View Full Version : Politics

8th Dec 2004, 14:52
Hey ! why..the political thread has benn deleted.. too bad i just posted something against that one (not deleted).

"From the BBC, the French authorities have failed to trace the misplaced plastic explosive and as a result have moved their country's alert status to the third highest possible...

The only two higher levels are collaboration and surrender...

8th Dec 2004, 15:09
I cannot be held responsible. I am not a simple café owner even if I may turn around when someone calls out Réné. In or out of a café. If I have said or more likely written something verbotten recently in the now-deleted thread, then it is more likely the fault of William Lawson (Distillers). Blame it all on the British airmen in the attic, I say...:uhoh:

8th Dec 2004, 15:14
Hoo as pulled the emergency stop chaine on ze train?! :suspect:

8th Dec 2004, 15:23
Did you folks in France get "Allo Allo" over there? If so, Was it translated? If it was translated, How the hell was it translated?

8th Dec 2004, 15:44
Did you folks in France get "Allo Allo" over there? If so, Was it translated? If it was translated, How the hell was it translated?

Obviously the policeman was not translated :} :}

8th Dec 2004, 15:47
I ave watched "allo allo" in France. It does not translate very well. Do u remebre the scenes wiv ze French policeman who was really a British agent sent to help the airmen escape? E spoked ze very bad English while pretending to be a Frenchman. In French, ze hole series is about peuple speaking very bad French while pretending to be Frenchmen who could speke English, but in French...?! Eye am already confused. Benny Hill was so much more simple...and populaire ere in France. Some zay ze girls were prettier too in Benny Hill. But they ver never as accomodating as was Yvette...! ;)

Biggles Flies Undone
8th Dec 2004, 15:48
"I am sorry that I am lit, but I had to wick curfully down the stroot because I have five fit of fuse wound round my log, and detonators dingling down my troosers."

Classic :ok:

8th Dec 2004, 16:04
L A J ..

too bad i just translated the entire story of WW2 for Maple !! :D

just to stop the "surender bla bla bla" and all the BS about ww2..... maybe the forum couldn't endure my 2 pages post and bugged :D

or maybe the mods have lost a thread just like the 2 stupid loose a bar of plastic :D

lost : a political thread and a bar of chocolate..thanks to bring them back !

8th Dec 2004, 16:05
Never heard of it!

Still on Châteauneuf du Pape (15 years old to get the balanced aromas)

tony draper
8th Dec 2004, 16:35
Best just to post a link to a article you want folks to read Mr Zeeoo,unless its just a small snippet, the powers that be int to fond of pages of cut and paste.

8th Dec 2004, 16:48
tony, alas , the bare facts are much more efficient... sometimes

saying "USA had a Neutrality agreement with hitler" and "US didnt declare the war to the nazis" would be taken as an insult without these facts ... as we take as an insult "surrender monkey" given the facts...

BTW this old Churchill crackpot denied France aviation support !
hey tony ! let's be enemies ! :}

BTW (2) the alarm is always pulled when the train goes the same direction... how do you call it .. pari..partal...partalit..shit I don't know.

8th Dec 2004, 16:55
Ah wunder, if one wus to bring a suitable cheese for ze dégustation, if Grandpa would share some of that famous Provençal plonk...?! :)

tony draper
8th Dec 2004, 17:48
Certainly not Mr Zeeoo, one has a great fondness for France and all things French,one only has to read one's posts to realise this, ones life would be empty without France and other furriners to comment upon.

8th Dec 2004, 18:03
Mr Tony, I definitely couldn't see the evil in you..

My latin temper forces me to say :
Drink and eat and dance and smoke and #### and give peace and wisdom a little rest.

Happy Christmas for all..

8th Dec 2004, 19:37
You bring the pélardon (not too old, not too new...) I bring the wine.

Put more sarments in the fire, and let us invite Tony, so I have a chance he explains me his triple meanings jokes.

He could also tell us about the necessity to delete anti-war posts, when you can read same arguments inside CIA official reports............when Generals talk openly about soldiers loosing their souls and shooting three years old...........when Dubya himself ackowledges "Democracy" will not come to Iraq tomorrow.

Winners by default we are!!


8th Dec 2004, 20:11
All this seasonal goodwill is spoiling my fun.
Well done mods, will put the scattergun away for xmas.
MG :O ;)

West Coast
9th Dec 2004, 05:44

Did you use the sphincter word again and kill the thread?

9th Dec 2004, 05:54
any one interested in knowing the history of the neocons should read this.


West Coast
9th Dec 2004, 06:03

Perhaps you could help me out, what is a neocon? I've asked, but no one from your side can or has been able to answer. Kinda like the little kid who hears a new word and thinks its cool to use it despite not knowing what it means.

9th Dec 2004, 06:04
Well, that was not biased was it? Jezz guys the political thread was deleted for a reason, ok?

And that crap that FatEric just cut and pasted is proof.

Time to move on folks.

Sorry West, you posted as I was writing, my post was directed to FatEric. Grandpa, etc.

Now back to something really serious, your point spread for the USC/OU game?

Me, OU 21 USC 14.

Hey, I got dreams!

9th Dec 2004, 12:34
No desire to start a row...but just curious as to what you all think of this current situation in NI?

Is the opportunity for total disarmament of IRA weapons and a 'declaration of permanent cessation of hostilities' being thrown away by hard line unionism?

9th Dec 2004, 12:36
Is the production of a photo/ videos for proof so onerous?

9th Dec 2004, 13:52
A possible explanation of why the production of the photos was so difficult (it's from the Guardian, ok, but bear with it).

N.I. Disarmament (http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1369545,00.html)


West Coast
9th Dec 2004, 16:34

Dream on Con. Your boys are gonna be drinking the cheap stuff!!

cargo boy
9th Dec 2004, 16:47
Looks like some of those 'charities' that collected on behalf of the IRA might be a little worried after this case:

Source: http://image.guardian.co.uk/sitelogos/Guardian.gif

$156M Awarded to Parents of Slain Teen (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-4662660,00.html)

Thursday December 9, 2004 11:01 AM


Associated Press Writer

CHICAGO (AP) - The parents of an American teenager killed by gunmen outside Jerusalem won $156 million from three Islamic groups and an alleged Hamas fund-raiser, one of the first jury awards against institutions based in the United States accused of supporting terrorism.

A federal court jury set $52 million in damages Wednesday in the suit brought by the parents of 17-year-old David Boim. U.S. Magistrate Arlander Keys tripled the amount in accord with U.S. anti-terrorism law.

The Boim case was the first in which jurors awarded damages from U.S.-based charities accused of bankrolling Hamas, according to Boim attorney Nathan Lewin.

It was a fresh blow to a group of Islamic charities and others who have seen their assets frozen and in some cases found themselves under federal indictment for allegedly funding terrorist groups as part of the post-Sept. 11 war on terrorism.

Joyce and Stanley Boim, who moved their family from New York to Jerusalem in 1985 for religious reasons and have long fought the case through the courts, were elated.

"I finally have justice for David,'' Joyce Boim told reporters. "He's up there, smiling down.''

Before the trial started, the judge found the Texas-based Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development, the Islamic Association for Palestine and alleged Hamas fund-raiser Mohammed Salah liable in Boim's death.

The jury found that the Quranic Literacy Institute of suburban Oak Lawn, a group that translates Islamic religious texts, also was responsible for the 1996 shooting.

Both sides said a hard-fought appeal battle was guaranteed.

Amer Haleem, secretary of the Quranic Literacy Institute, left the courthouse saying the case was part of a wave of anti-Muslim hysteria. He promised there would be "a vigorous appeal.''

Boim attorney Stephen Landes also anticipated more court fights ahead. "It may wind up in the U.S. Supreme Court,'' he said.

U.S. law allows victims of overseas terrorist groups to sue American organizations that finance them. The Boims maintain Islamic charities have been raising money for guns and explosives in this country while using charity as a cover.

Boim attorneys said they hoped the verdict and other cases being filed under the same law would help to choke off the flow of money to terrorist groups in the Mideast.

The government already had frozen the assets of Holy Land, Quranic Literacy and Salah. Salah and Holy Land are both currently under federal indictment on charges of stemming from their alleged support of Hamas.

There is little likelihood that the Boims will collect the full $156 million. Not only are the assets of three defendants frozen by the government, but federal prosecutors are asking the court in Texas to order Holy Land to forfeit its assets.

"If there's any money there, we'll get it,'' Landes said.

Lawyers for Holy Land, Islamic Association for Palestine and Salah boycotted the trial. Veteran Chicago defense attorney John Beal, representing Quranic Literacy, was ordered to be on hand but declined to address the jury or cross-examine witnesses. He maintained that Keys didn't give his group enough time to mount a defense.

Holy Land attorney James Fennerty and Salah attorney Matthew Piers did not immediately return telephone calls seeking comment on the verdict Wednesday.

9th Dec 2004, 17:41
Have no doubt at all that Ian Paisly who is a hard line rabble rousing blowhard from way back is bound and determined to rub salt into any wound he can. He has indeed made his inopportune remarks on humiliation, sackcloth and ashes, and would no doubt love to have the IRA crawling through the streets on their knees if he could, not that they ever would.
BUT, DISCOUNTING the rhetoric, get to the nub of the objection. A not unreasonable request for evidence has been made and rejected. The comment on ritual humiliation by the IRA to my mind is a rather feeble, and innefectual smokescreen, it is definitely not penises in the mouth or anything like though I daresay the Dr would have gone along with that one
Many promises in the past, from both sides, have not been fulfilled. In regard to the specific promises of disarmament that have been made by the IRA in regard to these last talks, what solid proof if any has been offered.
Weapons which have been made useless? Photos? Videos?
anything tangible? or simply a statement that they have done it.
If a weapon has been decommissioned? damaged beyond repair then there would appear to be no harm in displaying that this has been done, unless of course that the sheer quantity would be embarrasing. I would suspect that we are not talking about the paucity rather than the volume.
The explanation given by the IRA does seem at best rather feeble. Evidence of what has been done to put weapons beyond use is simply verification of a fact.

tony draper
9th Dec 2004, 17:55
I wouldn't be to impressed with pickies of arms being decomisioned/destroyed anyway, there are prolly still caches of arms intended to resist the Germans had they invaded buried all over blighty,
I recall watching a clip of arms being handed over for destruction in Kosova I think it was, impressed the hell out of the news media luvies, lots of old straight bolt Sniders circa 1909, a few old shotguns(black powder prolly) and a few token AK47, I remember one bearded old retrobate could hardly contiain his mirth as he solemly handed over his grandads musket, you can bet most of the good stuff will still be buried for future reference.
Always puzzled me as to why the IRA and the loyalists for that matter, wanted warehouses stuffed with enough hardware to equip a division for anyway, they were never stupid enough to take on the Army in open warfare, I think vast quantities of stored arms are more to impress their various backers than any practical use.

PS Incidently Mr zeeoo, one knows the whereabout of a cache of German rifles, machine pistols and a spandau,with appropriate ammo buried in a wood in your country, left there by one's old Uncle Hugh at the end of the war in rea diness for the revolution the he hoped for in blighty after the war,he said, alas as we all know and much to old Hughs dissapointment said revolution never occured, bit of a lefty was old Hugh.


9th Dec 2004, 18:12
Ahh yes, "...come the revolution the red flag will fly comrades."
I remember some of the old catchphrases some of the more militant of the union used to trot out.

9th Dec 2004, 20:40
For Zeeoo I think it's "Grandola villa morena", one I appreciate much along with "Chant des Partisans" (this one composed and written in London, a bloody war song for French Résistance - or "terrorists" according to the collaborators propaganda...)

9th Dec 2004, 20:55
Interesting discussion between Rummy the Great and the men who have to do the job in Eyerack on CNN yesterday.

"You go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time", Rummy said when someone from the audience asked him why they have to obtain their armor from the Iraqi scrap yards....

What a friggin chutzpah for an army with a budget that amounts more than all other countries on Planet Earth together :yuk:

Trashman, could you please collect this garbage bag??

edited for spelling (what else? :( )

9th Dec 2004, 21:23
Capt :

I hope the brave us soldiers appreciate very much the meals served by Halliburton , with the money they earned with those shameless contracts, i hope the beans are bullet-proof :(

Grandpa : i appreciate a lot the "The partisan "song from Leonard Cohen


9th Dec 2004, 23:17
I think the whole weapons/photo thing was a red herring personally.

How on earth could you see a functioning government between Sinn Fein and the DUP when Ian Paisley won't even SPEAK directly to Adams or any other member of his party...not even in the pursuit of decomissioning of all IRA weapons!

Paisley even refuses to shake hands with the Irish Prime Minister Bertie Aherne...although he will deign to actually speak to him!

The DUP are like Custers Army...surrounded on all sides by enemies...HM Government/Irish Government/Sinn Fein/SDLP/UUP...siege mentality prevails.

10th Dec 2004, 07:20
Is it a "civilisation clash"..............or the remnant of a colonial war?

10th Dec 2004, 08:22
WASHINGTON, Dec. 8, 2016 -- President-elect George P. Bush announced today that he would reappoint Donald Rumsfeld to another term as secretary of defense. Rumsfeld has served in that position since he was appointed by President George W. Bush in 2001. After serving two terms in George W. Bush's administration, Rumsfeld served an additional two terms in the subsequent administration of President Jeb Bush. His 16 consecutive years heading the Pentagon is the longest uninterrupted tenure of any defense secretary, and that doesn't include the nearly two years he served in that post under President Gerald Ford. Rumsfeld is 84.

Sources close to the president-elect say that failing to reappoint Rumsfeld would be taken as a criticism of his uncle, former president George W. Bush, whose decision to invade Iraq in the spring of 2003 has bogged down U.S. forces there in a bloody and ongoing conflict that has lasted nearly 14 years. "George W. is mighty proud of independent Kurdistan," said one former official who is close to the Bush family. "He may have regrets about the Islamic Theocratic Republic of Basra, particularly since they got the bomb, and the PTCZWBOS [Permanent Temporary Curfew Zone Where Baghdad Once Stood], but he'll never admit it."

Rumsfeld does not plan on serving all four years of President-elect Bush's term, one Defense Department official said today. "As soon as things turn up, the moment the Green Zone is secured, he's out of there."

One figure in the outgoing and incoming administrations who argued strongly for Rumsfeld's retention was Vice President-elect Dick Cheney, who first worked with Rumsfeld in the Ford administration. Cheney himself is about to begin his fifth term as vice president, a record-breaking tenure brought about in part by the decision of his cardiologists in 2008 that he could not safely be moved from the vice president's office.

Both Presidents George W. Bush and Jeb Bush periodically found themselves compelled to mount strenuous defenses of Rumsfeld's lengthy tenure. In a memorable 2006 news conference, a visibly exasperated President George W. Bush argued that wartime presidents had traditionally stuck with their commanders for the full duration of their conflicts. "Lincoln didn't dump McClellan, and I'm not dumping Rumsfeld," the president declared, leading the White House press office to issue its now-famous clarification that the Civil War had actually ended in 1862.

Rumsfeld's most recent term was marked by controversy over the extended tours of duty that many of the U.S. soldiers and marines in Iraq have been compelled to serve. With enlistments in the armed services down to a trickle, and with Congress unable to find the votes to pass the so-called Sensenbrenner Plan to staff the armed services with unpaid, undocumented immigrants, many of the front-line U.S. soldiers in Iraq have been serving there since 2004, their terms of enlistment repeatedly extended by Rumsfeld's order.

Since the Mutiny of 2009 Defense Department officials have been concerned that bringing the "colonial army" home would risk infecting stateside troops with a crisis of morale. "We're fighting low morale in Iraq," one general said, "so we don't have to fight it here at home."

Rumsfeld's decision to remain at the Pentagon's helm may not have been dictated entirely by his desire to stay until the PTCZWBOS is secured. "Don took a bath when the dollar tanked back in 2005," one prominent Republican said, "and hasn't done all that well since the dollar was pegged to the yuan. In the absence of Social Security, he can't afford to quit."

link (http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=8921)

Curious Pax
10th Dec 2004, 08:52
Tend to agree with Idunno on the photos thing - I think Paisley picked that option because he didn't believe the IRA would go for it, then when it was looking like they might he made the sackcloth and ashes comments to make sure they didn't. At some point if a deal is to be done then the IRA have to be trusted to keep their side of the bargain - a photo of weapons destruction gives not the slightest proof that they don't have a cache somewhere else that no one knows about. Perhaps Uncle Hugh told them where his stash was?

As I understand it there had been agreement that a Protestant churchman nominated by the DUP, and a Catholic one nominated by Sinn Fein could witness the process, in addition to General de Chastelain, who seems trusted to a fair degree by both sides.

It was interesting to read a couple of articles with vox pops in Belfast which seemed to suggest that the local populace generally view the whole thing as an irrelevance to them, as bombs haven't been going off on their doorsteps for some while. I realise that localised violence was still going on - however reports about that seem to have gone fairly quiet in recent time, although I know not whether that is boredom of the press with the issue, or a reduction in such crimes.

10th Dec 2004, 09:52
So "the job" still going on in 2016?

Four years not enough for sure...........................

10th Dec 2004, 09:59
Paisley. He's a man of god right? I sincerely doubt he's ever seen a photo of God, yet he believes doesn't he?

10th Dec 2004, 10:29
No, Paterbrat, production of a photo is not reasonable. As has been pointed out, his insistence upon photos is simply to rub salt in the wounds, to gloat, or to derail the peace process so far. Otherwise he is publicly casting doubt on the honesty and integrity of Gen. Chastellain and everything he has achieved so far. And if Chastellain is dishonest, then there is nothing to stop the photo being faked, is there?

Paisley is a thoroughly dishonest, prejudiced, evil man. And I don't say that simply because my sympathies lie on the other side of the divide. I do not say such things about, say, Trimble or other Unionist politicians. But Paisley is so filled with hate and burning desire to stamp Catholics into the dust that he will stop at nothing.

Curious Pax
10th Dec 2004, 11:16
Although by birth I am a Prod, and don't have a high opinion of many of the Roman Catholic beliefs, a look around www.ianpaisley.org (http://www.ianpaisley.org) will backup XXTSGR's view of the guy. It's one thing disagreeing with peoples views, but someone purporting to be a cleric should be better than the contempt and abuse on display there.

10th Dec 2004, 12:43
Arafat's death opened new possibilities for peace in the ME. One may wonder if the same thing might happen when Paisley will finally see if he was right all the time when he closes his eyes forever.

"The rest of the huge relics at which the dignitaries gazed bore inscriptions recording the subjection of the nations to Rome. One wonders whether Tony Blair’s “guide” showed him the AD 51 fragment of arch celebrating the conquest of Britain by Claudius." (from his website).

Clearly the Reverend Paisley is living in his own Twilight Zone... :rolleyes:

10th Dec 2004, 16:15
The best argument I ever read on Pprune!

You should be awarded "Jesuit of the year", and your picture stuck in every confessional.


10th Dec 2004, 18:48
....SGR having already agreed with you on Paisly, indeed prefaced my prior entry with his pedigree, I think we can stop on that issue. I then asked what was so onerous about producing proof positive of weapon decomissioning. Your reply has been disapointing.

Weapons put out of action by ANY side should be produced in order that everybody concerned can SEE for themselves what exactly has taken place and how much has been completed. Since prior promises by all sides have failed in the past to be fulfilled, the suspicions of all can be dispelled by concrete evidence.

That is not humiliation simply indisputable evidence. Saying that not believing Chastelaine is not nice is simply smoke up the back passage, and yes I do agree again photos can be faked which is why I would ask for the items themselves to be placed into custody. Which of course would be even more disagreeable an condition I am sure, but one few could disbelieve

10th Dec 2004, 19:00
Praterbrat, either Chastellain is trustworthy or he is not. He has been for quite some time now accepted by both sides as an independent judge of decommissioning. Yet all of a sudden, his word is apparently not accepted by Paisley. Why not? I give you two scenarios. Either:- Chastellain is not trusted any more and, if he is untrustworthy, any photographs taken under his auspices are unlikely to be genuine, thus being worthless; or Paisley simply wants to derail the peace processWhat has been going on quietly for quite some time now with several successful disrmament sessions is in danger of being stopped altogether. Paisley is playing petty politics just to spite the Nationalist community.

If you find that "disappointing" as a reply I can't help that. If you find it to be "smoke up the back passage" then I can't help that either. I suggest you come up with some constructive argument for a change instead of your usual pseudo-intellectual claptrap. As an intelligent chap, I'm sure you're capable of that.

10th Dec 2004, 19:12
Tut tut XGR even more dissapointing. You failed to adress my point at all.

I say again in case you missed it, twice, Paisly bad, no good, yes trying derailment, can I put it any clearer.

Photos not good enough can be faked, already agreed with you there.

Chastellain's word appears to be not good enough.

What you have singularly and noticably failed to even comment on was the thrust of my argument on the production of decommissioned weapons by all sides. So stop repeating yourself and try harder, there's a good fellow.

A bright fellow like you must be able to make some sort of comment I think, you might manage?

Yes we can both be supercillious :hmm: Sorry will have to postpone further discussion as dinner awaits.

11th Dec 2004, 10:43
Dinner was good but I see XX..GR has dissapeared as well, ah well I guess he hasn't any comment on indisputable evidence being an idea to move the agreement further forward then.:hmm:

11th Dec 2004, 19:50
How was your breakfast?

12th Dec 2004, 17:26
Skipped in favour of lunch, thank you Grandpa. I am partial to Douglas kippers however the Mrs object to the smell, which does in truth linger, so I build up the appetite for the Sunday roast, if there is one. Lamb stew today.

Was fascinated by the bland reassurances on the Frost program by the Labour representative about the legal issues on religious intolerance and the fear that proscutions over jokes would simply not happen. If only we could be so sure???

12th Dec 2004, 20:21
Anybody volunteer to trust anything from a Labour Government Minister's mouth?

12th Dec 2004, 20:58
You may joke about anything Pater................but not with everybody.

13th Dec 2004, 02:12
Paterbrat, photographs, or weapons handed over mean absolutely nothing without honest intent.

At least one other grouping in NI handed over a few rusty rifles some years ago..declared a ceasefire...then carried on killing.

The IRA has been on ceasefire since 1996. That demonstrates at least an amount of goodwill in my view. If they simply handed over a few rusty rifles like that other crowd, it might satisfy you, but I'd be asking how I can be sure they didn't just go out and buy another bunch to replace them.

I'd prefer to have the assurance of an agreed and unreserved total decomissioning, than a resentful and forced empty gesture.

13th Dec 2004, 07:01
Heu?..............Sorry not yet completed!

Another missiles pack had to be dispensed there yesterday to make sure Democracy was really on the way...........

For sure a lot of Iraqis were allready killed in Fallujah, but, as things goes, no doubt someone in Pentagon is counting the beans:

How high is the cost in terms of (Human losses -Versus- $ spent) ?