Cattle Mustering incl Training, Job Prospects (!) etc etc

[sandman_64]

i will be completing my cpl helicopter in the near future, and have heard that cattle round up in northern australia is g good way to build hours.

can someone enlighten me on this, and how to get in contact with the right people to talk to regarding potential employment

thanks in advance

[imabell]

hi sandman
build up hours for what?
there are always jobs in the cattle industry
but the usual prerequisite is a rural background in australia. don't despair though many a kiwi has started his flying career over here. the cattle industry is one of the best for helicopter piots and if you can get a start the money is better than any where.(nearly), on top of that it's great fun and raises your skill level rapidly.
most of the guys that live and work in the outback permanently are some of the best pilots you could hope to get in a machine with. if we could manage to coerce some of these blokes away from the bush the industry will do well. there is a lot of wasted talent out there. good luck to you if you give it a go.

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your too high,your too low, your too fast your too slow

[This message has been edited by imabell (edited 11 June 2001).]

[Pac Rotors]

Imabell

I know they use R-22s and Bell 47s for mustering. Do they use other types for it as well. Just wondering.

[rotorque]

Hi guys,

Pac' to give you an answer to your question, most Queenslanders seem to use H300's (or whatever they are called now), where as in the NT and top WA they use the R22 almost exclusively now.
I left the NT about 3 years ago now and miss it dearly, I was fortunate enough to operate B47's and KH4's most of the time. They don't seem to go for the 47 anymore due to the fact that most stations have got to provide the fuel for each muster. Obviously you can't beat the fuel flow of a robbie. Most of the mining work is still done in 47's and KH4's.

Sandman', the mustering industry is a little bit clicky. You have to be able to walk the walk and talk the talk, so to speek. Most mustering pilots have come from a cattle background. It is the only way that they can get credibility from station managers and workers. The other problem now is that the industry is crowded. There are a large number of commercial operators and private blokes out there so you have to know your stuff. The stations and companies can't afford to have pilots that are going to push cattle to hard, or miss large numbers etc, the dollar is too tight for that.

Don't get me wrong, there are still oportunities, but they are harder to find now. The mustering industry is a different place these days. But the Aussie dollar is better for live export and everyone knows the foot and mouth problem overseas, so there should be some movement in the industry. Even if you don't get into chasing cattle around there is always mining, survey, conservation commission, DPI&F, bush fire and tourist work in the top end that will keep pilots coming through the ranks.

Don't be too discouraged, probably 80% of the pilots working in Australia have come from the bush.

Cheers

[widgeon]

I guess in NZ it would be sheep chasing ?. That could have all sorts of other connotations though LOL.

[Vortex what...ouch!]

What are the licencing requirements for cattle mustering. Min CPL I believe?



------------------
The idea of not being able to stop before I land is scarey.

[sandman_64]

THANKS FOR THE INPUT, ESPECIALLY THAT OF ROTORQUE, IT HAS GIVEN SOME FOOD FOR THOUGHT, WITH THE OPTIONS IN THE MINING AND CONSERVATION DEPARTMENT ETC, THE BIGGEST PROBLEM IS KNOWING WHERE TO START ONCE COMPLETING MY TRAINING AS TO WHERE TO GO TO OBTAIN WORK ON LIMITED HOURS AND EXPERINCE THAT WILL PUT ME IN GOOD STEAD TO GAIN EXPERINCE AND THE GOOD MONEY THAT IS STARTING TO APPEAR FURTHER ABROAD. NEW ZEALAND IS A SMALL COUNTRY WILL GOOD BUT LIMITED OPPERTUNITY FOR THE JUNIOR HELO PILOT, WITH A STRONG WHO YOU KNOW INFLUENCE, AND WITH THE LARGER NUMBERS OF JUNIORS COMING THRU, THE OPTION OF OVERSEAS ATTRACTIONS SEEM TO BE THE WAY TO GO, TO GET THE FOOT IN THE DOOR

ONCE AGAIN THANKS FOR THE COMMENTS MUCH APPRECIATED

[rotorque]

Vortex..What',

It's been a while, but as I remember it you obviously require a CPL if you are to work for a mustering company. There are plenty of pilots out there operating privately with a vested interest in the property they are working on.

You will also require a mustering ticket. I think it's a rating, not an endorsement. the rating is 10 hours with a suitably qualified mustering pilot. You will also need a low level endorsment but I can't remember the numbers etc for that one. Once you have those things your right to go. One thing to remember is that the rating has a currency requirement as well, I think it's 50 hours in a 365 day period but I can't be sure.

Different companies have their own in house requirements that you will need to satisfy as well.

Hope this helps, if not, all the information is in the appropriate books. (ie: CAO's)

Cheers mate

[talkturn]

One other thing - I am sure you have seen The Discovery Channel documentary on mustering. They seemed to indicate that a mustering pilot requires a couple of years of ground mustering experience first.
Check it out.
Good luck (you lunatic)

[Helibro]

Could I make the following suggestions regarding your training since you are planning to fly in oz once you have your NZ CPL (H).

Complete your training with as much Pilot in Command time as possible.

Make sure that all low flying that you do is specifically logged as low flying and if possible get your instructor to indorse you logbook saying that you have completed X amount of low flying hours (ideally the amount required for the aussie low flying rating)

Obtain a H300 and R22 rating within your CPL training to minimise costs.

Contact CASA now and check out what flight experience you need for the aussie CPL and make sure that you cover all of the CASA CPL(H) requirement within your NZ CPL

Also in addition to the above don’t get pressured into flying and not logging hours once in the mustering scene. Not a good start to your career.

Good luck!

[imabell]

sandman

you need 100 hours pilot in command before you can be issued with a mustering endorsement, it is an endorsement.

you need a minimum of ten hours low flying training in helicopters to be issued with a low flying approval. this approval allows you to fly below five hundred feet (the legal limit) while you are working only and is not a blanket approval to go anywhere at this height.

h300 types come and go, unfortunatley.

there are a few 300's about but nowhere in the numbers of the past.there are 300's in the kimberly region and the territory.

the 47 has had a bit of a come back in central australia but as the grazier supplies the fuel he dictates the type. if the operator supplied the fuel the grazier would use any thing that flies.

there are some companies that will employ you and give you extensive training and there are others that will exploit you, just like anywhere.

you only need a private pilots licence to be eligible for a mustering approval but you are only able to muster on the private property of your employer. this rule is broken constantly and makes life difficult for the commercial operator.

that's another story

have fun

again, good luck

[This message has been edited by imabell (edited 12 June 2001).]

[Outside Loop]

Sandman,

Here are a couple more home truths.

You can't just rock up to an operator log book under arm with your CPLH,Low level and mustering endorsements,and expect to be put to immediate work.

A basic license with appropriate endorsements is basically a license to learn.

You will need to wedge your foot in the door by proving that you are hard working,safe and level headed, willing to learn, capable of doing the job,and that you are a team player. Above all else you must be keen. On top of all this you must also be a skilled diplomat.

Most sucessful green pilots do this by being there to help out.

If an operator believes that you have potential you may be employed as a "slave".

In this time you get to do all the menial tasks that nobody else wants to
do. It is important that you make as much use of this oppertunity as possible to learn about your machine.Be in the hanger, help the engineers,learn do a daily properly, learn the correct names for all parts and what goes wrong with them.

Your employer will recognise the knowledge you have gained and with the right attitude may then be given the chance to progress.

The ten hours of training that you did for your mustering endorsement does not adequately prepare you for the real thing.Safe flying practises are of paramount importance as is knowing how to tackle the job at hand.Many people describe a muster as a giant game of chess. The paddock being the board and the thousand or so animals represent the moving pieces.

The average person will fly with a senior pilot (Dual controls) for anywhere up to Two Hundred hours on mustering operations. He must demonstrate sound knowledge, safe practises and a little bit of cattle sense before being assigned a machine and a place in a muster. Once solo a training pilot will compliment one or two others on a job so that further guidance can be given. (sometimes at the expense of the operator). When deemed competent, then and only then will you be given the chance to turn up at a property by your self and practise your diplomatic skills.

If an operator senses that your primary objective is to get a few hours together then move on, he will not waste his time with you.

I am not writing this to discourage you, merely to better arm you with the knowledge you will need if you wish to proceed down this line.

Be prepared to work hard and it could be very rewarding.

[automan]

Hi all,

just a quick question, how difficult is it to get in to cattle mustering in the Australian outback, what sort of hours are required , do you need a cattle mustering rating ?.

cheers

Andrew

[w_ocker]

G'day,

Firstly, I'm not a mustering driver, so am just repeating what I've heard. Mustering generally does not require many hours, you pick them up along the way. It does require an endorsement. The thing is, its pretty unlikely that you'd get a look in with no prior involvement in the Australian beef industry. The important thing is having "cattle sense" and knowing how to move beasts in conjunction with the ground team and not overstress the animals. For this reason, many mustering pilots were station ringers (ground-based cattle men) prior to becoming pilots.
As I said, I'm not one, but am passing on what I know. Hopefully you'll get an answer from "the real thing", but I reckon they are all too busy out there flying their bums off and having a great time to be sitting around surfing the net. Lucky ******s!

Good luck Auto.

w_ocker

[Whirlybird]

automan,

I asked an Australian pilot about this and was told the same thing; that you had to know about cattle first.

[Nigel Osborn]

You do need a low level and mustering endorsement. If you have done fire water bombing or ag work or other low level flying, that will generally keep CASA happy. Various places can provide mustering training.
Generally the best or most popular mustering pilots have worked cattle for years on stations, jackerooing or whatever. However like all flying jobs it is a case of supply and demand. If there is a shortage of experienced pilots, then very low time pilots are often employed. As usual being in the area and readily available helps but get the paper qualifications first and be ready to fly dawn to dusk.:rolleyes:

[Draco]

From film footage that I have seen, they spend much of their time in the avoid curve too, so a strong stomach is probably required too.

[Hone22]

:) Ahhhh! mustering pilots operating in the avoid curve, I have read of accidents along the lines of


Mad cow tried to leap into cockpit ................ac destroyed in subsequent crash.


or


Stones flicked up by frightened stock went into tail/main rotor..........ac destroyed in subsequent crash.

or

xxxxxxx broke/departed ac while at low level ......................ac destroyed in subsequent crash. ATSB determined cause of xxxxx breaking/departing ac due to x,000hrs over and above those recorded in the ac log being the actual airframe flight hrs.


Like most, there are some good un's & some bad un's out there.


A good friend of mine with 1000's hrs of mustering said everyone should do it for a while as it helps get all the testosterone out of the system and they are more restrained thereafter (one hopes :D ).

[sprocket]

Yes I have heard over the years that stockmen or those who are familiar with mooies or can think like them, are generally preferred. They have a knack for reading cows minds from a distance.

Hone22: Another legend from the bad old days was when a 47 pilot got one of his skids jammed right up the rear end of a cantankerous scrub bull. He had an interesting time trying to pull the curved part of the skid out because of its angle. :eek: Apparently he even managed to lift the bulls rear legs off the ground while it was flailing around. :D

[RotorHorn]

ouch! :eek: :eek:

There's usually a program on Discovery Wings or the like entitled "Dead Mans Curve" all about the mustering fraternity.

I saw one guy doing his preflight checks on the tail rotor with his headset on, the headset wire at full stretch from the cockpit and the rotors running that looked really dodgy to me!!

Still - wouldn't mind having a go.

But I think as others have mentioned, they prefer you to be a cattlehand first and a pilot second.

[nardoo]

I started out as a mustering pilot and yes I was a stockman in a previous life (before aviation) so I got "in" very quickly compared to some other guys I have known. Most of the operators prefer to employ experienced mustering pilots (of course) but when the supply is short they will take on a guy with the right background and attitude. The attitude is thats its easier to make a cowboy a pilot than it is to make a pilot a cowboy. I dont mean cowboy in the rogue pilot sence of the word, but in the cattleman context.
However, I know of several guys who were not of the typical mould but still given a start with mustering companies in OZ. In those cases it was a matter of right time, right place and right attitude. Dont let anyone tell you it cant be done, if it was easy everyone would be doing it right? So if you want it, find out what you need to do and go get it!
Good luck, enjoy the ride. Its a good one.

[Autorotate]

Hone22

I was talking to an old friend today, ex mustering pilot who used to fly at VRD in the Territory. He was telling me about a great day that had some explaining at the end. He had to go back and tell the boss he had written off the machine because he had a birdstrike. The boss spent ages wracking his brain trying to figure out why he had written off the machine, until he explained that the bird was still in the tree, and thats why the machine was written off. :D

Autorotate.

[ias]

I've just completed my CPL(H) and now of course on on the hunt for hours, as you do.

I'm wanting to try my hand at mustering in oz, can anyone inform me of whats involved in a rating and if there are anyjobs or good www links to find one?

[automan]

Ive done a lot of research about job hunting,there is jobs in the N.T in aussie but the feedback im getting is get a immigration visa and basically turn up at the start of the season with your swag and if ya face fits your in.

automan.

[Steve76]

Fat chance lads,

Unless you have cattle country in the UK you will NEVER get work mustering in OZ. Regardless of immigration status, rocking up at the beginning of the season will have you pushing a broom for free for one year.
No brahmin time, no fly. No workshop slaving, no flying either. It takes a long time to get cattle and trust up with the NT operators.

[Autorotate]

Steve76

Actually I have to correct you regarding having cattle experience. I have just spent the last week with HeliMuster at VRD in NT and they WILL take trainee pilots (Slaves they are called) that havent worked with cattle before. In fact one of the new owners of the company didnt come from a rural background.

It is preferred but not a must have. The attitude is the big thing and safety orientated is the other, as well as the low level endorsement and also an R-22 safety course attendance. Since the new owners took over, John and Mark, they have emphasised the safety aspect and have some fantastic plans for the future. They are now flying 14 R-22s and a sole Bell 47.

I went out with them both in the 47 and the 22 and its amazing what these guys can do with an aircraft. Email me and will give you a run down if you like on the modern day Heli Muster.

For those wanting to get into the mustering game, my suggestion is go with one of the bigger companies such as Heli Muster, but they wont let you go flying solo with the cattle until you have had 500 hrs dual from one of the training pilots.

Its a great industry and yes they do operate in the dead mans curve most of the time but John and team really emphasise emergency procedures training and they do a lot of it, again and again and again. Thats why John has over 19500 hrs mustering and the majority of his pilots, except the young ones, have over 8000 hrs.

Hope that helps.

Autorotate.

[Steve76]

Autorotate,

I will have to disagree completely with you. No offence intended.

After 2yrs flying for NAH (aka: the dreaded opposition...) I know exactly what I am talking about. In fact this time last year I hitched a lift into KG in Marks truck...

What is mustering all about?

A) Firstly mustering is great fun but it has a "used by" date. Its a go nowhere career. Ask Mark.
B) Mustering is about being able to read cattle and get on with the property owners. HM might say that they take guys with no cattle experience but behind your back they will say the exact opposite. Look at the stats for the pilots and the evidence is there before you.
C) It is about flying all day, logging half the time, not logging ferries and BS the maintenance release. Mustering pilots pull the arse out of the robbie while ignoring all the limitations imposed by Frank and Lycoming. That fancy flying is just that: Fancy. However, take a moment to consider the G loading, the stress and the overspeeds and it won't seem so grand.

Please don't give the impression to these foreign pilots that they can get into this industry easily. It takes a lot of ringing time and plenty of slave labour (literally) and there are NO promises.

Despite the rosy picture painted at HM, they are just the same as the rest. I can give you e-mail addresses of past and present employees too.

Onya,
Steve76 :D

[Autorotate]

Steve76

Fair enough, no offence taken. I can only go by what I am told from the people I speak to. Two of the three trainee pilots that were there the other day didnt come from rural backgrounds and yet they were given jobs.

Because CASA is breathing down the industry's throat now they have to be a lot squeakier than before which is why I would say that HM is trying to change the way they do business, especially now that they have new owners. Again I can only go by what I have seen and heard. Yes there are a lot of idiots in the mustering industry that deserve to be shut down but there are also a few that are trying to get back on the straight and narrow.

NAH is one that I know have had problems and their Chief Engineer quit the other day. Read between the lines on that one. HM and many others also have to start looking at other places to get pilots as many of the older guys are looking at hanging up their hats, and the bush has changed with not a lot of guys wanting to fork out the money to get a licence.

I am not trying to paint a rosy picture for the overseas guys, just trying to say that it is not a totally closed shop from those that I have spoken to. I would certainly say dont just turn up and hope to get a job, thats too much of a risk to take. I have also spoken to many present and past employees on the mustering, as as you say, some speak good and some speak bad of it.

Just my two cents worth.

Autorotate.

[Steve76]

Good onya Auto :D
Well rebutted,
Safe and fun flying.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Whilst in that beautiful city of Paris last week, waiting for my commanding officeress to select which dress made her look slimmer, bored out of my skull I flicked through a few of the many TV channels that were on offer, I came upon a short film about Mustering in the outback, now being slightly interested I turned up the sound and low, that distinctive noise of R22 metal being thrashed hooked me, these guys who fly these things seem like they have more fun than I did whilst in Paris, if you know what I mean!!! :D :D

[NigD2]

VFR

I think I saw the same Oz mustering programme on Sky a while back.

I smiled a little at the huge aborigine pilot who had to auto from 50ft because his left handed marksman knocked the fuel shut off lever with his elbow.

Quality bit of fun flying!!

NigD

[SFHeliguy]

All,

BACKGROUND

I'm just another corporate dingaling thinking about quitting his day job and flying for a living. I've got about 200 hours single engine fixed and just got my heli add on in R22's and have about 70 hours in R22s. I'm planning on purchasing and commuting in an R22 this year so by this time next year, I'll have around 200 hours R22 and 400 hours TT. I also plan to get my commercial license this year.

PROPOSED PATH

Next year, I'm going to be looking for the best way (or if there are any ways) to get a bunch of commercial time and build hours. I'm not as interested in the CFI route but will do that if it's the only way. I'm hoping instead that with the hours above, I can give a try at cattle mustering or some other time building activity. I'm thinking cattle mustering because (from what little I know) it sounds like:

- It's all done in R22's
- It's nasty conditions (so all of you that have the hours won't bother)
- It pays kinda lousey

QUESTIONS

1. Is 400 Total Time with 200 in R22's + FAA commercial enough to get me into a cattle mustering job?

2. Is there another choice that I'm missing?

3. I've heard there's a requirement for a " Mustering & Low Level
Endorsement"? What is it and how do I get it?

4. What kind of conditions should I expect?

5. What kind of pay should I expect?

6. Any other thoughts?

thanks in advance.



matthew

:O

[MightyGem]

Not sure what it's like in the States, but in Australia they generally like you have done the cowboy bit on the ground, so that you know how cows think.

[WLM]

Where are you looking at doing your mustering? If it is in Australia, your chance of getting into the industry are NIL. Station owners will not employ a person without station experience. The norm is for an experienced station hand to be sponsored for his pilot's licence in the best scenario, or pay for his/her licence in the worst case. Do not think for one minute that cattle mustering is easy, as you will be flying in the Dead man curve at all time. Cattle is very tricky to work and have induced many incidents/accidents for low time pilots. Australia leads the way in stock mustering. I have great respect for these pilots for their flying ability, and speak from first hand experience, having had the privilege to be shown what to and not to do in extreme situations. Having said all that, my main flying is in Tourism, a much safer and 9-5 environment. Good luck.:O

[bigruss]

SFHeliguy re Mustering

you would be advised to try another road to experience. i suggest tourism. as already mentioned usually only people with an extensive stock background on large north australian cattle properties are employed. of course not always the rule, there is sometimes the right place and the right time scenario but i dont like your chances.
save yourself some trouble and look elsewhere

all the same best of luck and maybe we'll see you out here swallowing dust with the rest of us
cheers

[BlenderPilot]

I really don't think chasing cows in a piston ship at sea level with not too much weight onboard could be really difficult, sure for a cowboy turned pilot it could probably be dangerous, but for a pro pilot it think it could only be fun, at least for the first 20 hours or so.

Anyway it seems to me that they want to reserve those jobs for cowboys turned pilots, so for starters why not go the Tuna Spotting road for a while? You will get to travel and maybe you can find one of those cool jobs in Panama or something, also the pay is not bad I have friends who make about 4,000 dollars a month doing it, they are working in the Spanish ships that dock here in Mexico, and after 500 hours or so they might even put you in a 206 (the military version).

Just a suggestion.

[bigruss]

SF Heliguy re mustering

Matthew i am sorry if my previous reply seemed a bit abrupt on reflection.

Most of the Mustering in Australia is done using R22's, there are also a few H269C/CB's around.

The nasty conditions depend on your outlook. An airconditioned room or a swag under the stars now and then is really not too bad. You never have to cook for yourself or mow a lawn and i haven't seen too many places where there is no cold beer.

The pay usually is pretty lousy in most jobs when you start at the bottom but i think if you got a start full time flying and were able to do 6 or 7 hundred hours in your first year you would probably be able to earn about $28,000 aussie dollars. after that it goes commensurate with what you are able to offer ie. experience, clients who follow you, loyalty and other plus factors. The top earners usually do about 1300 hours per year and make around $100,000 aussie dollars

On to your questions

1/ 400 hours total time with 200 on Robbies might get you a start with a large mustering company as you should be able to conduct basic manouvering safely.

2/ as for another choice see blender

3/ The low level endorsement you can get at most flying schools over here, its 18 years since i did mine but i think its only about 5 hours. For the mustering endorsement some schools can do them and it is 10 hours, but most operators of any size have a pilot on staff who is an approved pilot to give mustering training. What would happen usually is that you would spend 300 to 400 hours with this pilot before he would consider you competent enough to release. When you were fully endorsed you would usually still have to stay under close supervision and work for you would be carefully selected. It takes most people about 1000 hours before they are competent enough to get by on their own( by that i mean not bending the machine and themselves or stuffing up the job and loosing a client)

4/ The conditions i have spoken on a bit already but this is 2003 and most people like to be comfortable. There are always a few A####holes wherever you go but most people will give you as good as they've got.

5/ pay see above

6/ My thoughts Matthew are that you should really try another line.
I have been mustering for 18 years and have flown 14,000 hours. I have trained for mustering 12 pilots at considerable effort and time and it is always a source of great disapointment for me to learn that i have spent around 2 years training and watching and monitoring and checking and living with these guys turning them into a competent and capable musterer to see some of them move on after they have got 2 or 3 thousand hours. I suppose thats the way of the world but one way to get more years for your efforts of training is to target for training people who are more likely to stay the distance, ie stockmen who have an interest in the industry and who are used to the lifestyle and already know half the job.

Having said all that most people will respect effort and if you were truly committed to our industry i feel sure you would get a start somewhere.

Best of luck

[pohm1]

Top earners doing 1300 hours per year better hang on to some of that $100,000 to pay the fine for busting their 1200 hrs per year flight limit! Then again this is mustering that we're talking about

[bigruss]

To pohm 1
for your information old mate i am holding in my hot little hand CASA instrument 521/02 and you might be interested in
paragraph 5.1 (a)(iii) if the pilot has had a period of 42 consecutive days free of piloting or other aviation related duty during that period ---- 1400 hours in any consecutive 365 days

[pohm1]

How does that work! You take 6 weeks off leaving you 46 working weeks, and then you're allowed to cram an extra 200hrs in?

Also, does Ppruning count as aviation related duties?

[bigruss]

to pohm 1

I'm to slow at typing to tap it all out but an experienced pilot is allowed to do
1/ 100 hours in any 16 day period if he has 2 days off in that period.
2/ 1200 hours in 365 days if he dosen't have 42 days free of duty and 1400 hours if he has the 42 days off.

for daily total he can fly the hours of daylight plus an additional half hour for the extent of duty time


an entry level pilot can do
1/ 10 hours in a day
2/120 hours in 30 days
3/ 1200 hours in 365 days

this might seem a lot but i can assure you its very good in practise and when in the groove not a poblem

[pohm1]

Rather you than me. 5 hours straight in a jetty and I'm stiff and sore, but I suppose it all comes with experience. After 10 hours in an R22 do you sleep in a seated position?

[SFHeliguy]

I really do appreciate all the advice. I have to confess that I don't have as much interest in cattle as I do in flying. I like the idea of being able to fly all day, every day. I also enjoy camping/sleeping out under the stars and roughing it. Money isn't as important as I've got a bunch.

Big Russ

No appology needed. It sounds like you've got the real story going. Interesting that I'd be spending 300 hours with another pilot to get trained...... That seems like a lot. I must be missing the complexity of the job..... I really don't mean to be insulting here but aren't we just talking about flying helicopters and hearding cattle? Is the type of low level flying the large part of this or is there a total picture that includes.....(I'm totally guessing here)

Cattle Specific

- knowledge of cattle
- knowledge of the industry
- Mustering objectives (is it just moving them from point a to point b?)
- maybe "how to heard cattle effectively without trama"?
- other?

Flying Specific

- adjustment to all dead mans curve flying
- specific techniques
- knowledge of the terrain

Don't feel like you need to answer but I'm still interested. The idea of being mostly alone works for me. The idea of dealing with tourists......well..... I might just stick to flying from my home in the city to my property in the country :)

[bigruss]

SFHeliguy

I wish i had a bunch of money

you are are right and there is a total picture like any job.

The low level flying is no big deal, most of the time you are around 200 ft agl and travelling at around 50 knots but occasionaly you have to place the machine in a certain position to make the stock do what you want.
You have to be able to be at this critical point with speed and acuracy ASAP.
The big thing is knowing where this CP is and it takes a lot of training to recognise that, the other thing is being able to handle the machine skilfully enougn to achieve the CP.

To give you an idea a usual muster in north australia could be with 2500 head of cattle in a paddock that is 25 kms wide and 30 kms long thats if there is a fence. There would be 1 or 2 helicopters and a stock camp of around 7 men mounted on horses and bikes. The cattle would be worth about $1,000,000 and are a valuable asset that have to be got in and processed ie. some would go to market and some branded , that sort of thing. If the pilot makes a bad decision it is possible to lose all the cattle back into the paddock and really wreck your day. If this should happen it costs a lot of money, the calves get mismothered, the cattle get stuffed up and wont respond to the helicopter the next muster. you would have to leave that muster for at least 2 weeks to give the cattle time to settle down before you could try again and your success rate would not be so hot. A muster like this can take 12 hours of chopper time at $400.00 ph, 7 men at $200.00 per day each.
May not be be big figures in the rest of the world but everything is relative.
Competion is pretty fierce and if you stuff up the stations will very quickly get somene else. A fair few of them have done many thousands of hours as a passenger mustering and are able to recognise when things are going wrong, vise versa some cattle are pretty well unmusterable and need shooting so there are a lot of variables.
We like to start pilots off carefully if possible and get them as competent as we can.
300 hours would usually only take 3 or 4 months

[Heliport]

bigruss

Fascinating stuff!
You should post more often. :D

Heliport

[vorticey]

ive only been in the territory for 15 months but during the season there is at least a pilot a week asking my work for a job mustering. i was one of them.
the 300 hours big russ talks about also includes getting to know the station owners, earning their trust (ability to make them money) so they might fork out that $400 per hour for YOUR time.
i do the tourist thing, not as much hours a season but still not bad either, plus it's 8 to 5 not dawn till dusk. yes i have been mustering quite a few times and the FUN definantly wears off after a (:yuk: ) while.

[pohm1]

What about sunrise/sunset flights? They are popular with the tourists at Ayers Rock, (not so popular with the pilot who does the daily inspection for sunrise though!)

[the wizard of auz]

Trust me, I speak from experiance. You do not want anything to do with cattle, station hands, dust, remote locations and wizzing around in that part of the graph that is hatched. along with this goes flys in unimaginable quantitys, weird cooks, sleeping with all sorts of strange wild life in your swag, the unbearable heat, thermals that will make your eyes bulge, the lack of wimen, the beer that aint the one you normally drink and so on.............. God I love my job, I just wouldnt recomend it to anyone. :D

[vorticey]

restricted by noise:(

[Hilico]

There's a Discovery Channel programme about cattle mustering in Australia. It was on at 2300 on Christmas Eve and was one of the best things about Christmas.

It mentioned an annual flying total of 1500 hours (my copy of CAP371 wilted in my hands). The people being interviewed were continually waving flies away. From the few hours I have in R22s I remember that if I could see the cyclic move I was overdoing it, but in the footage the program had it was leaving weals on both the pilot's thighs simultaneously. It showed them eating breakfast in the dark, and it was fried calfs' brains. One bloke had been a ground-based cowboy for six years before his Dad, the station owner, would pay for his training. Listening between the lines, it was a (beep) hard job.

But flying is flying...

[Vortex what...ouch!]

I remember watching that program. Very good.

There was a new guy who unfortunately got himself into vortex ring and stuffed it in. Managed to walk away from it but it was very sobering to see the pics of the R22 afterwards.

I came away from watching it with the utmost respect for these guys.
:cool:

[SFHeliguy]

OK, OK, Allright already :O

So, New posting:

All,

I'm interested in a reasonable hamster mustering job in Northern California.

Does anyone know how I get started?

All kidding aside, thanks to everyone for the comments. I'm going to go back to trying to determine what's the possibility for teaching....

matthew

[advancing_blade]

Hi guys and gals

I am in the process of taking my CFI course here in the US. I have been given the task of preparing and researching the subject of "animal mustering" (all kinds), and would really appreciate some input from the good folks that have done it. I used to have an Aussie freind when I was in Canada, who told me of some of the work, pro's and cons. As a Brit' we don't get a lot of exposure to this skill. Any info that you think should be put in to a short talk would be welcomed. Also looking for a sort video file (20 - 30 seconds)

Thank you for your time

A_B

[Heliport]

bigruss has made some excellent posts in this topic.
Click here for one of the threads. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=81969&referrerid=30158) There may be others.

[jonnyg]

Don't know if it helps but "Discovery Channel" did an hour long special on animal mustering in Australia using Robinson22's, it was called "DEAD MANS CURVE", you could try contacting them.

[Flying Lawyer]

Here are a few pics from my days heli-mustering in the Northern Territory.

http://www.grosset.co.uk/Travel%20Writing/Australia/images/must-%26cattle4.JPG

http://www.grosset.co.uk/Travel%20Writing/Australia/images/must-%26cattle1.JPG

http://www.grosset.co.uk/Travel%20Writing/Australia/images/must-%26cattle3.JPG

There's an article here (http://www.grosset.co.uk/Travel%20Writing/Australia/muster.htm) that might help you. It's not an aviation site, but it might help 'set the scene' in your talk.

Tudor Owen
Then the phone rang and I woke up. ;)

[Blue Rotor Ronin]

Never heli-mustered but did plenty on bikes and horses.
Early mornings, late nights, use the fenceline, always drive to boreholes whenever possible and be prepared to not eat beef for a year once you finished your tour. Use your fellow jackaroo's (cowboy, to non convicts) toothbrush to kill the frogs in the Belgian sized shower, when you're near one in order to keep King Brown (not James), Tigers and Taipan snakes away. And take it from me that a one tonne bull can jump a five bar gate without knicking his testiculaaars as long as you leave it right at the last moment before jumping on the f!!!"*'/??S back. Good luck.

:ok:

[Steve76]

Ahhhh ... thanks Flying Lawyer for the shot of the ar$e end of a brahman (thats the cow team...:rolleyes: )
Brings tears to my eyes and repentance to my heart for ever thinking twins are boring ;)

Sure miss the country thou...absolutely unique and magical.
Aussie Aussie Aussie......

[skidbiter]

Steve76, sounds like you really miss that ar$e end of the brahman, must have been pretty lonely out there, things start looking mighty fine after a while

[advancing_blade]

This is all good and very much appreciated. As always the good folks who make up the Pprine community come up with the goods. This will certainly help me out.

Tudor, are you the sorted looking dude in the flight helmet?

Thanks

a_b


:cool:

[Flying Lawyer]

advancing_blade

I'm the one drinking coffee. http://www.grosset.co.uk/Travel%20Writing/Australia/images/must-smoko.JPG


Always read the small print. ;)

[advancing_blade]

Struth mate, I thought that was Mel Gibbson:D

P.S My mate (scot Milner, in case anyone has a contact) used to work in the Gulf of carpentria. What are the main regions in Aus that have mustering ops?

Thanks
a_b

[blithering]

Does anyone know how or where to get hold of a copy of "Dead Mans Curve" that jonnyg mentions? Is it the doco that was shot up at VRD in 1991?Have contacted DISCOVERY and they don't know anything about it.

[Heliport]

Threads merged.

[imabell]

advancing blade, i have copies of "the drivers" made by the abc and "empires of dust" both shot around vrd, (victoria river downs).

i have lots of footage, film and digital that i have shot over 25 years. many photo's.

pm me.

"dead mans curve" is a very bad title, the film was shot in the kimberlies, slingsby's, not the territory, i think i have a copy somewhere (a bad one).

all available on dvd soon, (this is not an ad).

any one who is interested i wll deliver for a small charge.:E

[Heliport]

I have a copy of Graeme's Empires of Dust.
It's a fascinating insight into heli-mustering in the Northern Territories - superb. :ok:
Graeme is a talented movie-maker as well as talented pilot - we're talking professional quality here, not amateur home movie.

The DVD isn't available commercially but Graeme will let Rotorheads have a copy for Aus$20 (plus postage). That's about £7 / US$13 and worth every penny in my view.

Highly recommended. :ok:

Heliport

[the wizard of auz]

Big russ, check ya PMs.

imabell, I'll have dvds of all the stuff ya have........send me a cost and an addy and I'll get the $$$$ to ya. Waiting eagerly.

Heliport, good job merging the threads. Plenty of good info there. :ok:

[Autorotate]

Imabell - Send me a copy and we'll do a review in Heli-Ops.

Ned


Ned

You could also review another DVD Graeme's made called Fly Sunshine.
It's an aerial tour of the Sunshine Coast - stunning scenery and with well-chosen background music.

Heliport

[imabell]

if you would like a dvd of the mustering film send your address to,

[email protected]

i am doing this at cost so i don't think it constitutes an ad.

graeme:ok: :ok:


Graeme
I asked if you'd be prepared to let Rotorheads have copies because there's always lots of interest in cattle-mustering, even by people like me who can only pipe-dream about doing it. That doesn't breach the advertising rules. No problem.

Heliport

[sprocket]

I can remember meeting Graeme years ago (now that I know who you are). He was talking about filming mustering in action back then but I never got to see any of the 'docos' so now's my chance. :D

Another email is on the way, imabell!

[belly tank]

This Morning on ABC Landline i just caught the last 20 mins of a little doco on Kestrel aviation at their training school at their station in Victoria, quite a good little doco. the students go out into the bush and learn the different facets of flying from navs to sling work, always good to get real life experiences than just in the circuit area, well done Kestrel!

[bellfest]

Going back to the original topic of this post, though it is a definite and invaluable asset to have stock experience, I think it is a load of bull@#$% to say that you won't make it in the mustering industry without it. Knowing cattle is 85% of the job but there is nothing to say that it cant be learnt in a helicopter. Mustering is a thinking game like anything else and it just takes a bit of nouse to work it out. I have met many mustering pilots and seen many go from scratch to very competent pilots that get the job done as well as anyone else and many of them have been from the suburbs. It is up to the companies management and chief pilots to ensure that the pilots are up to scratch and gain the confidence of the station managers. There is far too little dual training now days and the "culture" of the mustering industry is focused too much on cattle knowledge and not enough on airmanship and it is a very unique but undisciplined industry. The best pilots I know are mustering pilots (from the bush and the big smoke) but ask them how much dual mustering they did before they got a run. I was born and bred on a cattle station but I think that some blokes from the bush have got as much to learn as the city slickers

[imabell]

all the ordered mustering dvd's have been burnt and will be in the post soon.

sorry about the delay, i have been occupied elsewhere.

graeme:ok: :ok:

[the wizard of auz]

Bloody Bonza Mate, thanks for taking the time to do it.
I'll be eagerly waiting by the post box now. :ok:

[Bomber ARIS]

imabell

I appear to have missed the boat :{. Is there any chance that you'll be burning more DVDs in the future; if so, how much??

Thanks

Bomber

[Heliport]

The DVD is called Empires of Dust.
It's a fascinating insight into heli-mustering in the Northern Territories - superb. :ok:

Graeme is a talented movie-maker as well as talented pilot - we're talking professional quality here, not amateur home movie.

The DVD isn't available commercially but Graeme will let Rotorheads have a copy for Aus$20 (plus postage). That's about £7 / US$13 and worth every penny in my view.

Highly recommended.

Heliport

[Whirlybird]

Hey, any chance that I could get one too? Pleeeeaaassse!

[Flingwing207]

Perhaps you could post some ordering info for those of us who would like to get in on the second round?
:ok:

[rotorboater]

Put me down for a copy, where do I send my cheque or can you take paypal?

[finalchecksplease]

Same here, can you include me as well if you make another lot or have some left, many thanks

[blave]

I'm up for a copy as well.

Dave Blevins
San Jose, CA, USA

[Vfrpilotpb]

Imabell,

Me too, tell if can be done and I will post the acker, mooler, cash or greenbacks
Peter

[davehearn]

I CAN DO PAYPAL IF YOU ACCEPT, IF SO PUT ME DOWN FOR 1
DAVE

[mattychopper]

sure, count me in... love to see it

[HeliEng]

I'd be interested in a copy too.

[rotorcraig]

I'd like a copy if possible please

RC

[Steve76]

sure why not............
where do I sign up.

[RotorDompteur]

Me too! :p

RD

[Hughesy]

Count me in......It would have some great footage.
Have to get a copy of that. :ok:
Hughesy

[Karunch]

May I also have a copy please

[rjtjrt]

I'd love one and please put me down as a defenite if you can be bothered doing another run.

Also interested in a copy of the Discovery channel mustering short film (I understand it is shown at Frank Robinson's presentation's/lectures. If anyone knows where or how to get a copy I'd be grateful for the info.

JR

[pa42]

sorry I missed the first round, hoping for a second.

Paypal?

[email protected]

[Aser]

I would like to order one DVD , but... how?

Regards.

[2Sticks]

Bet there's lots of folks out there just waiting for an answer to this one and not bothering to say 'me too' - like I was.

Me too, please:=

[Heliport]

imabell hasn't been able to log in as often recently but will be back shortly.

If anyone wants the DVD, I suggest you add your names to the list.


Heliport

[B47]

Me too, please.

Can pay by Paypal.

[zhishengji751]

interested as well :)

Thanks.

just wait till he logs back on and see's the list :D

[flylow]

I also would like to be added to the list.

Thanks

[Simon10]

Yes, please, add me to the list.

Can I send cash to someone, somewhere, in say EUR or USD?

Simon10

[Marc Tower]

I'm in!

Thanks!

[Bravo73]

Yes, please.

Can PayPal (ideally).


B73

[vaqueroaero]

Now that sounds as though it would be really interesting, so sign me up aswell.

My boss has 28 cows and 1 Jetranger.............I feel a plan coming on !!

[HOSS 1]

I'm in for one !!!

HOSS 1

[the wizard of auz]

He he he, seems you might have stumbled onto a whole new industry to play with Graham.
Did ya get around to doing any posting yet?.

[John Abersynth]

Yeah Graaabs, you're neglecting your duties. We can't wait for the NEW posting!!!! Oh, and is that pad out there near your place an "official" HLS? Shall I make my approach to it like I'm INSTRUCTED to?

Johnno

[splodge]

A dvd for me too please!!

[Auschick]

count me in too please Graeme...thanks:D

[that chinese fella]

When you are ready graeme I''ll happily send cash your way for one.

Thanks

TCF

[rotorfan]

Ditto.

Hope you're making a bit on each disc. A few million sales could help overhaul a worn R22, eh? ;)

[rotorrookie]

If its possible I would like to have one as well...
How do we sort out the payment ??? paypal or what??

thanks in advange..:ok:

[the wizard of auz]

Graham, what happened to the DVD's?. did you get around to posting them or have you been a busy chap?

[sprocket]

He must be flat chat, I haven't seen mine yet. But still waiting patiently. Those Western Aussies are a pushy lot! :p

[sling]

Graeme,
I'd love a copy of the DVD if you're still producing... If so, let me know how and where to send the cash.. (or who to make the cheque too)

[CyclicWaggle]

Could I have one too please? :}

[RJS]

Like a copy of the DVD - can pay via Paypal or post cheque etc. When you get a sec as they seem popular !

Thanks !

UK

[Right Stuff]

I'd like to add my name to the somewhat large list too. Sounds like good stuff.

Thanks

[gadgetguru]

no matter what your wife told me on the phone that day - I'm still keen

& still thinking how to go about 'harry'
some interesting developments down that avenue

I'd like a copy too please, can deposit cash direct to account if preferred

[imabell]

thanks for your patience people,

i have sent out the first lot of dvd's.

for those who want a copy, and the response has been great, please email your address to,

[email protected]


we can sort out the payments later, maybe a rum or two.

the dvd will play on almost all players.

if you want to play it on a computer then you will have to find the codecs or down load the ulead dvd player off the ulead site.

sorry to have had such a delay but flying all over the place and other things have been in the way.

:ok: :ok: :ok:

[Bomber ARIS]

DVD arrived this morning. Big thank you to you Graeme. For one who dreams of a couple of seasons mustering in Aus 'twas just the tonic.

I'll get that rum to you when next I'm down under.

PPRuNE: reaches the parts other helicopter fora cannot

[MD900 Explorer]

Imabell

Graeme, I got the dvd yesterday and it makes for great viewing. :ok:

Is that really you in the blue and white helmet with "gillies" written on the ear portion of th helmet? You look sooo young :E

Thanks a million and i would recommend the viewing to anyone. Quality documentary. :ok:

MD:E

[JFDI]

Me too - if I'm not too late!!!
Paypal would be easiest way to part with cash...

[sprocket]

Mine arrived yesterday, I had almost forgotten about PU's pipe hanging out of his mouth when he flew.
Some compensation is in the mail Graeme. Thanks.

[the wizard of auz]

got mine and watched it about three mins after opening the post.
cheers Graham. top job!.
good to see some of my family history in there even. (Black pats cousin).
the low stress boys would have been having minor hearties watching this. ;)

[Flingwing207]

Great video!

Thanks, Graeme - I'll be keeping my eyes out for that certain thing to post back. Don't know what, or where I'll see it, but if you get some strange package form the USA, don't call the police!

[delta3]

Count me in too guys
Like to have a copy

[James85]

Hi all, I have recently finished my CPLH and am planning to head up the top end at the start of the wet. (I have missed the season this year, so I might aswell make some cash down here while I can).

My question is can you get a mustering endorsement before looking for a job? I am aware of the 100 hours command time before gaining the rating. This might seem silly but I have rang a few schools and been told, Sorry mate we cant do it cos you have actually got to go mustering to be checked out for the endorsement and we dont have the contacts to provide that service. (but advertise mustering training!!!!)

Do any of you working pilots/ground crew have any idea if there is an operator who can provide me with the mustering experience to get the endorsement, I have some ground cattle experience. Obviously this would have to be paid for, any Ideas of the going rate if I can find someone willing to do it.

Thanks for any replies or Pm me if you dont wish to post
Bye for now

[John Abersynth]

Mate. What you should do is ring Becker Helicopters at Maroochydore Airport. Mike will look after you.

[Heliport]

Welcome to the forum James85 - and congrats on your CPL(H). :ok:

Contact Graeme Gillies at Blue Tongue Helicopters - he posts here as imabell.

Graeme has been mustering for many years, is an experienced instructor and (I think) checks out mustering pilots.
[email protected]

Graeme has made a dvd about mustering in Oz, see link here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=136415).


John Abersynth seems to be plugging the Becker school a lot recently. You'll find a cross-section of conflicting opinions on that school on this thread: Oz schools (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=124748)
Suggest you read it and decide for yourself.

Good luck.

Heliport
Moderator

[automan]

Hi James ,

First of all you will need the 100 in comand before you start the heli muster course as you will know.

Up here in queensland there is a company that conducts training and issues the mustering endorsement there link is shown below.

http://www.reidheliwork.com.au/html/services/mustering.php

Feel free to get in contact with these guys.

I wish you luck , you may be aware that getting in to cattle mustering is who you know and not what you know.



Automan:ok:

[4ero]

Graeme Gillies, Ken Amis or Miles Tomkyns would be your guys.
(apologies for spelling errors in names)

Or as John Abersynth says...ring Mike, he'll look after your wallet.

[helimatt]

Some companys have pilots that have approvals to grant mustering endorsements. If you are lucky enough to get a start with one of these companys you should expect to get some good on the job training which you wont have to pay for. Trick as usual is to get your foot in the door and the only way to do that is to be there. From what I've seen, if an operator puts on a low time pilot, it is usually on the basis of them having some common sense, an ability to listen and learn and to be able to get along with the clients and the other pilots.
Good Luck:ok:

[imabell]

helimatt has got it right.

don't pay me or any one for a mustering endorsement.

the only thing you need initially is a low flying permit, this is not an endorsement. in the near future you will have to do this at a school. 5 hours minimum of low level training. it should have been done for you when you did your licence.

now you go and get a job and the company that hires you will give you many hours of training on the job with a mob of cattle and this will be more than enough to be issued with a mustering endorsement. and you will have saved a few thousand dollars.

if you were to come to a school to do the endorsement you would be just flying around an empty paddock and not benefitting any one but the schools bank account. mustering companies will give you the training their way regardless of you having done the training.

keep your money for travelling to the companies.

bellfest too makes a lot of good comment on the industry.

cattle mustering is a commom sense job and has been mastered by carpenters, gas fitters, chefs, truckies, plumbers, plasterers and people from every other trade. you have to be able to get on with people in a small community, you have to do your share etc. etc. most of all you have to be a good pilot first.

blokes from urban areas look at mustering as a means of accruing hours and moving on. blokes from the bush just want the cattle in the yards and want to stay in the bush.

all of these people are pretty good pilots but their ambitions are different.

i have had the pleasure of flying with mobs of exceptional pilots that have no dreams of going past the front gate of the cattle station. i have also seen the mustering industry turn out pilots that are now check and training captains on super pumas, chief pilots of major off shore companies and company owners that now employ aircrew. the bushies are in the cattle industry but most of us want to be in the aviation industry. you can do both.

the mustering industry is a career in its self and increases your skill levels amazingly in a short period of time because of the huge hours you fly. you have to treat it with respect as it has been the main source of work for hundreds and hundreds of successful pilots.

i was a vegetarian living on a tropical island in the carribean when i got my first mustering job in the gulf of carpentaria. from then on it was beef, beef and more beef without a piece of lettuce in sight. it was also the best fun i ever had.

fabulous country, and fabulous people.

any one can learn to be a cattle mustering helicopter pilot, you just have to persevere to get your big toe in the gate.

and don't spend your money on endorsements that you can get for nothing.

i would like to write some more but i can here the machine running.

graeme

[James85]

Thank you all for the replies, You have been a great help.

Jim

[Vfrpilotpb]

Empire of the Dust,

what a good DVD, arrived here in the UK today and already been watched by most of family, What a good deal of history it contains, the HEli bits are superb, but the history of that huge continent is something else, sadly we dont see much of that sort of down to earth history of that true giant of a Country.


trust me the cheque has gone into the UK first class post tonight 03.11/04

With the extra have a tube or two on old Vfr.

PeterR-B

[Whirlybird]

Mine arrived today too, and I completely agree with vfrpilotpb. Can I pay by PayPal please?

[Bravo73]

Mine also arrived a couple of days ago. Many thanks.

I might struggle to get a AUS$ cheque to Oz from the UK - can I second Whirlybird's request to, er, 'donate' by Paypal please?

[Col]

Maybe imabell should set up an e-commerce site and take credit cards?

[delta3]

Also got mine in the mail. Many thanks.

And also figure out way to pay from Belgium (trust on that matter is much appreciated)
A swift transfer would be easiest..

Delta3

[Aser]

Hi!
Got mine today!
Really a good history dvd , not too much helimustering but good enough.
I can deposit cash direct to account or by Paypal if you want.

Thanks!

Regards.
Aser

[rotorboater]

Got mine today - fantastic
Dosh is in the post and thanks.:D

[turbinetaxi]

Thanks again graeme, payment on the way as per my PM, great footage!!

TT

[Whirlybird]

Graeme,

Again, brilliant DVD. I hadn't heard from you, and wanted to pay you, so....I've sent the money by PayPal, with a bit extra for the hassle of you getting hold of it if you don't have a PayPal account. Er...you might have to get one, since I suspect once I've posted this other people will do the same thing. Anyway, thanks again!!!

[ROTORVATION]

Hi guys and gals of the rotary world.

I need some help. I little birdie told me that they had built up their helicopter hours by heading off to Australia many years back to do cattle mustering.

If your all like me you'll be asking - "What the hell is cattle mustering"? I've certainly never heared of it.

So I went to Ask Jeeves, and I saw a picture of a bloke in an R22 trying his best to round up cattle in the outback.

Now the thing is I've just got my basic Cpl (h) and obviously I need to get a few hours to get to the instructor role.
Just a few questions if I may.....

Has anybody done this before?

Do the CAA recognise the flying hours completed?

Does anybody have a contact to enquire about travelling across to Oz to do this type of work?

If you have experience, was it a safe operation & who did you fly for?

How many hours could be expected?

Am I likely to be sharing a tent with an iguana in the outback, or was the accomodation good?

Hope to hear from you soon guys, cause this is probably my last shot at getting those instructor hours.

I've paid my own way through to the commercial licence, and my girlfriend has been really patient and understanding over theyears. But it's not really fair on her to be spending all mine and her money on flying, when she has waited long enough for a house and the dreadred marriage bit!!

Hour building is required desperatly!!!! I only need 50 for pete's sake!!

Take it easy my pilot friends, and enjoy this summers flying.

Rotorvation.

:ok:

[Whirlybird]

Rotorvation,

I need some help. I little birdie told me that they had built up their helicopter hours by heading off to Australia many years back to do cattle mustering.


I wish!!!

OK, firstly, helicopter cattle mustering is quite common in Oz. It's like your picture, they use helicopters to round up cattle on those enormous ranches they have over there. I've seen videos, it looks great fun, but is low level and pretty dangerous...they have a lot of accidents. From what I hear - and I'm in the UK and not an expert - you work long hours, sleep where you end up, and the pay is low...but you do get in a lot of hours. And I see no reason why the CAA wouldn't count them, as it's a bona fide job out there.

BUT....I asked about this, and was told that you can't just go over there and get a mustering job. You need to know about cattle, maybe live on a ranch first, and be a cowboy/girl (sorry, jackaroo/jillaroo) first, and a helicopter pilot second. And from what I hear, it's pretty competitive anyway, with far too many pilots out there looking for that elusive first job.

Now, I may be wrong. You may get an answer from an ozzie helo pilot saying go for it, and telling you where to go to get a job. If so, go for it and good luck. Things change, and I may be out of date; who knows. But if you only need 50 hours, Id' say stop messing around, get another parttime job and save the dosh, and then go to the USA or South Africa and fly your little socks off for a few weeks at a half to two-thirds of the cost of flying here. Take the girlfriend and she can have a holiday while you do it. I did 52 hours in three weeks in Southern California back in 2002, and I wasn't even putting in that many hours...I got to go to the beach now and then too.

Good luck whatever you do. :ok:

[wineboy]

If your all like me you can tell yourself... and for that matter Jeeves! Don't bother!

You sound like a condesending little Sh!t.

I have never been cattle mustering as a professsional pilot however, I have a lot of mate's who have. Your attitude toward the game is very off-putting. Don't bother with coming out here to get your 50 hours.

[Capt Hollywood]

Rotorvation,

Chances are if you need to ask the sorts of questions that you are asking then mustering is not the game for you. It is a specialised role that requires flying skill and knowledge of cattle behaviour etc. I'm not sure it's a job for a new pilot! I have heard of new pilots getting a job mustering but most of these pilots already have some form of background in the cattle or farming industry. You could easily do 50hrs in a little over a week but you'd hardly be considered a 'mustering pilot' by then!

You would obviously spend a lot of time in the bush, though tents aren't used a lot out here unless it's raining. Swags on the ground are the standard and whilst there are no iguanas out here there are plenty of other friendly critters to keep you company!

Good luck in whatever you end up doing but I'd suggest you follow Whirlybirds advice.

Cheers,

Hollywood :cool:

[mustering guru]

It bugs me that some people think mustering is a hours building steeping stone!

I woked my whole life on cattle properties in outback Australia before i went and got a chopper license and then I flew for about 6 years and 8000hrs of mustering with no accents.

The money is very good if you have the talent, the guys who say its not just didnt have the abilty!

All i can say is if you have no cattle experiance dont even bother.Mustering has become specialized and it's getting harder and harder to get a start even with extensive cattle knowledge.

[Granny]

Dear- oh Dear
Where do these idiots pop up from ?

[Recuperator]

Same place you and the wine(ing)boy come from, "All over the place" and the "Middle East", starting out new in the industry as we all have, but somehow forgotten about the fact that we weren't born with helicopter controls in hand.

Being a qualified helicopter doesn't automatically give you the right to become an ass:mad:ole or rude.

Cattle mustering however, like game catching in Africa, is a highly specialised field and definitely not for the faint hearted and definitely not for hour building. Those guys are experts in their respective fields of helicopter operations!

Listen to Whirlybirds advice, there are plenty of great flying schools in South Africa, and your lady can have a great holiday at the same time.

Later on in your career you will find the better paying jobs in the helicopter industry will eventually separate you from her for extended periods, unless you are very lucky, due to the nature of our operations and the abilities of these fabulous and versatile machines we fly. Enjoy the chance to spend the time together while you still can.

Good luck;)

[Heliport]

ROTORVATION
"If your all like me you'll be asking - "What the hell is cattle mustering"? I've certainly never heared of it."

You could learn about it here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=156768) while thinking of a better idea.

Cattle mustering is highly skilled work.

[ConwayB]

Mate,

Don't take the negative attitudes of some of the other people on this forum to heart. As recuperator said, we're not all born with cyclic's in our hands... or , silver spoons in our mouths for that matter. Most of us have to work hard to get the hours in our log books or spend lots of money or join the military.

I would have to second the advice of others on this thread about trying your hand at other ways of getting your hours up. South Africa or the US/Canada sounds like the way to go. The exchange rate will certainly work in your favour. Even here in Oz, you would probably do better than in the UK by paying for your hours, especially if it's only 50 you need. Besides, working on a cattle station (they're not called ranches here), you would be expected to do a lot of sh*tty jobs as well... and if the boss found out you were there just to get 50 hours, it's unlikely you'd even get a start.

Helo flying when you're struggling to start, is a thankless mistress... but after a while, she starts showing you the stuff that puts a smile on your face.

Good luck, mate.

CB

[moosp]

If you want to see if it is for you, maybe contact Kestrel Aviation in Mangalore and try to get on one of their Kulnine weeks. It's a "road trip" to a station (i.e. farm) for mustering training. A great week of interesting flying, and at the end you will know if you want to go on for a mustering endorsement.

It is highly unlikely that you will get a job even with a mustering endorsement at the end of it unless you have lots of cattle experience on the ground, as stated above by the other posters. What you will get is interesting flying and you will learn a lot.

Better than hours building in and out of your local airport.

http://www.kestrelaviation.com.au/kulnine.html

[tinpis]

Am I likely to be sharing a tent with an iguana in the outback, or was the accomodation good?

No.
Most likely a horny ringer full of Bundy.

[WLM]

Hey Tinpis
Good Oz humour from a Kiwi bloke :p

[tinpis]

WLM I'll have you know I had the other half of my brains removed and became an aussie forty years ago.
I have a piece of paper to prove it.
:}

[Whirlybird]

If you want to see if it is for you, maybe contact Kestrel Aviation in Mangalore and try to get on one of their Kulnine weeks. It's a "road trip" to a station (i.e. farm) for mustering training. A great week of interesting flying, and at the end you will know if you want to go on for a mustering endorsement.


FWIW, I've been trying to arrange all year to go to Kulnine. I'm not mad, but I've always fancied cattle mustering; I love wide open spaces, peace and quiet, sleeping out, ****ty jobs. :) I know I'd like it! I'm a little too old to think it sensible to move lock stock and barrel to the other side of the world, but I wanted to get a taster anyway. However, the scholarship I won from Whirlygirls I'm now told can't be used for this, and I can't afford to go to Oz and also pay to fly, not any more. :( And I'm having trouble pinning Kestrel down as to dates; there's supposed to be one in June and one in September, but I've still not heard definitely. So I've given up the idea, at least for this year. :{ But if you contact them they'll send you a DVD of last year's trip and some details (URL is something obvious; do a search). And if anyone wants to go next year, and my finances are in better shape, I might still be interested in keeping them company. :ok:

[w_ocker]

Conway... "work hard to get the hours OR join the military"?? I found the two to be the same, but then again I was AFS, not one of you swaners in MLH!! BTW, were AFS to be invited to the re-union or is it just for you two-rotor-bloaters? Drop us a line;)

Sorry to hijack the thread guys.

Rotorvation (it'll send you blind, you know). Ditto for all the other posts. Ignore the negative stuff, but beware of appearing condescending about operations/places you dont know or understand.
Be cool

[Chinook]

W_ocker:

Nice to see Bushrangers keeping their heads above the parapet these days ...

I was thinking of a new AFS T-shirt - picture of a Tiger with the words 'you B!@#$%Ds owe me' on the front, and 'I told you so' on the front.

Perhaps a 40 year re-union shortly ...

Free the world

[w_ocker]

... Clear in live Chinook...
:ok:

[Inverted Chopper]

What are peoples views on helicopter mustering for hour building?

I have 80ish hours mainly on the R22, and a little on B206 and Gazelle. I'm trying to build hours towards a CPL(H) or ATPL(H) (I haven't decided which because the 'powers that be' keep moving the goal posts.

Any thoughts? (ie safety v benefit)

[MightyGem]

You might like to look here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=173713) and here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=156768).

Basically you've got to have worked on a cattle ranch for a few years first.

[John Abersynth]

For mustering training contact Mike at Becker Helicopters on the Sunshine Coast of Australia. He'll look after you.

[Ewe Turn]

Avoid Mike Becker Helicopters. At any and all costs. Do a search on pprune and see why. If you are planning on flying in Oz then consider a decent operator like Blue Tongue, Chopperline or HTT. (You need 100 hours PIC and low level training before you can do your 10 hours mustering endorsement)

That aside with no cattle experience your chances of getting a mustering job are somewhere between slim and non existant. And it is most definately NOT an hour building option.

Save up 6k and go to the US. And take your girlfriend to Disneyland.

Ewe Turn

[EMS R22]

Well said Ewe Turn.If you want to go mustering just to build hours, dont even bother.You need some stock experience on the ground before you even get in a machine.Have fun at Disneyland Rotervation!

[John Abersynth]

:ok: Becker Helicopters is the way to go for fair dinkum mustering training. "Beware of imitations."

[moosp]

Ummm, John A, haven't we done the Becker thing to death a year or so ago? Two postings in three days is a bit pushy, and has all the authority of a Jack Russell on a phone book.

No prizes for where I stole that metaphor...

[EMS R22]

Well said Moosp!

Give the Becker thing a break mate.

[Heliport]

The person who posts as John Abersynth has always tried to promote the Becker school - I've deleted loads of his posts over the past couple of years.

I don't know why he bothers. Someone always helpfully suggests potential students should search for other comments posted in this forum about that particular school and, as the posts above show, his 'recommendations' have no credibility.

Heliport

[Lowlevldevl]

Large Northern WA cattle station with new 300cbi is looking for a mustering pilot. Preferably a single bloke with 500 hours plus to come onboard full time. Although, if you have been a 'Bovine Displacement Technician' in a previous life and would like to come up and fly this little honey for a month or two as a contractor, give us a call. The right person will be well remunerated and the hours are good. If this position would suit you or someone you know, PM me and I'll let you have the contact numbers.

If you are not entitled to work in Australia or you don't have the 500 hrs there's probably no point PM'ing me............but good luck with your career anyhow.

[Bullitt73]

I'm a 700+ hours pilot back home in Europe wondering if anyone know how difficult it is to get a mustering job in Australia. Do they only take on people who has worked as ground crew, who know the ropes? Maybe getting a work permit is the biggest problem? I already have an australian CPL-H and I miss the low-flying :)

[Freewheel]

If you've heard it all before and are still prepared to do it, good luck, you'll need it.

Before you fly it, have a good look at it's records and see if you think they match the reality.

Consider what you're doing, where you're doing it and your liability should anything go wrong - and I don't mean your health after a bad accident, you'll be stuffed out there anyway, but how about about damaging the machine or moderately injuring yourself? How soon will the board & lodgings disappear?

Sounds like a great deal - so long as everything goes smoothly. Have you wondered why this might be offered to somebody who's not even in country when a quick look at these forums will see dozens of people around the traps who would jump at it if it was any good.


Try Canada, you'll get paid, the boarding's better and you'll be able to afford the bus fare outta there if it doesn't work out.

[Heliringer]

Winged hunter, when you've got about 1500 hours give me a call and I will give you a job with no pay. You can do all my flying and I will take the pay.
Good on ya

:ugh:

[540DEGREE TorqueTurn]

funny ,mike becker has never mustered a cow in his life .he worked for john armstrong as a pilot out at the katherine gorge, HE HAS NEVER worked for heli muster either , he may have flown in to get johns armstrong Kh4 serviced there , so forget about that john abersynth

[Duck Dodger]

Maybe, if you hear it one more time, it might sink in...

I was in exactly the same position as you, a few years ago.

If you go over to Oz, behave like a Commercial Pilot. That means don't offer to work for free, as all you are doing is undermining all the other Pilots around the country that are trying to get that all-important first job.

It's hard enough, as a Kiwi, trying to build up contacts in Oz.
There have been some guys go over with the attitude that their sh_t doesn't stink and Oz owes them a living. (They just make it even harder for the guys like yourself, that follow later.)

This might sound corny, but try to be the best "Ambassador" for N.Z. that you can... (Keep your nose clean, have a good work ethic, etc.)

The helicopter industry in Oz is so small, word will soon get around if you are a tosser! Your whole career will depend on your reputation.

The best thing you can do is knock on doors, which means buy yourself a cheap stationwagon, and then drive around the country. Don't waste your time posting resumes'.

Good Luck...

D.D.

[airmuster]

Winged Hunters

Cattle mustering season is nearly upon us in WA in Murchison/Gascoyne/Pilbara then Kimberleys. Do a ring around, but no harm in starting with Fitzroy Helicopters.

Hope you have done some cattle work on the ground first.... always handy.

[topendtorque]

If ever I saw a quality post then this is it.


This might sound corny, but try to be the best "Ambassador" for N.Z. that you can... (Keep your nose clean, have a good work ethic, etc.)

The helicopter industry in Oz is so small, word will soon get around if you are a tosser! Your whole career will depend on your reputation.

The best thing you can do is knock on doors, which means buy yourself a cheap stationwagon, and then drive around the country. Don't waste your time posting resumes'.

Good Luck...



Especially the last bit, a real confidence builder. you could always pick up a job at pretty much ANY of the major centres that you will drive through. Most helicopter companies will help in that regard esp if you follow DD's advice. Networking is the key.
Working odd jobs for enough to get a bit of petrol money etc. a few months or a couple of years is nothing in the big scene.

[down3gr33ns]

Probably been asked before, but who does mustering ratings in Australia that anyone can recommend?

[heliduck]

Mark Reid, Reid Heliwork in Emerald, QLD. I don't think he has an R22 anymore so you might need to find a machine.

[Ned-Air2Air]

Also check out Graeme Gillies at Blue Tounge Helicopters as think he does a lot of mustering ratings as well, and a great guy as well.

[Cirrusly]

Can anyone recommend a good school in Australia to do a mustering endorsement?

[imabell]

normal practice is to get a job with a mustering company and they will do the training and the endorsement.

your chances of employment because you have an endorsement will not be any greater and you will be out of pocket by $4000 to $5000 dollars.

any one who would do your training away from a cattle station only wants your money.

i can do the endorsement but would only do it on the job. call me if you need any information on what to do. 0754488166.

[mustering guru]

Do you have any cattle experience?

[chopperpug]

If you don't have any livestock experience, the only places you will get work are the few dodgy private operators thats still remain and will send you out on your own with no training.
Its not an easy job to start with, and its not something you can just go and do a few hundred hours of to get a bit of time up if you are going to work with a good operator.
However, if you are willing to go up and have a crack, by all means, just drive up, knock on doors, and like Imabell said, if they will give you a start, it won't matter whether you have an endorsement or not. The ten hours that thay have to do will just be done on the actual job with an approved trainer for the company. I myself have flown with Imabell when he was coming up to the company I used to fly for to do the annual Checkrides.
After your intial endorsement with someone, you will still be doing up to 200 hours ICUS or with another machine on dual musters, so they can keep an eye on your, at most places. This may sound like a lot, but thats only a month or so. And its the best flying you will do for a long time, and to have learnt the right way will save you a lot of time with the cattle, which means happy station managers, and possibly your life.
If you are looking at just trying to get your endorsement and go straight out on your own, don't rush things, and don't be a Troy f*&#ing Dan look alike. You will get bushed. As I don't know your actual situation, good luck with it, and if you do get in to it, you will enjoy every minute. Well.. . most of every minute. :ok:
And perhaps go for one of the bigger operators if you are looking at working for someone else, and not on your own place. Safety in numbers (Of machines), and they have some good gear and engineers. And at the end of the day, more people to drink a few sly ones with. :E

[rotor01]

Are there many jobs for this type of work currently? How about the helicopter industry in general for Australia/New Zealand? I'm curious as to the demand for pilots right now compared to the rest of the world. Thanks for any help.....and sorry...didn't mean to hijack the thread.:)

[Cirrusly]

Thanks everyone for your input.

I don't have any cattle mustering experience, but I was going to head out to try and get some, on the ground at the very least. Imabell, I might be in touch to ask a few more questions. I don't mind staying out west or up north or wherever. I think it would be a great skill to learn and perfect and in a great environment! :)

[Ag-Rotor]

CRG try Rodney Mengal at Alice Springs, he does mustering endorsements and has a fair insight into the mustering industry. After flying with him for while he would let you know if he thought you had a future in the mustering industry.

Troy Dan, there is a name you don't hear much any more, obviously not the gift to the helicopter industry he was portayed to be.

[Flying Lawyer]

CharlieRomeoGolf

Graeme Gillies of Blue Tongue Helicopter Services made a superb DVD about heli-mustering called Empires of Dust.

I don't know if it's still available but, if so, I'd highly recommend it to anyone interested in heli-mustering. :ok:

[mustering guru]

CRG without at least a min of 2 years ground experience don't count on getting a job as a mustering pilot, maybe a tourist pilot up north but that is about it. There is way too many new pilots around now with many years of working on the ground trying to get a start as a mustering pilot.

So mate just some good advice don't pay for your mustering endorsement as you will be wasting your money with out the ground cattle time to back it up.

Head north NAH in Katherine are always on the lookout for tourist pilots and you never know you might be able to go and get some ground experience with Milton Jones ;-)

[RVDT]

Milton Jones? Make sure you are wearing a "Black Hat".

[topendtorque]

Milton Jones? Make sure you are wearing a "Black Hat".


Excellent, absolutely f'n excellent, I know a bit about the bloke who invented the saying, well done rivet.

I could say more about him from his juvenile days around the Alice, but at this point I'll refrain.

cheers tet

speaking of black hats and things east of the bitumen and to snap myself quickly to a highly deferential tone, I must report to you and other expat Territorians, that Peg, previously from Moroak was reported in the NT news as of yesterday as having passed on.

A splendid lady, and one you would have known of I am sure. Her late husband Les, had the brand for his cattle, "FAT". He was a revered member of the NT legislative assembly for many years. Four sons remaining, the fifth speared in, in SW Queensland quite some years ago whilst mustering in a C182.

[Ag-Rotor]

Everone seems to yap on about Milton Jones, but you have to give him credit where credit is due. His helicopter mustering business is quite substantial, correct me if I am wrong probably the largest in this country at the moment, would be one of the largest employer of mustering pilots as well.If your looking for that type of employment it would be a smart move to target the operation with the most helicopters and the most work, thats where your likly to get a start. Personality's shouldn't come into it, your there to do a job, ( which is probably your dream ) pick up a pay check at the end of the month and after a few years have a look in your log book and I'm sure it would look a whole lot better than it does now.

[rjtjrt]

When does the northern Aust mustering season start and end?
John

[topendtorque]

When does the northern Aust mustering season start and end?

That's easy.

The first two weeks in april will usually be at 30 to 40 % throttle, while people muster their horse plants or the odd small stud paddock, then from between the 10 to 14 april it will be at full throttle.

Depending of course as to when Easter falls, as many people seem to be imbued with good times of holidays rather than getting stuck into it nowadays, or maybe it's an aversion to overtime payment which has only happened for ground troops in recent years during the pubic holidays.
(public holiday = australia's greatest social disease)

Busiest months in order of; will be May, August, September, June, October.

If the camel / feral animal shooting cranks up then you would look forward to Novemeber, January and December as the next busiest period, and being totally r**ted after it. only experienced drivers in that racket.

Make sure that you are well positioned in the operators hanger well before Easter, and have demonstrated a willingness to work / grovel / sweep / polish / etc, oh and don't forget knowledge of A/C flight manuals / backwards, whilst the full time staff have some time off with their families or whatever.

February, March is always full time in the hanger trying to get all the fleet tip top.
all the best tet

[rjtjrt]

Thanks TET.
John

[onetrack]

Six helicopter-related deaths over the past four years... in a fleet of 42 machines... would be enough to set alarm bells ringing in any other industry... and a massive intervention by safety organisations, to determine exactly why this horrendous death rate percentage, can't be reduced to virtually nil.
Oh wait... this is the aircraft mustering industry... and they all died, doing what they loved. :ugh:

[Widewoodenwingswork]

Of those six deaths, IIRC, only one was mustering related, and that was put down to a new set of drive belts failing (among other things). Four were the result of a R44 crash at Gunpowder. Check your facts onetrack and don't believe everything you read. As for the $300/hr, if you owned 30 of the little buggers, employed 10 people to maintain them, spread the costs out and flew it yourself in the private category, I think that would be pretty close to the money.

[topendtorque]

i had an idea the fact sheet of six fatals related to the industry generally not that company. 42 helicopters might relate to the spread of three companies under the one roof. i doubt there'd be many more than half that fleet working full time.

there are plenty of other operators and privateers running around north oz, i'd hate to take a guess, all up say 60 to 70 at any one time doing mustering? someone else like to take a punt?

a quick look around as far as fatals in the past 30 months or so might read like this. continued flying with sus drive belts, one; continued flying past midnight having started at daylight en route to a mustering job, one;
collision between fixed wing and R44 whilst feral animal shootiong, two; collision between two helicopters just after sunrise en route to a mustering job, two; t/R strike whilst mustering, one; that's WA,

then probable fatigue, one; two up collision with ground, joy flight newbie and grandmother, grandmother deceased; recently a light plane mustering horses two up, two; that's qld,

then in the NT, wire strike showing off at a rodeo, one; just the other day collision with ground mustering bulls, one:

add to that about five others wrecked in the last week, one of which was chasing a dingo, and another five in the few months before that which I can think of, one chasing a dingo, one with lunch wrap around the air intake, another up north, didn't pick up the reason, another in WA T/r strike in water , whilst trying to shoot a barra with a .357 one up; another collision with mud involving a crocodile, no statements from the croc yet but two up, one hurst fairly bad:

The list goes on, a R44 with 4up in the NT overpitched on take off, four got out ok;
the one at gundpowder already mentioned; another in the bungle bungles four up all fatal;
another in the NT unexplained collision with ground two up during mustering, one para; the list goes on.

i give up.

[Ag-Rotor]

Quite disturbing when you see listed like that.

[topendtorque]

another few I just remembered, in the last two years,

one in Qld, T/r strike chasing a calf one up but he stepped out all ok, but unexplained how come a fire engine with foam was close enough to foam it very quickly? (recently seen on pprune)

another took off solo, collective not tied down;

another doing a test flight after service, with a young maverick who thought he would do a mad low level engine off quick stop or something? got stuffed up and hit the ground at about ninety, one up, he got out but the crash was most spectacular they say;

then another recently, a H269 caught fire in flight, very quick pilot put it down ok but unable to save the machine.

I know of another four fatal going back a few years more, but heh i've got to call it a day.

also quite a few T/R strikes that didn't result in write-offs. one bloke did kill himself on the fourth success at this venture. No, don't ask why he wasn't strangled on the way past as I don't know;

another pilot an instructor has had three in the last three or so years and also destroyed a skid by deliberate collision with a bull.

i've got a bit of light reading by my bedside lamp all about Oz's first WWI VC Albert Jacka, right now we're in the 14th battalion being massacred at Bullecourt by idiot British generalship. looks like a walk in the park compared to the above
good night.

[SuperF]

They are doing quite well in the mustering game then. We had an operator in NZ wipe out 4 pilots in 5 years out of a "huge" claimed fleet of about 9 but had at least 5 more crashes in the same time, and we only ever knew of 6 helicopters in the air at once. Can't blame the operator for everything, but they were all relatively low time pilots, or new to the aircraft type...

Some people just don't learn, and it doesn't matter what you tell a fresh cpl About staying away from certain operators, they will do anything to fly...

[Ag-Rotor]

Just to add to the previous list, a mustering pilot from Rolleston in QLD was killed two days ago when his R22 crashed whilst mustering.



http://media.apnonline.com.au/img/media/images/2010/11/09/chopper_t325.jpg

THE small town of Rolleston has been rocked by the death of grazier Russell Parker in a helicopter crash on a private property near Mt Ogg yesterday.

Members of the close-knit community have confirmed their shock at the tragedy.

The 39-year-old father of four young daughters, whose family has a long association with the area, was mustering cattle about 32 km west of Rolleston.

His family lost contact with him about 10am yesterday.

They began a search on horse back.

Matthew Brandon from the RACQ Rescue Helicopter yesterday said they and another aircraft carrying a police officer found the wreckage about 65km west of Rolleston.

An intensive care paramedic was winched down to a nearby creek bed and the pilot was declared dead at the scene.

A police media spokeswoman said the pilot was the sole occupant of the helicopter.

Police returned to the scene at first light this morning.

A worker at the Rolleston Hotel said the pilot was a “very well-respected” community member, who had been involved in almost 8anything to help the small town.

“He was very community-minded. Everyone knew him, he grew up in the area and was very well-respected,” she said.

“It’s shocked the whole community.”Gladstone Observer (http://www.gladstoneobserver.com.au/story/2010/11/10/copter-crash-claims-pilot/)

[Ag-Rotor]

Is it only a rumour or did the mustering pilot who was killed at Roleston last week " not have a licence" ???

[huey]

I heard the same thing, pilot not licensed.:=

[Ag-Rotor]

Quiet a smart bloke!"NOT" left behind a wife & kids

[topendtorque]

Yes the “locally respected father and husband” bit came up on the headlines bit of the ABC news webpage when it was first reported.
The bit about the no license I wonder as I heard that he had a brand new PHL, like three weeks old. I don’t know about a Low Level or Mustering bit or indeed how many hours PIC to achieve same.
From the rescue pilots comments on ABC one can read that it was not the easiest of terrain for any pilot to be working in, let alone one who is utterly in-experienced.
Lots of questions could be asked. Starting from the training schools ability, the ATO’s judgement, the authorising person on the day, the, ----= and the list goes on. I also got to hear that there may have been a major demonstration of manipulative skill shortcoming during this person's training. I.E. major over speed. Thereby rest two more training school questions, one-recognition of Gov switch ON-OFF and two but more importantly -how to handle what should be regarded as a fallible system before solo.
I mean how many times we read in these columns of Bell 206 governors and others, going AWOL, the light could be on or off, but someone must be at home.
But more importantly a question if that is true, what standard does a student sink to before it is recommended to him (nicely) that he is out of his depth? Possibly that depends upon how deep the poor unfortunate students pockets are. If that was the case how swiftly should the regulatory body become involved?
I heard also a rumour that he may have been working for his brother, who owns helicopter?/s? .. Working?? Commercial?? As a Private licensee.
But then that may be confused with another helicopter operator in roughly the same area or a bit north of there who had also a brother, but this one who was fixed wing rated only and reckoned that flying these R44 things was p**s easy. Which he took license, [sic] to do for about twenty yards to a spectacular conclusion. That outfit may also be under a cloud of investigation re AOC or not and illegal airwork/charter, so the whole unlicensed bit may be confused between the two, I don’t know.
The rest of the world must really be wondering about just how this industry regulates itself or indeed if we have any regulations. I know we do as I not long ago amended many book full’s of them. I don't know how many others have those books. ??
Perhaps Gordy’s illuminating and helpful discussion regarding “human factors” is set at another level well above the bar of sections of the oz mustering and training–human- factor.
Yes - perhaps the luckless individual did not in his lack of experience see what could be later viewed as good/bad judgement, but remember this; he has a family who will need to maintain their mantle of their father figure and it would be wise to consider many other factors prior to any direct criticism. The prevailing conditions at the site would be high on the list.
The main thing now is to protect others who may be so easily similarly affected. Very disappointing I must say the whole damn deal.
tet

[topendtorque]

Mr bellfest has identified himself as a critic of the above posts. so i say to you Mr Bellfest, I am waiting to see whether you will come over here and identify yourself as way too close to the action of this unfortunate accident or that you know nothing about any of the suggestions or mustering and therefore should retract and shut up.

or you may have some very constructive ideas as to how things could be improved to stamp out and avoid identified suggestions as above.

he says we make him ill, well green horn, nowhere near as ill as some affected innocents I'll bet.

all the best to you bellfest,
now, walk the talk.
tet.

[bellfest]

I'm not getting into something ugly here. I'm going to say my piece and leave it at that......

Firstly yes, as you have stated I am definitely a critic of the above posts. I don't think this is the place to jump on and make 'guesses' about what has happened in accidents well out of our reach. That includes airing rumours about the individuals involved and effected, the cause of the accident and many different factors that have led to it. There is no way anyone can know and I don't think it's fair or appropriate to theorise on a public forum... Talk about it with your mates as you will but leave it off here. There are projects and people in place to investigate these things and though we could all have our say about how that could be done better at the end of the day they generally do a pretty good job... Not ideal and even possibly not always correct but it is what it is....

Secondly, suggesting my comment on the other thread was indicating my 'laughter' had anything to do with the subject matter and not at the behaviour the poster's doesn't really even warrant a reply.... But I guess I just did!

Thirdly, I have no connection with this accident at all. I do however have vast experience with R22's, mustering and the cattle industry as I was born into it and spent a large part of my life involved in every aspect of all of it. And I do to this day in many shapes and forms. I think 20+ years in the helicopter industry graduates me out of green horn status...

I also know a lot about many other aspects of the helicopter industry having done a vast amount of flying and other things helicopter related in a vast amount of places in a vast amount of machinery.... I don't claim to be an authority on it but I am far less one dimensional than someone who has spent their entire career in one field of the industry.....

I acknowledge that you have an active brain and therefore an active interest in events within this industry. That is not something that I would have a go at you about as every mind has something to contribute... Your choice of medium and your lack of data is what I was having a go at.....

Finally, I am annoyed with myself for becoming involved in what I normally turn my nose up by even replying to this post. I do however think I did have to walk the talk as you said and that is about as much walk as I have... I am very fond of the mustering industry as it gave me my foundation and to this day I believe that some of the best hands on pilots have started in that game.... It is a completely different industry to what I knew it as and the obvious aspects of accessibility to aircraft, poor training born of no company foundation and experience and the all too important aspect of aviating that has been so sorely abandoned in so many areas amongst that industry is rendering it a very poor example of aviation.

Someone could do quite well by educating those that place the R22 in the same category as the HSZ75 Toyota Land Cruiser and offering their services to get these people up to speed and back into more of an aviation mindset. Bring a portion of the Ray Bands back into it if you will.... That would be quite a task but it is up to the industry to repair the industry.

CASA and the ATSB have a lot to answer for in their blatant disregard for private operators. They should be more accountable for their actions. They should be required to aviate as proficiently as anyone else who takes to the skies as truth be known, if a lot of them could fly an auto or a jammed pedal half as well as they can fly through a loop hole in the system the industry would be a much safer place. Farming AOC's, hanging off the annex of a contracting arrangements and negating accountability for ignoring everything that is in place to make aviating safe should be stamped.... That would be a great start!

[Earl of Rochester]

A little bit of horse play for the muster pilots:

http://motherjones.com/files/images/horses-helicopters-300-inline.jpg




http://wildhorsepreservation.com/images/archive/sheldon1.jpg

http://thecloudfoundation.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/helicopter_behind_bos_band4-ae-9-5-09.jpg



EoR :ok:

[Ag-Rotor]

Nothing like some good o'l 47 pic's, Brings back memories.

After reading the last two posts by tet and bellfest I am compelled to appologise for placing the post about this accident in the first instance. Reports of the pilot being unlicenced made my blood boil and I threw it out there in the hope that it couldn't be true. I am not directly involved in the mustering industry any more, but I spent a good decade and a half as a mustering pilot, even considered myself as a profesional in my field and it makes me sick to see something like this happen.. Mud sticks and it will be lumped into the mustering ( accident basket ) no matter how far removed from the norm it may have been.

You only have to see how these cowboy's treat their landcruisers in the stock camps to know that a lot of them should be kept as far away from a helicopter as you can. Mustering used to be conducted profesionaly by large company's who had good check and training, and mentoring programes, which enabled pilots to be trained in a profeesional manner not only to be competent musterers but good aviators as well.

[waragee]

Very nice piccy's Earl. I daresay I wouldn't like to be paying for the damage that was being thrown up. Here is a pretty ordinary photo of 2 other pilots doing much the same thing.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs635.snc4/59504_436471557866_736382866_4988348_3832522_n.jpg

[Earl of Rochester]

.. I wouldn't like to be paying for the damage that was being thrown up ..


For the un-mustered among us could you kindly explain to what you are referring?

And btw, did you know that there is an alcoholic beverage produced in Uganda, Africa which bears a similar name to your username! It is reputedly lethal!

http://foolocracy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Waragi-225x300.jpg

Earl

[waragee]

I hope that stuff tastes good,

being very close up to fast moving animals like that, particularly horses can result in blade and bubble damage from the lumps of dirt and stones and debris thrown up from the hooves.

next time you see the horse races on tv take notice of how much is thrown up, its astounding.

[Earl of Rochester]

Understood. :ok:

[waragee]

As this is a rumour network its probably the place to ask.
Considering the current thread regarding a potentialy unlicenced pilot I recall hearing a rumour about a pilot flying for one of the Television stations in Sydney. The story goes that this chap had been taught to fly by his mates in NZ as they worked on deer recovery. He became very good and worked commercially in NZ and eventually moved to Australia and progressed along nicely until coming unstuck after a few years of flying for a Sydney television station when someone decided they needed to sight licences. I heard this about 1980 I think.

It wil be very disappointing if the same sort of thing is true of the poor guy discussed here, I would guess its probably a simpler explanation such as no Low Level endorsement or Mustering endorsement.

[topendtorque]

thanks earl, where do your snaps come from? looks like a 3B1, tried to blow the first photo a bit closer and it does appear to be an oil tank on the near side with no exhaust that side and high console. also interesting to note the texas no-bar kit. not smart to have two up when mustering horses IMHO even with 285hp.

warrageee where was your photo taken and what are you chasing, and what is that shape between / behind the two machines but near or on ground level. Looks like the front half of the last wreck??:)

thanks ag R and Bellfest, all noted, sometimes one needs to be "one dimensional" to be "master of a trade", rather "jack of none," or put another way, dabbling with just enough knowledge in each field to be dangerous, in reality.

re the farming of the AOC, I have been a receiver and a donator of the famous 'use of' such instrument in the past.

Knowing what I know now about the correct way to legalise a multi user AOC i shudder and am thankful that nothing went wrong way back when.

There are actually people who want to "do the right thing' and insure themselves by working under someone else's AOC when they don't have the time or knowledge to construct one for themselves, nothing wrong with that, better than them saying, 'Oh, I am just a contractor mustering cattle with my own machine'.

Heaps do it illegaly without the tie-up documents and continuous paper trail, i know, but wait until things go pear shaped. A multi user AOC is a better system than the big company where machines are all owned by the one entity, where you have pilots who don't have anywhere near the same responsibility level when they are on wages than when they are flying their own machine.
There's another side to that as well and it's the peer pressure fact that if one stuffs up then they stuff it for everyone, not like wage earners who can simply gravitate to another company when one company has a problem and leave the investment and the mess with the poor bloody owner. Think about it.

cheers tet.

[Earl of Rochester]

~ TopEnd!

The first photo is of a 47 herding Mustangs in the US. The helicopter (still flown as I understand) is owned and operated by the US Bureau of Land Management. I don't know the model will try and find out.

But .. you are going to get me into trouble if you keep complimenting the photos I post as I'm already in trouble with PPRuNe Towers for my overzealous use of images. :{

http://media.washtimes.com/media/image/2009/12/29/20091228-211513-pic-485212659_s640x407.jpg?e712abc55b0acf214be6de55fe2279c1a56d6 379

http://tuesdayshorse.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/whheligather-jackgruber.jpg

Here you go TopEnd, no pax this time but .. can you blame someone for begging the driver to take them along!

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2010/07/18/alg_wild_horses.jpg

http://horsesinthesouth.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/NV_Dec_2007_helicopter_sorrel_TCF.jpg

[Ag-Rotor]

Earl ... I thought those brumby's would have out-run that Hiller !!

[Flying Binghi]

The 'brumby's in Aus must surely wonder 'what the heck' when they see...

They dont think for long.... in Oz, a combination of brumbys and helicopter usualy have a rifle in the mix..:E




.

[Earl of Rochester]

And there I was believing it was only the French who ate horse steak!

[waragee]

Earl,
You certainly have a gift at using/scourcing photos. Great stuff.

TET,
The thing on the ground is just a turkey bush looking a bit stressed.
The brumbys are in the yard, this was in the western gulf without being too specific. I think about 400 were yarded at this yard and over 2 years around 3000 altogether into permanent and portable yards. All brumbys.
You would have chased a few yourself no doubt and would understand how difficult they can be.

[topendtorque]

would understand how difficult they can be

oh yes, one up and half fuel only and never does the collective work harder than when chasing those things, a task eclipsed only by chasing the money for the event later.
what is it about the people that hire you for brumby running? almost in every instance, a bastard of a job all round, but exciting yeah.

the '47's with the no bar gave us an edge on the four legged critters at least.
western gulf? always just smart enough to send someone else into that area, especially the place on the border that had the time expired tinned tucker, pilots really got the sh**s there.

[waragee]

I had a jammed collective once whilst in pursuit of brumbies, dropped in an opening into position and discovered the bad news when time came to lift out, fortunately recovered ok but by crikey exciting yes. Still the poor old brums are pretty well gone now mostly by virtue of captain winchester whose success rate was way better than mine.

Luckily we had a good client were the photo was taken so funds were secure, I had some good years on the border place too with food and funds all ok, but never ran brumbies there. I am aware of the tinned tucker episode.

Never worked a no bar just the stab bar but I did discover that a Robbie could get about well enough when called upon.

[540DEGREE TorqueTurn]

not like wage earners who can simply gravitate to another company when one company has a problem and leave the investment and the mess with the poor bloody owner. Think about it.

cheers tet.


WHAT LIKE THE SUPPLEJACK STORY , do you know a little bit about this one tet

[topendtorque]

WHAT LIKE THE SUPPLEJACK STORY


no,
and rather than raise innuendo you might be well advised to find your answer from the pilot concerned and the owner of the aircraft.

i'd have thought that there is enough heartache in that turnout without you interfering in something that is none of your business and showing yourself off to the world by blustering around with your big feet.
tet

[Ag-Rotor]

Hey Earl .... "Mustangs" are from the land of Broke-back Cowboys, Here in Aust they are "Brumbys" the land of Ringers.

You know the last time I saw a Hiller mustering Brumbies, it was jammed in the air filter of my 3B-1. ;)

[bellfest]

thanks ag R and Bellfest, all noted, sometimes one needs to be "one dimensional" to be "master of a trade", rather "jack of none," or put another way, dabbling with just enough knowledge in each field to be dangerous, in reality.

It is totally acceptable that people in our field can engage in various types of operations and become highly proficient at each of them. Suggesting that any one who has done so is a "jack of no trade" is an insult quite possibly only a suggestion that someone with little exposure would make...

On that note, a self proclamation of being " a master of a trade" carries little weight! I thought that about my shagging ability when I was in my early twenties but strangely enough I had no back up from the ladies! Kind of took the back bone out of my reasoning...

Personally, I think the multi user AOC is a complete load of **** and should not be allowed no matter what spin is put on it. Each of these operators should not be allowed to jump through any loop holes as contractors and private operators full stop. They should either have the knowledge, ability and means to have a complete and proper operational system including an AOC and all other forms of administrative documents and procedural accountabilities that are required to go with that or, they should restrict their operations to terra firma where they belong....

I don't think anyone has crashed a helicopter through a lack of accountability to their employer.... It don't matter who owns the helicopter, no one wants to crash it! It is after all, primarily self preservation that keeps us in one piece...

[topendtorque]

sorry there bellfest ol' son, i didn't mean to start WWIII. just a quick jab back at what looked like a bit of a put down.

i think you will find that a correctly set up multi user AOC does have all the correct paperwork and more than is usually the case in a single entity company. I would suggest that in the corporate and small to medium RPT world that it might commonly be used.
such procedures should be in place for every crosshired aircraft and be able to be demonstrated by your HAAMC the aircraft servicing requirements in an audit. It may be serviced by another workshop, bringing into place another agreement which must be on file.
if the AC came with a pilot the Chief pilot must record those pilots' hours for the last twelve months and his currencies as per usual. The AOC therefore is a multi user AOC. As I say i think you will find the practice very common and blustering about it's use, is utter nonsense.

CASA is too short staffed to check every small operator, you would know that some of them draw criticism by going only to those operators parked on an airfield beside a RPT service rather than out bush. It makes sense to have at least the representation that one chief pilot can give to many others to make CASA's work a lot easier. it makes good safety sense to provide a mentoring service to those remote operators rather than have them operate in isolation and become seriously cloistered in their thinking.

I expect to be rung and have been a few times by CASA, with, "is so and so working under your AOC?" i can easily email immediatly the correct forms of agreement, F/D time and pilot currency details as required. in fact I have said to the CASA dude who rings that I would like to hear those enquiries more often re the outlaws.

No big company with any brains would provide the service for operators who may become their opposition for sure.
apart from that if you have ever tried to start up an AOC and watch your business vaporise while you wait for documentation you would know that something legal is needed to fill that gap.

I've been around long enough to know the old adage about self praise being no recommendation, spare me, I didn't / wouldn't push that far. but it is a fact that many specialist are simply that in one field.
not every one is a specialist, less often in the mustering game than other fields say, do you get those who sail off into an impeccable reputation sunset with never having to pull that special something out of their backside when it is put upon them, but there are passengers here as anywhere.
In fact with a quick and crude edit, i could say the country side is becoming rather littered with them and their wreckages.

re the private ownership verse the company owned aircraft, of course 99% of pilots are fastidious and careful regardless. but the difference of private ownership is something that I have often seen, and the peer pressure that goes with not letting your mates down, because they know the costs and the risks much more than an ordinary employee does.
Besides I can easily prove this section of the argument with something that we can all relate to, just tell me where you see a company car looked after as well as the employees own car. touche.

cheers tet.

[topendtorque]

You know the last time I saw a Hiller mustering Brumbies, it was jammed in the air filter of my 3B-1.


had exactly the same experience, having a very hard time one late afternoon right on about thirty years ago, amongst a sea of twenty foot high pea bush when it wasn't in the channels and cane grass, heard a noise, out of nowhere i spotted a cone shaped piece of corrugated iron disappearing toward my air cleaner.

probably the same little chappie that you had, running around picking up rocks he was, he must have seen the light, he is currently flying with angels I believe. more than likely he will come on here and try to give a bit of lip

[540DEGREE TorqueTurn]

good post bellfast good reading

For those that charge for the use of an A.O.C should and will be held responsible should anything go wrong . I have talked with the pilot in mention and he paints a scary picture of what was going on , DO you still want to carry on tet? . Pretty scary for you answering NO , then baiting me , and rather raise innuendo like you said , its funny how we all hide the truth , for those that know , why are our lips so tight , why do we do this? , maybe it just takes hate to say the right thing !!!

[topendtorque]

hate


mmm seems to be a fairly strong suite in your hand, perhaps you could ask some advise from Flying Lawyer, or any reputable legal eagle, as to how far it will get you in any action.

I have no idea why you have so much truck with this situation you mention, tell you what I'll send you a PM when I get around to it and try to address some of your concerns if i can.
regards tet

[Ned-Air2Air]

Few mustering pics from my collection. Some of your will recognise them :cool:

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/a2_2.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/a28.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/Civil%20Thread%20Images/146.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/Civil%20Thread%20Images/4.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/Civil%20Thread%20Images/69.jpg

[Ned-Air2Air]

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/Civil%20Thread%20Images/7.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/Civil%20Thread%20Images/8.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/Civil%20Thread%20Images/muster2.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/Civil%20Thread%20Images/alo.jpg

[Ag-Rotor]

Hey Ned.... good photo's, like the 300c mustering Giraffe's.

[waragee]

This is a pic taken by a friend of mine just as this machine is dropping out of translation, he is landing using about 15". Really nice control
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs990.snc4/76322_471793732866_736382866_5577366_5190873_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5577364&id=736382866)

[waragee]

Another shot from a friend showing a big mob going up to the yard nice and easy, good low pressure mustering.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1214.snc4/156636_471793912866_736382866_5577372_2389568_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5577364&id=736382866)

[Pandalet]

That's amazing! How do you get them to stay in such a regular shape, and not go running all over the landscape? I assume there's a fence (or similar) down the left hand edge of the herd, is there another on the right? So you just have to get them to run into a funnel?

Or are the critters just really well trained?

[waragee]

They are a herd animal and usually run together quite well, there are a few recalcritant types from time to time but treated well cattle are usually no problem.

There is a fence on the left side and out wide on the right there is another. Its a big laneway leading up to the yard but nice and wide so you can manuvere a big mob without going over the fence.
There are horsemen taking the tail along.

The secret to handling any cattle is not to let them get hot. A good stockpilot will sometimes be in the lead of cattle slowing them down so they dont get hot. One of the most effective ways to muster is to have a team of horsemen walking a small mob along with 1 or 2 machines mustering into them and steadily building the size of the mob. With large numbers of cattle it sometimes gets to the point that there are so many that it is pointless for the horsemen to try and maintain control and a simpler solution is to just let them travel themselves but amongst most good cattlemen this is not desirable. Unfortunately a lot of good stockmen are drifting away from the bush and the ground team skill levels are in rapid decline, this is the core reason that experienced stockmen are usually favoured as muster pilots.

[topendtorque]

thanks Ned, your pics are always a good tonic, I especially like the last one,
the cool breeze right on picanninay daylight, machine just lifting, past the palm tree, 5 degrees left bank settle down at heading 044 as track sits right on 028 as climb goes past 300 feet the air warms a touch, the brolgas dancing as one flies over, brumbies and cattle playing, but the old bulls as you show, barely glance sideways.

nostalgic pics of CSM i believe the last one of a stable of 23 operational '47's during it's peak, from the great NT Bell 47 temple.
these pics show it on the last day it did a commercial job before it headed south, didn't always be painted white, the personal hack of our illustrious chief pilot it used to be painted in the stars and stripes, reflecting his home state. (be great if someone could come up with a pic of it then)

be a good pic for the arifast thread, it being an ex airfast machine after the company, crowley airways??, was acquired by killen, part of a family of six or so CS's

yes Pandalet as Warragee mentions, Low Stress Stock Handling is the single greatest advance in safety, efficiency and customer satisfaction that our industry has had in the last twenty years. hard to believe that people still find reasons for ham fisted accidents. you can check out the origins of LSSH by googling for Bud Williams, with his wife Eunice a truly remarkable, nearly retired at about eighty, American couple.

it is a matter of gathering the confidence of the cattle, not blasting them, they then gather their calves and wander off in the direction away from where your gradual but regular bits of pressure are coming from, still chewing their cud if you do it right.
probably already part of an accomplished instructors repertoire i guess.;)
tet

[Ag-Rotor]

tet..... yeh all going up nice an easy... how many times has the sence of accomplishment at that point being shattered by the whole mob turning.. just a bout where the tail goes into the scrub,and your suddenly looking at their heads and a **** load of dust comming up behind them.....!!!

[Pandalet]

Thanks for the explanation, folks - always nice to watch skilled people doing what they do :ok:

[waragee]

Hey Ag-Rotor, a mate of mine used to say you haven't known pure terror till you have got 3000 weaners coming at you. lol.

No doubt about it things can get ordinary pretty quickly.

Interesting how the status of the chopper pilot has changed in the bush. When we first started using choppers when you landed at place you were a god. The manager would meet you with a six pack, the missuses would ask if you if you had any washing needed doing and the govvie would be in your room ready to get up close and personal.
Now you are dead lucky if someone gives you a hand to stand a drum.

[randyjarhead]

im from montana looking a job with low hours.at least send me in the right direction

[Ag-Rotor]

Waragee.....mate I couldn't have put it better myself. It was the best job with all the perks " re the govies"

[Ag-Rotor]

Randyjarhead...probably stay home I reckon...long way up from a low hour jock if you don't allready work in a stockcamp and have a bit of a name for yourself.

[Heliringer]

BBC News - Helicopter cowboys of Australia's Outback (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12408888)

[topendtorque]

Interesting BBC article


hmmmmmmmmmmmmm......hmmmmmmmmm......hmmmmmmmmm
might even outdo the other one.

[waragee]

You know I look at all the stuff posted on this site with interest ever vigilant for mention of the old mustering game that is pretty well my life and then I spot this stuff that looks like it is played up to the camera. I have no doubt that Ben and co. are expert musterers and can probably get the best out of a Robbie no problem. We all have to get down and dirty and mix it with them every now and then and like the saying goes 95% of the the cattle make 5% of the trouble and 5% of them cause 95% of the trouble so this full on flying shouldn't be happening anything like what we are seeing here. I guess Ben is probably just having a ball ripping about and good luck to him but boys its not all like this.

[topendtorque]

but boys its not all like this


second that,
especially in these days of Low Stress Stock Handling, not overheating cattle, providing a good look to our meat markets, all that, of which Ben is very much aware.

The industry has changed, no more, scrub bulls, brumbies, clearing the wucka tooks off of Killarney and so on.

But there you go a private operator

[Savoia]

.

BILLINGS, Mont. — A state official says livestock agents on horseback and helicopter have hazed about 350 wild bison into Yellowstone National Park as part of the annual drive to get the animals out of Montana to make way for cattle.

http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/2426/images/LF1J2578_sm.jpg

Department of Livestock spokesman Steve Merritt said Wednesday all remaining bison outside the park would be driven into Yellowstone Thursday or soon after.

Yellowstone spokesman Dan Hottle says the park will next push the animals several miles past the state line. That's so they don't return to Montana, where thousands of bison have been killed to guard against the disease brucellosis.

About 500 bison were in the West Yellowstone area earlier this week.
A pending lawsuit from environmentalists seeks to stop the use of a helicopter in the bison drive.


350 bison driven into Yellowstone from Montana to make way for grazing cattle :: The Republic (http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/34aa2feda48e4f6585c6d39e3a6dd808/MT--Yellowstone-Bison/)

[topendtorque]

A pending lawsuit from environmentalists seeks to stop the use of a helicopter in the bison drive.


They would have to complain about something wouldn't they? Not that, from a purely laymans point of view of course, can I see any one of those animals in the piccy that looks like it may be stressed out or even have moved its heart rate up from a slow idle.

There's an old dude that I used to work for once, an American who owned a couple of largish stations out here a while back, Luke Wise. He lived in Billings. Surely he would have to be still alive, he'd be too horrible to die. If someone chased him up and sooled him onto those hairy armpitted protestors they'd soon change their tune I bet. A very entertaining gentleman, he used to work with pappy's mob during WWII, it would only cost a quick flip in the 500.

Speaking of pushing them a few miles further so they won't run back is intriguing. It can be done with Low Stress techniques for sure.

However we have seen judas collared buffalo shift fifty to sixty Kilometres in a night, then return a few days later when the artillery shifted on during our TB and Brusco eradication program.

Another buffalo judas collar was sprung doing about 90 K/hr on the highway in the back of a pet meat vehicle, then two more collars were found hanging in another pet meaters boning room, amazing how they get around.

There's another recent case of a camel with a satellite collar on that has moved from a place called Andodo, (South East of the Alice) up past a station called Tobermory on the Qld border, (that's about 4 hundred K) and then right back to South West of Halls Creek in WA (another 12 hundred K from Andodo in the opposite direction) in the space of about fourteen months. So good luck with holding them if'n there aren't any electric fences to hold them in.