Which GPS should I buy? [Archive]

J0N0

12th Nov 2004, 04:25

Bollix69
A couple of things to be wary of, make sure the GPS doesn't have a max speed limit, heard there were some out there that stopped at 100kts which is probably fine if all you do is fly a tiger moth or a C150 and use flap for descent :) The other thing is the voltage that the unit will allow, some with the ciggy plug will only have a couple of volt tollerance around 12v which is not much use as lots/perhaps most aircraft are using a 28v system.
You can save yourself some money by not getting a specific aviation hand held with the disadvantage being it won't have an aviation database in it and you will have to put them all in your self. I got a Garmin 12 XL volt range between as I recall 10-40v and I got it working through the window of a BAE146 so no speed limit problems either. I didn't mind entering my own data base but thats a personal thing. Also think about an external antenna, can be handy to put that up on the dash and have the unit on the seat or somewhere rather than having the unit on the dash in the sun all the time (LCD screen didn't love it) and having to pick it up every time I wanted to check it. Not all units have external antenna options so its worth being aware of it.
My Garmin 12 XL is a great robust user friendly unit, if your looking at them though watch out for the plain Garmin 12 though as it has no option for external antenna and very limited voltage (at least that was the case a few years ago, could well have changed)

bollix69

12th Nov 2004, 17:00

Thanks for your info guys.....

So does anyone know of someone wanting to sell their gps???

cheers

centurionII

14th Nov 2004, 23:11

www.ebay.com

geeup

17th Nov 2004, 01:45

The Garmin GPS III Pilot is the best. However i believe they have produce a new model that superseeds the Pilot version in a coloured screen which is near to useless!:ok:

Ultralights

19th Nov 2004, 08:56

for a long time i used a very basic GARMIN Etrex! it runs on 2 AA batteries! or 12 volt cigarette lighter plug. very basic, but surprisingly accurate. max speed was 999 Kmph!! i have only ever seen a max of 240 Kts. no map, just basic goto, nearest heading bearing info, but what more do you need when you have a map, VOR DME ADF etc et.

I have just bought a GARMIN GPSMAP 96 for $800, similar size and look to my old etrex, but with jepps database!! and fits in the palm of your hand, about the size of a mobile phone

defiant

22nd Nov 2004, 06:38

I would recommend the Garmin 96 or 96C, I have the 96C and it is a fantastic piece of equipment.

Check out. http://www.garmin.com/products/gpsmap96c/

Defiant.

Chief Wiggam

22nd Nov 2004, 08:49

Well it's what you can afford I guess. You can spend $3000+ on a colour moving map unit that uses 8 x AA cells each time you turn it on and includes its own instrument panel just in case.:rolleyes:

These units are great for completely f*#king you situational awareness. Was checking a pilot once who whipped his out for the flight. He was quite happy barrelling along fixated to the screen completely oblivious to what was going on outside. The scary part was when I said he couldn't use it anymore.:ooh: He became lost in a pretty short space of time, and this was a 1000+hr CPL. Clock-Map-Ground :confused:

I think the best handheld gps is the cheapest one that does the job. For me it's the MAGELLAN 310. $300 at any Tandy, 100 waypoints, dist, gs, eti (eta if you use your watch), miles off track, etc...... Takes 2 x AA cells (Duracells will last months if used sparingly).

Sure it doesn't have a airspace database but that's why I carry an ERC.;)

Ultralights

22nd Nov 2004, 09:28

after reading above, how could a good pilot let their skills diminish to such a point? like i said earlier, my original GPS was very basic, but it served its purpose well, it was cheap $169, 100 or so waypoints. On my usual flight in a piper or Ultralight, i used normal nav techniques, clock, map, ground etc and VOR, NDB etc where equipped. 99% of the time, i used my gps to cross check time to next waypoint, or kept it on the "nearest waypoint" screen. as you were flying along it would give bearing and dist to nearest waypoint, which were all possible alternates programmed in during planning, just in case the engine decided to take lunch break or another emergency occured.

a GPS should just be another tool, not a complete nav package!

Crosswind Limits

6th Dec 2004, 17:52

I'm looking to buy a fairly basic GPS as a backup aid but don't know where to start. I'm not fussed about colour, although a moving map would be nice. Budget about £300 but could increase that a little if it was worth it.

Any suggestions or recommendations?

Thanks!:ok:

Johnm

6th Dec 2004, 18:05

Garmin pilot 3 would fit the bill precisely

Big Hilly

6th Dec 2004, 18:28

I'll second that. Can heartily recommend the Pilot III. :ok:

BH

Monocock

6th Dec 2004, 20:26

GPS III Pilot.

There is no alternative.

bfato

6th Dec 2004, 22:01

Or the new 96

It's pretty much the same as the old III, only more so.

Newark_Anagram

7th Dec 2004, 09:01

IMHO forget the Garmin III Pilot!! Get yourself a pocket PC ( I use the Mio168 with built-in GPS ). You can load a digitised version of your preferred 1:500000 chart, use the moving map facility and it's just like flying with the paper chart! The PPC requires memory map navigator to run the CAA chart, and you also get the 1:250000 charts relevant to the half mil, and you also get all the airfield data charts. The PPC has a full 65536 colour display and the GPS receiver is a hundred times better than the Garmin.

Also, you can load TomTom navigator and use it as an in-car navigation system which is remarkably accurate with voice directions for your planned route.

Apart from all that it's a PDA as well and costs around £250.

Check out :
www.globalpositioningsystems.co.uk
www.memory-map.co.uk

message me if you need any more info.

Mark

IO540

7th Dec 2004, 09:12

This one has been done to death here too, recently.

It depends on how much one is going to use the GPS.

I am going to duck after saying this and get back to doing some real work, but the proper way to use a GPS is for primary navigation. In VMC one continually checks it against the outside view, but the track line on the GPS will be far more accurate and less ambiguous than anything else at one's disposal. In IMC one would use it as primary too, but would also track one or more navaids, if possible.

I have played with PDA solutions pretty extensively (the Mitac 168 yesterday - a great unit for running TomTom in a car) but most are just not suitable for use as one's sole GPS. I have a big panel mounted setup so have looked at PDA solutions as a supplement - especially as one can display the CAA charts on them.

For a start, I have come across just one unit whose display will auto-dim according to ambient light - the Ipaq 5x50, and that works only when on battery, not when powered from an external source. All other PDAs can be dimmed but by fiddling around with the stylus - no good in flight. Most are far too bright for night flight even with the brightness on min.

Their touch screens only need to be touched and the thing goes off in some unwanted mode.

At the budget stated, I would buy a used aviation unit, and get the best one can afford. Also one must consider mounting options - if renting the plane, a leg-strapped unit (not many about) might be preferred to a panel-top one.

Also avoid designs that go back some 10 years e.g. the Garmin 195. They have nasty firmware bugs.

Having said that, an Ipaq 5x50 running something like Memory Map or Oziexplorer, with the screen cover protecting the screen from touching, would be an adequate solution - IF I can find how to enable display auto-brightness when on ext power.

Crosswind Limits

7th Dec 2004, 16:51

Thanks for the input guys, all good stuff! :ok:

Does anyone have feedback on the new Garmin GPS96? It looks like a very handy and portable bit of kit.

yawningdog

7th Dec 2004, 19:27

Here' some info I wrote on an earlier thread regarding the 96C. In addition to this, I flew with it today and found it exerienced a software crash when I was programing in the route. It also slowed right down when I tried to "set OBS & hold" when in the air. I feel the software needs an update.

"I used to have the Pilot III and have just moved onto the 96C. Both units are pretty much the same size, screen doesn't seem much bigger, but the resolution on the 96C is much better.

As for the 96C, my sugestion is that you will get much more for your money staying with the Pilot III. The 96C comes with a Yoke Mount which is OK but very bulky. The P3 is beter as it has a neat little screw on the back that allows you to make a simple mount to attach it to your kneeboard.

The 96C doesn't come with a carry case so add £13, It doesn't have an external aerial, so add £70, and doesn't come with a Serial Port cable, so add £23. (It does come with a USB connection but my version of Flitestar only works via the Serial port.)

So, I bought it for £445, and spent £106 on extras, plus postage and the total investment was around £580!! I sold my old Pilot III for around £220. Now I realize who got the better deal.

The features on the 96C are nothing special at all. The Obstacle alert facility doesn't seem to work in the UK as Jeppesen hasn't included them in the database. The "Select Approach" function which allows navigation to the FAF & MAP on published instrument approaches souds useful, but is actually quite confusing. The waypoint management system requires too much button pressing and feels disorganized.

The good points about the 96C are that its COLOUR and that it only uses only 2 x AA batteries which last much much longer than the Pilot III. The 96C comes with a nice software program which allows you to download your flight history. The Pilot III has this facility via Flitestar, but the 96C is much better as it not only displays the Track, but also Height, Speed, Times and can be displayed as a profile (altitude X-section) so you can monitor the accuracy of your climbs & descents.

So, stay with the Pilot III if you can, but if you want to upgrade to the 96 series get the 96C over the greyscale 96 otherwise you won't notice the difference and feel ripped off!!"

Julian

8th Dec 2004, 08:28

There is always an alternative!!!

http://www.avmapnavigation.com/

Just got myself an AvMap EKP IIIC Pro, cost me £700 by bringing over from US but you get them Italy but cost is substantially higher at about £1400. Date cards are also cheaper in US (£100 v £240 if bought in EU), unit comes with full US Jeppsen Database and I bought the EU one as an extra.

Amazing piece of kit with 7" screen and fast redraw rate plus some nice little touches like HSI, VNAV and Airport Info.

Only bit I found frustrating is that the flight plan entry could have been designed better.

BigEndBob

8th Dec 2004, 19:13

Just buy one of those used by trekkers.
I used my 4 yr old magellen pioneer as back up flying around the Bahamas.
Was always spot on with the aircraft gps.
Cost £79.
And forces you to refer to a paper map rather than the electronic one.

Crosswind Limits

10th Dec 2004, 15:57

BigEndBob,

Interesting point about non-aviation GPSs. I'm open to suggestions as they are considerably cheaper!

As I said in my earlier post I will be using it to cross-check and confirm my watch-map-ground position. If non-aviation GPSs (like the Garmin GPS 12/XL or GPS72) allow entry of airport waypoints, towns, VORs etc. then I see little reason to buy a moving map pilot GPSIII.

Can someone who uses a non-aviation GPS for flying run through how it is still useful as a navigation aid. I presume speed and distance are in mph and miles respectively or is knots an option?

Thanks.

Evo

10th Dec 2004, 16:27

I use a non-aviation Garmin GPS III - the difference is that there's no HSI-like display, and there's no airspace overlay for the map or database of airfields etc. The rest is the same, and it's quite happy with knots and nm. Cost was a third of the price of a Pilot III, probably about £50 on ebay now.

I couple it up to Navbox with no problems, so you just click a few times to define the route and download it to the GPS. No need to fiddle around entering waypoints, although once Navbox has downloaded them once they're in the GPS should you need them.

Of course, I'd like a new colour GPS, but the III does everything I actually need...

yawningdog

10th Dec 2004, 22:07

I wouldn't be a cheapskate if I were you.

You're spending so much money on your flying anyway, why not spend a fraction of that on a 2nd hand aviation database Pilot III, and be safe.

Let's face it, GPS's are not just navigational aides, they're a serious enhancement to Air Safety. They reduce cockpit workload dramatically. I wish people would stop frowning on GPS's as the bad brother of good old "dead reckoning".

There are 3 main purchases that one will encounter in one's life, buying the house, the car, and the GPS. If you're serious about your flying, don't cut corners.

Crosswind Limits

11th Dec 2004, 07:44

Gee thanks yawningdog!:{

Other than renewing my class 1 and IR every year, my initial huge outlay was about 3 years ago when I went commercial. I now work as a humble part-time flying instructor at 2 airfields near London. Virtually all my flights are with students or trial lessons. It would be nice to have something to back up VFR nav and VOR/DME/ADF equipment on the aircraft. That is the only reason I want a GPS. If I can do the job for cheaper than my budget than that's fine by me.

Cheers!

S-Works

11th Dec 2004, 08:54

Gosh, how impressive a "humble" flying instructor buying and wanting to use a GPS.

Thanks for letting us know you were "commercial" it has made a huge difference to answering your question.

Ray Ban

11th Dec 2004, 09:45

Why the sarcasm bose-x? Try being constructive next time. All posts contain useful advice except yours!:hmm:

Legalapproach

11th Dec 2004, 10:51

If you are wanting a GPS simply as a backup then Garmin GPS Pilot III pilot is ideal. I use one for that purpose and bought it on e-bay for just over £200. It came in as new condition with various accessories and there nearly always appear to be ones on offer. I bought it to replace a Garmin 92 also bought on e-bay for just over £100. I was going to sell the 92 but give it to the short approaches to occupy them when they start feeling bored/sick.

skydriller

11th Dec 2004, 13:20

Crosswind limits,

When you eventually get your GPS, can I request that when you yourself are happy you know how to use it properly, that you get around to showing your students how to use it properly also? Where I learnt to fly GPS was not even mentioned. I missed out.

I now have a Garmin 196, a bit more than you wanted to spend Iknow, but it is one of the best things I have ever bought....period. Cant believe I went flying for so long without one now, it makes life so much easier and less stressfull.

Regards, SD..

Crosswind Limits

11th Dec 2004, 19:53

OK thanks very much everyone - I've a good idea now! :ok:

Bose-x, who rattled your cage? Are you normally so uptight? :mad:

yawningdog

11th Dec 2004, 20:45

Just looked quickly at EBAY's aviation section, here are some Pliot III's. Check the databases though.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4783&item=5543158667&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4783&item=5543068905&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=75327&item=5541743693&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4783&item=5541331287&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Crosswind Limits

12th Dec 2004, 06:53

Much appreciated yawningdog!:)

flajjer

12th Dec 2004, 09:50

I was flying with a garmin 12 for around six or seven years I think and it worked out just fine.
I had to pre program the airports and stuff, but since I was flying VFR, with a map and "compass" the GPS was only an extra aid.
Now I´m using the 196 and it's far the best peice I have ever had. What I have noticed is that I use the real map a lot less now and there are good and bad points with that, I'd say it's a very bad habit. If the GPS would fail I would have difficulites with finding myself on the map. :)

Go for the "One niner six" and be happy for the rest of your life! :)

Vladivar Smirnoff

12th Dec 2004, 13:42

Have read the threads concerning the "primary/secondary" roles of GPS. I agree GPS is the best thing since sliced bread for all your nav needs in conjunction with a current map of course. I use a pilot III with an ipaq 54XX & MM software, its the dogs dangly bits.

I would think all those old time pilots who flew the mail and used the burn rate of a cigar to tell them when to let down, would have considered ADF & VOR as mere fripperys for girlys to use and not seriously by fly by the ar$e aviators. Flying IS about technology, use it when its there.

SASless

16th Dec 2004, 14:22

Read this article this morning.....

The shutdown would only be in unique selected places....only during National Emergencies....and would be well publicized. Reminds me of the area around Mogadishu during the American presence there....GPS never worked around the Moga Airport as I recall.

WASHINGTON (AP) - President Bush has ordered plans for temporarily disabling the U.S. network of global positioning satellites during a national crisis to prevent terrorists from using the navigational technology, the White House said Wednesday.

Any shutdown of the network inside the United States would come under only the most remarkable circumstances, said a Bush administration official who spoke to a small group of reporters at the White House on condition of anonymity.

The GPS system is vital to commercial aviation and marine shipping.

The president also instructed the Defense Department to develop plans to disable, in certain areas, an enemy's access to the U.S. navigational satellites and to similar systems operated by others. The European Union is developing a $4.8 billion program, called Galileo.

The military increasingly uses GPS technology to move troops across large areas and direct bombs and missiles. Any government-ordered shutdown or jamming of the GPS satellites would be done in ways to limit disruptions to navigation and related systems outside the affected area, the White House said.

``This is not something you would do lightly,'' said James A. Lewis, director of technology policy for the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies. ``It's clearly a big deal. You have to give them credit for being so open about what they're going to do.''

President Clinton abandoned the practice in May 2000 of deliberately degrading the accuracy of civilian navigation signals, a technique known as ``selective availability.''

The White House said it will not reinstate that practice, but said the president could decide to disable parts of the network for national security purposes.

The directives to the Defense Department and the Homeland Security Department were part of a space policy that Bush signed this month. It designates the GPS network as a critical infrastructure for the U.S. government. Part of the new policy is classified; other parts were disclosed Wednesday.

The White House said the policies were aimed at improving the stability and performance of the U.S. navigation system, which Bush pledged will continue to be made available for free.

The U.S. network is comprised of more than two dozen satellites that act as beacons, sending location-specific radio signals that are recognized by devices popular with motorists, hikers, pilots and sailors.

Bush also said the government will make the network signals more resistant to deliberate or inadvertent jamming.

On the Net:

Office of Science & Technology Policy: www.ostp.gov

Aesir

16th Dec 2004, 15:56

One must remember to be thankful for the GPS system provided free of charge from the USA to the world.

This system has probably saved thousands of lives already not to mention the comfort it gives the everyday user.

Things like this are often conveniently overlooked by those people quick to critisize the US for almost anything that is wrong in the world.

rotorfloat

16th Dec 2004, 17:15

I remember hearing a few years ago, that the EU was contemplating establishing their own GNSS. One reason was so that they weren't at the mercy of the USA if their system were to be disabled or deactivated.

Any new news on this?

helicopter-redeye

16th Dec 2004, 17:27

The European Union is developing a $4.8 billion program, called Galileo.

:(

so we can be at the mercy of the EU ...

... again

Helinut

16th Dec 2004, 17:56

As I read the article, the Leaders of the Free World were proposing to selectively "disable" Galileo and GLONAS (the Russian one), as well as US GNSS

CyclicRick

17th Dec 2004, 10:16

The EU version will (they say) be much better, safer, more accurate BUT you will have to pay for it boys and girls!
An annual fee with a programmed release code which will be checked by the satellite itself, VOR's are going to be withdrawn NDB'S too so whats left? Dead reckoning nav or pay even more money for flying.
I think avaition is going to regulate itself into (expensive) chaos in the very near future...what next?:{

helmet fire

17th Dec 2004, 10:45

Couldnt agree more Aesir.

GPS is definately the bees knees. I dont think people really appreciate just how profoundly GPS has changed our aviating lives. Just think about how many hours an EMS machine saves per annum by being able to locate an unfamiliar hospital pad at night FIRST TIME every time. How about going to the exact place the ground party is awaiting rescue without having to search? How about the ability to ensure search areas are covered without any overlap? etc etc. Thats not even considering the Hospital IMC approaches! And how many EMS helos are there in the world? What about locating oil rigs in low viz first time every time. How about knowing exactly how far the fire base is for fuel so you can do that extra couple of buckets before departing the line? How about getting such an accurate groundspeed you can avoid that divert for fuel and track direct after all? And its FREE.

Uneffenbelivable really.

I am suprised they would consider blanking areas becuase the US (and allied) defence systems rely so heavily upon it. Surely they would only degrade non mil users by intentionally introducing innaccuracies. Thats why we have to check the NOTAMS prior to using GPS.

I have often wondered how many pilots would fare without GPS because I was brought up pre GPS and yet have definately experienced my share of problems without it, being fortunate enough to continue to fly and teach part time on low level time on target type nav, IFR and night and NVG nav on a non GPS aircraft. Scary.

Have we become addicted to GPS? Could we operate without it?

SASless

17th Dec 2004, 14:48

I think we make too much out of the plans to curtail GPS coverage...it takes a National Emergency to cause it....and it will be well advertised. Think back to 9-11 when all....all.....air traffic was stopped in the USA. I will gladly accept not having GPS within a fairly small area the government thinks vulnerable. Would that not be a great big red warning flag saying that might very well be an area one does not wish to be for some unknown but serious reason. Please to recall....the Terr's are claiming even worse attacks are coming....and that could mean chemical, biological, or nuclear attack this time. Me....I would rather be on a beach sipping rum concoctions than be in the middle of one of them.

Gomer Pylot

17th Dec 2004, 18:45

Aviation is one of the smaller users of GPS. Trucks use them extensively, and the hundreds of supertankers which thread their way through the thousands of offshore platforms in the GOM rely on GPS. The internet depends on it completely - the timing from GPS signals is essential for timing. There is no other source of nanosecond timing signals, and nanosecond precision is necessary for networks as well as for position calculation. The relativistic effects of lack of gravity and velocity of the GPS satellites has to be accounted for just to calculate your position to within 10 meters, because it's all done with time differences. I doubt it will be well-publicized, because that defeats the purpose. If I know the GPS system will be turned off next week, then I'll plan my attack for the week after. And with nukes, chemicals, or germs, close counts. You don't need GPS precision to deliver those. Anywhere in New York City or any other city will serve the purpose if you just want to create terror.

This whole thing is just a way to make us think something is being done. Actually turning off the GPS system will create more chaos than a terrorist attack. Wolf, Wolf!!!

SASless

17th Dec 2004, 21:13

Gomer dear boy....you sound a bit cynical here....have you no faith in your elected leaders? Reckon the bureaucracy might be cruising without a compass? Uh oh! Poor choice of words....what if they know sumpin we don't.....burka clad cruise missles ejecting infected camel droppings....or spraying aerosol style goat mucus infected with a virus of some kind....:(

Gomer Pylot

18th Dec 2004, 02:05

In that case there is no need for GPS. Just get the things close to a city, and let the wind and curiosity do the rest. Turn off the GPS system and medevac helicopters and ambulances may take longer to evacuate the casualties, though, thus making the attack more effective.

HeloEagle

18th Dec 2004, 02:44

They didn't turn off the GPS on 9/11, so it would take one hell of a National Emergency for them to do so, and if they did, it would probably just hamper relief efforts more than stop an attack, so again, they probably won't turn it off. And yes, I think it is the Bees Knees

offshoreigor

18th Dec 2004, 22:10

Hi All and Merry Christmas!

I remember in 1994 while I was in Somalia, a shipment of portable GPS units was looted by the local clans. The response from the US was to induce a signal error into the sattelites that covered the region. It took us 3 days to get the correction codes from the US Government rep in MOG. It was very inconvenient but I'll bet there were some really confused Somalies who couldn't figure out why they ended up in Baledogle instead of Baidoa!

I have no problem with the manipulation of signal, but it must be NOTAM'ed. Since that time in 94, I have always encouraged my co-pilots to navigate via traditional navaids and maps at least once a month. I find that the younger crowd, (and I am by no means old, mid-forties) is becoming more and more dependant on GPS, a wonderful tool, but not the only one.

If the US decides to shut it all down, then so be it. We still have maps and VOR's, NDB's etc. It's not the end of the world.

Cheers,

:ok: OffshoreIgor :ok:

Gomer Pylot

19th Dec 2004, 05:43

Yeah, but my VORs don't do much for me a couple of hundred miles offshore. And the lines on the water are really hard to see, especially at night. And flying IFR by dead reckoning is really difficult. And there is no other means of navigation out there. I used to fly a 206, back in the day, navigating by compass and watch, and keeping an eye on the water for wind correction, but I wasn't going 200 NM out that way. I probably could still do it if I had to, but the load would be cut way, way back because I would need lots more fuel reserve. It would cost the oil companies lots of $$$.

SASless

19th Dec 2004, 14:49

Offshore....did I steal an air conditioner for you by any chance while we were in Moga? I gave several to the CHC guys....Rocky and that bunch.

offshoreigor

27th Dec 2004, 20:35

SASless Me old son!

I remember that! Rocky (Old Pal) was down in Kiss with no aircon. I was in MOG with Clegg and the boys at the 20 man Camp. No worries there! Were you with us or Bristows?

Cheers,

:ok: OffshoreIgor :ok:

Deano777

21st Apr 2005, 13:25

I am looking into buying a GPS, I want it for 2 things, flying and driving, there must be a way of combining the 2? I was thinking along the lines of a PDA or Ipaq to do the job, I dont want to buy brand new so eBay will probably be my 1st port of call, can anyone tell me how I go about getting the software for a particular unit etc and what software, maybe give some tips as to the best unit to buy.
I am a complete nub when it comes to GPS' as I like the traditional means of navigating, but as Im going to use it for driving I may as well incorperate the 2

Thanks in advance

Dean

Whopity

21st Apr 2005, 14:11

The type of software normally used in cars will not be much use in an aeroplane as it is invariably "road" based with little other information.

Probably the best mapping software is Memory Map; it utilises UK 1:250000 charts 1:500000 aviation charts (at a price) and 1:50,000 charts if you want more detail.

Its usefull on the ground and in the air in that it shows you where you are, but not much else.

PDAs even when fully bright can appear quite dim in an aeroplane or car on a sunny day!

The first thing to ask yourself is What do you actually want it to Do? Then look for something that does what you want. The PDA is a good solution if you don't really know, and want flexibility to experiment. They are not very robust and need a power supply to keep them going; the connector is usually the weak point of the system! Garmin units can be much more robust, tailored to various needs such as aviation, but the mapping may not have the same detail.

The mapping software will probably cost more than the GPS Unit!

Mike Cross

21st Apr 2005, 14:48

There's a huge variety of stuff.

For in-car use you really need something that will give you turn by turn directions. This is not as simple as it seems. You're heading north up the A3 and want to go west on the Hogs Back. Although the roads cross each other you can't get from one to the other in that direction, you have to take a link road half a mile before the junction. If you're heading east on the Hogs Back you can join the A3 northbound at the junction but not southbound. These are the things that a proper car navigation package will deal with. Memory Map will not, all it does is show your position on an OS map.

Everyone has their own favourite, you need to find out what yours is, the trouble is it's not easy to test drive them.

jabberwok

21st Apr 2005, 14:52

My normal GPS is a Garmin GPSIII Pilot but I have also been experimenting with software on a PDA. I have an HP4150 and have loaded this with both the Tom Tom road software and PocketFMS. Both work extremely well using the Tom Tom bluetooth GPS receiver.

It was not all plain sailing though. It took some time to get Pocket FMS working properly - this involved a Registry tweak to get it to lock onto the GPS receiver.

Whopity is right on a couple of points. The PDA screen can be pretty awful in direct sunlight. Avoid this and the display is good - twice the size of the Garmin display and in colour too! For some screenshots see here (http://www.homepages.mcb.net/bones/04fs/tutorial/GPS.htm). Yep, the article is aimed at users of FS2004 but don't be fooled as I have used the PDA in our Citation flights too.

You will also have to seriously think about cost. If you are trying to pick up a PDA cheaply you will still have to budget some serious money for the road software, GPS receiver, a memory card (ideally 512Mb) and the aviation software.

M14P

21st Apr 2005, 14:55

Garmin 296 with automotive pack does all the things that you require with a lovely display, excellent turn-by-turn directions and a really good rechargeable battery.

As far as eBay is concerned be VERY careful since GPS seems to be one of the 'bait' products for defrauding the unwary out of large chunks of cash.

Adams (either online or just wandering in at Biggin Hill) seemed to be the best in terms of price, helpfulness and out and out product knowledge...

m

TheOddOne

21st Apr 2005, 15:13

I've just bought the Garmin GPSMAP 96 monochrome version after 23 years of using map, compass & stopwatch. I used it for the first time on Monday for a 3-leg 50nm trip having already done the flight plan on the map and kneeboard. I'm still feeling my way with it. I really don't see me ever being able to just put a route into it, then just follow the GPS, so it will, for me, only ever be a backup and an indication of how close I am to controlled airspace etc. I know of people who seem to just jump in, no map, fire up the GPS and find their way in all weathers, but I can't see myself doing that!

The 96 fits on the yoke on a PA28 nicely and is easily readable in daylight without the backlight on. There seem to be plenty of satellites penetrate to the unit without an external aerial. The bottons are easy to use even with gloves on.

I've tried it in the car, too, and all I can say is that I've been able to calibrate the speedometer more accurately, pretty useless with the basic aviation map for road use.

I'll persevere with it during the summer, but at over £300 for a base model I could have done another 4 hours flying with the money. Maybe one day I'll be thankful that I've made the investment.

I tried reading the handbook but I still don't feel confident that I know how to use it properly. I tried out the 'go to' function a few times as that's probably what I feel I'd get benefit from most in an emergency, but I found I had to search from basics for locations, a bit time-consuming and fiddly if you had a problem. I also found I was 'head-in' for a lot longer than I like, not good when you're traversing between the LHR, LTN & STN zones! I knew where I was, but not what I might have collided with!

I think I'd like to do a few flights as a pax to get to play with it properly in the air to get the hang of it - perhaps it's just my aged brain that's too set in its ways to take to it quickly.

Cheers,

The Odd One

Captainkarl

21st Apr 2005, 16:37

Ha ha! Now I have a use for my disused IPAQ 1910! For flight sim! and maybe a GPS!! Jabberwok could you explain what you did to get Pocket FMS

"It was not all plain sailing though. It took some time to get Pocket FMS working properly - this involved a Registry tweak to get it to lock onto the GPS receiver."

It seems confusing but if I can get it to work it would be like a FREE GPS unit to me!lol

Thanks

jabberwok

22nd Apr 2005, 02:41

Most of the setup for the PDA is described here (http://www.homepages.mcb.net/bones/04fs/tutorial/GPS.htm) with links included to the software needed - GPSOut for FS and PocketFMS.

http://www.homepages.mcb.net/bones/04fs/tutorial/GPS2.jpg

I have included the settings I used but they may not be universal. I checked some aviation forums and the PFMS forum first and found that users reported various combinations that would work. Trial and error got me the one that fitted my own kit.

The O/S of the PDA is important as I think PocketFMS is only for Win2003 at the moment - I think a Palm version is being worked on.

Deano777

22nd Apr 2005, 22:06

Guys thanks for the replies
I havent really got a budget in mind, Im not "too" concerned with the PDA screen being a little dark in sunlight as I will always use the ol' plog & stopwatch, I guess I dont really know why I want one, I just feel the need to get one :\ I just got a promotion at work so I feel like treating myself (shh dont tell the wife) and thought I may as well combine the 2.
Thanks for the replies anyway, it's given me something to work with, any other comments / suggestions feel free to fire away

Rgds

Dean

S-Works

23rd Apr 2005, 07:40

Garmin 296 and auto pack as stated above is suberb. Clear and easy to use and readable in any light. Great battery life, and even audible turn by turn directions. It is better than the built in GPS in my car.

Fuji Abound

23rd Apr 2005, 08:26

IMHO for road use there is no substitute for TomTom Navigator on a PDA. The voice commands are excellent as is the map particularly in 3D mode. Third party software to enable the inclusion of speed radar cameras for example is also very useful.

For the plane the decision is much more difficult. There are a few packages around like FMS. The problem is they provide little more than a moving map as useful as that can be. The downside is that they are quite difficult to actually use in the air if your detail is changing or perhaps in IMC when you don’t want to be fiddling with the interface. I personally reckon that Anywhere in terms of its concept is by far and away the best product because it is really simple to change destinations or weigh points en route, display extended centerlines so useful for accurate positioning in marginal weather and a host of other easy to use features. The downside is they have not up dated the eastern database for sometime (it is an American product) which is a great shame because otherwise it would be perfect. In fact this is not the end of the world and I still find it is the easiest of the PDA aviation products to use.

I have found the TomTom bluetooth receiver excellent for its rapid acquisition time and ability to pick up satellites even when the receiver is shielded. The absence of cables is also a real bonus.

In my view other than for occasional use any pda really needs to have some means of connecting to mains battery. The battery life is not great and if you start to “rely” on the system you will find when you get to your destination you have inadvertently left either the receiver or PDA switched on so that by the time you are ready to return home the batteries are flat!

grow45

23rd Apr 2005, 13:12

Does anybody have any experience with the new Garmin Iqe 3600a (the one with the dedicated aviation cradle) which seems the ideal solution for somebody who does not have either a GPS or a PDA and is in the market for both.

g45

Footless Halls

24th Apr 2005, 21:31

I've always been a "map 'n' stopwatch" kind of navigator, but after a couple of nasty experiences decided I must carry a gps as a backup.

having been an 'early adopter' of pda's I looked very carefully at the Tom Tom/Pocket FMS concept.

Thing is, the times in the cockpit when you REALLY need a gps is when the workload is high and your attention on the gps itself is low.

I decided against the pda route in the end as I felt (feel) that pda's are just not robust enough.

In the end I decided on a Garmin 196. OK, so it's not colour, but it's very robust and well-designed. it takes a bit of getting used to, but a couple of trips as P2/nav will help you get experience. And you are ALWAYS going to use it as backup to your PLOG so you can build up experience with it as you fly.

I've used it on the road & I find it fine for that too, though I'm happy to compromise my road nav rather than aviation nav as I'm less bothered by the road stuff.

JetMouse

29th Apr 2005, 11:16

I'm currently looking at a GPS as a back up to the PLOG. One question I have is about the maps built into the GPS. It seems people like Garmin expect you to pay about £30-£40 a month to download a new map.

For those of you who have a GPS do you actually do this? Is it that necessary? Your thoughts please...

Thanks
JM

Mike Cross

29th Apr 2005, 11:54

I have a Garmin 196 and find it excellent apart from one annoying fault. It seems the natural frequency of vibration of the mighty C85 on the Luscombe concides with that of the batteries and they vibrate. A momentary loss of connection is the result which makes the thing power down. Others have had the same problem. The remedy I use is some strips of foam draught excluder stuck on the inside of the battery cover to help stop them vibrating.

The onboard database has a lot of information in it, some of it, like frequencies and airspace, is subject to change, other parts like the location of airfields and towns is not.

Needless to say I don't use it to the exclusion of the chart so I rely on keeping the chart up to date and watching NOTAM. It's backed up by NavBox Pro, for which I do subscribe to the update service so my frequency lists and airspace are up to date when I am planning.

The 196 comes with one free update and I haven't felt the need to update since. I have however updated the system software a couple of times from the Garmin website. Watch out though because the update process is likely to wipe out all of your personal waypoints and stored routes.

CAA Chart Updates available here. (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=64&pagetype=65&applicationid=8&mode=500map)

Mike

DRJAD

29th Apr 2005, 12:16

I have a GPS IIIP at present, and have had the unit for about two years.

In that time, I've updated the software once, and the database 4 times.

Always cross check with CAA VFR and Aerad IFR charts, and NOTAMS, after setting a route to fly. Seems to work.

Three Blades

29th Apr 2005, 12:38

If you are looking for simply a back up to your PLOG rather than a more complex system then even the simplest GPS will work well.
A Garmin Geko or eTrex can easily be loaded with waypoint and route dtat from a PC and can be used to keep you on track. Whilst it will not show you airspace and lots of pretty pictures, it only costs £100.
Now if you want to have GPS as an (unofficial) primary navigation aid then that is totally another question and another price.

GroundBound

29th Apr 2005, 13:51

The Garmins (and I suspect other manufacturers) are supplied with a Jeppeson database of aeronautical information, which is more or less current at the time of production (with 1 free update on purchase). This provides airports, runways, frequencies, navigation aids, airspace volumes etc. for a given area (e.g. Atlantic area = Europe and Africa).

However, the aeronautical data is subject to change every month according to the AIRAC cycle, so after one month some of the aeonautical data in your GPS is out of date, and you are probably missing some new data.

You can buy monthly updates from Jeppeson, through the Garmin site for around $40 a month, or a 13 month susbscription for +/- $300.

Whether you need to do this or not is a matter of choice - how much money do you have, what do you want the GPS aeronautical data for, and what has changed in your most-likely flying areas that you need to be updated in your GPS? Getting updates because of changes to ILS frequencies in Angola is maybe not the best of reasons. However, if the Birmingham TMA and CTRs have changed significiantly that might justify an update.

The "VFR GPS" aeronautical data, especially if not updated, should not be your first port of call for aeronautical information such as nav. aids, frequencies and controlled airspace. You can cross check your PLOG and the GPS to see if the aeronautical data corresponds.

If your current database properly reflects the area you are planning to fly in, then there should be no problem.

I took out a 13 month subscription but then decided it was too expensive. Now I update about 2 or 3 times a year (= 1 hour of flying).

(edited to add that nav. aid locations don't usually change much from month to month :) - however, airport frequencies can be more variable).

GB

IO540

29th Apr 2005, 16:45

This is one of the daft conflicts which presumably we have to live with.

From our training, we are supposed to use PRINTED charts for flight planning.

(Legally this isn't the case; the requirements tend to be phrased as "suitable" rather than "printed".)

Not because they are up to date (they hardly can be, being published once a year, or less often for many areas) but because they are "official". Why are they official? Perhaps it's tradition, but also there are not a few fingers in the map copyright gravy train!

On the other hand, one can buy software charts like e.g. Jeppesen FliteStar/FliteMap (some £500 for all of Europe, plus as much again every year for the 2-weekly update service - a comparable cost to buying the equivalent printed charts) and these will be a lot more up to date than anything that's printed.

Same goes for the databases in physical GPS units. Because there are no GPS approaches around here, there is no legal requirement to update the database. But if someone does, say every 6 months, they SHOULD have a more up to date database than anything one can buy.

The trouble is that anything other than printed charts (and SIA ones in France) is not going to count for much if one busts some airspace.

The other thing is that with a "VFR" GPS (basically any handheld unit) the vendor has no incentive to fix errors because they can always wash their hands of a problem, on the grounds that it is for supplementary nav only.

Even more strangely, the GPS Jepp database has things missing, which aren't missing from the GPS Jepp printed data (or the electronic data in FliteStar). E.g. airways are shown as just a line in the GPS databases whereas they are properly shown in the latter data. THAT is the main argument for having either the printed charts or the FliteStar electronic ones. (One can also print chart sections from the latter and this is how a lot of people completely avoid purchasing printed charts).

Onan the Clumsy

29th Apr 2005, 17:29

I updated my 295 once - about three years ago. I got the disk of ebay - a real one, not a knock off which made it a little cheaper.

It's a great unit but I don't use it for the info (that's a PITA to get to anyway) I just use it for speed, heading etc and the maps to see if I'm busting Bravo airspace. If they ever change, then I'll update the database.

It's a backup really. If I was in IFR, I'd have it updated regularly. (ok, and it'd be a 430 anyway)

Johnm

29th Apr 2005, 19:01

My wee pilot III has always had its software up to date and a dtatbase update spring and autumn. Seems to work OK, but I don't rely on frequencies etc. just the geography.

air18150

9th May 2005, 06:57

The choice seems to be between a skymap 2 and a garmin 196. The unit will be panel mounted with power and antenea. I have used the skymap on a few occasions and found it very good but hard to see in direct sunlight - it is a little bulky for the space available but would squeeze in. The 196 is smaller I know but I wonder how the `greyscale` display stands up in varying light conditions. Are there any other considerations I need to make ?
Thanks..

bar shaker

9th May 2005, 08:23

The 196 greyscale works very well and the unit is backlight too, so is readable in all but the strongest reflective sunlight.

Choppersquad

29th May 2005, 19:08

guys
about to purchase a gps for a jetranger
private flying only.

a couple of suggestions are a skyforce 111 or a garmin 296
if agreed which one is the best and why.

thanks in advance
choppersquad.

Aesir

29th May 2005, 19:43

Do you have to buy an aviation GPS?

I use a Garmin 182c in our JetRanger installed as loose equipment.

It´s really excellent with a very detailed map and very good to use for seismic work, which we use it a lot for.

It has the "Road in the sky" feature which is excellent when you have to fly search patterns for measurement work and also good to get between A to B.

We hook it up to our Laptop to download & upload tracks and waypoints or to use while flying with a laptop PC.

I absolutely love it and it only costs about $1000.-

muffin

29th May 2005, 20:03

I agree.

I use from choice a little handheld Garmin GPS46 which is actually intended for the marine market. It is extremely simple and with the map set for track up, just keep the line pointing upwards and you get there every time. I have it velcro strapped to my left knee where I can actually see the thing properly and it works a treat. I prefer it to the Skymap which is mounted on the instrument console just too far away to get at the controls and read easily. By the way, it cost around $150 when it was a currrent model.

helicopter-redeye

29th May 2005, 20:19

Garmin 250XL if you need the extra Comm facility as well.

NB after 200hrs flying in the UK you don't need a GPS, you know everywhere ......

:\

aeromys

29th May 2005, 20:35

I have the earlier Garmin 295, and the 296 is on my wishlist too, as I prefer one that I can take home and download data into my PC / Laptop etc. It also gets pressed into use in the car and even got lugged along on a hike.

Being able to run on it's own inbuilt battery is a boon for swapping between aircraft and other uses.

overpitched

29th May 2005, 21:27

I use the Map96 for commercial operations and have found it excellent. Moving map, North up or track up, very handy. Airspace and alarms airport info, frequencies, runways, refuellers etc. It has an extremely comprehensive database of suburbs and small towns. Very handy in a helicopter because you never know where you might be off to next. The info on pages is configureable as is the page order and number of pages available.

And it can be set in automotive, marine or aviation mode. If you by it make sure you have a good read of the manual as there is so much it can do that is very useful and practical. The cost was about $750 Aus from memory