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Heliport
6th Dec 2004, 21:33
Copied from a mil forum How Fast Can You Fly Backward? Or Why Helicopter Pilots are Superior

This has been a serious debate for quite some time with battle lines well drawn and the debate field hot, furious, and emotional. Obviously, the heat of the debate and the surety of the participants are directly proportional to the amount of liquid intelligence that has been consumed. Nevertheless, this humble observer will present the evidence that clearly proves helicopter pilots are, as a matter of fact, the most superior pilots in the aviation community.

First, let's talk about the numbers. Airplanes have a lot of numbers, V1, V2, VTOSS, MMO, the figures many civilian helicopter operations emulate. However, while helicopter pilots try to operate "by the numbers", the operating environment often precludes such a luxury. The 757 pilot is, "going to come over the fence at Vref+15k" or some other such number like that. Meanwhile, the helicopter lands on a rig, perhaps with a 30 knot head wind, a 15 knot crosswind, or maybe he has to land in a remote area with no wind... and he will LAND AT 0 KNOTS GROUNDSPEED! If you know anything about aerodynamics, I shouldn't have to say anything else - the safety of the numbers does not always grace the helicopter pilot therefore, they need special skill to compensate when the numbers are not even applicable. The rotorhead may be landing at 40 knots IAS or 0 knots... airplane safety margins are all off!

Not convinced, let's talk operating environment. It would be nice to be able to land on a flat piece of paved real estate that was 200 feet wide and 8000 feet long, for every landing; but for helicopter pilots, that's the exception rather than the rule (We are even told to "avoid the flow" of the starch wingers lest we upset their "numbers.")

Helicopter pilots are called to land on small offshore platforms, smaller shipboard platforms (that can be bobbing and weaving like Mike Tyson), rooftops, forests, jungles, and next to highways at night to pick up the injured. This is a VFR (Visual Flight Rules) operation that would make most airplane pilots cringe. This goes beyond those fixed wingers who call themselves "bush pilots." Helicopter pilots are the true Bush Pilots - they land and takeoff in the midst of the bushes!

To this, the helicopter pilot adds all the stuff the corporate or 121 operator does. They operate in dense airspace, fly instrument approaches, operate at busy airports, and fly in severe weather - often without the help of a four-axis autopilot with "autotrim." (In fact, the only autopilot may be control friction... and any objective dual-rated pilots will confess the helicopter is quite a bit more difficult to fly on the gauges!)

At this point I have to interject for the prima Donna part 91 operators in their Citation X's, Gulfstreams, and Falcon 50's. Yes Veronica, there are a lot of helicopters with color radar, multiple MFDs, EFIS, digital fuel controls, 4 axis autopilots, and all the other goodies, so don't go there! We can operate your fancy equipment as well!

I'm not done - what about workload? The helicopter pilot is normally the "company man" on the job. Therefore, they must not only be able to fly the aircraft, they have to be the local PR man with the customer, often solving the customer's problems so the aircraft is used the most efficiently. The helicopter pilot might have to arrange for his own fuel and even refuel his own aircraft. He checks the landing sites, trains people how to work around helicopters without getting injured, and makes sure the aircraft does not disturb Grandma Bessie's chickens!

But wait, like the Ginsu knife, "there's more!" The rotor-head does it all. He does all the pre-flight planning, submits the flight plan, prepares all the paperwork including the weight and balance, loads and briefs the passengers, loads cargo, and after landing takes care of the unloading and finally arranges for their own transportation and room. This is often interspersed by telephone calls to some company weenie that changes plans and expectations every hour.

Finally, the all important question, "What about control touch?" I want to shut up all the hotshot fighter pilots. I've been in their aircraft and they have been in mine... I could fly theirs but they were all over the sky in mine! So then, Mr Starch Winger; when you see a Hughes 500 or Bell 206 pilot hold one skid on a 5000' knife edge ridge that is only two feet wide so passengers can step out onto the ridge, while the other skid is suspended in space... when you watch a Skycrane, Vertol, S61, 212, or 214B pilot place a hook, that's on a cable 200 feet below the aircraft, in the hand of a ground crewman... when you see a Lama, AStar, or Bell 206L land in a space in the trees that's scarcely bigger than the helicopter... and if you ever watch a BK 117, 105, or A109 pilot land in a vacant lot next to a busy freeway surrounded by power lines -at night... Well then, you'll have some idea who is the master manipulator of aviation equipment.

The bottom line is; if all you want is to get into the air, find a Cessna, Beech, F-16, or 757. However, if you want to truly fly, to be an artisan in aviation and develop a bird-like control touch; then, you want to be a helicopter pilot. After all, a rock would probably fly if you made it go 180 knots. The real question for our fixed wing brethren should be, "How fast can you fly backward?"
Any thoughts?

SASless
6th Dec 2004, 22:12
Amen,Brother!:ok:

John Eacott
6th Dec 2004, 22:37
Old carrier adage:

"It's easier to stop, then land, than to land, then stop" :cool:

oldpinger
7th Dec 2004, 04:00
Alternatively,
If you can't Hover- Don't Bother!! :ok:

bwm85
7th Dec 2004, 04:59
Helicopter pilots get it up faster.

Vfrpilotpb
7th Dec 2004, 06:07
Well put Heliport

"Heli Pilots have vertical hold"


Vfr;)

ShyTorque
7th Dec 2004, 07:54
All the girls know that happiness is a big chopper.

Pat Malone
7th Dec 2004, 19:25
Only fair to point out that we're much more modest than fixed-wing pilots, too.

Gomer Pylot
7th Dec 2004, 23:30
If you want to try a landing that will make you work, try landing on a vessel underway, making 15 knots or so, with a 25 knot wind astern, at night, so you have to approach from the front, making for a constantly steepening approach, with only a few lights on around the pad. Add some rain, heavy seas, and you can work up a sweat without ever having the heater on in January. An ILS to minimums (1/4 mile vis in a helicopter) is a piece of cake in comparison.

ShyTorque
7th Dec 2004, 23:37
Try hovering over the ship at night in 60 kt winds with a winchman on the wire and no visual reference except the top of the mast..... :}

autosync
7th Dec 2004, 23:39
I think its only fair to balance the equation.
Try reading Tales of an old aviator in the aviation nostalgia forum.
The most remarkable thread I have ever read.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117465

It nearly makes me respect Fixed wing pilots, nearly!

emergov
8th Dec 2004, 04:52
Fixed wing pilots have heard about flying, but are too afraid to try...

Staticdroop
8th Dec 2004, 08:18
Great post there is unfortunately the downside to being fantastic. Once i've finished a week of police, corporate transfers, air ambulance and training in 3 types of aircraft i sit down and look at the spoty FO with some low cost carrier who is not allowed to think or act outside his operations manual but still earns more than i do.
I would n't be anything other than a rotary man but where is the justice in this world.:confused:

CyclicRick
8th Dec 2004, 20:47
My goodness aren't we wonderful...do you mind if I print this one out and show it to my boss the next time I ask for a sufficient wage? :{

Tokoloshe
8th Dec 2004, 23:03
A good topic. I have to confess that flying one of those Airbus wobble-daggers is the closest I have ever come to true brain-death. It's no wonder I have to keep flying helos to preserve my sanity.:ugh:
The true injustice is that financially there is no comparison

keithl
9th Dec 2004, 08:56
Well I once got a Jet Provost into a jetstream (small 'j' = wind, not aircraft) and managed 35 kts backwards.

212man
9th Dec 2004, 09:03
Ah, but Keith, you are an honorary rotorhead!

keithl
9th Dec 2004, 09:44
Gosh, I say! - thank you very much!!

edited to add "Gosh", as it seemed appropriate...

Paul McKeksdown
9th Dec 2004, 13:09
From what I remember of the JP it must have been a very slow jetsream :}

Constant speed, variable noise:p

Many a happy weather cx.

bellfest
10th Dec 2004, 00:56
Just like Kenworths were built to keep f@*#wits out of Macks, Fixed Wings were built to keep f@*#wits out of helicopters. Excluding Mustangs & Mig29's!

offshoreigor
27th Dec 2004, 21:03
Hi All,

I often wonder what Fixed Wing Pilots would do if they really had to use their "Hands and Feet" I guess they would have to spit out the gum!

OldPinger (ASW?) My hat is off to you for being sooooo politically correct with your update on the old phrase!

Cheers,

:ok: OffshoreIgor :ok:

Old Skool
27th Dec 2004, 22:12
helicopter pilots are far superior...

how plank flyers even dare to wear wings is beyond me, i took a couple of hours in a C172 for fun and to practice some instrument approaches. Man they are so easy, they just kind of trundle along all on their own, i guess they have to, as the pilot can see next to naf all, what with all the dash-board and wing in the way.

The landings are no problem, although i will say the first was a little hard but the rest were smooth as you like...

We had to take along the CFIs dog, i wasn't sure why but every time he touched a control it gave him a good bite...

DennisK
28th Dec 2004, 06:30
Helicopter rear speed limits.

Not sure if any factual info is wanted on the subject, but as its post Christmas and I'm full of mince pies ... can I add some actual numbers to the discussion.

The PFM's stopped quoting actual 'crosswind/rearward' limits a while ago, (probably due to an accident below the quoted numbers and a legal claim) so these days they simply declare that the machine in question has been 'demonstrated at ....? (usually circa 17 knots)

Having looked into the situation we all appreciate the rearward 'disc flapping' limit where the cyclic reaches the rearward limiting stops and further airspeed increase simply tucks the nose down with no further aft control movement available to correct.

This assumes the pilot retains an approximate horizontal 'flapped back' disc attitude with translational/then transitional airflow acting conventionally. I've found in my display routine, that a firmer aft movement of cyclic before translational effect kicks in results in a pronounced change of disc attitude (nose well up and T/R down) to the point where the further transitional flow is replaced by an 'induced' airflow so that the disc no longer 'flaps.' In this attitude perhaps 90% of the flow is now through the disc and the actual limit is only the available collective (power) and speed at which the drag equals the thrust. Anti torque pedal control is significantly INCREASED !! We've all seen the Antarctic Chinook's attitude as it pulls through the ice !!

I know that Charlie Zimmerman and Herman Fuchs had 'rearward reading' ASI's on their B105's for their 1986 Championship routines and I'd quite like one for the Enstrom/Hughes.

The best I have is a GPS reading and subtract the known wind but I have seen a 75knot indication along the crowd line downwind. As 2005 will be my last display year, I'm hoping some younger 'guns' will take up the display scene soon and no doubt investigate the numbers further.

Good wishes to all ppruners for 2005.

The Scout
28th Dec 2004, 08:54
Dennisk

Blimey! Please don't retire until I've had a chance to see your display live. Have you any venues/dates for the diary in 2005.

The Scout

DennisK
4th Jan 2005, 17:59
Hi Scout ....

Don't have much booked for 2005 other than the Blenheim Palace event in August, Glenn's Kemble Heli Show and of course the Shoreham RAFA. A few other shows usually pop up though, possibly Rougham at Bury St Edmunds. The North Weald event isn't happening this year.

If there is to be a 'freestyle' at the heli champs in August, I will try to get an entry.

Jeremy is working on a display DVD at present with several recent displays and an 'all interior' section of the 2004 RAFA routine. We are hoping it might be good enough to sell for around ten quid plus ..... with all the proceeds going to my helicopter scholarship for youngsters.

The scholarship committee have short listed three youngsters for the 2005 scholarship and I'm hoping Ian MacGregor at Fast will agree to give them an 'aptitude' test in February to select the winner.

Good flying everyone and God bless all the Tsunami heli fliers.

SASless
5th Jan 2005, 05:01
I did fly most of an ILS in rearward flight.... on a GCA which coincided with the ILS to the runway at Malpensa International located not far from the Agusta factory.

Doing repeated circuits in a Chinook with Libyan students....doing one ILS after another...got bored finally...started doing GCA's ....one after another...got further bored....bad situation for a helicopter pilot. Passed the outer marker...went a bit further....doing a picture perfect GCA (remember the ILS was identical to the GCA) and when....like a vision...it appeared to me...that the GCA controller was as bored as I was....and as clear as could be....it dawned upon me the exact way to cure that problem. At about 800 feet AGL....and about one NM out from the runway , I gradually decelerated the aircraft to a hover....all the time getting that repetitive on-course....on glide slope call from Luigi. Then....I began to hover rearwards at an accelerating pace.....maintaining course and glideslope.....until almost at 60 knots or so.....

The patter from the GCA controller kinda broke down for a second...then there was a very long pause....and I heard in a very awake Italian voice...."Mama Mia! Provo 65...you are a-going a-backwards!"

:ok:

Decks
5th Jan 2005, 10:04
Sorry folks but happen to believe that this thread is utter pap filled drivellous sh*te. Much as I love flying helicopters for a living and much pride as I have in the work that I do (SAR), I do not feel the need to knock or look down on anyone else to be happy with myself or my skills. Frankly the biggest wart on this professions ar*e is the professional snobbery and arrogance of its insecure "professionals". Couldnt give a f**k who considers themselves to be better or the best... it matters zilch!!!

Remember... most power is weakness dressed up as strength. If someone feels to need to tell you that they have done this that or the other, or flown x y or z in order to create the image of themselves that they want you to have, then you have to ask why?????

The vast majority of "average" or ordinary or even cr*p pilots manage just fine so save your superiority complexes for something meaningful you have done!

keithl
5th Jan 2005, 10:28
Uncalled for, Decks!
It's just a bit of fun, after all. As a plank flyer working with rotorheads I expect a bit of banter. The biggest pain of all is people who take themselves too seriously. In this case, that's you, not the earlier contributors!