Hero pilot or?

[Vfrpilotpb]

This afternoon is not really a flying day up here in good ole North West of England, in fact its such a manky day I have resorted to clearing up around the graden.

Dark grey clouds, down to about 400 to 500 ft , hills around going up to 1400 ft wind at roughly NorthWesterly 25 to 30 Knts,...

When lo, what this I hear, it cant be, yes it, a Robbie R22 flying just below the grey stuff rapidly dissapearing and then comming back into view as the grey cotton wool envelopes the heli going in an Easterly direction, 1.5 miles further small hills go up to about 680/730 ft,

What a day to be sweeping up!!

Vfr

[MK10]

my house is at 1100 ft on the edge of the Cairngorms, so we
are often just under or around the cloud base. there is rising
ground on all but one side, up to 4000 ft. yet helis often run
thro the glen[valley] just under the cloud base, i assume they
are under commercial pressure to get somewhere? cause i dont
see any pleasure in that.

[Banjo]

You can only get away with it for so long. Sooner or later we will all end up reading about such pilots in the crash comics.

[Auto Relight]

You guys make 500ft ceilings sound like a death trap. Out here in North Western Canada, days like what you describe are often the norm, with many days being much much worse.

Flying in low weather and high winds is an aquired skill, just like any other facet of the industry. To illustrate this, you should try the Alaska Panhandle some time. With 500 OC and 2 SM there is more traffic than you can shake a stick at, much of it fixed-wing. When you start getting aroun 200 OC and 1 SM or less, things start to quiet down, but there is always some out - you'd never get anyting done otherwise.

I am in no way advocating flying in weather that is below your personal limits, but 3/4 SM in the moutnains is just what you are dealt some days, and when you're 50+NM from roads and civilization, you do what you need to get the job done. Of course you MUST use discretion when evaluating whether or not to continue, but please understand that what may seem crazy to you, is the norm for others.

AR

[ShyTorque]

Auto Relight,

The description was: "rapidly disappearing and then comming back into view as the grey cotton wool envelopes the heli"

Not quite the same as remaining VMC below a low-ish cloudbase in an unstabilised heli.

[Auto Relight]

Well, can't speak for Britain, but here 1/2sm clear of cloud is the rule.

Can you tell me that a guy on the ground has the proper perspective to judge what the pilot is seeing from the cockpit? No way. Don't condem a person unless you have all the information, and as far as I can tell, unless you were in the machine, you don't have all the information.

I'm not trying to be confrontational at all here, but judging someone else's actions is thin ice, that's all I'm saying.

AR

[Vfrpilotpb]

Hey Auto R

Chill a bit man, what you have to read is the R22 bit, in the UK this is purely a pleasure(?) machine, and when another Pilot looks up and sees that little bubble dissappear and then reappear whilst only 1.5 miles from known hidden rising ground thats surely the time to do either a 180 or land.

I take exactly what you mean about the pressure of work when you are a CPL, but you also then have kit that would get you home in many serious cloud?Wx situations.

Up here we live in clouds most of the winter months, and knowing the spots to look for gives me a fairly better than average guess at the cloudbase.

I hope the pilot got home ok, had it been me, I'd be in the old Land Rover!

Vfr;)

[MightyGem]

This afternoon is not really a flying day up here in good ole North West of England
Hey Peter, nothing below 3000' in this part of the North West. We've hardly stopped all day...3h 20m. :ok:

[FixedRotaryWing]

In UK helicopters may fly VFR in class D or E airspace at or below 3000ft provided that they remain clear of clouds and in sight of the surface. This means visibility may be near 0 and you are still legal. Whether this is also safe is another story...

[XT244]

Forget ceiling and visibility.

All I do read in the entry-posting:

1. "hills around"
2. "25 to 30 Knts"
3. "R22"

Please, make a simple combination .... and no comment ist required about.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Good morning Mighty,

That because your down on the flat lands and chasing all the Crims from Scouseland:ok:

Vfr

[B Sousa]

300' and 1/4 mi Vis = Alaskan Summer

[helicopter-redeye]

call me over-cautious if you will....

Perhaps we can call you "wise" instead.



This is a dangerous area. Read the AAIB report of another Robinson that did'nt make it home in this area and in similiar conditions.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_avsafety/documents/page/dft_avsafety_500215.hcsp

The relevant bit in the conclusion is:-

As they approached deteriorating weather conditions, at a reported height of 600 feet, the R44 was seen to turn to the left and then enter cloud. If the commander had been certain of his position at this time it is unlikely that he would have turned to the left, towards high ground, when a turn to the right would have kept him over low lying, relatively flat terrain.

Sounds rather similiar to what Peter saw.







NB the weather in Yorkshire was good as well. We export all the bad stuff to the Pendleites.

[Gaseous]

I live not too far from Peter and what he saw is common here. I regularly see helos in awful conditions. I think part of the problem is the nearest TAF is Blackpool which can be totally unrepresentative at Darwen. I was caught out by this some time ago- frightened me to death.

Nearly all my hours are over the Lancashire hill country. The place needs to be treated with respect. There is more to met than the nearest TAF being OK.

[SASless]

Excuse me.....the last time I checked helicopters had the ability to slow down and even hover prior to or while making a 180 degree turn. There is an old American helicopter concept known as hover mosey that works a charm in "bad" weather.

One hovers over a spot one can land on....and when you can see another spot that is suitable for landing....you mosey over there and hover some more. Repeat this process often and one can actually get somewhere safely in the most inclement weather.

Why would a helicopter fly into cloud in the daylight.....going way too fast for visibility if that happens.

[Gaseous]

SASless,
I absolutely agree. The point is that the geographic area in question seems likely to make such techniques a requirement for the unwary. Both Peter and I have seen lots of helicopters in this area flying in borderline conditions. I'm sure none of the pilots involved planned it or were happy with it if they ended up in cloud. There have been other threads relating to the same problem here.

"Why would a helicopter fly into cloud in the daylight.....going way too fast for visibility if that happens."

I take it this has never happened to you. The answer is that the pilot was probably flying just below the cloudbase and didn't see it coming. He may or may not have been pushing his luck. It is difficult to understand how this can happen until it happens to you.

Like Peter, I stay at home if it looks dodgy.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Good morning HR,

The R44 you mention was purely down to P1 bad decision, the people were desparate to get back to the midlands, and as the Wx at EGNH can be totally different than say 15 miles away, even after a very experienced Senior CPL advised against flying , they still did, very sadly for them the rest as they say is history.

The thing is, the part of the hill that met them in the cloud was only another 30/40 ft high before they would have cleared it.
Very sad,

Bad decision on the ground can be fatal in the air!

Vfr

[[email protected]]

Flying along in the base of the cloud is a crap idea at the best of times but coupled with rising ground and turbulence (given the wind and terrain) it is even more stupid.
Inadvertant IMC in an R22 is not a clever thing to do but a slight updraught when you are scudding along at the cloud base could cause exactly that.
What are your chances of seeing and avoiding other traffic even though you are legally COCISOS? What about someone letting down through cloud on a radar or procedural service (or some made-up procedure using GPS)- you're not going to get much warning of their arrival.
The GA answer will be that it is legal and you are trying to keep to the 500' rule rather than illegally low fly - what about turning round and going home or landing at an alternate site?
As another poster highlighted - this sort of flight profile often leads to a statistic.

[helicopter-redeye]

If I recall correctly, just below the cloud base would be the best place for carb iceing to occur as well??

:8