Ryanair Pay for New Joiners...

[scroggs]

Thought you might be interested in this post by Wonder Boy, copied from the Terms and Endearments forum:

I am a First Officer in Ryanair and here is exactly how I am being payed in the first 12 months:

Type rating (4-6 WEEKS):

No pay

You then wait 2-4 weeks for base training without pay. After base training you are on the training contract basic rate for 6 months. This is an annual rate of 8700 pounds. However, you do not start getting payed this until after line training. Line training takes 2-3 months so you are therefore only payed on this rate for 3-4 months. Sounds complicated? It is purposely so.Not only that, but the company reduces this initial rate by 1000 pounds every year or so without notice. Next year you might therefore expect the rate to be 7700 pounds.

So, from the start of type rating until conclusion of line training you will only have earned about 750 pounds (half sector pay after safety pilot release and no basic salary yet).

About 3.5 months now remain until you finish your training contract. On the annual rate of 8700 (remember this will reduce eventually) you will earn 2530 basic in this time. Also, you will earn 2800 sector pay.

To sum up so far:

Day 1 to completion of line check ( 4 months) = 750 pounds

Line check to end of training contract (3.5 months) = 5330 pounds

Total after 7.5 months with the company = 6080 pounds.

It will now have been 6 months since base check. You will now go on the basic second officer terms. This amounts to a basic annual rate of 14000 pounds and half sector pay for a further 6 months.

In these 6 months you will therefore earn 7000 pounds basic and about 4800 pounds sector pay. This basic rate is also being reduced annually without notice.

Ok, here are the final figures (before tax) for the first 12 months after the base check:

Basic pay: 9530 pounds

Sector pay: 8350 pounds

Total: 17880 Pounds.

You can expect to remain on second officer pay scale for 18 months after line check. This will probably increase to a greater time period as time goes by.

That's going to make it easy to pay back your £40,000 debt, isn't it!? I should steer clear of this company if I were you - you could earn more as a labourer at B&Q.


Scroggs

[AIRWAY]

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

This is the end surely, i mean for god sake :* :mad: how much more worse can it get :confused:

:sad:

[Fancy Navigator]

Hi,
This is a joke! Really! They totally take the p...!:mad: :} :8
Unfortunately, it will go on as more and more people are ready to put themselves through that c##p to get ahead of the game! Very sad!

FNav

[EGAC_Ramper]

It'll be 1 airline I wont be applying too after gaining the fATPL.

[Mister Geezer]

The problem that there will always be people out there with 'mug' written on their forehead who will happily join this flying circus. I would urge anyone thinking of joining Ryanair to say no and wait for a far better opportunity to come around. The job market is picking up and why should you settle for a tin pot rocket outfit when you have invested so much in your training? As a prop F/O I am horrified to see that I earn about 4 grand more then someone who sits in a 737 and has paid for their rating!

[benhurr]

Makes an FI(r) salary look attractive - cos of course to get the job you have to pay for the type rating

[Wanabee,Gunnabee,Am]

This will always happen whilst people are desperate to fly. Long term it still works out, however MOL et al know this and will continue to screw over anyone who is desperate enough to bend over and take it. I don't agree with him but it makes commercial sense. Let's hope that one day something bad doesn't happen to cause an investigation into crews. Heaven knows what it will uncover.

[Maude Charlee]

Mr G

They have to pay you all that extra to compensate for living in Humberside. ;) :}

When you back in NCL?

Merry Xmas mate.:D

[G SXTY]

Jesus Scroggs I knew it was bad, but I didn’t realise it was that bad. Hopefully it’s a bit academic for me, as I will never ever apply to an employer that charges me £50 to read my CV, but if O’Leary is setting the tone for everyone else . . .

Just a thought, but if you’re on a Ryanair training contract (i.e. starvation-wage basic pay and sector pay making up the difference) and you get a really nasty cold – you know, the sort where you’re not really fit to fly, but it’s a judgement call and you could probably get away with it – are you going to phone in sick or turn up and get paid? Answers on a postcard to the CAA.

[smith]

I wouldn't even fly Ryanair anymore. I would rather fly BA or BMI, and nine times out of ten its even cheaper to do it this way, and you don't have another hour and £20 on a bus or a train after you landed.

[michaelknight]

This is typical BS.

"I wouldn't even fly Ryanair anymore. I would rather fly BA or BMI, and nine times out of ten its even cheaper to do it this way, and you don't have another hour and £20 on a bus or a train after you landed."

And the topic is:

Ryanair Pay for New Joiners...

MK

[smith]

MK

The emphasis on my mail is the words "wouldn't even".

If I "wouldn't even" use them as a customer, I am sure as hell "wouldn't" apply for a job with them!

[OBK!]

Ok so maybe it is 'bad' in comparison, but the grass is always greener on the other side.

Why not moan about emerald's pathetic salary, or that of a flying instructor?

You have to start somewhere, and to me, it's an oppurtunity with what I'm told by friends within the company is generally well run and has a good training record. Getting paid, however much or little, to fly a jet is far far better than paying to fly a prop on a 'b&q' salary.

Maybe it's something to do with my age, but I'll be applying and i'll take every possible oppurtunity that comes along. I agree with you that it is not ideal but like I say, there's always something better, no matter where you go.

Cheers
obk

[CIPO]

You'll all still be moaning like this in a years time, when anyone who gets a job with FR will have 900 737 hours and can stay if they like it or go elsewhere.
Have any of you even got a job?, one of you hasn't even got a fATPL yet.
Don't be fussy guys, the clock waits for no-one......!

[Maxiumus]

but the grass is always greener on the other side.

It most certainly is for the low-timer, which is why they shouldn't touch ryanair with a bargepole.

Scroggs,
clearly anyone with half a brain would take your advice and steer clear. Regrettably the comments by CIPO and OBK show why this bull$hit will only continue. Time for Europe-wide union with all pilots as members. Ah if only...

[signeti]

obk , my poor boy , your friends have misinformed you ,
the company may show large profits , but this does not imply that it is well run , it isnt and at the moment it is in crisis , all the cost saving ideas are grinding this company down from the inside out , it is self destructing .
read the papers or even do a search for irish goverment debates on the state of ryanair ...its so rotten even the goverement is debating it ....
as for training there are some fantastic line training captains ,notice i said "some" but training in general is CRAP...you are thrown in at the deep end and expected not just to swim but to win the olympic gold ,
try learning to fly a 737 doing 6 sector days when some sectors can be done in less then 20 mins ( as a newbie your brain will still be back at base)
training in ryanair is in complete disarray , whether you are scheduled for base/line training can be complete luck .
and thats all organised by a rather nasty little gnome in eastmids who dosnt give a damn about you and if he can go out of his way to screw you he will (its not really his fault , its the company culture , its what hes been thought to do )

if you want good training i believe easy are supposed to be good
(maybe some one could clarify ? )
in any case thats where my CV's going if ryanair dosnt shape up in the next while

just my 2 cents worth :yuk:

[Peggy Murphy]

Anyone out there who is flying with Aer Arann care to give us their story after twelve months on the ATR?????? Are the conditions better, worse, similar OR are Ryanair in a league of their own.

[Nearly Man]

You could get the rating and go on the game like some of the cabin crew have .. that'd help wouldn't it?

[Flypuppy]

So you going to put on a short skirt and get down Kings Cross NM??
:p

[Captain Chuckles]

Airway asked earlier if it can get much worse.

It can.

You could spend not only money ona type rating but also pay to fly fare paying passengers around for Astreaus.

You can buy 500 hours of "line training" from them. this equates to a pilot not being employed by an airline for a year. What fantastic deal that is.

Ailines such as Astreaus and Ryanair and the awful pay that self funding first officers get on the Air Asia contracts are going to damage the emplyment conditions for pilots throughout Europe.

Please, if anyone is reading this and is considering buying a type rating or line tme, think of the future - your future and what is happening to this industry. there are people out there making big bucks from wannabes so they can fund their retirement. They do not even consider you when they sell you a type rating they are more focussing on the beach bar in the carribean for themselves.

[Nearly Man]

Mine Got .. you've mentioned Astreaus .. you will fry for that :eek:

[ElNino]

CIPO, you too seem somewhat misinformed about the job market. You reckon after you have finished taking it up the a$$ for a year at FR you can go off and get something better? Well, sorry to break the bad news but as FR gets away with this sort of BS, the rest will try to drag their T's and C's down to the same demeaning level. Then your hoped for greener grass will look a similar shade of brown to FR and you will only have 30 odd years to retirement (on a crap pension). I suggest you switch off MS flightsim and talk to some real airline pilots about T's and C's (and I don't mean high seniority people at BA etc on old contracts, which none of us will ever get) and have a look at the Terms and Endearments thread. You, and many other wannabes, may find the experience quite educational, as well as depressing.
The sooner people realise that accepting FR's conditions is only an illusory gain and that they are in fact destroying their own future, the better for us all.

[Re-Heat]

Getting paid, however much or little, to fly a jet is far far better than paying to fly a prop on a 'b&q' salary.

It really isn't OBK! - not with thousands of pounds of debt and being of the intelligence required to pass such exams, it really is not. It is demeaning, drags down industry pay, and it is sad that you would stoop to that level.

Just get a non-aviation job until a better-paid one comes up.

Do you think O'Leary works for free as well?

[Captain Chuckles]

Getting paid, however much or little, to fly a jet is far far better than paying to fly a prop on a 'b&q' salary.

It is this sort of idiotic, short sighted moronic comment that people like Ryanair and other TRTO's are playing on. Working on the fear of people in debt and dangling a carrot of flying a jet. The people who can afford to buy type ratings will drive up to work in their expensive German sports cars they bought when they worked in the City or sold their own business to fund their training. Flying ability is nothing compared to the paying ability, and that is being shown in the quality of some new hires that are appearing on the flightdeck.

[Grass strip basher]

Hey Captain Chuckles

I agree with the paying for type rating comment but hold fire on the having a dig at people who have been successful in another industry before joining the whole aviation scene.... who says just because someone can get through their training without being a £100k in debt they are not going to make a good pilot... thats a pretty big generalisation.

Just ask yourself WHY they have been able to fund their training without getting into debt.... perhaps because they tend to be very bright capable people who work very hard... why does that necessarily make them bad pilots?

One of the frequent complaints I read on Pprune is the "dumbing down" of talent in the industry and pilots being fed up with being viewed as "little more than a busdriver". Well think about it this way... take a look at the academic qualifications and general level of ability you have to demonstrate even to be "considered" as a potential employee of an investment bank, or to become a doctor, dentist even an accountant for that matter... a selection of professions to which comparisons are frequently drawn in reference to pay scales on this very forum. Then take a look at the academic qualifications needed to get on a course at OAT or FTE.... the phrase "night and day" springs to mind.

I'll wager that in the days of the old sponsored training programs unless you were bloody good academically and in terms of all round ability at school/university the chances of getting a sniff of a cadetship was pretty small.

Perhaps your anger would be better focused on ensuring that a higher quality of "wanabee" both academically and in terms of ability is able to start training in the first place rather than differentating simply between those who can pay and those who can't.

Higher basic entrance standards into the profession = fewer but higher quality pilots in my book.... hmmm maybe that would even help overcome the supply/demand inbalance of newly qualified, low houred pilots that enables companies like Ryanair to take the piss??

It would also prevent those that are not up to the grade from starting training in the first place and racking up a huge amount of debt only to end up without a job... they might not like it but you'd be doing them a favour in the long-run

Rather than blame wanabees based on simply whether they are rich or poor why not take a look at the system that is letting in less and less qualified people who are sold a dream by a training organisation whose sole intention is to crank out as many "qualified pilots" as possible.

To turn a well known expression on its head...

"Train monkeys... you only have to pay them peanuts"

... no wonder T&Cs are going only one-way...

[haughtney1]

Grass strip you make some very accurate..and well thought out points...however..you've missed the point. This thread has nothing to do with the quality of wannabe or their ability to get deep into debt....and although your comments are generally accurate(in terms of those with the cash to do it)...I wonder what your level of exposure to the industry actually is..(not a dig at you..just a polite enquiry) The present problem has arisen out of clever marketing, unrealistic expectations, and personal greed. It is overly simplistic to say abritrary standards need to be raised to prevent the "chaff" from entering this profession. As it stands there are plenty of those that are in love with the thought of that shiney braid on their shoulders...the smell of Jet A1...and would be happy to sell their left nut if they thought it would get them a job. I suggest you get off the soap box for a moment and examine the situation pragmatically...then and only then will you see its not a problem with standards..its an issue of those in a postion to exploit...exploiting those who believe they can get there at any cost.

OBK....I dont usually get peeved off but...you Bl@%dy fool....Ryanair will take your money..then take a bit more..then change the rules so they can take the rest....its not an opportunity..its folly..pure and simple. Before you howl at me...I dont fly jets..I fly turbo-props..(happily..contentedly...and someday I'll get a jet job)..having dropped meat bombs...towed gliders...positioned a/c for maintenance..swept floors..worked in pubs...driven a mini-bus. And yes if you think you should jump straight into the RH seat of a shiney new boeing..go for it...I know I'm £30-40 better off already


:mad:

Scroggs sorry for the harsh words.......I just wish these muppets would open their eyes!

[CIPO]

El nino

DO you have a job?
I don't play ms flight sim.
I have 15-20 airline pilots(BMI,Virgin,BA,Aer Lingus) i can talk to.

And as for FR having crap training, you should try and pass their new sim check for cadets............

[signeti]

CIPO
if you calmed down a bit then maybe el nino would talk to you too ......then you'd have another airline pilot you could chat to.

if you read his profile you would see that he is a commercial pilot ,


and while were at it , try passing a sim check in a crap BAC 1-11 sim in dublin
and then complain to me

[ElNino]

CIPO, as signeti points out, yes I do have an airline job. I imagine any one of your mates in "BMI,Virgin,BA,Aer Lingus" would agree absolutely wholeheartedly with what I and others are saying, if for no other reason that it is the T's and C's in these very companies that the FR way has damaged so badly.

Very interesting statistic for those advocates of the FR way as the stepping stone. I believe from very good FR sources that the amount of FR pilots who have succeeded in getting a BA job in the last while is zero and the amount at VS in the last few years is 1. A damning statistic considering the amount of people in FR who consider it as a stepping stone to better. Ponder on that those who want to spend obscene money to recieve peanuts from OLeary.

[Captain Chuckles]

Grass Strip Basher,

You are missing the point I am making. I am very concerned about the current trend of airlines making pilots pay to work. There has always been a large percentage of pilots who have paid for their own training combined with the military retirees, these people have made up the mjority of of the pilot workforce. Sponsored cadets have always been a minority.
What we are now seeing is the cynical abuse of people's hopes and dreams.

My experience of people who have bought a type rating from a third party TRTO is that it does not save the company very much money as they have usually been trained to a different set of SOPs than those that we use. Unless the new hire is very sharp and a good operator, our saving on training costs is not significant. sadly the accountants run the show and do not see what is happening on the line.

Also I do not play MS Flight Sim. I hate it.

[RVR800]

We need some advice from Spaceman1000 on training!

[OBK!]

I don't have a German sports car, nor do I have all the money in the world.

I'm in this game primarily for the flying. Maybe because I'm young, the thought of paying for a type rating doesn't really put me off that much because I've been partly bought up with the fact and I've plenty of time, hopfully, to recuperate from huge debts, and I'm keen.

[WX Man]

So let me get this straight...

1. You apply to GECAT, or whoever, to do a RYR SSTR.
2. They accept you, you do the type rating (£20K)
3. You then apply to RYR (£50)
4. They then sim check you (£???)
5. If "lucky" enough to be offered a job, they pay you peanuts and treat you rougher than a rugby ball at an All Blacks game?

Jeeeeeeeez. I thought I was crazy.

[Ray Ban]

OBK,

At the end of the day flying is a job pure and simple. An enjoyable job it has to be said BUT you still have to earn a decent crust to live. When you factor in the huge initial outlay, idle talk like you are currently spouting makes no sense at all. Or perhaps I'm missing something and you plan to live on hot air alone! :rolleyes: Anyway, as soon as you grow up and realise the folly of your attitude, you might recognise the damage these terms and conditions are doing to the industry.

I have no doubt you will live to regret your attitude one day! :*

[Puritan]

Captain Chuckles - W.r.t. 'My experience of people who have bought a type rating from a third party TRTO is that it does not save the company very much money as they have usually been trained to a different set of SOPs than those that we use'

Err - all other issues aside - given that you say that such training doesn't save a company very much money, could you please explain, in detail, where / how your own airline manages to spend what would be in the region of, say, £18,000 - £22,000 ( the typical cost of a type-rating ) on line-training its SOPS to somebody who has SSTR'd ?

[haughtney1]

Puritan...there are several UK..and EU based carriers currently training crews in the US...for around £11000.00 per person (inclusive of accomodation + airfares)...no vat...JAA compliant.....and with instructors who are every bit as experienced as they are here. Oh and this doesn't take into account the present strength of the pound.
Value for money I think...and yes crews are bonded for 3 years....737, A320, A340, and 767.....(not sure about any other types at the moment).


H
:ok:

[OBK!]

Ray Ban

I don't think that was necessary. We're obviously different but there's no need for childish abuse.

I noticed on your profile that you have an FI rating. I'm not being ignorant here but assuming you are a full time instructor, how do you manage to earn a decent crust? I ask because I'm still investigating the avenues I can go down as a low hour pilot. I've always been told that flight instructors don't earn very much and find it hard to earn a living, especially in the winter.

Cheers

[CIPO]

Obviously snobbery rules with some people here, we've got jobs so lets slag off all those willing to go for Ryanair selection.
All the pilots I know are 100% behind me going for this, and they would NOT agree with your opinions.
I'm not a fool, I know a lot of the t and c's aren't great but i'd rather sign up to it than be a PPL or IR instructor.
All i want is some line experience and am very willing to pay 20k for an 800 TR. Would have second thoughts if it was a 200 or an ATR rating, but you don't get a better rating.
How many 737 3-800's are flying worldwide?????

Hope I don't turn into a job snob when it comes along.........

[Crosswind Limits]

Whilst I don't quite agree with SSTRs I can understand why some of us do them. What I can't fathom however, is that after paying for said type rating and thus saving the airline many thousands of pounds, you have to work for such a shamefully low salary. That's my real problem with Ryanair, they want it both ways, which frankly stinks.

[smith]

Anyone who pays for a type rating is doing themselves and the industry a great disservice.

Why not just join the French foreign legion if you have such mercenary attitudes.

Or don stockings and suzzies if you want to prostitute yourselves!

[Puritan]

haughtney1 - that's great news I’m sure, wherein anything which brings down the cost of training ( so long as standards are maintained ) must be a good thing !

Indeed I myself started out within the USA FAA system ( all self-funded, I hasten to add ) obtaining first my PPL, and then my SE CPL/IR, and then ME CPL/IR, and then ATP - so I know exactly what you are talking about – and wherein I also hold CAA & JAA jet transport type-rating accreditations at ATPL level too.

That said, you did not mention what amount of training, and / or the breakdown thereof off, is included in that price – so please do elaborate; I'm sure that we would all be interested to hear your side-by-side / direct comparison of like-for-like training ( certainly so if it arrives at a seemless transition into a JAR jet type-rating ).

That said, whilst I’m sure that one can obtain cheaper flight training within the USA, I’m still intrigued to understand how and why ‘line-training’ of SOPs ( specifically ) in Europe might cost close on what it likewise takes to type-rate somebody on a jet within the European system ( hence my question to ‘Captain Chuckles’ ).

[haughtney1]

Puritan......yes I know im a sad old git for staying in christmas eve....im saving myself for Christmas day:p

As for your question....I believe the concept as a used car salesman once put it......comparing "apples with apples"...as I understand it (this is second hand....but from the 2IC of training in one particular Airbus operator...to whom I have made a phonecall to check the accuracy of detail...he is also a golfing & drinking buddy of mine) the course consists of all the required elements to complete a JAA type rating in accordance with this particular companies Ops & training manual..I was also told that there is no transition required on return to the JAA region..other than a company base check (which I believe completes the TR) also as this centre has JAR approval to complete TR training they are investigating completing Base checks at the training facility with company pilots. My understanding is however the documentation is still signed off here. Finally LOFT..is completed with company training Captains to reach profficiency....I dont know the minimum number of sectors required to complete this.
As to the quality of training recieved?....I have no idea...the training provider in the US is however VERY well known.
Puritan..please correct me if you see anything that doesnt make sense(im not a training expert!)....as I've said...this is second-hand....but from an impecable and source who is above reproach.
Finally the courses are well advertised..any quick search on the information super highway...should yield results....merry Xmas one and all!:ok:

[Baron rouge]

smith
Or don stockings and suzzies if you want to prostitute yourselves!


It is very funny the illogical way you see things.

If those paying for a TR were to prostitute themselves, they would earn easy money doing that.;)

What happen in fact is that they are going to the whores, and paying a lot for that but if they are not married (don't have a job) there is no other solution for them:cool:

[signeti]

OBK and CIPO
guys i dont think there is any snobbery involved , if any one is wearing blinkers here its the two of ye ....
do ye not think that when all the rest of the professional pilots here advise ye not to seek employment with Ryanair that maybe they have a point

ryanair stinks , i know , i work there

remember ....everyother person that joins after you will join on a worse contract , just as every other person that joined after me did , this will eventually affect the guys ahead of you ... and in time market forces will cause the competition to do the same regardless of how strong their unions are ....

do you really want this ....or do you not care about your
would-be fellow professionals

we all want jobs , we all have bills to pay (you aswell i presume )
but if you kill the golden goose today , you wont get any golden eggs for breakfast tomorrow

happy christmas

[OBK!]

signeti

I think the snob related comment was purely CIPO's, nothing to do with me.

On what terms did you join ryanair and what were your reasons for joining the company?

Cheers

[signeti]

i'll be glad to answer all questions regarding pay and conditions after we have resolved the current issues in ryanair , unfortunetly as everyone is on completely different contracts , its easy for ryanair to narrow it down to quite a few people who wrote what here and i wouldnt draw that sort of attention on myself or my colleagues .
its sad when paranoia like this becomes the norm :(


ryanair was only beginning its journey down the bad industrial relations slope when i joined and its reputation wasnt that bad .

[Maxiumus]

but if you kill the golden goose today , you wont get any golden eggs for breakfast tomorrow

Very well put signeti. This very simple and easy to understand concept is the crux of the matter. CIPO, OBK et al, don't for one moment think that by joining FR on these terms that you will somehow build enough experience to go elsewhere that elsewhere will be any better. Why? As if elsewhere want to compete at FR's level they will claim they need to offer the same Ts and Cs. Whether this claim is valid, and I suspect it
isn't unless you're an accountant :yuk: , it will nonetheless be made.
People have made the claim that as these FNG's are low in experience they should be glad to take so little and be happy. The point being missed here is that, low time they may be, they are still AIRLINE PILOTS. And thus doing the same job as 2500hr FO's both here and elsewhere. If FR, and other airlines, decide that 250hr FO's can do the same, get paid less, what is the incentive to hire experienced people? So now the scenario exists where pay gets forced down and down for all FO's, in any airline. This will also decrease job mobility which will in turn lower Ts and Cs. Whereby captains pay will inevitably follow south.
CIPO, OBK etc, think this through carefully as once you set foot on the slippery slope, your prospects are not going to get much better.

CIPO, as for your buddies in "BMI,Virgin,BA,Aer Lingus" who allegedly agree with your course of action, absolute poppycock. Such pilots will never, and rightly so, agree with your actions for the very reasons I have outlined above, plus a large number of other reasons.

I should also point out to those who inevitably fall back to bleating "but its a 737NG, yadda, yadda, yadda". It is, but the thrill of it being that will wear off rather quickly when you realise you're broke. And don't have any great Ts and Cs to look forward to. I reckon this will take about 6 months at most, if you are like everyone else who starts an airline job.
Are you all aware that FR captains have been known to have to give newbie FO's money at the end of the day so they could actually afford to buy dinner?

[Push to talk]

Since this is all about pay and Ryanair.

Does somebody know how much the difference in pay is with Ryanair between a UK base and if you are mainland based. Because apparently the pay is quite different.

Ptt

[CosmosSchwartz]

Why not moan about emerald's pathetic salary

because (according to the latest on ppjn anyway), Emerald pay more than Ryanair do for a new fo? £18k, half pay on base training. Sounds a better deal than Ryanair for the first 2-3 years.

[lasloflyer]

Some of you guys are never happy.

I've recently been offered a Cadet position with Ryanair. I have got myself in huge debt to get to this positon but unlike you guys I have a bit of foresight. Look around, how many other company's are expanding/recruiting like Ryanair. Sometimes guys you've got to take an initial hit to progress in life.

I hope some of you take this onboard.

[stev]

look as far as i can see they'll be the ones with egg all over them.
Bmi and BA are all looking for the fATPL pilots with the top marks from Jerez and other schools. So knuckle down study hard and then the good airlines WILL be interested in you. Their only gettin away with it because the business was so slack the last few years.:*

[jamestkirk]

Just been reading the thread which covers SSTR and Ryanair pay.

I agree with nearly every comment here. It is frustrating to think that you have to pay for the TR. Although, when you are as desperate as some of us our, it seems the only logical step forward. Irrelavant, if not undestanding, of the moral implications we are reflecting of the industry.

If i had the money to do it, then i probably would. Then bear the bad T's & C's, and keep my head down until something better came along.

I am not too sure on the bonding conditions so please do not put me on the rack for the above comment.

I have heard from a few people at my local airfierld concerning people who have SSTR and been out of work 1+ year. That i think is a bitter'er pill to swallow after doing the TR in the first place.

This is without doubt, the most fickle, confusing sometimes morally absent industry i have ever experienced. And i am still just looking in from the outside!.

As puritan said, "no guaratees with any of it". It's a very sobering statement. I thought that getting acting work was difficult. NOTHING compared to this. It is said that 98% of equity card members are out of work. I would like to know how many newly qualified fATPL'ers are in the same position. The two most difficult industries i have tried to find work in.

I am still possitive however, believing there is a Cessna 150 for all of us out there, chartering business people from elstree to Denham......how glamorous.

[Slim20]

I would say to everyone - get used to it. The Ryanairs and Easyjets of the world are driving down T&Cs for everyone.

Just a few years ago no airline was arrogant enough enough to ask anyone to pay for a type rating - it was taken as read that they would pay for it and you would go on a bond for a determined time.

Now it's becoming the norm in the UK to expect new joiners, even those with lots of experience and a proven track record, to stump up for a type rating.

Constant expansion, increased competition, but no substance. Easy or Ryan could be the richest companies ever to collapse overnight. Then where would you be with your 500 hours and type rating? Hope you like halal food folks cos that's where you'll find the contract work.

[chuckyaeger]

The salary and conditions are dredful.

Sure, the market works on supply and demand.

If every one says NO to Ryanair than surely they will have to go to plan two. (they pay for type and bond for 3 years.fullstop)

The market is picking up big time and soon there will be a shortage. Ryanair will have to reconsider.

In the mean time hold tight and DONT PAY FOR TR ANYWHERE!!!!

this must all come to a stop and pilots must be treated as professionals and equals.

[RowleyUK]

Air Southwest pay 16,500 per year..................so its not only ryanair!!

[flying paddy]

For Gods sake, when will we pilots learn, stop pandering to the airlines (Ryan Air???) every need and we may get treated like professionals. I blame all you silly people out there who pay the money in the first place. We are our own worst enemy. MUGS.

[chockstarfish]

I was always of the belief that a pilot should not pay for a type rating. Bonding a pilot I can understand, but a few things lately have changed my opinion ...

Lets start out with pay in other countries...I know of a national carrier in an english speaking country that starts the f/os off at under 20 000 sterling a year with no bond in place or a pay for your type rating. Now I have never really seen anyone complain about this carrier or the pay awarded for new joiners. I am also aware of a Low Cost in this country much like a Ryan or Easy Jet that pays very very low less then 20 000 sterling and works the pilots very very hard and yet again not many people complain about this company....

If someone offered you a return on your investment in three years time of 20 percent or more guaranteed, would you accept it??? Of course you would..

So now I come to Ryan air, they make you pay for most things, your interview, your sim check, your water, your medical and so on, but is anyone going to argue that in three years time you will not be making more then enough money to live comfortably?? Is Ryan air not paying close to or more than the national carrier here yet hiring so many more then the national carrier here?

If I was to pay for a rating, and my return pay in the years to come was not worth it then yes I am totally against it. But that is not the case with Ryan air, THEY PAY WELL......

Now you have 250 hour guys complaining about the t/c of these companies yet they live in a country that offers them the opportunity to fly a jet, go to north america guys, work out on the ramp for an airline for 2 or 3 years hoping they may throw you in a 172 hauling freight, or try flying a navajo with 2 inches of ice covering it, flying into places like Terrace or even worse approaches that you cant even imagine here for 10 000 sterling a year living in the hangar trying to make ends meet.

That country doesnt have airlines that make you pay for a rating yet the T/C are far worse then anything you can imagine in this country and to fly a jet in that country would take you at least 3000 or 4000 hours.... The brits love to complain, its part of the heritage here and yet they have some of the highest paying jobs around for experience achieved.....

T/C are determined not by paying for a rating, but by the amount of pilots looking for work...10 000 pilots 5000 jobs t/c will go down...

Now my final points...Someone will say but its so expensive to live in this country, all I can say is what a load of as you say bollocks, dont live in London. Its as affordable to live in the UK when not in the Major cities as it is anywhere else in the world...

In this country it seems expected that once you have a multi IR you should be flying a 737 800 and if it doesnt go your way you become bitter and twisted and lash out at all the others trying to make something of themself...

Again name an airline here that pays 10 000 sterling a year flying single pilot ifr approaches in the mountains and I may listen to the complaining.....(but its all good because you dont have to pay for the training!!!!!!)

ps...before someone complains that i am Management for the above stated airline that makes you pay for your training, I can assure you that I am not or am I associated with it in anyway. Some people here can be free thinking in their opinions without being management...

I wish all of you out there all the best in your hunt for a job, keep your head up your attitude of the highest calibre and that great job will come your way at some point....

csf

[fixer800]

QUOTE:
In this country it seems expected that once you have a multi IR you should be flying a 737 800 and if it doesnt go your way you become bitter and twisted and lash out at all the others trying to make something of themself..
__________

Ha ha ha ah it's true. If you dont like it go to australia/canada and try 'flying a plane full of rubber dog sh*t out Hong Kong' for 5 years just trying to get a sniff at a regional turbo prop.

Nice as it might be to have your rating, hotels, socks and jocks paid for by your employer (i've spoke to a few with this kind of package) it doesnt work anymore! he could be sitting in the right seat for 15-20 years before he gets command. Ryr will put you there in 4-5Max.

Besides it's an Irish airline. Go join BA:yuk: and complain how miserable and tight they are instead.
The industry has changed, deal with it!

chockstarfish great post most sense ive heard on this forum to date.

[Re-Heat]

You two (chockstarfish & fixer800) are the same person - you make the same grammatical errors. Nice try whomever you are.

[chockstarfish]

thanks for the compliment on my post,

Or am i talking to myself now!!

csf

[fixer800]

Ah FFS! Grammatical Errors? Schizophrenia? Conspiracy Theory's! don't you have anything better to do!!!?