PDA

View Full Version : Antibiotics


tony draper
8th Dec 2004, 07:59
Watched a interesting doc in the Peoples Century series yesterday about the health or lack thereof of nations historically.
Wonder how many of us crumblies would have made it this far without penicilin and vaccination how quickly a generation forgets the big killers of just sixty years ago,we worry now about paedophiles and our kids being involved in road traffic accidents and such when in the past people more or less expected to lose children to the killer diseases.
Both my father and step father lost their mothers to TB in their teens both lost a brother and sister in childhood, my mother lost a brother.
Thank you Mr Fleming and Jenner.
:cool:

gingernut
8th Dec 2004, 08:17
Mr Drapes, sorry to ruin any illusions, but you enjoy your good health because you've got clean running water and (hopefully) adequate sanitation.

The majority of modern medicine is absolute sh1t. TB is a terrible disease, but rates were dropping, prior, to the introduction of the vaccine.

I would hazard a guess, that western medicine has caused more problems through the use of antibiotics, than it has cured.

Some things do actually work, (immunisations being one), but unfortunately, most of the crap we dole out is positively dangerous.

slim_slag
8th Dec 2004, 08:42
... and you can safely drink moderate amounts of alcohol when taking most antibiotics, but drink on the wrong antibiotic and you will feel worse than your worst hangover. If I only had one medicine to take to a deserted island for the rest of my life it would be an anaesthetic agent.

gingernut
8th Dec 2004, 08:59
May I suggest "Midazolam."

Had some recently in the dentist chair. I think it was pretty good, although can't remember too much, but my wife said I sat there giggling and asked her if she fancied a bit......after I'd asked the dental nurse.

Must have been good stuff.

bear11
8th Dec 2004, 10:04
- amazing these days how revisionist people can be regarding history when they're not falling like flies from the plague, cholera, influenza, pneumonia, etc. Sanitation does lower mortality rates as it stops the spread, but it does not kill the cause. The issue today is over/mis-use of these drugs, and ensuring that they get to the right people, whether they have the money to pay or not.

I remember seeing a graph in college showing deaths over the centuries from various microbial diseases and how they've all dwindled to tiny numbers these days thanks to modern medicine. The only 2 things that are on the rise these days are 1) food poisoning and 2) Sexually Transmitted Diseases, both of which are a lifestyle choice, ie; I haven't heard of a shagging or eating out epidemic yet. Where's sanitation when you need it?

MadsDad
8th Dec 2004, 10:22
I think we need both. Of the examples given better sanitation was responsible for the eradication, in the UK at least, of some diseases (Typhoid and Cholera and Plague were virtually unheard of due to better sanitation before vaccines were available) while others (smallpox, mumps, measles for instance) had to wait until vacines became available (and with the fall in MMR immunisation epidemics of both mumps and measles are expected). As far as I know smallpox is the only disease beleived to have been totally eradicated from the face of the Earth, all the others survive, albeit in isolated pockets).

As for the rise in STDs and food poisoning they are lifestyle choices but seem to be endemic in our current 'live fast play hard' lifestyle. For instance one prime cause of the rise in food poisoning is due to the rise in the use of processed/pre-cooked foods due to the (perceived) lack of time. And I say perceived because that is due to the fact that we are making a choice to spend our time watching the tele rather than cooking.

gingernut
8th Dec 2004, 10:30
amazing these days how revisionist people can be regarding history when they're not falling like flies from the plague, cholera, influenza, pneumonia,


could you possibly enlighten me as to which medicines have actually stopped these diseases ?


I remember seeing a graph in college showing deaths over the centuries from various microbial diseases and how they've all dwindled to tiny numbers these days thanks to modern medicine.


say's who ?



Don't you get it ? It's mostly a big con. If you want to improve people's health, invest in something that we know works.....pre-school education for example.

slim_slag
8th Dec 2004, 10:44
Crapper did far more for community health than Fleming. Keep your shite away from your drinking water is rule number one, two, three .......

tony draper
8th Dec 2004, 11:02
Well the Chinese had five thousand years of touchy feely medicine and never cured a dammed thing, we had 200 years of medicine based on science , and literally eradicated all the man killers.
I tend to believe the words of a battlfield surgeon,
"I saw hundreds of men who by all the laws of the universe should have been dead survive because of that drug"
I also agree that sanitation and clean water played a huge part.

bear11
8th Dec 2004, 11:11
Of course we need both - nutrition is the other vital factor. But please spare me the "aliens have taken over our health system" routine - there's no grassy knoll here. Of course if you look at the mortality graphs, there was a serious drop in mortality prior to the introduction of antibiotics and vaccines, but to make the illogical leap from that to saying that antibiotics and vaccines are a big con? Ask the thousands and thousands of troops who survived WW2 who wouldn't have made in in WW1 due to the lack of antibiotics at the time if they work, for a start. You could also have a look at the following 2 links:

http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/dcutler/papers/cutler_meara_boulders_2001_final.pdf

http://www.ipa.udel.edu/education/courses/econ490/Production_of_Health.pdf

Of course, if the aliens have really taken over, then these links must be propaganda.....

Omark44
8th Dec 2004, 11:35
SlimSlag sorry mate but your arguments are flawed!

If, when prescribed antibiotics, you choose to drink then all you achieve is to cancel out the anti-biotics! You may feel great at the time but you won't do anything to cure the ailment.

If you are prescribed anti-biotics then you stay off the sauce for the same period, usually five days, minimum.

tony draper
8th Dec 2004, 11:51
I suppose it could be argued that antibiotics has helped put a end to natural selection among humankind, those with a natural immunity to some disease don't survive because of their immunity and pass on their genes more successfully than those no immunity, all survive because of medication.
Of course tha improvement in sanitation medicine diet ect has also contributed to the survival of individuals who would have died under different circumstances, ie a world without th benifits we enjoy now.

I know I ofter say in as a joke but seems to me that there is some truth in the new generation being a tad weedier than their forefathers,disease prone wise, that is.
:(

Boss Raptor
8th Dec 2004, 11:54
If I recall in Praed Street next to the older side of St. Mary's Hospital is a blue plaque to Dr. Fleming by a first floor window of a non descript building overlooking the street - in that lab and in that window the first mould growth was found...impressive thought

airship
8th Dec 2004, 12:12
I've a great idea. Let's just send all the antibiotics that doctors prescribe unnecessarily, out to the countries where hunger is why 1 child dies every 5 seconds according to the UN's Food and Agriculture Organisation (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4078003.stm). Drapes mentioned paedophiles, so instead of spending all those tax-dollars imprisoning them, why not just send them all out there too? If they love kids so much, they might be able to save a few! And if they don't, maybe they'll starve to death too. After all, we all love kids so much that we allow 5 million of them to die every year, don't we?! Of course, some fates are worse than death... :mad: :uhoh: :sad:

419
8th Dec 2004, 12:13
Omark,
below is the list of warning given by one maker of Ampicillin (The most widely prescribed antibiotic made). No mention of alcohol.
If you look up the details for Streptomycin, it is the same.

tell your doctor and pharmacist if you are allergic to ampicillin, penicillin, or any other drugs.
tell your doctor and pharmacist what prescription and nonprescription medications you are taking, especially other antibiotics, allopurinol (Lopurin), anticoagulants ('blood thinners') such as warfarin (Coumadin), atenolol (Tenormin), oral contraceptives, probenecid (Benemid), rifampin, sulfasalazine, and vitamins.
tell your doctor if you have or have ever had kidney or liver disease, allergies, asthma, blood disease, colitis, stomach problems, or hay fever.
tell your doctor if you are pregnant, plan to become pregnant, or are breast-feeding. If you become pregnant while taking ampicillin, call your doctor.

According to my GP, the only problem comes if you drink large quantities of beer. This will cause the antibiotic to be flushed out of your system before it gets absorbed. He said that 99% of doctors now agree that the alcohol/antibiotic interaction does not exist.

gingernut
8th Dec 2004, 13:15
Bear, thanks for the links. Although guilty of only a quick appraisal, its quite obvious that Cutler and Meara's descriptive study, is just that, a descriptive study, which doesn't actually show, with reasonable certainty, that antibiotics have actually made a difference to mortality.

Whilst the study, is, on the face of it, very impressive, it , unfortunatley appears not to stand up to appraisal. I do have a few references for aids to critical appraisal, if you are interested.

Whilst I have no doubt that antibiotics, have, in cases, cured disease, and lengthened life, I would suggest, that, in the big scheme of things, they have probably caused more suffering, than they have alleviated.

I seem to remember that the biggest killer in WW1, was influenza. If you know of an antibiotic which can effectively treat this condition, please let me know.


PS, I can cope with the aliens, its the drug companies I have difficulty with.

airship
8th Dec 2004, 13:35
I believe that far too many physicians confuse mortality with morality when prescribing antibiotics. When it pleases both the patient...and the drug company?! :=

bear11
8th Dec 2004, 15:14
We'll have to agree to differ on it, then - I put the Cutler and Meara link in as it tackles the specific point you were making.

"Whilst I have no doubt that antibiotics, have, in cases, cured disease, and lengthened life, I would suggest, that, in the big scheme of things, they have probably caused more suffering, than they have alleviated". You can suggest away, but can you offer any empirical evidence to show it? I'm more than happy to have a look at it and eat crow if necessary. Oh, yeah - influenza is a virus, antibiotics do nothing for it, but for the last 10 years I've had a flu vaccine every October and never had a problem, touch wood. Nothing an Irish man likes more than a good argument....

My reaction to your post was prompted due to more than one bizarre similar-ish conversation I had recently with what I thought were rational people apres pub. Delete as applicable - "you don't know what they're putting in our food, maaan" / "how do you know the drugs work or that they do what you're told they do, maaan", etc, etc. Is someone doing a postgraduate diploma in this stuff on the internet?

I have a healthy respect for science, but I also have Luddite views on things like gene and stem cell research and GM food, and think that pharma companies are bigger parasites than the ones some of their products cure, and doctors who hand antibiotics out like sweeties should be struck off. I do believe the best cures lie in natural means - there are many examples of what happens when you make an unnatural intervention in a natural environment. Having said that, the original antibiotic was produced by a natural penicillium mould, and most vaccines are an attenuated (usually by heat) real virus or portion of the viral coat to allow our immune system to recognise it if the real thing ever pays a visit. Bugs and viruses in general are bastards to kill - incredibly adaptive, and they can be found on everything from camera lens scratches to volcanoes. I also believe in the cyclical nature of all things - ie; the bugs had the upper hand for yonks, and even though we've done a good job for the last 100 years, it's not a given that we will continue to do so.

And I would love if someone could explain to me how such a switched-on information society which learned its hard lessons on hygiene over one hundred years ago can still instantly forget the basics just prior to falling in the scratcher or opening the oven door? Tony's natural selection theory may not be too far from the truth...

airship
8th Dec 2004, 15:33
Oh come on Drapes! That was a particularly nasty slinky shot regarding the Chinese Well the Chinese had five thousand years of touchy feely medicine and never cured a dammed thing, we had 200 years of medicine based on science , and literally eradicated all the man killers. Who knows what unmentioneable diseases might have existed 5,000 years ago and were cured by means of 2 pinches of sabre-toothed tiger eye-lashes? Before those who lived on the prime meridian even knew they were living on UTC?! After all, if the Chinese hadn't invented gunpowder, your battlefield surgeon may not have been able to utter..."I saw hundreds of men who by all the laws of the universe should have been dead survive because of that drug". There was a man-killer to end all man-killers. Not sure if the politicians and generals may have been an influenza on matters. I know Tiger balm smells pretty strong but there's nothing better for a headache IMHO...! :O

gingernut
9th Dec 2004, 08:27
how do you know the drugs work or that they do what you're told they do, maaan

Exactly, the crux of the argument.

Several examples of where the "empirical" evidence has let my patient's down recently, include ssri's, cox-II inhibitors, HRT, Thalidomide etc etc.




Bugs and viruses in general are bastards to kill - incredibly adaptive, and they can be found on everything from camera lens scratches to volcanoes.


I'm not that interested in what the scientist sees through his microscope, I'm interested in the outcome for my community. Perhap's, if the so-called academics would occasionally step down from their ivory towers, and spend a little time with real people (with real problems), we may avoid misinformed comments such as,



doctors who hand antibiotics out like sweeties should be struck off.

bear11
9th Dec 2004, 09:11
Oh, for Gawd's sake - I give up, my last post on the subject. I have no stake in this other than a little knowledge due to the primary degree I did, and a determination to stick to facts rather than throwing smoke bombs around and avoiding the subject completely because the answers don't suit my particular conspiracy theory. The only reason I engaged in this is because it IS a very important subject. My comment on doctors handing out antibiotics is fully justified, and rather than bore everyone to death by listing a page of references, I've picked a couple of short readable references below:

http://www.utoronto.ca/kids/aboveruse.htm

http://www.worldchiropracticalliance.org/tcj/1996/jul/jul1996a.htm

This reference is readable also and worth reading for any parents who may have an interest because it explains the situation in non-rocket scientist terms:

http://kidshealth.org/parent/general/sick/antibiotic_overuse.html

Again, my apologies if I have bored anyone!

Omark44
9th Dec 2004, 09:56
Thanks for that info. 419. My personal experience is that booze and anti-biotics don't mix, i.e. booze simply wipes out the positive effect of the anti-biotic.

Possibly some of the major drug firms are owned by breweries?:}

ramsrc
9th Dec 2004, 11:29
Well, I for one would like to join Mr Draper in thanking Messrs Fleming and Jenner. I am currently getting over a particularly nasty infection with associated 40°C (104°F) fever. A 10 day course of ordinary bog standard Penicillin has helped enormously and will continue to do so until the end of the course tomorrow.

The main cause of the failure of antibiotics is not finishing the course and taking them in inappropriate situations. Selling antibiotics over the counter - such as in the US - is ridiculous.

If that means no beer for ten days then so be it. I felt ill enough not to care two hoots about beer!

slim_slag
9th Dec 2004, 11:46
ramsrc,

No doubt antibiotics save many lives each day, and there is no doubt that most people prescribed antibiotics would get better on their own. I have no idea what your particular problem is, but you probably shortened your illness only, which don't get me wrong is a good thing.

Where can you buy antibiotics over the counter in the US? You might be thinking of Mexico, good business it is to. Go to some border towns and there are more phamacies than whore-houses, and that's saying something. The people you see there buying 'over the counter' will almost exclusively be Americans with a prescription, it's just too expensive for them to purchase the same generics north of the border.

When I travel in countries where they don't keep the sewage away from the drinking water I don't carry antibiotics anymore. I do make sure I have lots of rehydration powder, that has saved my butt on more than one occasion. I've decided that when I succesfully treat my dysentry with drugs it only comes back three days later, and worse. So I live with it, and when I get home I take mega doses of whatever I have in my bathroom cabinet.

tony draper
9th Dec 2004, 11:47
There was a thread on the flu vaccine on another website couple of months back, apparently twas not to be had in the USA, peeps were flocking over the border to Canada and paying 200 dollars for same, the flu vaccine is just one example, people forget what a killer it can be, not had a hint of flu since I started getting the vaccine, my brother who refused the jab on macho grounds, got a real snorter of a dose couple of years back whilst the rest of the family sailed through that year untouched, needless to say he now does get the jab.

Paterbrat
9th Dec 2004, 12:06
The US flu early this year was contracted by me developed into pneumonia progressing to the point where I had begun to suffer from organ failure. Antibiotics and subsequently a number of other drugs has ensured my survival. Whether that was a good thing is another matter. Bear 11 as a bystander who for the moment had simply been interested to listen, my cents worth is that to argue with gingernut is useless. The biscuit appears to have a bee in the bonnet and passionately held ideas that seem unshakeable in the face of any logicaly held belief that runs counter to his/hers.
The image of sandles and thick woolly jumpers springs to mind, though I cannot for the life of me think why? and for which I of course unreservedly appologise nut.
As a present recipient of a cocktail of drugs and antibiotics I can with a fair degree of certainty report that I would not be here to cast such odious aspertions on our crumbly companion amongst the 'real' community' with their 'real problems' and in their fog of misinformation, but for the present range of medications available and I find myself taking.
I realise of course that this unhappy situation, my survival and the the opposition to his arguments?? may be unpalatable for the delectable sweetmeat, however I rejoice in the efforts and research done by those reviled drug companies. Yes the profits can be obscene, but no more so than the millions garnered by football stars or rap singers and Hollywood poseurs, none of whom do as much good for mankind in general.
I am at present taking an anti rejection drug which has garnered its parent drug company billions, my cousin who developed the drug for them was given a bonus of 50,000 dollars. Since he had spent years of research not unsurprisingly was a trifle put out. He has subsequently left and started his own company. This will no doubt be yet one more to be a bone of contention for the biscuit.
Oh, and yes the Patient Gardner was a good book,he is a great author if getting a trifle cynical, but then don't we all tend to that sometimes.

tony draper
9th Dec 2004, 12:20
Had a converstaion with a American chap on that thread of which I spoke Mr Perterbrat, because of a chest condition he had suffered recuring bouts of Pneumonia over the years, I asked him whether he had ever had the pneumonia jab, which we get here along with the flu jab, and he had never heard of it, seemed a bit strange that.
The pneumonia jab lasts five years or so I think, so I will be due a second one next year I think.

tall and tasty
9th Dec 2004, 12:24
Boss Raptor

If I recall in Praed Street next to the older side of St. Mary's Hospital is a blue plaque to Dr. Fleming by a first floor window of a non descript building overlooking the street - in that lab and in that window the first mould growth was found...impressive thought

My mother worked with this great man when she was a very young student and started her off in good stead for her career.

TnT

Paterbrat
9th Dec 2004, 12:34
I too had not heard of it Tony. Have now, and it has been administered along with the flu jab.
Sadly I had actualy tried to get a flu jab prior to my visit, since the news had been full of the epidemic, however the Dr I went to said the jab that he had available was for a different varient which was expected from the Hajis coming from the east and would have offered no protection?

MadsDad
9th Dec 2004, 13:46
Flu is a viral infection and not susceptble to anri-biotics. The thing about the flu innoculation is that it prevents you catching a particular variety (usually three types are combined I am told, so to be picky any one jab will protect you from the three types included) - but if you are unlucky enough to pick up the fourth the jab won't help you. The viruses included in any particular years injections are decided by what appear to be that years most likely (prevalent) viruses.

The anti-biotics are to guard against secondary bacterial infections (such as pneumonia) that occur while the bodies immune system is busy trying to defend itself against the original flu virus (and the bodies defence system is weakened).

The problem with over-prescription of antibiotics is that a few bugs will survive the treatment, those resistant to the antibiotics. The more people with the resistant bugs the more chance the rest of us have of catching them.

gingernut
9th Dec 2004, 13:50
Peterbrat, I'm glad you are feeling well on your treatment. As I said previously, I am of little doubt that antibiotics have in cases, cured disease, and lengthened life.

The biscuit appears to have a bee in the bonnet and passionately held ideas that seem unshakeable in the face of any logicaly held belief that runs counter to his/hers.

So far, I havn't found much logic in the arguments I am presented with.

Paterbrat
9th Dec 2004, 18:02
Thank you kindly Gingernut.

Based on a few of your responses shown below, your viewpoint would seem to be somewhat jaundiced, and hardly likely to be seeing any logic in any arguments put forward. I quote:-

"Mr Drapes, sorry to ruin any illusions, but you enjoy your good health because you've got clean running water and (hopefully) adequate sanitation.

The majority of modern medicine is absolute sh1t. TB is a terrible disease, but rates were dropping, prior, to the introduction of the vaccine.

I would hazard a guess, that western medicine has caused more problems through the use of antibiotics, than it has cured.

Some things do actually work, (immunisations being one), but unfortunately, most of the crap we dole out is positively dangerous.
___________

" plague, cholera, influenza, pneumonia,"

could you possibly enlighten me as to which medicines have actually stopped these diseases ?

_____________

say's who ?

Don't you get it ? It's mostly a big con. If you want to improve people's health, invest in something that we know works.....pre-school education for example.
_____________

Whilst I have no doubt that antibiotics, have, in cases, cured disease, and lengthened life, I would suggest, that, in the big scheme of things, they have probably caused more suffering, than they have alleviated.

PS, I can cope with the aliens, its the drug companies I have difficulty with."
_____________

Davaar
9th Dec 2004, 18:18
I am an entire layman, but I do some work with medics from time to time, and they do some on me altogether too often.

A few years ago I had a triple by-pass at a noted Heart Institute. If that place had been a motel, I would not have stayed more than five minutes. It was filthy. The linoleum, beside the bed, as I remember the floor covering was, had a furry culture growing where someone had spilled fluid. It was there when I arrived and it was there when I left. Some months later I mentioned this to one of the staff.

The explanation was simple: budget cuts. Whom did they let go first? The cleaners! Da Canadian value, that wonderful Health Scheme by which so many identify the country.

I asked: What about Lord Lister? What about antisepsis? What of Florence Nightingale?

Ah! was the reply, now we have the anti-biotics.

Since then several hospitals in Ontario have had the dreaded SARS panic, and it was a panic. Last time I was in for an operation (Spring of 2004) they gave me booster shots of anti-biotics pre the "procedure", as the euphemism goes these days. They are petrified they will have a hospital dirt-provoked epidemic. From my perspective, they should be. I hope some physician will tell me, with authority, that I am wrong.

Paterbrat
9th Dec 2004, 18:35
Was interested to see, in my recent sojourn that the student nurses hardly ever used the bottles of liquid alcohol atiseptic which they are supposed to use between patients. The procedures are in place, they are being followed by the trained older school, the up and coming however are frighteningly casual, and do not react well to being reminded. Standards are consequently plummeting.
My sister was a nurse of the old school, her training was thorough and almost draconian, the present day PC brigade simply couldn't hack it.

gingernut
11th Dec 2004, 11:14
which bit don't you understand?

snow goose
11th Dec 2004, 16:27
Gingernut, I understand.

Gingernut wrote about her/his “patient’s” (that’s Gingernut’s normally used plural, not mine”).

Now that really worries me. If Gingernut is NHS I’m not supposed to get a second opinion because all MDs are beyond reproach…then that shows just how wrong the NHS is and if I actually have to pay for kinky (apologies, Gingernut, but that is what it seems to me) advice … well, enough of that.

If Gingernut is medically qualified then she/he may have broken loose from many years of training. There are excellent books by the Royal Society of Medicine, the British Medical Association, and the American Medical Association where you can check up on your doc’s integrity, eccentricity, or obduracy; or the ill effects of prescribed drugs, cross effects or beneficial effects.

Thanks to the Yanks the days of secret prescriptions are now long gone and if the drug has the potential to harm you it’s up to you to find out. Dying from mysterious and illegible prescriptions never happened.; like fun! Likewise a diagnosis can often be checked and the medics are no longer likely to call you a hypochondriac if you read their association's own books which said associations intended for you, peasant.

Professionals of all sorts may not be up to date, up to speed, sober or without some private agenda; worse, they may not use a computer to stay up-to-date in a rapidly changing world..

Thanks to real docs, drug companies and hospitals, I live. Many meningitis kids, for example, died because of outright incompetence, inclusive a failure to use anti-biotics immediately.

AND>>>
How do all those GPs and “call me mister” docs put up with the filth in their hospitals? Seems that as many people leave hospital in a box from something unrelated to their admission as die in road accidents.

Couldn’t some of that “road safety” money, manpower and effort be put into actually cleaning hospitals, rather than quoting timetables for doing so?

SG

Nick Riviera
15th Dec 2004, 12:18
I'm not a doctor, but I'm pretty sure that I'm here today due to the copious amounts of antibiotics pumped into me when I was rushed into hospital with meningitis. I don't think clean running water came into the equation anywhere.

Mr Chips
15th Dec 2004, 13:22
Surgeon David Cooke said the split in the wall of the man's stomach had pushed food and beer into his abdominal cavity, making him septic. His insides had to be "washed out" twice and he was put on heavy-duty antibiotics . Wonder if the antibiotics helped save his life :E :E :E

quoted from The West Australia news, linked from another thread

gingernut
16th Dec 2004, 14:07
Unfortunately, there are lot's of assumptions being made about my personality, by contributors who don't even know me. I take comfort in the fact that, hopefully, this says more about them, than it does about me. Chill out !

Reading back through my post's, I fail to see anything illogical about my arguments, and so far, the evidence refuting my suppositions, has been fairly weak.

Interestingly, as yet, I can't see any medic, or simillar expert, disagreeing with my arguments.

Does anyone see the big picture ?

slim_slag
16th Dec 2004, 16:08
All I have to say to you lot who have totally misunderstood what gingernut is saying is..

Pseudomembranous colitis

PS Mr Chips, from the little you have said. If he is still alive (good chance he will still die) it wasn't the antibiotics that saved him, it was the surgeon, and you don't know how hard it is to say that through my gritted teeth ;)

El Grifo
16th Dec 2004, 18:04
Re the booze vs. antibitics debate, I can surely say that on the many occasions that I have supped the barley bree with medical consultants nae less, the word alway was, double your dose before you hit the bottle.

From the horse's mouth, so to speak.


:cool:

Solid Rust Twotter
16th Dec 2004, 19:19
Mmmmm

Gingernut sounds a bit like skydiverppl. Won't take no for an answer......:rolleyes:

gingernut
16th Dec 2004, 20:15
I'll be the first to hold up my hands if I thought I was wrong !

skydiverppl
9th Jan 2005, 23:09
Hey shut it Solid Rust Twotter!

I'm sure all gingernut wants is a balanced discussion, not close-minded critisism.

Loose rivets
10th Jan 2005, 06:16
One of my sons, would have died without an urgent late night injection of anti-biotic. It is probably the most frightened I have ever been, and I will never forget the image of the lifeless little chap scarcely breathing in his cot. He is now a professor, and has written papers on the immune system. He was full of good intentions...keeping antibiotics down to an absolute minimum, until he moved to an area with huge mixes of infections compared to our small English town.

Folk travel across the Rio Grande daily, put their kids in the same ‘learning center' as my grand children, and then go to work. The viral infections get taken care of naturally, but the subsequent bugs hit hard. Back to back infections had the whole family so low that my wife and I elected to spend much more time here than planned, just to get over this bad spell. My son has, to a large extent, changed his opinion about antibiotics. It has proved simply too dangerous not to follow local doctor's advice. They know how people from further north are affected.

One has only to walk round an old English graveyard to see the evidence of infant mortality. Looking back at my own family history is no different. Modern medicine works...on average.

Sitting in a large hospital in Essex UK, I became increasingly dismayed at the number of mistakes, that I as a layman could detect. Ridiculous failures, by staff that should have known better. I'm getting off thread, but I spent some time spitting nails in that place, and just got the usual "we're doing what we can, but it's getting worse, we know." In fairness the non contract staff were very aware, but just seemingly could not cope without a continuous flow of contract workers.

By the way, didn't the flu epidemic follow WW1? 20+ million in Europe. As for conditions v medicine. Well, Isaac Newton knew enough to isolate himself, but not too may folk could afford to move to a separate room, let alone an isolated town. And still can't.

arcniz
10th Jan 2005, 09:10
I believe many of the new medicines we are seeing presently work quite well, when used in moderation in the appropriate cases.

It is the nurses, doctors, hospitals and other intermediaries in the process who are:

a) indispensible if you are truly hurt or sick

b) frequently incompetent and deadly dangerous all the time, whether one is sick or not.

The more visibly insured or wealthy one is, the more dangerous they become - due to the motivation of health care professionals to "help" as much as possible in cases where incremental funds are available for disbursement to them.


I also believe that hygiene and a bit of discretion will avoid most problems, proper diet (such as local cheeses and fermented milk) will often fight the strange local bugs in the less sanitary parts of the world (perhaps after a brief period of adjustment), and very simple medical treatments - aspirin, salt, vinegar, peroxide, alcohol, iodine, plus tweezers and a sharp knife, will cure 98% of the (curable) problems that generate doctor visits. For the remaining two percent, serious, progressive infections, broken bones, bullet holes, etc.. one has no other choice than to risk institutionalized care.

Solid Rust Twotter
10th Jan 2005, 18:35
Aahh, skydiverppl.

Still hovering around here, I see. You and your closed mind and twisted little PMs.

gingernut
11th Jan 2005, 13:43
One has only to walk round an old English graveyard to see the evidence of infant mortality.

Ok, perhaps I'll concede a little.....there is a role for most modern vaccines in today's society.

But would antibiotics have made any difference to infant mortality rates....at all ?