Good News For Southampton Apt?

[surely not]

Just heard on the local news that the old railway works at Eastleigh are to close down. Bad news for the workforce, but does this give the BAA an opportunity to purchase additional land and lengthen the runway, or does the New Eastleigh works still prevent this?

With a slightly longer runway Southampton would increase its route options and see off Bournemouth with ease.

[we_never_change]

However, between Eastleigh railway works (which is owned by Alsthom), there is a housing estate & another railway yard & train service depot (owned by English, Scottish & Welsh railway) so no chance of the runway being extended.

WNC

[surely not]

I don't remember it that way wnc. The line which used to have steam engines waiting to be accepted for service is right up against the airport perimeter fence, and it was like that 1n 2001 for sure.

[airhumberside]

Can anyone link me to an article about the works shutting down

Thanks

[urdy gurdy]

when you said good news i thought you meant aviance were getting chucked out, lets face it there crap

[niknak]

AH
You'll find it on the BBC News Web Site.

Possibly good news for Southamptons Airport, but not much of a Christmas present for the 480 people who will lose their jobs as a result of the closure.:rolleyes:

[we_never_change]

Surely not,
The line up against the fence isn't the works, it's only a stabling point/servicing depot. The works is adjacent to the Portsmouth line. In between the works & the depot there is a small housing estate.

The depot which shares its boundary with the airport is owned by EWSR whilst, as mentioned in the BBC, the works (which is to close) is owned by Alsthom. EWSR have no plans to close its servicing depot at Eastleigh which means no runway extension.

WNC

[aeftutor]

However if they knock down a couple of Alstoms sheds then install some extra approach lighting, SOU's ILS may be able to get a full CAT either 1 or 2

[terrywilcox]

Well said niknak. As an ex miner I really feel for the 480.

[ForestFlyer]

we never change is spot on with regards to the location of the Alsthom works. However even if land was made available, I believe there are local council agreements that currently prevent the extension of the runway. I'm sure these could possibly be renegotiated, but not without considerable local opposition I'm sure.

[niknak]

If it came to a decision between the two options, would the BAA push for a runway extension or extra apron/development space on the airfield?

The runway is just about long enough to take the majority of aircraft which will meet the demand that the airport caters for, both now and in the long term future, another 100m or so isn't essential and would be very expensive - but would be gratefully accepted by the operators.

Extra parking space etc on the airport would enable the BAA to cater for more aircraft at anyone time, and also see the squeeze on charter and GA operators loosened, all of which leads to more revenue for the airport.

Its ironic that when it comes to swaying the anti airport lobby, they almost always have little to say about extra apron/development space at an airport, but try and lengthen the runway and they come out of the woodwork to protest.

[ForestFlyer]

If it came to a decision between the two options, would the BAA push for a runway extension or extra apron/development space on the airfield?
Apron space, without a doubt. That, and possibly car parking, are the main limiting factors of the airport at present I believe. Seeing aircraft parked on the taxiway overnight, when I drive in to get my regular morning flights up to Manchester, says it all!

They have just started work on the Departure lounge (viewing gallery has been taken away to accomodate), so that will help the Terminal. Check in is probably in need of expansion too, but apron space would have to be the priority. Having said that, the new hand baggage only check in for FlyBE is wonderful.

[we_never_change]

Is there any space on the southside of the runway for expansion?

WNC

[surely not]

I think you mean EASTern side as to the immediate South there is the M27!!

[Jim Morehead]

For the Brits,how long of a flight is LHR to Southhampton? I drove it about 3 months ago and I think it took about three hours. Is that fast ,slow, or about average?

Also I ended up in a small suburb of Southhampton and I can't remember the name. It was close to where the docks are. This town had a small fishing pier or walking pier and was at the end of a small winding street that was fairly steep. There were no large motels/hotels in it and part of the main street was blocked off for pedestrians. A mile or so west there was a Best Western with construction going on in its backyard. I did not see it until I had checked in the 20 room B and B run by a Scottish or Irish woman.

They only had one serious English pub it appeared to be a "do it yourself" and no one left the bar. It was all guys and had a restaurant upstars. Not exactly like one dreams about in a LHR pub filled with georgeous women!

Anyway, does anybody know the small city?I'm guessing it was within 10 miles of Southhampton and I continued westward. I eventually got to Land's End that I had always wanted to see since I had flown over it

I also was impressed because there was not a lot to see in the inland part of England. I would guess that this was the least travelled and lest populated part of England. It was a very windy and cold day at Land's End. It was worth the trip to know I reached the End.

[Jim Morehead]

Mike....I did do some zigging and zagging and I did go fairly fast.

Now that I think about it, getting out of LHR can be back and there was some bumper to bumper traffic.

Was that 66 Nautical or Statute and was that the direct routing!!!!???

I also forgot to add that these people were all driving on the wrong side of the road,but I just ignored them......

I should have said that the police stopped me about 6 times and asked what was my favorite planet.

[eurostar builder]

Theres a lot of people dreaming at Southampton.

The terminal was a mess from the start built the wrong way round and so small.

The land for the post offcice should have never been sold off for post office and industrial use. I know it was privately owned by that was the biggest downfall of the airport.
(You could imagine the terminal at the Mercedes garage and the whole lenth a nice long ramp, for lots of planes, then wake up)

They have the railway and the motorway but thats all they have in their favour.

Just hope Bournemouth Builds their Big Terminal soon.

[Arbottle]

I've been to that place you mention, Jim. Small winding road down a steep hill to a marina - just outside Southampton. Can't remember its name.

I'm amazed you didn't find anything worth seeing "inland" - you must have missed the heaps of ancient towns, Cathedrals, castles & countryside!

[Sir George Cayley]

Demolition of the sheds would remove a significant obstacle and permit better operability of the existing runway.

Sir George Cayley

[DanielP]

Do you mean Lymington, Jim?

Daniel

[ClickRich]

LHR pub filled with georgeous women

Where are you thinking of? The only thing near LHR filled with gorgeous women is the Spearmint Rhino (if the ads are anything to go by ;))- and that's hardly a pub.

I'd be delighted if there were a positive answer to my question, however, me thinks it still has to be a trip into the West End or Richmond or somewhere like that.

[we_never_change]

They could always buy the land off Alsthom & construct some off airport carparking. I'm sure it wouldn't be too long a journey in a shuttle bus.

WNC

[Trislander]

Jim,

Could be Hamble Marina (The MDL one- Is that Hamble Point Marina?) your thinking of, quite modern with a pub called The Square Rigger?

[Nakata77]

can we get back to the topic?

BAA bought SOU in order to stunt any growth it may have seen. Why do you think they built the terminal without much scope for expansion? Selling off the land that could have been used for apron space to the post office!?

Bournemouth will be the airport for the south within 5 years. Southampton will act like the 'city' airport for the south with high frequency and high fares for fat cats.

yesterday 10 diversions went into Bournemouth due the fog at SOU... 4 night stopped.

[ClickRich]

Nakata, I don't see why any company would deliberately stunt any growth of an investment they had made. There must have been circumstances which forced them to sell land to the Royal Mail. The regulatory environment means that BAA cannot cross subsidise capital investment so maybe the land needed to be sold to build the new terminal. Did BAA indeed sell the land, or was it in the conditions of Peter de Savery's clever sale which saw him retain some of the land?

Why the terminal is positioned at right angles to the runway is intriguing. Easy to see with hindsight how this might remove some growth options, but was it oversight or pandering to some other need we have overlooked?

Southampton airport\'s recent purchase of the land North East of the airport makes things interesting. Whilst not directly enabling any runway configuration changes it will create jobs locally and PAX who might use the airport (not to mention put the road through a tunnel and possibly safeguard the land for their own expansion aspirations?):

"BAA acquires 48 acre Northern Development Site at Southampton Airport
Southampton International Airport Ltd, a subsidiary of BAA plc has acquired the Northern Development Site, next to Southampton Airport, from Gazeley Properties Ltd for £5.75 million.

The 48 acre site has outline planning consent for 800,000 sq ft of office and warehouse development and is currently one of the largest sites zoned for employment uses in the local area. Strategically located on the northeast corner of the Airport, the site will require the construction of a new Link Road around the Airport's perimeter to secure its future development and provide fast and convenient access. The provision of the Link Road will also act as a relief road for Eastleigh town centre providing an alternative route for through traffic. This road is often referred to as "the Chickenhall Lane Link Road".

Commenting on the acquisition, David Cumming, Managing Director of Southampton Airport said:

"This is very important news for the region, because it allows one of the largest employment sites on the south coast to be developed, at a location with superb transport links by air, road and rail.

The Northern Development Site has strategic importance for the future viability of Southampton Airport, enabling it to remain as one of the UK's key regional airports and generator of business and commerce in Hampshire.

We will start immediately to plan how we can develop the site and assess how the new link road can be funded, which will not only provide direct access to the site, but also alleviate local traffic congestion by acting as a relief road for Eastleigh town centre.

We look forward to working with BAA Lynton, our commercial property division, Eastleigh Borough Council and Hampshire County Council over the coming months to bring forward development on this site."

Commenting on the sale of the land, John Duggan, Gazeley's CEO said: "We are pleased to be selling this site to BAA. This allows us to focus on our core business of developing large scale distribution space."
"

[ForestFlyer]

can we get back to the topic?

BAA bought SOU in order to stunt any growth it may have seen. Why do you think they built the terminal without much scope for expansion? Selling off the land that could have been used for apron space to the post office!?

Bournemouth will be the airport for the south within 5 years. Southampton will act like the 'city' airport for the south with high frequency and high fares for fat cats.

yesterday 10 diversions went into Bournemouth due the fog at SOU... 4 night stopped.
Nakata, I sense almost a somewhat unfair and biased tone to your posts.

As a frequent flyer from SOU and also an occasional flyer from BOH, I have come to appreciate both airports for what they currently are. Both can improve, and I am certain both will, but I personally don't feel that they will compete directly on many routes.

SOU is currently doing very well but the Terminal is bursting at times, but they are working on that. BAA is a public company which simply would not, and did not I am certain, buy SOU for anything other than well intentioned reasons. I do agree that previous management and the BAA group as a whole did not appreciate the potential at SOU when the Royal Mail land came up for grabs a few years back. But despite that, they have made good progress since, and I have always enjoyed travelling through the airport, on (at present count) up to 10 of their current routes.

BOH have provided me with some good alternatives on a couple of routes. I enjoy flying from there occasionally, although I have to drive there and can't get the train. A new terminal will do wonders down there, but I cannot share your prediction about BOH becoming the main southern airport. Prices on FlyBE might not be quite as cheap as RyanAir or ThomsonFly, but SOU is an easier airport to get to for far more people and the catchment area is far bigger IMO.

I will continue to use both airports and look forward to any competition that BOH may bring to SOU and FlyBE, but I really doubt that BOH's expansion will take too much traffic from SOU in the short or medium term, and probably not at all, as the catchment areas are different.

As for those diversions, I really don't see what bearing that has on anything! I'm sure Gatwick/Heathrow/Stansted/Luton etc, etc lose/gain each others traffic from time to time due to weather too... :cool:

[Jim Morehead]

<<<I've been to that place you mention, Jim. Small winding road down a steep hill to a marina - just outside Southampton. Can't remember its name.

I'm amazed you didn't find anything worth seeing "inland" - you must have missed the heaps of ancient towns, Cathedrals, castles & countryside!>>>

Oh I've been to LHR MANY times and driven all around the country and went there for the first time when I was 23. I just had never see the Southwest part and I had 3 days a few months ago and wanted to put Land's End into my series of life's adventures.

I've been to Duxford, the British War Museum (gotten the British point of view contrasted with the Argentine (they have better steaks <bg> than those mad cows....) point of view from Buenos Aires), Parliment, Churchhill's underground, Black Swan pub, the Aviation Shop, and lots of other colorful places.

I diverted once in a UAL 727 to Cardiff and had 7 people on board and 5 were my family!

Seen the White Cliffs, the Hovercraft, Cambridge, Wells, Bath, Bideford, Felixstowe where the pence machine went nuts and paid me every time. Had a few pints in Sheffield and Liverpool. I've seen a grown many naked and been in a few Turkish gyms.

I love England and from a Yankee's point of view, its an all around good place to be. And of course, in big airplanes, we always HAVE to make the customary turn or two in the holding pattern. This reminds of why dogs lick themselves! It's also like why a dog can't pass up a fire hydrant or a good tree!

Nobody wants to give me a job in England and that's because you ahve funny license and plenty of people who want them.

To be a Direct Entry Captain, you have to go to those OTHER places in the world.

Merry Christmas to all of the world's citizens and may we find peace and properity someday!

DANIELP...It was not Lymington...I think it was slightly east or west of Southhampton by 5 miles or so.

The lady who ran the B and B was BERTA. She did the cooking too! Nice Lady and her English skills were excellent, but she had this accent of sorts!

The place has a small bar and restaurant. It is very close to a place that has 5 roads that come together in a confusing intersection. Car Parking was terrible.

Not that this will change the outcome of humanity,but somewhere west of this area of Southhampton is a business called ROACH FOODS. Not sure if it is named for Mr. Roach or the occupants of the building.

The TIN mines (former) are west out there too!

Trislander...that\'s that it. Fairly steep. Nice pier.

Anyway, I apologize for changing the direction of the thread.

[Harrier46]

Sounds like Hamble, five roads being the Bursledon roundabout?

[Nakata77]

is it only me wanting to stick to the topic?

Forest Flyer:

Yes I may have sounded incredibly biased... thats because I am!

While I appreciate SOU has enviable connections, access and a wonderful modern terminal that people can be proud of I just don't se it as being a low cost hub.

once they called themselves the premier business airport, now the airport for all types of flyer. But i think you'll find BA & Eastern VERY pissed with the managment for allowing flybe's encroachment.

Are they using the extra land for a business park? or apron space to park night-stoppers?

Forgive me for being anti-SOU and pro-BOH.

Diversions from sou into boh are so frequent it just surprises me they can't upgrade their runway to full cat1 at least!





:ok:

[ForestFlyer]

is it only me wanting to stick to the topic?
Nope! ;)

I am pro-SOU and pro-BOH... I presume you are located nearer to BOH, hence the bias, but being a regular commuter living in the New Forest, I just think it's good for the region to have more and more choice. Ultimately more competition is usually only healthy.

I must admit I am not sure what BAA's intentions are with the land, but given that the only real restrictions on the airports growth are the apron space, car parking and the check in/departure lounge, and that the latter two are being worked on, I am confident they are looking at the former also.

As for making the runway Cat I, I can only assume that the low number of diversions and aircraft types that use SOU mean it probably isn't cost effective. Again, I can only summise of course.

I am all for the development of both SOU and BOH. SOU has shown the way in recent years, and I look forward to seeing how BOH reacts, but I am somewhat disappointed when people try to put down one local airport over another... from my point of view, the more from both, the better!

[jabird]

I see VLM have replaced the Brussels service which SN Brussels walked away from.

[ForestFlyer]

It was actually BA CitiExpress who operated the BRU service, with a codeshare with SN Brussels. BA cancelled flights left, right and centre when they had crew shortages for other routes. Thankfully, it's not a route I used much, but I was often there in the mornings when fellow pax were being rebooked via LHR or elsewhere because of BACX's crew problems.

[surely not]

BA's disgruntlement with SOU was due to BRAL/BA Citiexpress taking a high percentage of their card holders and high yield pax from LHR. BRAL loved the place because it made them so much money.

The situation became so bad that it forced BA to drop their fares from LHR, and then to replace some of the SOU based EMB145's with ATP's and J41's. When BAA SOU complained at the damage being done to the routes ex SOU it was clear that BA didn't really care as long as LHR was doing OK.

It is very good news that the BAA have bought the land to the North East and should enable the team to plan for more growth with a lot less juggling.

I hope that SOU continues to grow, it has the catchment area and surface links which BOH can only dream about; but BOH has the runway length that SOU dreams about :D

[GrahamK]

surely not: It's size that matters :ok:

[surely not]

Doesn't matter a jot if you can't use it properly GrahamK :;)

BOH is a difficult to get to, small terminalled, backwater airport with a small catchment area.............................. but a nice runway.

SOU has a lot more going for it IMO.

[FLYboh]

surely not;

BOH and SOU have the same catchment. BOH has 4 million people living within a 90 minute driving distance. We will soon see which of these airports is going to flourish with their varied routes.

When BOH gets its new terminal and direct access road from the A338 it will be real competition to SOU.

The lack of a train station and motorway access doesn't put off nearly 300,000 Ryanair passengers per year, and thats just with 3 daily routes.

With whats been announced, BOH should handle between 850,000 to 950,000 PAX in 2005. This figure will only grow in following years.

You have to remember, if BUZZ hadn't been sold off, that BOH would actually be handling well over 1 million pax by now. With SOU still around 900,000 a year. Flybe only switched to loco because they saw the opportunity open up after Buzz was shut down. That event really has been the catalyst for Flybe and ironically they have Ryanair to thank for it.

[surely not]

My memory may be defective, but I thought that SOU has been handling 1 million pax per annum for several years now.

The proximity of Portsmouth, Winchester, Basingstoke, Chichester, the M3 and the airport station on the main Waterloo - Southampton line give SOU an edge on the catchment area argument methinks.

BOH has errrr Bournemouth, Dorchester and points west.

[FLYboh]

You can check the stats on the CAA website and you will see that SOU only past the million mark last year.

2000 - 854,000
2001 - 857,000
2002 - 788,000
2003 - 1,218,000
2004 - on course for 1.6 million

Re Winchester etc, Yes they maybe closer to SOU than BOH. But they are still in the BOH catchment area. Just like BOH is in the SOU catchment area. It's not hard to see. Just mark out a 90 mile radius on a map around both airports and you'll see that they both share a huge catchment.

Ryanairs flights attract pax from as far as west london. I know people who have just booked the Thomsonfly Palma flights and they live in Cardiff. They've paid £21 return when Easy at Bristol were £101 each. If the flights are cheap enough people will travel some distance to get cheap flights. They saved 4 X £79 = £316. makes it worth while.

You mustn't fall into the trap of thinking that people fly from the closest airport. They don't. Price and choice play a huge part in the decision.

Any how Merry Christmas and we hope to see you on our BOH loco routes in the future. Just as I have used SOU in the past.:ok:

[Trislander]

flyboh I think you'll find British European was in the loco market operating as flybe well before the buzz take-over. It is true that they saw an opportunity after buzz pulled out of BOH and decided to operate similar routes from SOU. Notice they didn't choose BOH for their operation though.

BOH is a great charter airport and may do ok out of the odd scheduled flight but in all seriousness, the terminal is a bit mickey mouse and with regards to pax inbound to BOH, who wants to fly there? SOU has regular trains, buses, the M3/M27 interchange, nearer and quicker to get to London and a well established past.

[Harrier46]

SOU has done extremely well over the years despite repeated attempts to stunt it by the local nimbys and councils. Hampshire has suffered for decades from a succession of anti-aviation councils and this continues today. To have prevailed despite this attitude is something of a miracle! Progress has been interrupted by many "developments" but it still continues.
BOH now has the opportunity to overtake SOU but there is a lot to do to make it a real winner. And geographically it will always have a disadvantage so fares will have to be significantly cheaper than SOU (and BRS) to tempt passengers. I for one certainly wouldn't fancy the cross-country trip from CWL or BRS!

[FLYboh]

Trislander,

Quote 'but in all seriousness, the terminal is a bit mickey mouse and with regards to pax inbound to BOH, who wants to fly there?'

You only have to book on a Ryanair flight to see that there is always a mix of nationalities on the flights. I flew to Gerona airport to visit Barcelona for Easter and can honestly tell you that a good 30% of the flight were Spanish nationals.

Bournemouth is one of the leading UK locations for the teaching of English and we have a number of large financial institutions based here. Chase Manhatten, Portman Building society as well as most of the UK banks and insurance companies have major International offices here.
Poole also has a number of high tech firms based there.

Re the terminal. The airport already has planning permission for a new building capable of handling 1.5million but they will have to re submit plans for a larger building now.

Regarding Flybe. They were not a serious loco outfit until the Buzz event. Now I beleive they are the third largest in Europe and seem to be opening a base in every corner of the UK. More power to them and I hope they aren't spreading themselves too thin.

[ebenezer]

Diversions from sou into boh are so frequent it just surprises me they can't upgrade their runway to full cat1 at least!

Nakata77 in highlighting this shortcoming of SOU hits the 'nail on the head' in that if you want to develop a reliable service at any airport whereby customers who book to fly through it - whether business or leisure - can book with a 95% probability of doing so, you have to offer an 'all weather' facility, unless like Prestwick for example, your weather record is such that fog is an infrequent occurrence.

SOU really needs to upgrade its existing ILS to at least Cat 1 and arguably Cat 3, and the VOR/DME approach onto the other runway is frankly, a relic of a bygone non-precision approach era.

BOH needs also, to do the same although the weather record as regards fog at BOH is much better than SOU (no river running along the airport boundary, for a start!).

The fact that a significant number of airlines' aircraft using SOU are not even Cat 2 equipped currently, gives SOU a 'get out' but eventually, it'll catch them out.

However, to upgrade to Cat 2 or Cat 3 would cost ££££s as the runway would need new lighting, there would be a requirement for new approach lighting, and the taxiways would need full 'low visibility lighting' (which they don't at present have). So the cost in terms of a business case probably doesn't stack up.

BOH would also need to upgrade much of its airfield ground lighting infrastructure but given the better weather record, the business case is even less viable!

As a frequent business traveller, living with the magic 90 minutes drive of SOU, BOH (just) and LHR (also LTN and BRS) I choose reliability followed by cost as my criteria, hence I fly from LHR or LTN depending on the ticket prices, my destination and the flight availability although I do also use SOU in the summer months when I know that there's a 95% probability of getting to my meetings on time and getting back home again without being diverted.

My only complaint about SOU (and LHR) are the car parking costs!

:}

[liquid sunshine]

Ebeneezer,

I think you make your point well but BAA Southampton are up against it right now as it a bad time to be holding out the begging pot as most of the BAA's spare cash is poured into T5 and the kind of sums required to bring SOU up to scratch would be very difficult to find in the present climate. Having said that SOU will reach the point in the next 12-18 mths where they may well have to make serious investment in the airfield and not just the terminal or they could end up being victims of their own success where airlines wish to fly into SOU but cannot be accommodated either because of wx, a/c size, stand parking etc etc etc. Come on SOU !!!!!