Hours flown vs. emergency situations [Archive]

kopter

18th Dec 2004, 11:41

I'd be interested to know the following... Hours flown vs. emergency situations... i.e.

Up to X amount of pic hrs = What % of heli pilots have encounter a "Land now" failure/problem on the aircraft.

A - Zero to 1000hrs = ?%
B - 1001 to 2500 hrs = ?%
C - 2501 to 5000hrs = ?%
D - 5001 to 7500hrs = ?%
E - 7501 to 10000hrs = ?%
F - 10001hrs to 15,000 = ?%
G - 15,001 to 20000 = ?%
H - 20001 plus = ?%

As I'm about to hit 3000hrs I can't help but think more and more about "When" as oppose to "If" the engine or a major component decides to quit!

In order to be definitive, the criteria should really be... Have you ever had to land immediately due to the failure of a component where further flight was not possible?

Please answer the question with A / B / C / D / E / F / G / H and then state the nature of the emergency…

Thanks.....
:} :sad:

jayteeto

18th Dec 2004, 12:21

C. Transmission seizure at 1500' on an RAF Puma in Belize with a very undignified arrival in a jungle swamp. Needed new underwear.

XT244

18th Dec 2004, 14:11

B) Bell47
Loss of power at 800ft Gnd / 7'400 MSL
Sunny day, no wind, –15C
A bold between the throttle and the cambox was broken
Engine runs in idle only
Normal autorotate in a snowfield
Mechanic’s has repair it a few hours later
In the evening flown back to my Homebase

Devil 49

18th Dec 2004, 17:48

A- Main GB dumps lube (long time ago, I don't remember how I was made aware... The long time down to Mother Earth IS etched in my memory)

YOu didn't ask for multiple entries...

Gomer Pylot

18th Dec 2004, 17:54

Something over 12,000 hours (I haven't kept close track in awhile) and I've never had a major problem. One transmission oil pressure light in an AS350D, caused by a pinched o-ring, but Aerospatiale said it would run for 30 minutes without oil. I still had a quart or so left when I finally found a platform. :cool: Same AStar developed a leak in the fuel manifold behind the engine, and had been spraying fuel onto the combustion chamber for awhile, but apparently it sprayed enough to cool things down. I found it on postflight, and wondered how that water got in there. :mad: Lots of chip lights along the way, but nothing catastrophic. The lesson from these is to always believe the light. One chip from a 206B transmission light had a number on it. :uhoh: But almost all of these occurred before takeoff or after landing, few in flight. :ok:

CyclicRick

18th Dec 2004, 17:58

B= Total hydraulic failure in a 206, a pipe connector had come loose and discharged the contents all over the decking, flew back (about 5-10mins) cleaned, repaired withoin 2 hours back in the air.
B= Total electric failure in an AS350, flew back to base. new battery installed, earth cable replaced carried on.

Not too bad sofar in helicopters...BUT...two engine failures within within 140hrs!

Merry christmas to all and a much better new year :ok:

Rick

PS: two engine failures in FIXED WING within 140hrs
:hmm:

Rick

SASless

18th Dec 2004, 18:22

10,000 hours plus and not counting...

One complete and rather sudden engine failure....H500D at 9,800 feet coming off a low mountain in Alaska. Found the ground without a mark on the aircraft....did need a new seat cushion and a pair of trousers. That is way, way, way too high for that to happen.

Cockpit fire in a CH-47A....Utility Hydraulic system sprung a leak and caught fire after a .51 caliber round passed through my side of the cockpit removing the left pedal from under my foot. Melted the aluminum skin halfway back on the side of the aircraft. Aircraft had to be slung out for rebuild in the USA. Needed new pants and gloves after that one. This is my claim to flame story.

UH-1D....tail rotor failure at a hover. Spectator to this event. Other guy was driving. No damage.:ok:

rotorspeed

18th Dec 2004, 18:34

Around 5000 hours, B206, AS350B, AS355. No major dramas, just chip lights. T/R x 2, 1 leading to overhaul, one not significant; MGBX x 1, lead to overhaul, Engine x 2, one false, one carbon build up. No electrical or hydraulic failures. No engine failures or loss of power.

Pretty good so far, but I'm not relying on it!

offshoreigor

18th Dec 2004, 20:54

Merry Xmas All!

7700 hours and nothing major yet! Knock on wood!

A: S61A Catastrophic Failure of MGB on Start! Lucky!

:ok: OffshoreIgor :ok:

Fortyodd

18th Dec 2004, 21:44

5700 in total. Have had a few problems with time to think/plan/sort out but only 2 "Land Nows!"
B - had a Battery decide to boil over - got a bit smelly to say the least.
and C - switched on the wipers on finals at which point the motor decided to burn out filling the cockpit with smelly smoke. Completed approach with head half out the window - not my best or most precise landing ever but it was quick!!

ShyTorque

18th Dec 2004, 22:13

Quote: "7700 hours and nothing major yet! Knock on wood!"

7700? I would be VERY careful not to squawk about that number...

BlenderPilot

18th Dec 2004, 22:37

I guess it really depends what aircraft you're flying in, I have friends who have had everything happen to them in 2000 hours, engine failures, gearbox failures, fires, etc. but mostly took place on pistons or on old wornout aircraft, working for companies who had these old aircraft because they couldn't afford new ones.

Myself and the group of pilots I work with have rarely ever had anything else than hydraulic leaks, and I once had the XMSN oil go over sea on a 212, which was pretty stressful but that is about it,

The reason is because most helicopters around here are new, and all maintenance is done by the book, no expense spared. For example the local offshore company has a requirement to fly only 412's that have less than 5000 hours or have less than 10 years, when these aircraft pass their mark they end up flying elsewhere. All maintenance personell is trained at Bell and they all take great pride to work with aircraft.

Don't get me wrong, I just flew last week the longest flying JetRanger in the world according to Bell, but it looks as nice as the day it came out of the factory, and you could eat of the engine covers, but if you fly for a cheap company flying old aircraft you will have plenty of stories to tell the kids, if you are lucky.

offshoreigor

18th Dec 2004, 22:45

ShyQ

Oh ****e! I never thought about it that way! Now I will have to hide forever! LOL.

Its not just an adventure....It's JUST A JOB!

Merry XMas

:ok: OffshoreIgor :ok:

oldbeefer

19th Dec 2004, 09:20

A - hydraulic jack on Puma undercarridge blew its end off when lowering the gear at night. Had to refuel in the hover (with no AP) while the engineers built a sandbag platform to land the nose on (This was the first time it had happened. They were more prepared for subsequent similar problems)

B - engine failure in a Whirlwind @1500ft. Auto into a convenient field.

D - rear pockets on a Puma tailroror blade came unstuck (!). Huge vibration. Put it down in another Belizian swamp. Considerable repairs required to cracks around the pylon (even though only flying for about 60 secs after the incident). Flew it out a week later.

Now on 9k. Nothing else of interest - still touching wood.

jellycopter

19th Dec 2004, 10:13

Yikes! I think I should get another job!

6300 hours TT. Lost count of incidents but without trawling through my logbooks, here are the memorable ones.

JP3 - Port U/C collapse on landing despite 3 greens. 130TT

Hunter - Compressor blades crept to touch the casing. Radar 1 in 1 PFL to Yeovilton with 250' cloud break. (Just a pax) 40TT

Gazelle - Squeel from Engine caused by FCU bearing failure. No power loss. 700TT

Wessex - 2 engine run-downs, 1 run-up and 3 freezes in 700 hours! Also fully developed retreating blade stall at 100ft low-level. I learnt about flying (and brown trousers) from that! 700TT

Puma - Starter motor fire on start-up. Wire strike in Belize - the army had helpfully strung a comms antenna across the airstrip we were using! No 2 Oil Px failure IMC 100 miles out to sea with a 50kt head-wind (very long time to shore!). No 2 Hydraulic failure in Turkey. Also FOD ingestion in Tail Rotor (100m of mine tape) landing in Turkey. MGB Px failure due to Eurocopter leaving a 1kg bag of silica gel in the rotor shaft after servicing. Gearbox cowling detached in flight and damaged all 4 main blades (I learnt about student walk-rounds from that!). Rather amusing (in retrospect) genuine brown trouser incident after dodgy curry the night before when coming in to land at Fox Covert DZ. Rapid shutdown and generous application of kimwipe to effected area required. (Geoff Longmuir the crewman was a real gent and didn't even break the news to the Sqn when we got back!) 1200TT

AB205 - Engine failure in mountains at 200ft in climb out. (this one was a write off - but we all walked away!!!) Compressor stall at high altitude during sling-load ops. 700TT

AB212 - only did 70 hrs TT and still managed a No2 oil px failure at night over the desert. 70TT

A109 - No 2 engine failure IMC with no autopilot. Several CHIPs. 200TT

Rotorway Exec - Engine failure at 150ft on climb out. Engine failure during autorotation flare recovery. 150TT

AS350 - Fire Warning light - spurious (Yesterday!) 1400TT

J

ShyTorque

19th Dec 2004, 11:07

offshoreigor,

Quick, Get out there and do one more hour... and be careful :ooh:

I'm not really superstitious.......Touch wood! ;)

Merry Christmas to you, too.

Most scary one for me was the time my Puma made the most awful noise grinding noise from the main gearbox area. We really thought the main gearbox was breaking up and my initial thought was to put it down on the trees (Belize jungle, at low level over 200 foot trees at the time). Thankfully I didn't as it was only (!) pump cavitation caused by a major hydraulic leak in the nose gear system that dumped all the fluid in about five seconds. My reactions were pretty quick in those days and the u/c came down as we turned round in very short order and went back to the jungle helipad. Just as well because there was only about ten minutes fuel and there were no facilities to land on sandbags at the destination (Rideau camp). Stranded us for about half a day. About 600 hours ish.

Strange how so many of these were in Belize...... :suspect:

k9medic

19th Dec 2004, 17:41

In my first 500 hours of flight time I had a bird strike in a Hughes 500, two windshield seperations in a Hughes 300, and an engine failure in a Hughes 300. I also had low rotor RPM on approach due to a belt failure during a rotorway 162 test flight

Also in this same time frame in fixed wing aircraft I had a vacuum pump failure, a hydrolic failure, another bird strike, and a dispropotionate flap failure (only 1 flap down)

I think I have had enough emergencies for now.

goaround7

19th Dec 2004, 19:23

Enstrom (what else ?) valve failure on second solo cross country. High speed run on into area next to township (SA), bent pitot tube only. Getting out of township was however brown trouser operation. 42 hours TT

Spurious engine chip light, B206 doing film work at 2000 TT.

HughMartin

19th Dec 2004, 21:20

>15,000:1 so far.

Looks like the odds are stacked against me from now on

jayteeto

19th Dec 2004, 22:34

Old Beefer.... Now I know who you are! In my groundcrew days, I was on the team that recovered your ac from the swamp. One hell of a crash :ouch:
Jellycopter.... So, you s**t yourself in the cockpit. You had the audacity to criticise the student at Shawbury who swamped the seat and didn't tell anyone until Jean-Pierre sat on it. John, I am afraid that you will never be allowed to live this down ;)

Gordy

20th Dec 2004, 01:37

Just the more memorable ones:
Engine failure in the hover R-22 2000 hours TT All R-22
settling with power to the ground (had almost recovered) doing external load in R-22 2500 hours TT All R-22
Birstrike at night into wirestrike kit, Thought we had been shot at in Bell 407 5000 hours TT 350 on type
Stuck pedals Astar B2 8500 hours TT 3000 on type
Hydraulic failure Astar B2 11000 hours TT 5500 on type

Never damaged an aircraft yet and hope I never will!!

Buitenzorg

20th Dec 2004, 23:11

3,300 hours in helicopters.

One clutch light for 6+ seconds in an R22 – luckily on short final! Pulled the breaker and landed, turned out to be a blown fuse.

That was the only “land NOW” situation. I’ve had several chip lights, two for real (B206L engine and AS350B engine, over solid jungle with an empty line on) and one probably for real (third light in a few hours on a gearbox within 10 hours of TBO, replaced without further ado), one battery overtemp warning (went out after switching battery off while descending for precautionary landing), and some fuel filter lights. Several returns and precautionary landings ensued, plus two precautionary landings to wait out bad weather.

Four bird strikes, small birds only (swallows or minnows) on the fuselage and skids, no damage but the loud bangs sure got the adrenaline pump going.

Complete electrical failure in a Cessna 152, at night, over an undercast on an IFR flight plan (alternator belt slipping). Sounds more exiting than it was, I had 4 hours fuel for a 1-hour flight, the cloud deck ended (as it always did) about 20 miles inland, and the area was lousy with airports. Found the first airport in the clear and landed, worried more about possible license ramifications than the emergency itself, but never heard a thing after a phone call to TRACON.

NickLappos

21st Dec 2004, 05:25

7500 hours:
17 engine failures
several bullet holes of various caliber
one engine fire
4 or 5 hydraulic failures
one big fuel leak
one hard landing
one heart-stopping upside down event from a guest pilot
one sliding door open event at Vne
miscellaneous doors, cowlings and panels disappearing during flight.
One set of rigging blocks tossed into a hangar wall

and a partridge in a palm tree....!

SASless

21st Dec 2004, 07:43

17 Engine failures Nick old bean??? Not CT-7's I pray?

John Eacott

21st Dec 2004, 09:02

Gawd, where to start :rolleyes: Only 13,500 hours, plenty to go....

The occasional fire warning (spurious, but Not a Nice Thing off a carrier, at night in the gloop)
MGB dumped oil pressure (and oil over the back seat crew), again in a Sea King
Thermal runaway on Sea King battery, night trip off NW France, foul deck on the RFA, no comms, actually briefed for ditching just before the deck cleared. Black hand gang had to cut the battery cable with bolt croppers to fix the problem!
PT6 turbine let go, North Sea Brent Field Bell 212. SE landing on a rig helideck. Tail rotor peppered with shrapnel holes.
Bell 212 main rotor blade flapped at 30% Nr on shut down, cut through tail rotor drive shaft: North Sea deck, new helipad too near the deck edge.
B206 compressor let go on short finals to Yarra River helipad: firm landing!
B206 exhaust clamp broke in flight.
B206L wire strike, low level filming. Interesting what goes through your mind when nearly vertical nose down, pulling power to break the power line. And how the training kicks in when the power line breaks, and the reversal chops off the tail boom. End result, a convertible Long Ranger.
Hydraulic failure, LongRanger
Numerous chip lights, one gave us a single engine recovery with the State Premier, notorious for being a Nervous Passenger, A109
Pax door went walkabout at 160kias, A109
Tail rotor strike, night landing at 20 feet, fire call. Own goal again :(
Fixed wing stuck in icing, chunks of ice off the props holed the nose before we got down :(

Funny ones:
Tooling around the AFWR (Atlantic Fleet weapons Range) in the Caribbean, we found an expended missile floating under it's parachute. Not too difficult to snare it with a grappling hook on the winch cable, but once the chute came out of the water, the Sea King downwash did a remarkable job of filling the chute with air.
Picture a cool, calm pair of pilots suggesting to the winch crew
"get rid of it"
"What, cut the cable?"
"No, don't cut the bl##dy cable!"
"What should we do?"
"Get rid of it"
After an interminable minute going sideways, being chased by the world's biggest parachute, the grappling hook solved the problem for us by straightening out one hook and dropping the parachute and missile :ok:
We managed to smuggle the hook down to the workshop for repair, and never got sprung, but what strain we must have put on the winch, I shudder to think :rolleyes:
Not as bad as the crew off Indonesia who tried to fish for a Manta Ray with the rescue hoist, and unravelled the cable. That one didn't get hidden from the boss ;)

Billywizz

21st Dec 2004, 10:46

22hrs TT had an engine misfire on first solo flight as student.

1000hrs TT drive belts decided to jump ship at 900ft in an R22

Touch wood nothing since

oldbeefer

21st Dec 2004, 14:31

Looking at all the above, I think i'm glad that I've flown Westlands/Eurocopter for most of the time!!

NickLappos

21st Dec 2004, 15:55

SASless,

Of the 7500 hours, about 5000 is test of one kind or another, and 2,000 is experimental test. The one T-700 failure I have had was back in 1974!

SASless

21st Dec 2004, 16:19

Nick old chap....we are all test pilots of a sort....everyday we test the aircraft to see if the components will make it to TBO before failing!

Flying at the Agusta factory on Chinooks....Design engineers walked up with lots of drawings...fine measuring tools...and a swoop of production folks to include QA guys.....asked to borrow the aircraft for a few minutes during our preflight.

After a few minutes....they politely suggested we not fly the aircraft until they changed a part....small part....insignificant part...like part of the Synch shaft that connects the two rotors....mis-manufactured part!

I understand the "Test" part of your work.....

goaround7

21st Dec 2004, 16:32

R22 1,000 TT Alternator seized 1 mile from airfield, drag on engine from jammed alt belt brought down RPM to where horn went off. Entered auto into industrial area but didn't close throttle. Belt melted and snapped as entered the flare, engine restored rotor rpm just before touch down, now sideways from failing to counter torque. Could have flown back to base but requested engineer to fix on site, please !

Student with me said it was the most exciting lesson ever - I bloody hope so.

Thomas coupling

21st Dec 2004, 17:00

7000 ish to date:

Running thru log book:
2 x engine failures in S61: 1 in in hover with 4 torpedoes on board! Bounced off sea before jettisoning them! 1: No5 brg broke up.
2 x engine failure in AS355. 1 at night in hover over city. 1 compressor break up in orbit over city.
1 x battery thermal runaway in S61 . Lost front section of cockpit just ahead of yaw pedals.
1 x engine fire in flight (spurious on landing) AS355. Casualty on board, 1/2 mile offshore, coasting out.
3 x primary hyd failures (S61).
MGB chips - approx 8-10 on various helos.
eng chips: approx: 4-5 on various.
TRGB chips: 2-3 on various.
1 x runaway up in hover in S61.
loads of miscellaneous ancillary probs: starter/gen/electrical etc.

The older the cab the more chance of it going wrong it seemed for me.
The new(ish) cab is almost fault free.........

Mind you it's taken 25 yrs to get my 7000hrs, so can't complain at the frequency...can I?

Droopy

21st Dec 2004, 18:51

8800;

Boiled a Puma gearbox 1983, ended up on a support vessel called the Charley Graves so at least we could say we were back from the Graves:rolleyes:

Spat out a PT6 turbine 1986

A wide and interesting variety of minor failures but none apart from the above that I'd call emergency situations.

Giovanni Cento Nove

21st Dec 2004, 19:04

About 7.5K, 6.5K Rotary rest in planks.
The memorable ones.......

Plank.

PA28 Lyco 320 - Dropped EXH valve, amazing how the broken bits get through the induction and beat all the plug gaps closed on the other cylinders! Puts it out of its misery though.

C172 Lyco 320 - Magneto seized. Engine about 10 TSO. Went OK again after the idler gear finally gave up and sheared all the teeth off.

C172. Windscreen failure. No evidence of hitting anything either.

Helicopter.

B473B1. Oil scav blockage (carbon). Just became airborne, pedal 180 can't see where to go for blue smoke, pedal turn back to where I was and look at Oil pressure which is now zero. Shut off immediately, exit aircraft and use abundant amount of available sand to extinguish fire as contents of oil system now resides in the red hot turbocharger.

206B2. 2.5 Bearing failure. BF SW QLD.

205A1. Engine chips and Oil Temp Off clock. 12 miles offshore and 14 other pairs of eyes looking at the same problem. Had bags on. WTF keep going after weighing up the options.

205A1. Hydraulic check valve split. Dumped all the red stuff. 22 miles offshore on island. Single HYD one as well.

205A1. Scissor link rotating bolt head broke off. Small piece of the head stopped it leaving altogether.Engineer wanted to replace bolt. I suggested he change ALL the bolts. I won, see you tomorrow after 10 pints of Voll Damm. Spanish beer (9%). These bolts are all changed each 1000 hours.

205A1. Hydraulic pump failure - all the red stuff fell out.

205A1. Compressor stalls in flight. Bad engine and bad IGV settings.

B212. Engine chips. Don't wait for the 3rd one on a PT6. Wheeled it into shed.

520N. Weak air/fuel ratio. Own fault as took advice from someone else as to the burn. Stopped at about 6 feet next to the bowser.

600N. Fadec runaway. Bad PLA Potentiometer. BF Indonesia.

A109E. FADEC Fail. Dirty connectors.

A109E. Transmission fairing access door nearly came off. Broken hinge. Held on by catches (sort of)

A109E. Nose gear door hinge failed. 5 times before we figured out why.

MightyGem

21st Dec 2004, 20:44

5500hrs

Not a great deal really:

TR chip on T/O - 206 Kiowa
Various oil pressure transmitters on Lynx. All spurious but had to shut the engines down, just in case.
Couple of bird strikes.
Eng Chip on AS 355
Hot battery on AS 355

Bit boring really, long may it continue!

SeaEng

21st Dec 2004, 23:02

Nick,
7500 hours: 17 engine failures Sounds exciting, an engine failure every 441 flying hours!

When these failures occured were you generally left with one, none or two serviceable engines? ....... and, if all three answers apply.... which option (albeit enforced) felt most comfortable/uncomfortable immediately following the failure of the first engine?

SASless

21st Dec 2004, 23:16

Now Nick....you got me to thinking here.

That is a scary thing....I start thinking I gets sleepy.

You have had 17 engine failures....I have had one...you quoted a number along the lines of one engine failure per 0.000008 hours or something like that during the thread about 212/412 Elevated Deck Takeoff profiles .....why is it I feel a bit flumoxed over the remote possibility of engine failure you tell us about and the staggering number of engine failures you have experienced. Is there an unusual distribution of probabilities going on here. Please tell me I am not due more of these things and that you are willing to accept my share and prevent me all that thrill.;)

Ah, found yer post Nick....my alcohol ravaged brain is playing tricks on me....I misquoted you....you talked about exposure and not rate of engine failures.....my apologies.

The post in question...in part here...

"The actual exposure time is only about 5 seconds or so, and the probability of engine failure in that tiny window is truly nil. For the T700 family, the US Army experiences 1 failure each 500,000 hours of operation, so if the 5 seconds of exposure were repeated each hour, and you fly 1000 hours per year, and you have Cat A stay-up ability otherwise, the probability of an engine failure occuring to you during the takeoff exposure window would be about 0.000000000005. Typical rig engine failure experience bears this out."
:ouch:

Devil 49

22nd Dec 2004, 02:40

Merry christmas, everybody.
Reading the "adventures" here have finally convinced me-
We're all nuts. And lucky.

Digressing from the worthy thread-
Twinstar, initial contact with the tower inbound, and then Wham! Right yaw, approximately 30 degrees and immediately- whoopee- back to center... All the gauges and lights, nominal. Hmmm...
I land, and the wrenches crawl over it for an hour, and shrugging say "We can't find anything wrong."
"How about I crank it and you guys listen, look and check it out? I didn't imagine it."
"Okay"
Checklist complete, I push the button, and get ingniters but no rotation.

Long story short, one of the stator vanes (or whatever you call'em) in the last row of the 250-c20 had dropped inflight, but had twisted and lodged in the taper, stalling the engine- which relit (auto-relight), and hadn't proceeded thru any of the compessor stages. When I shut down, it came unstuck, fell over and locked the axial disk-hence no rotation.

Then there's the time a student blew a fire out...

NickLappos

22nd Dec 2004, 03:39

SASless and Seaeng,

The number of failures is associated with the fun of flying experimental engines and (even more fun) experimental fuel controls. I flew one aircraft that had the ability to switch from one set of conventional controls to a set of digital controls while in flight (!) This aircraft accounted for several of those failures (I count a failure as one we hadn't planned on stopping, BTW). If I tallied in the inflight shutdowns, it would be hundreds.

The reliability of engines is always fun to talk about, but I realize that I should have also listed the vast number of subsystems "issues" delt with where the thing we are experimenting with didn't work properly, and we had to use backups. Were I to remember the number of such events, it could be in the dozens - like gearbox overtemps, engine overtemps, high vibration on systems - all of which lead to monitored, safe flight aborts. When we fly experimental flights, we have literally a dozen engineers monitoring these systems on telemetry screens, all looking with beady eyes for problems. Nice to have friends like that!

This experience makes great war stories, and also leads to a way of thinking about emergencies that helps one write the procedures that go to the operator.

Specifically for the engine failures, about 4 of those were in singles where the choice was autorotate or restart, the rest were in Cat A twins where the event resulted in a fly home on the remaining one, with no issue at all regarding safety. One was an inadvertant shutdown during the first critical Cat A landback in the S-76A, which worked as advertized, thank goodness!

Gomer Pylot

22nd Dec 2004, 03:44

Speaking of lights coming on, how the %&$#@&% did Bell ever certify the 412 with caution lights coming on being normal? Having the fuel transfer light (which also turns on the Master Caution light) come on (signifying only that the fuel in one of the 10 cells is exhausted, I don't really care) at rotation off a rig at 3AM is really, really annoying. Sometimes heart-stopping. Same thing on really short final. It's bad enough in cruise, or anywhere else. That's just piss-poor engineering. I absolutely detest flying 412s at night.