Air Caledonia

[SCOT747]

Does anybody know how this new outfit is doing at PIK? I know they have only been operating for a week but they have had quite a few canx flight already and some delays to. Flight to LDY are meant to start later this week as well. How will they manage then?

[XSBaggage]

Not sure about future bookings but canx were due to low pax loads (zero) on some flights.

They are enthusiastic though, and if they provide a good service then word will spread through islands and they have a chance of making it.

Their website is interesting re future plans at PIK, have a look at it.
XSB

[Runway 31]

From what I have heard they are having an impact with BA dropping their prices to try and match them

[brabazon]

Didn't know that BA flew from PIK!:p

[allanmack]

I see tomorrow's first flight to City of Derry has been cancelled. I hope this is just a temporary blip due to the season and an apparent lack of marketing. It would be nice to see a small airline like Air Caledonian succeed as the flights to the outer isles etc are presently far too expensive with BA.

[GW76]

Has anyone not thought ,why fares on these routes need to be so expensive ?
Fair enough BA have a monopoly on certain routes, but the costs are required to maintain a dedicated fleet of small turboprops, provide maintenance at remote airfields and cover the cost of operating flights with perhaps only 1 or 2 passengers on board- without cancelling willy nilly when it suits.
These short-lived types obviously don't understand the overheads involved in providing service commitment routes. These are not suitable for the typical low cost model as im sure Air Caledonia will find out to their cost in at most 6 months time.

[Runway 31]

It also costs as much with BA to fly to the islands as it does to fly the atlantic.

[Phil Dubai]

Methinks BA are about to carve up a Caledonia Xmas turkey!

[Eff Oh]

Ah, a new start up wouldn't be complete without the "it'll never last 6 months" brigade. :yuk: Give them a chance. Competition is VERY healthy, particularly on these routes. And by the way, when Willie Logan started Loganair would you all have said the same thing? Probably! I am sure Air Caledonian has a healthy bank balance and that all these problems were forseen and have been bugeted for.
Go'an yersel' Air Caledonian. Good luck to you. I hope it all works ouit well! :) :ok:

[GW76]

I too wish them luck, but I am a realist and am worried what will happen when I take my rose coloured spectacles off.

[CosmosSchwartz]

Runway 31 - There are also more than times ten the number of fare paying passengers on a trans-atlantic flight as on Loganair Saab to the Islands.

Flight economics do not work like taxi fares. Ryanair have a lot to answer for!

[Runway 31]

Quote - Flight economics do not work like taxi fares. Ryanair have a lot to answer for!

That may well be the case and there are less passengers on each flight however while I do not know the costs involved, the economics of the aircraft are also very different covering shorter distances, using less fuel, less crew, less costly airports etc.

It is about time that someone gave BA some competition. Whether the economics allow the costs to be kept to the price charged by Air Caledonian and still allow them to make a profit only time will tell but at least they are having a go and giving passengers a choice. They are also opening up low cost routes to people who up until now had their choice limited and who now have easier access to these. Passengers coming from abroad by Ryanair will also find these destinations easier to access. I am a realist to and wish them every success.

[chiglet]

Sorry, but I am confoosed
Not sure about future bookings but canx were due to low pax loads (zero) on some flights.

From what I have heard they are having an impact with BA dropping their prices to try and match them

Justhow can an Airline cancelling filghts cause another to cut prices? Or am I missing something?:confused:
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[allanmack]

Good to see that the second scheduled flight to Derry went off OK despite the first being cancelled. Word on the street is that load factors are picking up after a few early cancellations. The fact that there has been very little in the way of marketing the routes and that PR has been minimal has meant that very few people know that Air Caledonian exist.

BA appear to have been dropping their fares, obviously to ensure that this new regional fails to get off the ground before it is established. The more competition on the Western Isles routes the better - the islanders have been ripped off with high air fares for years. Hopefully with both BA and Air Caledonian on the scene it will ensure that the beautiful Western Isles are opened up to more and more foreign tourists,:cool:

[Mark McG]

BA ticketes purchased in the Islands are cheaper than those purchased on the mainland thanks to the way the PSO contracts work.

Highland Airways gave BEB & SYY a bash from GLA at around this time last winter using a Jetstream 31.

Winter is definitely not the season to be starting routes to the Islands.

[Runway 31]

Just had a look for comparisons sake at the BA website to see if their prices had dropped.

A return tomorrow 15/12 GOW-SYY costs £302:30 all in.

A return SYY-GOW out 15/01/05 return next day 16/01 costs £211:80.

If that is a price drop to match the competition what was it beforehand.

I am sure that you would agree that this is excesive compared to the £129 all in offered on every occasion by Air Caledonian.

[CosmosSchwartz]

the economics of the aircraft are also very different covering shorter distances, using less fuel, less crew, less costly airports etc

The point being, are those costs up to ten times less than the equivalent trans-atlantic? Of course not. Fares and routes quite simply cannot be compared like that.

Competition and choice is good, but at the end of the day you get what you pay for. £130 for a flight to Stornoway at 9000ft, unpressurised, in the winter. And if the Bandeirante goes tech, what is the options? A long wait at Prestwick for a repair or a trip back up to Glasgow.

I think I'd rather pay the extra £80 to travel in relative comfort knowing that Loganair have the resources to get me there if this start going wrong.

I am sure that you would agree that this is excesive
Well, no. I'm not slating Air Caledonia, good luck to them, but the H&I operation is pretty unique and to expect BA to offer the service it does through Loganair whilst charging bucket shop prices is pretty unrealistic I think.

[Jockflyer]

Here's a word from the inside.

I fly the route for Air Caledonia, and I can tell you that I speak to each and every one of the passengers after the flight to ask them what they think of it. I have had very few negative comments, and lots of positives.

+ Cheap fixed price fares
+ Free railtravel anywhere in Scotland
+ Railway at the terminal
+ Lots of legroom
+ Friendly staff (they seem to like it when the pilot speaks to them personally)
+ Easy access to europe via Ryanair
+ Easier, quicker boarding/disembarking (due to less people)
+ Better timings

- A bit noisy
- Non pressurised

If a family of 3 are coming down, then the savings for them
with the cheap ticket and free rail travel are going to amount to a few hundred pounds. Sounding quite attractive now isn't it?

I hope it all works (obviously), but rather than taking passengers off Loganair, I'd rather hope that it will encourage people to use the service who otherwise wouldn't, which will bring more money to everyone, which can only be a good thing.

I think people should try and get behind a new service and encourage it, rather than being negative. Give it a chance!

Cheers

[Eff Oh]

Nice post Jock Flyer. Good luck to you mate! I heard your Bandit is only a stop gap? So a pressurised a/c is likely?

[ALLMCC]

Has anyone any ideas on when/if the BHD route will begin? - this was always well supported when Gill did it in the mid 90s.

Good post Jock Flyer - hope all goes well for AC!

[Jockflyer]

Well, I don't know what the record is for the shortest life span of an airline, but this must be a good contender.

Our first flight was on 6 December, and the last has already been done. Bandit goes back tomorrow. In truth, ACS has been doing most of our flights this week in the 404/402.

I'm sure some people will feel smug and say "I told you so", and they were right, but I hope they remember that it means there are people about to find they have no job to return to in January. Happy F*****g New Year!!!

I should be alright, but I know others that won't be.


I hope the people who have already booked with us get their money back.

Cheers

JF

[Mark McG]

JF - sorry to hear how things have turned out.

Do you think things would have been different if the routes had been started in the summer months when the weather conditions at SYY and up the whole west coast would have been more favourable, allowing a passenger base to develop.

[Meeb]

Of course it's sad when a new operator goes to the wall.
If you are wondering why it didn't work, well piss poor management by people who didn't have a clue what they were doing

Sorry to say but knowing where this lot came from I find that statement all too familiar. However, did they have their own AOC or was it a case of using Keenairs'?

Prestwick does have potential, but it needs an operator with a good strong background in airline ops, and experience of operating in Scotland... :rolleyes:

Mark McG, on first reading your post it might seem churlish... you do have a point... ;)

[Mark McG]

Hi Meeb,

didn't mean to come across like that.

A colleague of mine used Air Caledonian to get to SYY last week, as they were substantially cheaper than BA from GLA and BMI from EDI.

[james170969]

Jockflyer, I've just looked at the teletext arrivals for today and if what you said about Air Caledonian having flown it's last flight was true then surely the flights would have been cancelled! Not accirding to teletext they're not. I also called Air Caledonian and they told me that the airline has definately NOT flown it's last flight!

[cuthere]

CSF101 from Prestwick to Derry (STA 0740 at LDY) did operate this morning, though it was almost two hours late, arriving Derry at about 0930. If they have flown their last flight, then who is operating these movements today?

[Jockflyer]

The Bandit is going today. The last few flights will be flown by ACS.

Some of you will note that I have deleted some of my earlier statements. Not because they aren't true, just that it was perhaps foolish of me to post them.

Trust me, the fat lady is about to sing. For the moment at least, its over.

Cheers

JF

[PIKryanair]

well i guess the real losers are the public competition means lower fares

[Runway 31]

Some more information which I got from another forum.

The EMB110 has been returned to Norwich and the services will continue using Air Charter Scotland Cessnas.

There was, from what I can gather, a sudden departure of the Ops Manager (ex BAW) this week back to England - that appears to have been followed by the many doom and gloom stories which now appear to be circulating. Jockflyer care to comment?.

They're not flying today as they normally only fly weekdays on their routes. They were flying yesterday and had extra flights too with pax in from Derry at 22.30.

I hear there is a new Ops Manager raring to go who is Scottish and understands the local aviation scene.

Maybe it is too early to write them of just yet.

[Jockflyer]

Mmmm,

R31, I can confirm the departure of the ops manager, and the return to Norwich of the EMB110.

Interested to know where you got the info.

As for another ops manager waiting in the wings, thats news to me.

I've been with the "company" for a year now, so I'd like to think I know what going on. THere was a meeting on Friday , which I didn't attend, which was discussing what the future holds. I'll find out on Monday what was said, but the feeling before it was that it was all but over.

ACS may well continue to do the remaining flights, but I believe most of them have been cancelled.

Maybe I'm being kept in the dark here, and I've got it all wrong, but somehow I doubt it.

The company only has one a/c on its AoC, a PA31, which is not airworthy at the moment. I understand therefore, that the AoC is suspended. We were operating the EMB110 under another company's AoC, and we were basically ticketing agents. Whether that situation can continue with ACS running the flights is doubtful. I am led to believe that if our AOC is suspended, then we cannot act as a ticketing agent.

I post more info once I have it.

Happy New Year

JF:\

[ecj]

Has the EMB 110 going back simply due to poor loads, or was this planned from the outset?

[Jockflyer]

Was meant to be a 6 month lease.

[Oshkosh George]

That's not right about ticketing.

Air Scotland,who do NOT have an AOC,are ticketing agents for Greece Airways,who do have an AOC. So your outfit could legally continue,but think it has to be approved by the CAA.

[eastern wiseguy]

when/if the BHD route will begin? - this was always well supported when Gill did it in the mid 90s.

posted 16th December 2004

.....Prestwick was tried before from BHD by Gill a few years ago but fares were prohibitive



posted 15th September 2003 19:42


ALLMCC make up your mind

sorry to hear though that it appears to have failed ...always sad when a company spears in

[Runway 31]

Today's schedules appear to be flying.

[Phil Dubai]

R31. What a/c are they using. JockFlyer did intimate that they would continue briefly using Cessnas. I noticed a J31 at PIK this morning, is it doing the flights. The fact that they have returned the Bandit speaks volumes IMO!

[FlySun]

Tommorows is flying aswell as I am flying with them to Stornoway tommorow. My Business partner is flying on from Gla at the more exoensive fare as the flight was full.

Doesnt sound like this airline is as dead as weve been led to believe

[Phil Dubai]

If its a Cessna402 and you and the Captains cat are on it. It would be full, wouldn't it?

[Bigscotdaddy]

As someone mentioned before, Highland Airways operated Gla - SYY for a short while with a Jetstream 31. I don't think the loads made irt worthwhile, but that was much to do with the flight timing and time of year.

Obviously Caledonian would have had a much better chance had they started up in the Spring and got established when the tourist loads were highest, but as can be seen with BMI Regional discontinuing for the winter, the loads will not be there this time of year.

There are a lot of factors involved in having any success on the Island routes. Loganair have been operating there a long time and know their market. It's also questionable if there would be enough traffic to justify more operators.

It can be a catch 22 situation when an established operator might pull out of a route because of poor returns due to low - cost compitition, only to leave the locals with an inferior service which may not best serve their needs.

RWY 31 _ I think you'll find that the Airport charges in the North are pretty high, as the costs of fuel etc. Also, how about up to £1000 to de-ice an aircraft that may only have a dozen or less pax?

[ecj]

Highland did operate a very early GLA-BEB service - a combi flight with the mail, and then onto SYY.

Highland did a INV-GLA when Loganair ceased this early morning service, but only for a few months.

[Voldermort]

Well they are still flying and to answer BOGOF`s question yes it was a Highland J31,which operated both SYY-PIK flights however both PIK-SYY were cnx with only the evening PIK-LDY-PIK operating but this was doubled up to a pair of Cessna`s.
Only the morning LDY rotation was cancelled today with all other flights being operated by the Cessna`s and again 2 to LDY in the evening.So for the moment it looks like there is life after the Bandit:ok:

[air2000dub]

When Highland did the GLA-BEB-SYY combined pax mail flight,
they were having so many tech problems with the ATR that it was returned south and they subcharted the Aerocondor Shorts.
Royal Mail were not happy with all the delays.

With regard to the J31 service to SYY/BEB there was virtualy no advertising ( personally didnt see any) so not a great take up.
Think if they had a sales rep out promoting the route things might have been different.

[billyg]

Jockflyer, It would appear that the airline will "temporarily" suspend ops on Friday! They intend to return with a larger fleet in the near future!

[mysecretsmile]

The reason that BHD didn't start of as a route to PIK was that
BHD management weren't happy with the Bandeirante aircraft - in that it wasn't going to provide a level of service and a product offering that they felt passengers deserved. Air Caledonia were very keen to set up a service from BHD.

I am also led to believe that Flykeen who operate out of BHD have been asked to review their aircraft on the route. I believe they had intended to introduce ATR's once the route had proved its self ?

[Jockflyer]

I got a phone call yesterday morning telling me that the company were stopping all operations from Friday, and that my and all other pilots services would not be required for the foreseeable future.

The AOC has been suspended as they now only have a PA31 which does not currently have an engineering contract.

Highland Airways did indeed use the Jetstream for a couple of the Stornoway flights, and ACS will do what needs done up until tomorrow.

No further bookings are being taken obviously.

ClasAir, who owned Air Caledonian hope to start doing charters again in the PA31, once the AOC is resurected, and I have been asked if I would be willing to fly it.

There is a new ops manager in place and I spoke to him this morning. He tells me that they hope to start schedules again in the spring, with a bigger, newer aircraft.

I wish them well.

Now since I find myself without a job, would someone like a 1500hr (1000P1) pilot???

Cheers

JF

[ecj]

Just how much has this short lived venture cost the backers???

:{

[brabazon]

Is that it? Did they stop flying on Friday and if so when do they intend to start again?

[kpiko3]

From what I hear,
They intend to return in the spring with a,

Bigger fleet, bigger aircraft and more routes!

Cheers,
kpiko

[ALLMCC]

Just wondering if anyone has heard any rumours about the proposed restructure - think its springtime now despite the weather!

(Jockflyer, hope you got fixed up with something else)