Flying to your Uk home to be stopped

[Hughes500]

Guys and Gals

Received an enforcement notice yesterday from my local planning council ( Datmoor National Park) stating that flying in and out of my house was breaking the planning regs.
Dispite their agreement more than 10 years ago that the use of Curtlidge was permitted development I have had the case of Mr Al Fayed and Harrods ( He was stopped from using Curtlidge rights on Harrods, as the use was not ordinarily incidental to the land use)cited as the precedent. Namely that you would not ordinarily expect a helicopter to land at a country house.

The implications for every owner / operator are vast if one thinks about it, as we have almost all used the curtlidge rights of buildings that we have landed at. My solictor believes the 2 cases are so fundamentally different that I should be OK, if the judge goes the other way the prcendent is then set for every other council to stop us landing and taking off. Granted the 28 day rule still applies to fields, but many will go way past that.

Any suggestions and help would be much appreciated here and I am not holding a New Year Sale as many of my neighbours have suggested at Little Harrods on Dartmoor !

May I also take the time to wish you all a Happy Xmas a Prosperous New Year and a safe flying year.

[Vfrpilotpb]

H5, good morning,



From what you write it seems that you have been doing this for ten years,

Question, have you had any formal planning permission?

If yes, then what are the reasons for cancelation?

If No, then why dont you make a diary of landing dates and take off's,

plus have any of your neighbours ever complained, if they have not then fine but if they have, was it a ligit complaint or just greeness coming out.

Then with this information to you fingertips, approach your local planning officer( yes I know they are all Pratts) to discuss the merits of your case, at that point he or she will let you know why they are asking for you to curtail your landings, at that point you will then see the full picture(hopefully) and be able to persue it to your favour or back down like most ratepayers do, and let them win!

Thats what I would do anyway!

PeterR-B

[Helinut]

As you tell this story, it sounds to be of major importance to all UK onshore helicoptering activities.

If accepted and applied indiscriminately, this could stop helicopters landing at hotels, as well as private houses. It would therefore restrict not only private but also public transport flying too.

Because of the way that precedent has a wide impact on other similar activities, your situation is not just important to you but potentially also to anyone else who uses a helicopter to land regularly at any site without explicit planning permission (i.e. making use of the curtilage argument).

For this reason, I hope that representative organisations like the BHAB and the HCGB will also be concerned about your predicament. I would suggest that you or your lawyer would be well advised to seek comment from them, even if you are not a member. I believe that there is a BHAB "Heliport Committee" or something similar that could be interested.

I have a feeling that the Egyptian Grocer may cause other problems for the UK helicopter industry, before he has finished, but that is a rather different issue

[helicopter-redeye]

Worth getting advice from AOPA on this one.

Harrods was a special case as it was just a tinzy winzy bit built up round Knightsbridge (rule 5 etc).

Dartmoor National Park also is a National Park so will have stricter planning regs than non NP/ SSSI/ ANOB sites, so this may not be a countrywide issue, just one for selected special areas.

There was an article in Pilot (or Flyer) recently about the use of private fields and the rules thereto, so worth referring here.

Think France - no landings without per from La Marie. eeek!

What are the coord of the property? Is it built up or isolated?

[Heliport]

The BHAB might be able to help.
Worth a try.

[paco]

Dunno if this will help....

"There is no need to notify planning authorities unless the land is to be used as a helipad on more than 28 days in any year. Current planning regulations allow a helicopter to be used for personal, business and leisure uses "as many people use a private car" from the owner's dwelling house without limitation, making it exempt from planning control, provided the use is incidental, or ancillary to, the principal use of the land. Planning Policy Note 24 about Planning and Noise, paragraph 18, states that, in general, where helicopters are used from gardens or commercial premises and their use is incidental to the principal use of the land, planning permission is not generally required."

Phil

[chalmondleigh]

H500
I think that BHAB is a trade association for Commercial Helicopter operators.
The best people to get advice from as a private operator would be the Helicopter Club of Great Britain. They have access to a specialist planning consultant as well as a fund of knowledge within the club itself as this problem rears it's ugly head from time to time. Club members can usually get the advice FOC.
Contact their Secretary, Jeremy James, on 01869 810646 or try [email protected]. He relishes such fights and usually wins.
Such matters are of importance to us all as adverse decisions can then be used by other Planners.
HCGB experience shows that many planners do not understand the regulations.

[Thomas coupling]

The BHAB is indeed the perfect vehicle for such a conflict.

The following are members of BHAB:

Full member Class A (vii): HCGB

Associate Members Class C (i): Heliport and Helipad owners and operators.

Both would/should direct their challenges thru BHAB for maximum impact against the 'authorities', I would suggest.

Either contact BHAB DIRECT:

http://www.bhab.org/

or ask a member to request it as an agenda item for the next meeting.

[B Sousa]

Hughes 500
Not any help from me but Happy Christmas back to you. Wish you luck, but its the U.K. Now that the pound is doing good to the dollar, you should bring a few out to the western U.S. and build a nice place.
One gentleman I did business with has a long driveway at his ranch. Its paved and he uses 5000' of it to land his Lear Jet. He then taxis to the side door of his house.....
In your case, its sad we cant control what we can own anymore....sounds like down under someone is just jealous.

[jerry712731]

Dear hughes500

I have just completed (and won) a long battle with Rother District Council. A potential claim in the land tribunial for £420,000 (yes that right) frightened them off !

I have lots of referance matterial and some VERY useful QC opinion.

The 28 Day rule is relavent, the curtilage is absolute ref hansard for recent goverment statement confirming your rights.

if naighbours are keeping records to support complaints are they data protection act registrered, have they notified you, can you access their records ?


I am happy to help !

This NEEDS to be WON

please PM me

:O

[Tony Chambers]

mmmmm this gives me an idea lol. What if you had several homes with thier own helipads with nearby hangers, fuel and engineering, and you called it a residential heliport. There are similar residential areas in America for f/w pilots and something similar in Spain for supercar owners.
:ok:

[Jonp]

Can I just add my experience to this. I land my R44 at home occasionally, and this was done with the consent of my neighbours - i.e. doing it gently. Now I am only in no more than once a week, and if I have to go early in the morning, then I let them know.

I also spoke to the local council and as long as it is in the cutalage of the house, then the movements are unlimited. The only issue will arise if neighbours complain about noise, then its treated just like noisy music next door.

If I land in an agricultural field over the garden fence, then I am restricted to 28 days movements per annum. The local council said it is my responsibility to count them! This is because it is classed as 'change of use' from agricultural.

Hope that helps. It is definately worth the effort of talking to neighbours and the council before proceeding

Of couse if noise is an issue, you can always auto rotate in :-)

Jon P

[Hughes500]

Here's a bit of a laugh - I have to return some documents stating what action I am taking by the 28 th of Dec. Just discovered the Planning office is away until 4 Jan, I will probably be proscuted now as there will be no one there on the 28 th to prove whether the documents got there or not.

Solicitor just informed me that the planning authority agreed that flying from curtlidge was permitted development, document signed 12 years ago ! But the authority claimed that the use was only temporary, glad i didn't build a large house - I would be taking it down now !!!!!!!!!