Singapore, they are not going for lifestyle reasons I can give you the tip. actutally I tell I lie, some do for lifestyle, the like the expat roster thing.

:ok:

P.S. No need for personal attacks guys ...

404 Titan

29th Dec 2004, 05:34

Red Hot Chili Pepper
" . . . other than as a stepping stone to KA, CX etc". I am sure you are aware that there are many pilots in these carriers interested in coming back to oz to work for Jetstar, or Virgin, as many have done already.
I would call four out of about 2300 pilots in both CX and KA over the last three years as very very very few. So therefore your statement that many have come down as definitely garbage and a huge exaggeration of the truth.

As for your comments about Eva and Gulf, maybe this reflects the erosion of conditions and abuse of civil rights and contracts that is causing many in these carriers to leave. From what I gather there is huge problems with expat staff moral in both these carriers. Maybe you are getting a few disgruntled pilots returning from these carriers, but you certainly aren’t getting “many” from CX or KA and certainly none recently.

tinpis

29th Dec 2004, 05:49

Feel the love.
:hmm:

The Matirx

29th Dec 2004, 06:08

I think Pete Conrads post directed at Cmdr Adama contains probably the best insult I have ever read on this forum.

"Your comments are like your lower intestine assdama, stinking and loaded with danger."

spinout

29th Dec 2004, 19:04

Well done Pete….

J* for those who would like to get there foot in the door in HK is probably the way to go as for a future to much like hard work for little return..
:bored:

Hugh Jarse

29th Dec 2004, 21:40

So when's your start date, Spinout?:8

JQ are still interviewing a considerable number of D/E A320 Capts. Most are locally based, but some want to come home from O.S.

spinout

29th Dec 2004, 22:46

Jarse,

I think I am a bit to old to start again.....

;)

Red Hot Chili Pepper

30th Dec 2004, 00:59

swh -in employment terms, Singapore and Hong Kong are in no way considered to be the same region as Australia. Do you really expect Australian employees to be rewarded the same as HKG based? I doubt it.

In the "region", Jetstar are on par with other narrow body operators. Virgin Pacific, Virgin Blue, Jet Connect, Freedom, NJS, Skywest etc. None of these pay "almost twice as much" as Jetstar.

There are pilots "leaving" Singapore and Taiwan to move to Jetsar in Oz. Eva and Silkair have been a good source of crew. And they are certainly not moving to where the money is better. Perhaps they have other motives.

hoss

30th Dec 2004, 01:04

31 is not too old, mate;) .

Zapatas Blood

30th Dec 2004, 01:13

JetBlue, F/O A320 year one $52900 usd. (68000 aud)

Approx the same as Jetstar after tax, however, when compared to cost of living (NYC compared to BNE,MEL,HBA) Jetstar pilot comes out way ahead.

Airtran, Frontier and Jetblue (all pay roughly the same salary) represent the new airline scene in the US - they are consistantly employing and represent the lions share of new airline jobs in America. The Majors employed less than 100 pilots last year.

Jetstar is nothing abnormal.

hoss

30th Dec 2004, 01:34

I was amazed also at the amount of American Pilots that have to work second jobs. Serious, not uncommon for a new guy to fly a Regional prop/jet in the day and pack shelves, drive taxi's, barmen etc. at night.

Sad state of affairs and somehow I get the feeling we are not too far behind:sad: .

Gnadenburg

30th Dec 2004, 02:03

Hoss

Your choice. There are thousands of well renumerated Australian pilots.

Impulse and VB started the rot and now seek these jobs aswell, without the fortitude to clean their own backyard first.

If you pay for your endorsement as a stepping stone to get a good job overseas, you will be disappointed, as economic fundamentals suggest a flow of cheap Australian pilots will put a downward trend on conditions.

You come to our airlines, having paid for your endorsement and worked for poor renumeration, do you now expect me not to sign off on a C or D scale wage package for you?

Bugger you. I am not fighting the battles of weak Australian low cost pilots!

Chilli

You are playing Devil's Advocate with a morbid satsisfaction in the deterioration of domestic pilot conditions.

Only a few years ago, you were enjoying conditions of service at least 40% better than now in a domestic Australian airline- QF enjoyed similar.

Pilots who pay for their endorsements give managment a green light to provide poor conditions- Impulse, Virgin Group etc.

Have you had to pay for an endorsement in the last few years? No, your not stupid, just homesick.

Taiwan a poor example. A horrible place, horrible companies and pilots there because they are blackbanned and ex- AN management pilots took the better SQ positions.

Singapore? More Australian pilots coming to Singapore than are leaving. I am not aware of what an SQ Captain is paid compared to Impulse say.

swh

30th Dec 2004, 03:08

Red Hot Chili Pepper,

Still dont know where you pulled the "Oceania, or Australia - Pacific" thing from, other than the soccor hightlights on SBS.

Hong Kong and Singapore are part of our region, it takes people just about as long to go PER-SIN as PER-BNE, or OZ-HKG, PER-CNS.

None of the operators you mentioned are A320 operators, however I understand that freedom are training A320 crews up at the moment. Only reason people set up airlines in NZ is the NZ dollar is less than OZ dollar.

Shake a tree of ATPL holders, every man and his dog has flown 737's, training is cheap, and pay less than AUD$3/month for captains before tax is bieng paid in the region (I shoud clarify our ecomonic region APEC).

I will make something very clear once for you, Airbus provides free endorsements (known as training credits) when you purchase aircraft, its their way of making sure you dont crash and and give the type a bad name, keeps initial, lease, and reasle prices for A320s high as they are perceived as being safe.

So you must ask yourself, if they have training credits, why do they charge pilots for the endorsement ?

Zapatas Blood mentioned Jetblue, as far as I know they dont ask their pilots to pay for endorsements, as they mentioned the US tax system does not rape you as much as in Australia either.

May I suggest you engage the brain, and auto thinking, and ask yourself why a 15 yr old in coles takes home more per hour than a jetstar f/o does.

Gnadenburg,

A SQ/Silk A320 captain takes home about three times plus of an Impulse Captain. Tiger the SQ low cost take home over double an Impulse captains wage, and those who are working for Tiger and contracted through PARC are on even better money still.

:rolleyes:

Capt Claret

30th Dec 2004, 03:54

Gnad,

How would you suggest the industry stop the practice of paying for endorsements? I'd be really surprised if all pilots would agree not to, thus forcing a halt, as enough would see the opportunity to make a quick progression and therfore hand over the $$$$. :{

grrowler

30th Dec 2004, 07:21

whats the cost of living like in SIN or HKG? This certainly would be a consideration when comparing packages. I would think you wouldn't be a lot better off even on 2xJ* money over there.

I hope that none of you out there whinging about J* conditions have now applied or ever will apply when you get sick of the expat lifestyle. Somehow I suspect there will be plenty who do...

swh, did they pay for your endorsement?

Ultralights

30th Dec 2004, 07:41

Of course it is about money. Why else would I spend half my life with my head in the books reading about SOPS, hydraulics, runway performance requirements, the whole shebang.

some of us actually Enjoy spending time with the head in the books! im not sure its purly about the money , Flying is an addiction, and lets you use your brain as a regular part of the job!!

i am earning 3 times more now in my own business that i ever did in avaition, and probably more than a 747 captain! (take home after tax and other expenses super etc, is over $70K) and it pays for my love of flying!
sure, i dreamed of the airline jobs, but i simply could not afford to pay for my training :(
and spending time with my head in the books takes my mind away from the teediums of running a business, and gives my time to myself.

Im sure quite a few professional pilots love the lifestyle and the job and job satisfaction itself more then the money.

boocs

30th Dec 2004, 08:13

Captain C.,

Perhaps by saying "No" could be a good start....

"A bit simplistic" I hear you say, but got to start somewhere. Should the opportunity arise in the future for you to fly, say a 717, are you happy to fork out the $30K or thereabouts?

What about contributing part of the cost of your endorsement AND taking a $1000 pay cut all for the privelege of The Company winning a contract....

Unfortunately, I can see only 1 BIG winner and an even bigger loser in the awarding of the QantasLink contract...

As a current NJS skipper relayed to me recently "This contract is just about seeing how far we can bend over and how far further the sour lemon can be shoved up our a$$."

Capt Claret

31st Dec 2004, 05:44

boocs

You're right, I would say "a bit simplistic" as I have no doubt that in your hypothetical, if I did say no, then some one would say yes and when I then lamented my job loss, some one else would say "well you're a knob for giving it up".

Am I happy to pay for an endorsement? No.

Would I? If it meant gaining a job that I wanted, or not losing one I've got; most likely.

It all depends upon the cost, is it woth it to me?

One only has to read the PPRuNe fora to become aware that there is no such thing as solidarity amongst pilots. There's lots of spruking about it but bugger al evidence of it. Much like that year that should not be named. Every one was going to stick together then, many did but many didn't.

The prescedent was set for paying for endorsements by Virgin and then Jetstar in Aus. I mightn't like it but it sure seems to me that the writing is on the wall. Those who won't accept it will probably leave the industry, or choose an employer who doesn't charge. The pragmatists will decide if they're prepared to pay the cost.

boocs

1st Jan 2005, 04:12

Your position is one that I certainly do not envy....

Good luck.

ur2

1st Jan 2005, 07:36

In regards to the 2yrs as Capt, then back to FO. A mate who has just joined J* as direct entry A320 Capt, has just told me that it has now gone out to 3yrs.
Me thinks he will never have to wear 3 stripes with the expected massive growth.
Even if they don,t win the 717 contract.

Gnadenburg

1st Jan 2005, 15:27

Claret

There has been real apathy amongst the Low Cost Pilots of Australia ( VB and J* ). In a short period of time conditons have nearly halved.

I have no answers for poor motivation amongst a professional group.

Blackbanning Low Cost Pilots, from the better airline positions they may eventually seek, may force these pilots to realise the only improvement they will get is from their current employer.

I doubt if this could or would be enforced. But it certainly would make it harder for apathetic pilots in Australia to ruin the profession at home and pack the bags for greener pastures.

My answer may well be to sell you out, by signing off lower wages in the form of B & C scales. This will protect my conditions for a few years more-and then I will be wealthy enough to be a Low Cost Pilot!:(

itchybum

1st Jan 2005, 15:37

Wise words, G.

"If you repeat it they will listen."

rtforu

1st Jan 2005, 18:18

Here we go again!! As I see It, we all have choices. If you are happy to accept sub standard conditions and salary and your are prepared to get fleeced by paying for your own endorsment then take the job with the LCC, maybe it's a stepping stone?

If you want the good money and conditions, and they are out there, then persue that, but please, it's your choice, stop the bitching and complaining. We pilots allowed this to happen by accepting these conditions. It's like going to a crap restaurant, getting lousy service, horrible food and paying for it without saying a word.

Get the message.... You get what you settle for in life!!!!!!!!

Red Hot Chili Pepper

2nd Jan 2005, 02:16

Gnad - I have no satisfaction at all regarding the deteriorating conditions in oz. I hope to return one day and would much rather an AN pay packet than a Jetstar / Virgin pay packet. But these things are in the hands of the global market gods, not mine.

I have not paid for training for almost 15 years now - the only outgoing I have had since joining the airline game was paying to be interviewed by QF. But, if me and the missus and rugrats decide one day in the future that moving back to oz is required, I will seek the best highest paid job that I can. Bearing in mind that I have no skills other than flying, I will be seeking a flying job. QF have given me the big no, so I ask you Gnad, what would you do. I am A320 rated, not 737, so Jetstar will probably make more sense - although I wouldn't really care either way. As far as I can tell, getting a 320 job with jetstar brings the highest salary and staff travel benefits available in oz, with the exception of QF. I would however, pay for a 737 rating were Virgin the only offer on the table.

SWH - very little point in arguing about definition of regions, but Sin and Hkg have never and will never be considered the same region as far as staff benefits are concerned, in any industry.You may wish to work in oz getting paid a Hkg salary, but wishing it doesn't make it so. Your offer of flight times to define pay scales is hilarious. If only it was that simple. You also quote ZP thus "as they mentioned the US tax system does not rape you as much as in Australia either". The US tax system is totally irrelevant. As Zap pointed out, AFTER TAX, a Jetblue / Frontier etc pilot is worse off than a Jetstar pilot.

Boocs - "perhaps by saying no is a good start". A friend of mine in Europe is flying RHS 767 and would love to come back to oz. He is not 737 type rated or A320 type rated. He is an adult and fully prepared and financially able to pay for an endorsement. He has been interviewed by virgin and told to pay for a rating and is aware that if he were interviewed by jetstar he would also have to pay for a rating. So do you suggest he pass up the opportunity to return to oz, something he wants to do, by saying to both airlines, NO. In the vain hope it would force them to change recruitment policy? More importantly, do you have the right to dictate to my friend what he should do?

rtforu - "If you want the good money and conditions, and they are out there, then persue that, but please". I assume that you consider QF to be the only airline in this category (although I don't). Could you please please please explain to me just how you "pursue" a job with QF after they have turned you down. I am really keen to know.

I know many pilots at VB, Jetstar and QF. The VB pilots are not that happy with the number of overnights or the pay being less than the same job being done at QF. The guys I know recently arrived at Jetstar (ex AN), are just glad to get back to oz, from eva, silk, value and even one who gave an offer at KA the flick in preference to J.

BUT, they generally accept the decisions they made and do not "bitch and complain" as you infer. The lions share of whining I hear is from pilots at legacy carriers that are S@#$% scared that the rest of the industry is undermining their pay and conditions.

Market forces that give you a DVD player for 200 bucks are the same market forces that rationalise the compensation levels of a deregulated industry.

Please, take it up with Friedman or Keynes, not me.

rtforu

2nd Jan 2005, 03:22

Well, redhot. QF....MMM, wouldn't be my first choice, but at lest they pay the bucks. If i were you I would be thinking outside Aus. I would consider KA or CX very good places to work, especially CX as you can pretty well live in Aus if you must.

As I see it, both these companies pay well, the tax is good and they are both top notch airlines.

Good luck

Dehavillanddriver

2nd Jan 2005, 07:06

Chilli,

The Jetstar A320 pilots get considerably less than the Virgin737 pilots.

without allowances Virgin captains are getting in excess of 150 k per year.

Do a search of the awards on the net for the real info

chow babe

2nd Jan 2005, 07:24

try this for current wage for jet* capt

$122000
$7000 retention
$21000 overtime ( $140 per hour 15hours a month usually alot more!!! ,10 months )
--------------
$150000

commander adama

2nd Jan 2005, 10:37

The Jetstar A320 pilots get considerably less than the Virgin737 pilots.

Dehavillanddriver

Yes do some research bozo.

Chow babe

That is accurate.

Dehavillanddriver

2nd Jan 2005, 10:51

Assdama,

I would have thought a base salary of $129000 versus $150000 was "considerably less", particularly when comparing 75 hrs a month, which is what we typically do.

What can you put down on a housing loan application? Do you include overtime that you may or may not get - do you get it on leave or when off sick? No? then compare apples with apples...

You got to listen in them CRM courses 'bozo'

commander adama

2nd Jan 2005, 12:26

which is what we typically do

Oh you work for jetstar.

If you have ever gotten a housing loan you would know that overtime is counted. From what i hear FO's are on close to 100 hours and Captains above 90 you silly little clown.

Gnadenburg

2nd Jan 2005, 14:35

Adama

I have heard from sources inside J* of quite low wages.

It is very difficult to quantify, as out of embarrassment I imagine, Low Cost Pilots in Australia often add allowances, loss of licence insurance and other incidentals, to beef up their perceived gross salary.

Red Hot....

If you want to go home I have heard J* very short of crews.

Wherever you may be, can't be as bad as flying 900hrs a year and living in Sunbury!

rt4u

They do not accept their lot and after a few years become restless.

Low Cost Pilots are becoming aviation fifth columnists.

oicur12

2nd Jan 2005, 16:54

"May I suggest you engage the brain, and auto thinking, and ask yourself why a 15 yr old in coles takes home more per hour than a jetstar f/o does."

Please tell me you are not suggesting that working in coles can be this lucrative. May I suggest you arm yourself with more accurate ammunition before shooting your mouth off. You do nothing but undermine your own argument with this garbage.

Red Hot Chili Pepper

2nd Jan 2005, 17:26

rtforu, you said - If i were you I would be thinking outside Aus.

You dont get it do you. I AM living outside of oz and I AM working for a big dollar carrier. But I, at some stage in the future (and like a lot of my work mates), would like the opportunity to return to oz. You know, my homeland. Where I was born and raised.

Gnad, you said - Wherever you may be, can't be as bad as flying 900hrs a year and living in Sunbury.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Since arriving in the great overseas, I have flown almost 1000 hours per annum and in one case, almost 110 hours in 30 days.
I cant see the building next to me because of the pollution and no amount of money in the bank will alter the fact that the airline I work for can sack pilots at the drop of a hat (and often does) for very little reason. Lawyers are very thin on the ground in this neck of the woods.

I will do what suits my family and myself, this is not intended to be a whinge at all.

BUT SUNBURY IS NOT LOOKING ALL THAT BAD RIGHT NOW.

Never thought I would say that!!!!

spinout

2nd Jan 2005, 19:13

Assdama,

What you are trying to say is that a Jetstar Captain has to do at least 150 more hours that a Virgin Captain to have the same wage….

And as Jetstar don’t do overnights or very few there is no allowances unlike Virgin so I would say virgin are much better off comparatively… especially when one day Jetstar stops the overtime.

Ps I very much doubt if dehav works for Jetstar….

I really have to laugh at some of your posts do you drink a lot…..
;)

Douglas Mcdonnell

2nd Jan 2005, 20:46

Arcing up about guesses will get you no where.
Average captains wage flying about 95 hours a month about 150k. F/Os are on about 85k.

As for working in Coles. How much does that gig pay again? Do they do overnights? Where can I sign up.

DM

rtforu

2nd Jan 2005, 23:01

So Red Hot... What's your problem? If you so desperatly need to be back in Aus, why not just go!! But no, I guess you would rather be a miserable pain in the a#se and complain till the cows come in.

Do us Aussies all a favour, stay where ever you are!!

Gnadenburg

3rd Jan 2005, 01:54

Keep it civil gent's.

Chilli Pepper does raise intersting issues.

Low Cost Pilots from Australia are, in not insignificant numbers, applying to airlines such as Cathay, Dragon & Emirates.

That Low Cost Pilots still find these expat positions attractive is bewildering- consider a 30% paycut due the weak USD, labour laws slewed toward big business and the challenges of the Sandpit and Hong Kong.

It is indicative of the poor conditions and professional naivity of this group.

Are they aware of struggles the above pilot groups are going through? The 49ers in CX, Dragon pilots having battles or the right, royal shafting at EK.

My advice to Low Cost Pilots in Australia- it may well be easier to improve your professional lot at home as opposed to taking the PERCEIVED easier and greener pastures option.

This is without even referencing family issues such as Mid East stability and Arabian neighbours, or choking pollution in HK.

Red Hot Chilli

Have you considered living in Broadmeadows? I here that is where most of th J* pilots reside- Sunbury getting too expensive.;)

404 Titan

3rd Jan 2005, 05:13

Gnadenburg

Low Cost Pilots from Australia are, in not insignificant numbers, applying to airlines such as Cathay, Dragon & Emirates. That Low Cost Pilots still find these expat positions attractive is bewildering- consider a 30% paycut due the weak USD, labour laws slewed toward big business and the challenges of the Sandpit and Hong Kong.
Not true. A first year S/O at CX is earning about the same gross as a first year F/O at DJ. After Tax and the other benefits such as housing at CX and KA you are way ahead. This is taking into account the very strong Aus dollar at 6:1. A first year JF/O at CX is about 50% better off gross and a first year F/O is about 100% better off gross. Again after tax and housing is taken into account someone in HK is way way out in front. You may ask why include housing? I have included it because you can use it to pay off a mortgage in Hong Kong. After five years this can amount to as much as AUD$430,000.00. This is with no capital gain. As property prices here are on the way up, it is quite feasible you could make substantially more.

BAE146

3rd Jan 2005, 08:17

Can anyone confirm Jetstar has secured the 717 Qantaslink contract in the West ? A mate of mine in Brisbane just emailed me to say he has an interview with Jetstar - nothing unusual you all say. EXCEPT that two months ago he was advised his interview and application was unacceptable and thanks but no thanks! Has Jetstar had a change of policy or are they getting desperate for pilots - sorry Baz, don't mean it that way but you know what I mean.........SUPPLY and DEMAND ?

Iguanahead

3rd Jan 2005, 09:08

swh - "May I suggest you engage the brain, and auto thinking, and ask yourself why a 15 yr old in coles takes home more per hour than a jetstar f/o does."

A 15 year old in coles has an hourly rate of between $14 and $15 at full time pay unless they are casual and have an hourly rate of between $16 and $17. Of course there is weekend loading but I don't see it being that much more.

Exactly how much is a J* F/O hourly rate?

grrowler

3rd Jan 2005, 09:19

swh,

Do you know how many training credits a company receives per aircraft? I presume it would be negotiable, and not trying to justify the self-funding of training, but I wouldn't imagine it would cover the company's tech crew needs.

Secondly, normally your arguments do make some sense, but where did you pull the Coles/ J* wage comparison from??:confused:

swh

3rd Jan 2005, 10:04

Guys...

What I said on page 1 of this post for an f/o "So after PAYE tax, medicare, your take home would be from ATO $37,869 and minus $33,500 endorsement fee, first year you take home $4,369, how much an hour will make (75 hrs a month = 900/yr) ? $4.85/hr !!!!!" which is less than any 15 yr old in coles earns after tax.

This of course does not include the cost of money if you have to borrow to get the funds required to pay for your endorsement.

J* F/O's apparently get $80/hr for every flight hour in excess of 75/month, however 75/month is 900/year

G .... Normal to get 10-12 training credits per aircraft, 5-6 crews.

chow babe

Training capts I have spoken to say they never get any overtime, and that hourly rate is only applicable if you fly over 75/hr a month, 75 hrs/month is 900 a year which is max.

I am also of the understanding that the 75 hrs does not include gound taxi, tech delays, holding, it is the computer generated standard flight plan "airswitch" times for each sector, if you do it quicker or slower you get the same rate.

Please correct me if I am wrong, however I understand that capts only get $7000 retention after serving a year, and f/os get 65% of that. VB does the same thing.

Seems the argument is at a stalemate, those who will only look before tax income, and those who look at how much money you would have at the end of the to feed the kids or play with.

:hmm:

404 Titan

3rd Jan 2005, 11:06

swh
What I said on page 1 of this post for an f/o "So after PAYE tax, medicare, your take home would be from ATO $37,869 and minus $33,500 endorsement fee, first year you take home $4,369, how much an hour will make (75 hrs a month = 900/yr) ? $4.85/hr !!!!!" which is less than any 15 yr old in coles earns after tax.
You are assuming that a new F/O with J* is writing this debt off in the first year. The reality is that they are writing it off over the term of their career. This is even more relevant if they borrow the money. Most people couldn’t pay a loan of this size off in one year. It would probably take six or seven. It would also be most interesting to know if new F/O’s are J* employees before they start their training and most importantly pay over the money. If they are, then the cost of the endorsement would be tax deductible. If though they aren’t then this avenue, like their DJ cousins isn’t open to them.
J* F/O's apparently get $80/hr for every flight hour in excess of 75/month, however 75/month is 900/year
Don’t forget annual leave. I have no idea how many weeks they get but if they get six weeks, this leaves about 100 hours still available for overtime per year, assuming they are bound to 900 hours a year.

Big Jan

3rd Jan 2005, 11:40

BAE146
No, Jetstar has not secured the contract in the west.They may still do so, but due to political considerations I doubt it.Expect an official Qantas announcement within the next ten day's.
Yes they are desparate for pilots as they have had the Qantas psych test foisted upon new hires and not too many people seem to be getting through the hoops.
They appear to be very short of pilots.The figure bandied about is 19 pilots short. Whether this is Jetstar wide or just on the 717 I am not sure.Many pilots have been rostered between 100 and 108 hours for the month of January on the 717.
If Jetstar gets the contract in the west it could cause some major concern inhouse as a lot of ex originals ie Impulse guy's could end up stuck on the 717 whilst new hires come in over the top of them onto the A320.This would only be in the short term as it appears Jetstar have big, big plans for the future.
The JPC (Jetstar Pilots Commitee) which has suffered from negative press within the ranks of the Jetstar pilots seem to be back in favour with some, as the new EBA they will be negotiating appears to be a lot better than the pilots expected from a JPC that initally appeared to be ready to roll over to management demands.One would hope so as Jetstar crew are not very happy of late and management would do well to heed the overwhelming sentiment expressed by the recent anonymous questionaire returned recently by many very unhappy employee's.
Stay tuned !

swh

3rd Jan 2005, 12:07

404 Titan,

I have made no such assumption, payment for the endorsement is required at the time of obtaining the endorsement, i.e. within the first year. The training provider does not accept layby or lease payments for the endorsement.

Borrowing money does not change the fact that the expense was incurred in the first year, it just means your balance sheet would show a debt to a lender, the debt does not go away.

By borrowing money you have indirectly provided finance to your employer.

My understanding is the endorsement is pre-employment requirement of the contract, and that tax relief may or may not be available.

Yes...the 900 hrs a year is stick time, from what I am told the 75 hrs/month mark to gain overtime is based on a standard sector "airswitch" time, does not take into account holding or other ground based delays.

:hmm:

404 Titan

3rd Jan 2005, 13:55

I don’t want to get into a slanging match with you because we are both arguing from the same side. I don’t like the fact that airlines like DJ, J* and other low cost airlines are undermining and threatening my hard earned conditions.

BUT, from a strictly accounting point of view and I do know what I am talking about, (please check my profile), if one was to pay for their endorsement from savings, it is from income already earned, probably over a number of years. If one has to borrow the money, which I would presume a lot do, the repayments would be paid off over a number of years from future earnings. It isn’t paid for from the first years earnings, which in a strictly accounting point of view, you have said to support your argument.
your take home would be from ATO $37,869 and minus $33,500 endorsement fee, first year you take home $4,369
It is irrelevant that the fee has to be provided up front. What is important is the length of time it took the new employee to earn the money from previous work or how long it will take them to pay it back. In terms of writing the endorsement (asset) off, you also need to look at how long it is of use. If the pilot is on the same aircraft for ten years then you could feasibly write it off over this period of time.

I see this as no different to someone who pays for their flying training from their own savings or borrowing the money. The end result is a license (asset), which has a finite life. You would write off the cost of the license over the period that it earned you a return on your investment, i.e. until you retire or loose your medical. In other words the older you get the less the license is worth.

If as you say it is a pre employment requirement to have the endorsement, then it isn’t possible to get any tax relief.

commander adama

3rd Jan 2005, 16:48

SWH

What drugs are you taking? You have absolutley no idea what you are talking about. Why do you make it up? What to make yourself feel better?

topend3

3rd Jan 2005, 18:53

i thought this topic was about who's going to win the contract, not how to pay for your endorsement...

Dehavillanddriver

3rd Jan 2005, 20:28

The point that many seem to miss is that in the case of the Australian airlines, the ones that make YOU pay for your endorsement put you on full pay from day 1.

The ones that pay for the endorsement themselves pay a training wage for a period, either until checked to line or 6 months or 2 years - whatever the QF thingie is.

In either event the money comes out of the trainees pocket one way or another.

The pay up front for the endorsement shifts the risk to the student, however it makes for very motivated students.

rescue 1

3rd Jan 2005, 21:03

I agree with Dehav - you pay for endorsements one way or the other; the low "training" salary for the first 6 months and then the legacy airlines put you on a scaled pay for the next ten years (still repaying the endorsement), but this has always been the more palatable approach and perhaps the traditional way...till the advent of LCC's.

This thread started off as a discussion as to who was going to crew the B717 within WA. With Mr Dickson's current strategy of having a number of separate airlines competing against each other, my bet is on NJS succeeding.

ur2

3rd Jan 2005, 22:24

FACT:
You pay for endorsement at J*, you are on full pay from day 1.

rtforu

3rd Jan 2005, 22:40

Well, lets see here. why get paid at all? I mean if your stupid enough to pay for your endorsement, which is really a company cost that dumb pilots have elected to pick up, why not chip in for the fuel cost as well. I know, maybe the pilots could pick up any wage increases for the rest of the staff when they come around.

Mr.Buzzy

3rd Jan 2005, 22:52

RTFORU, you will eat those words WHEN you eventually pay for an endorsement.

Pay for an endorsement or be paid a training wage....Whats the difference??????

bbbzbzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzbb

spinout

3rd Jan 2005, 23:33

On the issue of paying for an endorsement, two things

1. A training wage from the ones I have seen don’t equate to an endorsement of $33,500…
2. Why does it cost so much for a 717 endorsement, computer based training for the most part, 11 hours fixed base 11 hours moving all done with a buddy so effectively they are charging $67,000 for 22 hours….

:cool:

With the numbers Jetstar are pumping through you would think it could be done a bit cheaper or is this another method of making money for Jetstar taking a commission....

Dehavillanddriver

4th Jan 2005, 00:31

I worked it out a while ago, if you looked at a QF S/O and a Virgin F/O - which were at the time two entry level positions onto mainline jets in this country (excluding the NJS and Impulse jobs for the moment)

At the end of year 2 both were even within a few dollars, after which the QF S/O started to overtake the Virgin F/O - earlier if the move into a window seat happened inside 2 years - though the endorsement cost about $21000 at that time.

Granted we are talking about 2 different positions ie F/O and S/O, however at the time of the comparison they were the entry positions - at the time of the comparison (and this was NOT included in the figures) the time to transition to command in Virgin was under 2 years so the figure in reality was distorted again, however I just assumed that you joined the respective companies and stayed in that position.

With regards the 717 endorsement, I don't know, however I would be surprised if you only got 11 hours of motion time split between 2 pilots.

I suspect that the 22 hours (11 fixed and 11 motion) is per pilot - though ALL that being said 11 hours is a funny number - all of my sim sessions have been 4 hours each....the 737 endorsement I did was 10 4 hour sessions of which 9 were motion.

swh

4th Jan 2005, 02:14

commander adama

You personal attack on me is noted, I am not on any drugs, if you have any constructive comments to make on the discussion so far I am all ears.

Mr.Buzzy,

I see a significant differance between the two, when your being paid a training wage the employer has the risk to pay for your training, and additional training if any that is required to get you to standard. When you pay for an endorsement if you dont pass your check flight you are effectively out of a job with a bare endorsement, and no line training, which is very difficult to find work with.

If you also pay for your endorsement you are not earning money whilst training, at least with a training wage you are being paid to undertake training. Also with a training wage it provides more incentive for an employer to get you to work quicker as they will want to see a return on the investment they have made.

Dehavillanddriver

Reading spinouts post I am seeing 11x4hour sessions between two pilots, 44 hrs total.

404 Titan

I will take you word for it, I am not an accountant, I just look at an expense as the time I write the cheque or pay the cash, I dont see an endorsement as an intangeable asset, its value to me is worth less than goodwill.

rescue 1

I am hearing what Big Jan is saying, they are short of pilots, and more people are not taking up offers or leaving than they can cope with. If NJS do take it I see them having bigger problems as the more senior people in the company who would go for the positions, and overseas experience has shown that people over 50 going to the bus for the first time tend to fail more. It has been mooted that this is due to not understanding the level of automation and computers on the aircraft. Dont know how many computer resets you can do on a 146/RJ, you have a heap on the 320.

:rolleyes:

rtforu

4th Jan 2005, 02:25

I don't think so Mr B. I would never work for an airline that fleeced its pilots for an endorsment. Trust me, its only the start. I hear you have to provide your own Jepps these days and pay for the update service as well. I wonder how long it will be before they start charging for your IR renewal, could probably turn a nice profit there!

Pretty demoralising wouldn't you say. I mean, why not get walked on a little more. If your pride allows you to do this type of thing, if you are happy to be devalued to that extent, then good for you. Frankly I would do something else if I had an employer like that.

oicur12

4th Jan 2005, 02:26

"Dont know how many computer resets you can do on a 146/RJ, you have a heap on the 320. "

Therefore makes it really tricky to fly huh?
What nonsense.

New A320's, unlike the old Ansett aircraft, do not need the cb concerto after nearly every start.

Mr.Buzzy

4th Jan 2005, 03:42

RTFORU,
We dont pay for our Jepps, or ammendments, or whatever. Yes agreed, we no longer work on the gravy train of 20 years ago. Plenty of things have changed. Id just be careful blaming LC pilots of today for the state of affairs. Look about at almost every other industy and realise that globally employers are having their way with staff.

So... your son or daughter has just gained the experience to apply to the airlines and he or she doenst have HSC. What would your honest advice to him or her be?

Or your son or daughter missed out at QF after 2 attempts? Would you still spruke off about paying for endorsements? Would you be happy to see them overtaken by thousands of pilots globally that would be more than willing to guarantee some return of service, beit through training bonds, training wages or funding the training personally?

Pete Conrad

4th Jan 2005, 03:45

commander assdama is incapable of a logical and reasoned discussion, a search through his posts when he once was thumpa, but got banned for being a bottom dweller, and now since his name change to assdama would reveal that.

He's the kind of arrogant preek that would eat CRM for breakfast, for his own sake, he should be happy that he got into Nopulse when he did, as the QF OPQ would of knocked him out for sure.

Assdama, for your own sake, you should really shut your mouth, as you are on a better deal now than you were before, your only giving your mates a bad name.

Take a walk assdama, a very big one, and while your there, your comments really do match whats in your lower intestine.....

spinout

4th Jan 2005, 03:58

Mr Buzzy;

Have things changed in your agreement...

"6.13 To maintain current Jeppesen flight documentation at your expense."

:rolleyes:

Mr.Buzzy

4th Jan 2005, 04:37

Spinout, that doesnt apply to our crowd.:ok:

bbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Johhny Utah

4th Jan 2005, 05:50

I'd like to see your numbers on that one DhD - I have a feeling that they're a little out of kilter...

However, I'll be happy for you to prove me wrong - fire away ;)

rtforu

4th Jan 2005, 06:58

Yes agreed, we no longer work on the gravy train of 20 years ago.

Well that kind of says it all MR B, You have devalued yourself. You finally believe the crap these guys have told you about your self worth. Do you really think that the executives would gladly fall on their swords, or as you would put it, jump off the gravy train. I think not. No, they rely on the stupidity of pilots to hock their rear ends.

To answer your question regarding sons and daughters, thats easy. Firstly, I would not advise my kids to go into aviation in the first place.

Secondly, If they did it anyway, I would do as I have always done, I would look out for them. What I mean by that is that I would make sure they were not being taken advantage of by unscrupulous people. I would advise them to seek out an airline that didn't ask them to put themselves in debt, I would tell them that if that meant going and getting their HSC, then do it. I would probably also point out to them that if they had missed out on QF or CX or any other descent airline, then maybe there's a message in that.

I'm sorry, I just can't go along with this LCC crap. Fine, if you want to run an airline on the cheap go for for it but don't exploit desperate people who get sucked up in the romance of flying and take their last dollar so that you can pump up your bottom line!

rescue 1

4th Jan 2005, 09:24

SWH - its the B717 operation that's moving, not the A320. So my money is still with NJS.

I think that in todays market Pilots are skipping their bond (in legacy airlines) and this has lead LCC's the need to get endorsement costs upfront.

Mr.Buzzy

4th Jan 2005, 10:35

Whilst respecting your opinion RTFORU, speaking only from a personal point of view, I dont feel de-valued and neither do I measure my "self worth" on the amount of money paid into my bank account.
Im sorry that you would advise against family joining this industry. Plenty of people still earn a great living from it. Id support my kids in aviation but as you suggested a safety net is a wise move.
You also mentioned that you would recommend CX, QF or any decent airline as you put it. The point is that QF are asking for endorsement costs through Jet* and the mainline training wage system. Again with respect, do any of us honestly believe that free endorsements are here to stay in world where honesty and goodwill are measured by a metal detector?

bbbbzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbzzzzzzzzz

Johhny Utah

4th Jan 2005, 23:39

How does a training wage paid whilst undertaking ground school subjects suddenly become the equivalent of a ~$30K endorsement? Especially given that once checked to line the pay goes to full pay scale?
By my reckoning, the difference between training wage & wage once checked to line is somewhere in the order of $1500 per fortnight (gross), multiplied by about 6 fortnights = $9000. (based on a training wage of ~$38K)
As for losing out once checked to line as far as pay scales go - most QF SO's would earn ~$80K in their first year, before having it rise to 6 figures during their second year - obviously not inferior to the LCC as that rate is very similar to what the guys at the LCC's seem to be happy to accept as their wages.