Eastern Pilots walk from AFAP

[jakethemuss]

I have it on good authority that the Eastern Pilots have formed their own representative organisation the "Eastern Pilot's Group" and have advised the AFAP that they no longer require their services with regards representation.

Obviously everything in the garden is not rosy, and the boys (and girls) have decided to look elsewhere to meet their needs. There are not too many other associations around, are there?

I hope that the other body currently thinking about who will represent them takes into account this major shift by a once extremely pro AFAP group of pilots and asks what could possibly be the problem.

Time to unite under the Qantas Group Pilot's Union.

[Kaptin M]

Good Luck.........................suckers!!

[jakethemuss]

Care to elaborate on your suckers statement M.

You are living in Vietnam, I am sure leading a fantastic life, but you know only what you read and hear of the scene in this country. Tell me again, why are you living in Vietnam?

Your loyalty soldier is inspirational, but there comes a time to realise that the battle is lost and new battles require new strategies. Your adversary Oldmeadow is still alive, fat and well and raking in $m whilst screwing your fellow professionals in this country.

Focus on the real enemy! Those that know not what we do, who are tucked up in bed whilst we do an ILS to CatIII minima with their family on board.

This is the best thing for Qantas Group Pilots and if enough good men commit to the cause we will make sure that this is a profession worth aspiring to. Unite Qantas Group Pilots, Unite.

[robroy]

Sounds like jakethehero to me,

Cheers

robroy

[jakethemuss]

Robroy,

No, not a hero in the sense that you use the word, nor in fact any other sense. Just a realist, not caught up in events of 15 years ago, trying to make sure that the profession of Airline Pilot remains well remunerated and respected by those who would seek to relegate it to the "glorified bus driver" status.

By having a group of pilots unite I don't see what threat that poses to you. There are young guys and girls with 40 year careers in the ranks and I would personally like to see them all have the benefit of access to all opportunities and as a result see the path towards a rewarding career in this country.

Is that such a threat to you that you feel it necessary to snipe?

[Kaptin M]

Let's talk about the old bull, and the young bull, jake....but first, let's take a few things, point-by-point.
No "one-ups-manship" - just pilot to pilot stuff...

Since 1989, I have ELECTED to remain a member of The Federation - in spite of all the cr@p the "non-returnees" have thrown up.
Me - along with EVERYONE else with whom I have stayed in contact.

Why? Well, I guess the loss of licence (lol) has played a big part in that - yes, the AFAP offers THE best lol for any pilot member.
But apart from that, we all realise that The Federation is run BY professional pilots, FOR professional pilots, with the help of a minimal, salaried staff.

In other words, The Federation heads in the direction in which PILOT MEMBERS direct it.
Oldmeadow is still alive, fat and well and raking in $m whilst screwing your fellow professionals in this country. Oldmeadow is an Industrial Relations "quack", imho.
His "strategies" in 1989, sent ALL of the airlines involved to the wall.
What brains does it take, to tell your employees, "Here is a contract - take it, or leave it. If you don't accept it, there are hundreds who will."
And then have the luxury of seeing your company lose MILLIONS of dollars, as you wait for people to sign up?

Yes, the positions will eventually be filled - but the old adage of "You get what you pay for." was never more true today, than ever.

The MOST profitable periods for the airlines, were when the employees were HAPPY doing their BEST, and WILLING to GIVE MORE for NOTHING, if required.
The companies prospered - the employees were happy, if not slightly UNDER-paid.

Can anyone employed by an airline in Australia say that that code of work ethics applies today?

And THAT is where you are at, jake - I believe.
(I don't think Cat iii applies in Oz though).

The AFAP's strength is in its membership, and their input.
The QANTAS pilots' union has not shown any real nous, nor the guts to confront the obvious assault on them, by the continual formation of new companies, and the erosion of QANTAS in the longer term, imho.

imo, QANTAS has/is been used to provide a (fantastic) source of revenue for the CEO and the shareholders over the past several years. I believe its longer term viability is seriously in doubt, once GOD departs!
You might unite under the QF flag NOW, but be prepared to be shattered in another 4-5 years if you do, imo!

[jakethemuss]

Thanks for the reply M.

Your opinion is noted.

BTW QF Pilots have the best LOL scheme in Australia. Paid for by the pilots in a round about way.

AIPA is run by Qantas Group Pilots, for Qantas Group Pilots.

P.S. You can provide no industrial AFAP muscle whilst living in an Asian country. Reality is your master.

P.P.S. The AFAP sanctioned the lowest wages ever in this country for B737 Jet a\c with the VB deal and we have all been compared to it since.

[spinout]

Being over there you are some what out of the loop maybe…

The AFAP is a pilot body representing pilots but I think the industrial offers employed by them have let them down, the AFAP have just become a rubber stamp for industrial agreements. They have stood by and supported the downward spiral of wages and conditions.

The EPG will be able to seek the best available Industrial advice and the members are free to join what ever union best suits them, obviously it is better for the group if the majority are all members of the same union and in this day and age the Union that represents all the pilots at a particular company has less conflict of interest….

I understand that some have maintained a minimal membership of the AFAP so as to keep their Loss of License with the MBF as well as joining another union.

[Kaptin M]

Being over there you are some what out of the loop maybeWith today's technology, I think there are probably a lot of pilots living in Australia, who are more "out of the loop" than many of those offshore (not to mention that good old Aussie trait of apathy, possessed by some).
They have stood by and supported the downward spiral of wages and conditions. Funny - I thought the Virgin Blue pilots, represented by the AFAP, received reasonable improvements at the renewal of their last CA.

But still, if you guys feel you have the support of the majority, and can squeeze more from your employer than the professional, skilled, and experienced staff employed by the AFAP, then go ahead!!

The AFAP sanctioned the lowest wages ever in this country for B737 Jet a\c with the VB deal and we have all been compared to it since. I believe the Federation obtained the best deal available for the pilots, at that time.
What would YOU have done, jake? Told Branson that you wouldn't allow pilots to fly for his new start-up unless he upped the conditions?
No prizes for guessing which finger you would have been shown, and where he would have told you to go!!

[jakethemuss]

M,

The other two Airlines in operation in Australia at the time were/are paying their Captains around $200k plus to operate B737 equipment.

The AFAP secured the pilots around $115k plus a little. This has increased over time, but so has the others. You say that the Pilots had to accept 50% less as the best deal possible! Please don't ever offer to negotiate on my behalf.

The big problem however is that by doing that deal, the rest of the pilots in the country were instantly considered overpaid and the race to the bottom began in earnest.

You talk a lot about what you guys did in 89 and how it was to protect and enhance the profession. Whilst admiring your absolute loyalty to the organisation that presided over the worst thing to happen to Pilots in this country, I think it is time to see that in the interests of all Qantas Group Pilots, this is the best result.

[SilverSleuth]

Have watched these forums for many years and finally thought it was time to add something in regards to this topic.

Kaptin M : LIke obviously you, I have been in the AFAP for many many years and for me it is only the lol. My oppinion is obviously very different to yours in how relevent the AFAP has been in the past, but hey I respect thats your views and thats not what I am here to debate. What I can add is what is FACT in terms of the situation in regards to DJ who I am with:

Firstly you said the DJ guys got reasonable improvements on the last CA. Not true. INfact nearly everyone here was bitterly disappointed and disillusioned from the representaion from Terry O.
There is a massive consistant perception that TO has a huge conflict of interest with the current management.

At the last EBA he brought to US at the FIRST meeting what the company offered and said "this is the best you can get I suggest you take it". THIS IS FACT ALSO. there was no private meetings with the pilot body on what to take to THE COMPANY from us. There was no reject and go back to the comany several times.

Since then every issue has been very very ammatureish chats on our behalf to the company. The most recent and notible the PAcific Blue Issue and International flying. Again the so called urgent meeting was a friendly piss up lunch with the old boys and an acceptance from him of OH well thats the best we can get.

So why say all this. Well with the next EBA quickly approaching the pilot body here seems to be gaining momentum for a seperate body if he and the AFAP fail miserably again. (like eastern)

Like you KAptain M, I was many many years ago a very pro AFAP member, and after nearly 18 years membership feel I have a right to have a say. (and yes I have conveyed these thoughts to T O'C). But the whole point is that If the the AFAP is to survive they/he must start representing there pilots in a proper way.
You cannot have someone who is on an ansett 727 Captain wage and best mates with the management here, effectively negotiating for us. That is a huge conflict of interest.

The AFAP is losing it relevence through its lack of action and conflict rep. You may disagree, thats fine as this isnt a go at you, but at least in this company they are. And once 15 - 20 members leave well that effects the lol funds and hence all of us directly.

[SKYCAMEL]

Well Said Silver!

I agree totally with your observations. And I can say, that this is the FEDS last chance to show us what they are made of. The only reason 80% of VB pilots are members, is for the LOL. This I have a feeling will change at the next EBA (the LOL payment), and then many will leave the AFAP and a VB Pilots Association will be born.:ok:

[Hugh Jarse]

SilverSleuth wrote:At the last EBA he brought to US at the FIRST meeting what the company offered and said "this is the best you can get I suggest you take it".

This is exactly the same style of advice that was given to the EAA pilot group on the last few EBAs. The pilot group chose to take further action last time around...

Is this what you pay your 1% for? The Pilot Councils do the majority of the work for very little in return (and are more effective than the AFAP has been). I would prefer to give my 1% to them!

Unions are just like any other service. If it doesn't perform to customer expectations, then the customer reserves the right to change service providers, or have none at all....It's called freedom of association.

And as has been previously mentioned - The only reason many members stay is for the MBF insurance.

Judging by the general feeling and overwhelmingly positive response to the proposal, even the MBF may not be enough to keep people in AFAP membership.

We have interesting times ahead:E

[wayne_king]

Can someone please explain to me why anybody in Eastern should have any loyalty to the AFAP. What is their track record?

'89: i think it's safe to say that could have probably gone a little better.

Mid 90's Qantas integration: that one didn't go so well. Rather than fostering a good relationship with all parties to achieve a great outcome for their customers(Eastern pilots) it was decided it would be better to hire Dennis Denuto and run a court case based on the vibe and mabo. Unlike the Castle, however,Dennis lost this case.

Southern Closure: Gee, great outcome for 146 pilots there. Either an abmissmal redundancy or back to the Dash. Wonder what would have happened if those jet pilots had been AIPA members?

A string of no gain EBA's, until finally at the last one some younger Eastern blokes got in and stirred them up, forcing them kicking and screaming not to accept the first offer the company made.

And finally commending to the pilots the first jet opportunity deal the Company comes up with, which actually limits the numbers of people allowed to leave Eastern and go to Jet*. How's that meant to be any good?

Don't forget also the AFAP are out there representing all manner of other pilots willing to do Eastern's flying for less. What if a 400 comes along. The NJS blokes are going to put a bid in using the AFAP as their reps. Do the Eastern guys have any chance of the best representation possible if their Industrial advisors are also representing competitors?

It seems pretty clear the only reason the bulk of people are with the AFAP is for the MBF. Well if a better alternative should present itself for loss of licence they're going to be struggling to keep the Eastern crew. Why, because they simply don't have the runs on the board to say "stay with us we've done so much for you". I think you'd be really struggling to find anyone who thinks the AFAP staff is chocked full of "experienced, professionals". They certainly haven't demonstrated those qualities in a very long time.:(

[Agent Mulder]

So,

If Loss of Licence Insurance is the key, maybe there is available to pilots a bulk purchased product which is better than the MBF. Realistically the AFAP have had a bit of a monopoly on this in the past, in Australia, with their members and where is the drive to remain competitive.

Would that conflict with the in house product?

The MBF was set up in a time when Pilots couldn't be insured due to the nature/risk of the profession. However we are far healthier as a demographic than before and our aeroplanes (this one's for you pullock) are better maintained and more reliable. By all accounts there are many millions tied up in this scheme and the thought of winding up the scheme with the remaining members (75% to fold I believe) and make rich men of some is deemed unconscionable.

Time to transfer the assets to AusAlpa for the benefit of all, or sell the building and divide the spoils amongst the “MANAGEMENT”.

[rescue 1]

Interesting debate.

Does the answer rest with switching representation? I'm not sure.

Pilot Councils or AFAP or any other Pilot or worker representatives are only going to be as successful as the management want it to be. Southwest signed a ten year agreement with their Pilots because they had trust in each other. Unfortunately since '89, there has been a move towards a management that does not trust there staff, and not want to develop and foster a culture of moving forward together.

As the good Kaptain M said "The MOST profitable periods for the airlines, were when the employees were HAPPY doing their BEST...". This is partly true as this was a time when yield management was realistic and reflected a realistic price to travel. It is however proven where company staff are trusted and included in an open management style continue to go from strength to strength.

To claw back conditions does it mean a repeat of '89? Are Aussie Pilots prepared for this style of hard line approach?

[Sperm Bank]

Rescue. In simple terms NO! At Virgin we had an opportunity to tell the feds what we thought of the current process, money, flight and duty times, family friendly rostering etc. LESS than half of the pilots responded. This is very typical of the GUTLESS attitude of todays generation of pilots. They whinge like mad when away on overnights and down at the pub, but when it comes to having the intestinal fortitude to speak up...NOTHING. Some may say we work too hard and were too tired to fill out the survey....RUBBISH.

The EBA is coming up and unless there is a major change of attitude, they can expect more of the same. Our deputy CEO made $6.15 million last year (from virgin), but they want us to exercise restraint.

It is not about being mindless and militant, but it is about being given a fair go. Some young blokes today just don't have the balls to stand up for principles.

[Pinky the pilot]

Sperm Bank; Your last paragragh was well put! I am an AFAP member albeit unemployed and live two hours drive from Ypad. I try to attend the SA branch meetings whenever possible and the last few could have been held in a 'phone booth!
The most I have ever seen was four attendees and only one was employed!:(

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

[grrowler]

Sperm,

Some young blokes today just don't have the balls to stand up for principles.

It's some of the young blokes at Eastern who are saying enough and bringing about the changes, I think if you have a look at history it seems there are shrivelled aggots in all age-brackets.

[Interceptor]

SilverSleuth

Agree with your post as it is accurate and factual !

Terry O can rest assured that he is on notice to perform and do the job that he is being paid to do at the next VB EBA. There is a lot of unrest amongst the VB troops (fatiguing rosters/minimal pay) and the general feeling is that this is his last chance to earn his pay.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

GGrowler. I would have to agree. Some of the Ballsiest pilots I have worked with are " Young Blokes". Ahhhhhh to be 25 years younger!

I think the same dillema is about to befall the Feds in regards to the upcoming ballot at Jetstar. 89 negativity and scare tactics just dont work these days. I guess at some stage the federation has to be able to justify the 1% charge.

Sperm bank, I dont think pricipals automatically come with age. This has unfortunately been shown time and time again in Australian aviation.

Regards DM

[spinout]

I understand the Eastern Pilots Group was formed to put Eastern Pilots in charge of their destiny, not some outdated Sub Branch/ State Branch system run by pilots and industrial offers out of touch with the majority.
The AFAP, AIPA and TWA are all service providers and as such we are free to choose who for us will provide the best service, it is not about leaving the AFAP its about choice….
The EPG will be for their members (the majority of pilots with Eastern) seek to get the best EBA they can.
The AFAP have stated as long as they have one member they have the right to attend EBA discussions, that would apply to AIPA and the TWU if they had members and a little competition from competing unions might make for an interesting EBA.
:cool:

[CubaLibre]

I have to agree, with the general comments about the AFAP, to weak and to much conflict of interest.

The young guys in VB are going to wake up one day and realise that their commands are not going to happen "tomorrow" in fact I was told recently by the powers to be it could be up to a year before the next commands come up.

Thats (in my opinon) if the mutual recognition bill doesn't pass (fat chance) if it does then the VB boys will be well and truely screwed.

Good luck to the eastern guys/girsl

[Icarus2001]

Which mutual recognition bill are you referring to?

[CubaLibre]

The one which means that any New Zealand company will be recognised in Australia without passing any Australian regulatory tests. or something close to that.

What it means is that we'll be forced to compete with the lower NZ wages


bad bad bad

[TurbTool]

So let me see if I understand this.

Young Eastern guys upset cause
(a) don't have a command in 3 seconds,
(b) Don't make $200,000.00 plus a year flying a Dash 8,
(c) Don't have "Right" to progress to QF or Jetstar on seniority including start date
(d) etc etc etc

Virgin Guys, many of whom got jet commands in super quick time compared to predecessors in aviation in Australia,
(a) knew the terms and conditions existing at time of employment but accepted employment nonetheless
(b) happily worked for those conditions knowing it would contribute to the demise of Ansett
(c) now want Qantas salaries or better
(d) now want time at home or "lifestyle
(e) etc etc etc

but both groups want someone else to magically make it happen for them without them actually having to go to "war" or back up their union or even turn up to meetings or make constructive suggestions.

But both willing to go it on their own.

Bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha.

I'm sorry, Bwah ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha.

Sorry again.

[grrowler]

turbTOOL,

Young guys at Eastern (all ppl there really) knew the conditions when they started. What they are trying to do, rather than sit around slagging people for having a go, is improve those conditions. Maybe you should try it some time...

[Sperm Bank]

Tubo and Ibex. What a remarkable grasp on the English language you both have. Obviously both of you are not remotely aware of the promises that were made to pilots on joining in the first year or so.

Better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you are an idiot, rather than open your mouth and prove it!

[Woomera]

PPRuNe has received an email from the AFAP. In the interests of fairness, the relevant sections are as follows:

“…..we are concerned about some of the allegations being made are not consistent with your protocol about fact the examples being accusations against staff of the AFAP being in 'piss up meetings' and 727 check pilot salary. It is understood that Pprune is a rumour network but equally when casting aspersions against individuals a little fact should actually get in the way of a good rumour. It goes without saying the above and a number of other silly statements are clearly and fully denied.”

Threads of this nature, which canvass broad spectrum opinion and debate from professional pilots on matters of wide common interest, are encouraged by PPRuNe.

However, personal allegations, rumours and aspersions are unnecessary, are not permitted on PPRuNe and merely detract from professional debate.

Please refrain from comment about individuals and adhere to the thread topic.

Woomera

[Gnadenburg]

Sperm Bank

Can you elaborate on those first year promises?

Sadly, for many Virgin pilots, it is too hard to draw a line in the sand and fight to improve their conditions.

It is easier to flock to Eithad, Emirates and Dragonair interviews.

Attrition in the Virgin Blue pilot group, will not improve pilot conditions, as training costs are absurdly and willingly paid by a new joiner.

Airline Pilot conditions in Australia are the RESPONSIBILITY of the Virgin and Jetstar pilots. They have thrust these conditions on everyone else and only they as a pilot group can fix it.

It is ironic too, the very airlines that these low cost pilots from Australia seek to join, are using Australian low cost conditions of service as an assault on their own pilot group. Again, wake up VB and J* pilots!

A little birdy told me that two of the aforementioned airlines had a 100% failure of VB pilots on interview last month- 10 candidates. Again, wake up, you are competing with hundreds of pilots from Low Cost carriers all around the world; who foolishly believe paying for jet training and accepting poor pay a means to an end. Prepare yourself- Virgin Blue experience is not that special.

[TurbTool]

grrowler,

not slagging people for having a go.

Slagging people for slagging other people who have a go but unable to magically produce the goods without backup from the troops.

I think this thread is a windup because the Eastern pilots haven't walked from the AFAPat this stage from what I have seen, merely a few guys encouraging them to walk. There hasn't been any formal gauging of support or a vote even to form the so called EPG.

Not that the formation of such a group would bother me, if that is what the guys want and think they can make it work, go for it and good luck. It will take a lot more involvement from the troops than they have been willing to give for some time thats all. IMHO.

Sorry Sperm Bank,

unable to tell from your post what you mean. Possibly that Virgin pilots were promised something and that promise wasn't fulfilled after the sellout to new part owner. Was there any agreement ?(in writing) or just an undertaking to still love and respect you in the morning.

But if it makes you feel good to attack me personally for posting an opinion, I am happy to have helped.

[Interceptor]

Re AFAP email:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“…..we are concerned about some of the allegations being made are not consistent with your protocol about fact the examples being accusations against staff of the AFAP being in 'piss up meetings' and 727 check pilot salary. It is understood that Pprune is a rumour network but equally when casting aspersions against individuals a little fact should actually get in the way of a good rumour. It goes without saying the above and a number of other silly statements are clearly and fully denied.”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whether the allegations and rumours are true or not is irrelevent.

But the one fact that does remain true is that the VB pilots (AFAP members paying 1% of their gross annual salaries) are not happy and are entitled to the best possible representation at the approaching EBA.
Accepting and encouraging the first offer from the company as being the best offer won't gel this time around.

How pilots' conditions in this country have deteriorated to this sorry state could be debated forever. Regardless of what has happened it is never too late to try to reverse the situation.

[Beer Can Dreaming]

Gnadenburg.

Your little birdie was correct but the big birdie told me personally that in the batch of interviews previously they accepted 2 out of 29 Virgin Blue candidates.

The question we must ask ourselves is why are all of these people leaving, unless they saw VB as just a stepping stone or a way to a quick command so they can go elsewhere.