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Rollingthunder
1st Dec 2004, 23:32
Courts have gone belly-up and hundreds if not thousands of folks are out their deposits or full payments.

Seems in the UK it is normal to buy furniture and expect delivery in a month or two.

Not normal here. "I like that sofa. Is it in stock?"
"Yes sir" "Can you deliver tomorrow?" "No?" "How about the day after?" "Yes?" "Fine, here's the money".

Now this is not absolutely guaranteed to prevent getting ripped off by a bankruptcy the next day but it's a damn sight better than your system. Why do you put up with this crap?

Onan the Clumsy
2nd Dec 2004, 00:33
That's nothing. In Texas, they have immediate delivery with two years, no interest, no payments.

Davaar
2nd Dec 2004, 00:50
I just asked for a case report from a law library in the UK. Sure enough they sent it, promptly, by fax, so I have no complaint. It runs to three pages. With it they sent a covering note: "Invoice to follow". I shall arrange the overdraft tomorrow.

A10 Thundybox
2nd Dec 2004, 00:53
Gosh, never saw that coming...:ugh:

Actually 'tis a tradition here to be ripped off, there have been any number of "furnature stores" doing this for as long as I have been around.

If your buying furniture then have it with you when you leave (big pockets or a van)

maggioneato
2nd Dec 2004, 07:28
We have to live up to the title of rip off Britain, we do seem to put up with anything here, as businesses seem to have a take it or leave it attitude, and cusomer service is non existent. We are actually surprised if we do get good service.

gingernut
2nd Dec 2004, 08:09
Just got a lovely leather 2 seater recliner from said Courts.

Reduced from 750 to 249.

Delivered next day for 12. A real bargain, and fits me and mrs g very nicely thank you.

Sorry if folks lost their money, but thats why we have the "Consumer Credit Act."

Pay by credit card, and let the lenders take the risk.

Its not rocket science.

eal401
2nd Dec 2004, 08:53
Pay by credit card, and let the lenders take the risk.
Why should I have to use a credit card to protect myself? Moreover, what do I use against being f**ked over by the credit card company?

gingernut
2nd Dec 2004, 09:13
what do I use against being f**ked over by the credit card company?


self restraint.

And people wonder why its a nanny state.

eal401
2nd Dec 2004, 09:42
And people wonder why its a nanny state.
So the state prevents credit card companies ripping people off? Gosh, I must have missed that.

I ask again (hopefully for a better response) why should I have to use a credit card to protect a high value purchase?

gingernut
2nd Dec 2004, 10:04
So the state prevents credit card companies ripping people off?


who's being ripped off ?

It's not that difficult to get some pretty good deals from the credit card companies. Its about choice.

You have the choice to shop at Court's, you have the choice to take the risk of buying from a bankrupt company, you have the choice to take that risk.

You have the choice to protect yourself by using a credit card, you have the choice to pay cash.

You have the choice to swap your credit cards around everytime the 0% rate increases. You have the choice to pay off your balance every month.

Or would you like someone to put it all on a plate for you?

eal401
2nd Dec 2004, 10:07
who's being ripped off ?
Write a credit card cheque or use a credit card for cash withdrawal, you'll soon find out!

I don't by the way, but plenty of people do without realising and get stung for charges they didn't expect. Of course it is all in the small print, but well hidden! Legally of course.

You have the choice to shop at Court's, you have the choice to take the risk of buying from a bankrupt company, you have the choice to take that risk.
Tut, all those stupid people who didn't forsee Court's going bust, what a bunch of morons eh? (that's sarcasm by the way)

Yet once more, I have to ask my question for a third time, why do I have to use a credit card for this protection, why is it not offered for all purchases regardless of the means of payment. Why, if I want that protection am I forced to use a means I have every right NOT to have chosen to possess?

Someone might get it!

gingernut
2nd Dec 2004, 10:18
I think it's a little unkind to call the people who chose to shop at Court's, morons.

They're people who elected to take the risk of shopping there. The smarter ones probably forsaw the risk, and used a simple, cheap way of covering that risk. (ie credit card).


I'm sorry if you think that I, "don't get it." I do.


why is it not offered for all purchases regardless of the means of payment.



I'm just wondering who's going to pay for such protection.....the tax payer? Now I wouldn't have much choice about that.

Biggles Flies Undone
2nd Dec 2004, 10:18
It's not exactly rocket science, eal.

Get a free credit card. Pay for the furniture with it. Pay the bill in full. No interest charge and no risk. Why do you expect the state or anyone else to cover you against risk when you can do it yourself for nothing?

For goods that are in stock, waving a credit card and offering cash will often get you a discount.

eal401
2nd Dec 2004, 10:44
So much for freedom of choice!

Tough sh*t if you don't want a credit card!

Kolibear
2nd Dec 2004, 11:13
That IS freedom of choice.

If you want the protection - get a credit card

If you don't the protection - don't get the card

eal401
2nd Dec 2004, 12:34
You only get protection if you choose to have something you might not want? Sorry, but I should not have to have a credit card to have my purchases protected.

That is pretty p*ss-poor freedom of choice.

Why did all of those here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4059717.stm

not have the right to have their money protected because they chose to pay by cash?

I'm not having a go at anyone here, but as consumer protection goes, this stinks.

SLFguy
2nd Dec 2004, 12:43
Most furniture purchases are made on credit agreements NOT credit cards.

DFS have become so successful beacause of this...

They don't make any furniture nor do they stock any furniture, (hence usual 12 week wait).

Punter gets 'Pay nothing for 2 years' deal from Finance house - DFS gets dosh from Finance House within 7 days and THEN and only THEN places the order with the supplier who bills him upon delivery.

Nice little earner....

under_exposed
2nd Dec 2004, 12:49
eal401, who would you like to see made liable for YOUR decision to lend a company money?

gingernut
2nd Dec 2004, 12:54
I bought with a credit card, so my issuer has joint liability, so I should be OK! (from the news report.


So there not all moron's.

eal401
2nd Dec 2004, 13:24
under_exposed, are you saying there should be no consumer protection at all? What next, if I buy a TV and it breaks down, it's my fault?

gingernut, so paying in cash or using a debit card makes someone a moron then?

gingernut
2nd Dec 2004, 13:32
Moron isn't a word I'd usually use in polite conversation such as this, perhaps I'll refrain from quoting your posts in future.

I'm still not sure as to who should pay for this so called "consumer protection." Who do you suggest ?

under_exposed
2nd Dec 2004, 13:40
Consumer protection is there to force the company to honour their side of an agreement, if they have gone bankrupt it cannot be enforced.
If you buy a TV that breaks down and both the shop and the manufacturer goes bankrupt then you will be stuffed.

eal401
2nd Dec 2004, 14:04
Marvellous. It's safer just not to buy anything then. Ever!

Davaar
2nd Dec 2004, 14:05
eal:
________________________
if I buy a TV and it breaks down, it's my fault?
________________________

No, not your fault.

But it is not my fault either, and I did not buy a TV, so why should I help mitigate your loss? Why should anyone? If you do not want the risk or the loss, do not buy the TV.

Of course, that is not attractive to you, nor to me if in my case it is, say, a house that I borrowed for and paid for and the builder quits on.

Bankruptcy is a way of distributing the losses and allowing the world to carry on. So is risk insurance. So is self-insurance. We can leave it that one suffers a big loss or many suffer smaller losses. The losses are still there, the money is not. It is a question of arithmetic and taking our choices.

A little time goes past, and the glass fills with water again.

eal401
2nd Dec 2004, 15:13
Why should anyone?
Well, the credit card companies do!

Maybe the banks could divert some of their hefty profits away from their director's pockets?

Biggles Flies Undone
2nd Dec 2004, 15:20
Do we need to post this in simpler terms, eal?

You have at your disposal the wherewithall to buy capital goods at no risk or cost to yourself. You moan that you don't want a credit card and why is the world so unfair and horrible to you.

Why not just play the system like any sensible person does and stop whinging?

P.S. the banks don't have a personal vendetta against you - it's just the way the way the world works these days....

gingernut
2nd Dec 2004, 15:44
Maybe the banks could divert some of their hefty profits away from their director's pockets?

at last, the penny has dropped. Isn't this what the consumer credit act does?

eal401
2nd Dec 2004, 15:58
BFU. What would you suggest for those with plenty of cash but no credit card due to credit rating?* Or do such people not matter and not have rights?

I only ask as you are obviously so much more clever than the rest of us. :rolleyes:

*Like my wife (who is a non UK citizen) who earns a wage but cannot even get a proper current account let alone a credit card. Or is that her fault too? :rolleyes:

SirToppamHat
2nd Dec 2004, 16:02
Wise words Biggles. I always buy significant items on credit card ([email protected] Visa). Pay off each month and enjoy the free protection. The credit card companies can afford this protection because they charge (2.5%?) on your purchases, but you pay the ticket price. Many of these cards also provides protection against accidental damage; Mrs Hat's dress was accidentally covered in red wine at Mess Function last year; cost more than 50, so Credit Card Company agreed to replace it if the stain didn't come out. Also, buy a product, find it cheaper elsewhere within 60 days (even if it's in a sale), and they will give you the difference back.

I agree that interest rates are extortionate on many cards, so I don't pay interest. I am also not so stupid as to buy 'additional protection' for electrical goods that imply they are almost certain to go wrong in the first 2 years of use. On one occasion (in a store which rhymes with vomit) I listened patiently to a sales assistant explain why it was important that I take out the additional cover for an item. The cost of repairs for this that and the other that could go wrong was truly scary. At this point I explained that as he had so little faith in the goods being sold, I was certainly not going to buy them, and I left without doing so ... great fun! Yet time again I see the gullible filling in the forms it makes me so annoyed!

Rip-off Britain is a result of us agreeing to be ripped-off! Bought a camera last weekend for 150 that was on sale in well-known store today for 234.

By the way, I once bought a suite from Courts. It was so badly made (compared to the one in the show room) that I had them come and collect it within 2 days as it was neither 'fit for purpose' nor 'as described'. If this was an example of their quality, I am not surprised they went bust.

Sorry for banging on ... I'll get my coat!

Biggles Flies Undone
2nd Dec 2004, 16:04
That's easy, eal - you stick it on your credit card. You trust your wife, don't you?

Lightchop
2nd Dec 2004, 16:05
eal , bet you are a proper barrel of laughs on a night out.... :zzz:

gingernut
2nd Dec 2004, 16:27
What would you suggest for those with plenty of cash but no credit card due to credit rating?* Or do such people not matter and not have rights?


they've got a right to freely shop where they like, and a right to exercise their caution before departing with their hard earned cash.

I'm still unsure as to who you expect to pay for this "consumer protection," you talk about.

Jerricho
2nd Dec 2004, 16:33
Eal, just a little curious, why this bug up your ass about protecting yourself with using credit cards to protect yourself when purchasing stuff. Do you use eBay/Paypal? Online shopping?

And, regarding the unfortunate situation where you wife hasn't been able to get a card, you've said "I still believe she should try and apply for a credit card, even if she never uses it.". Sure, it's good to try and get yourself a credit rating (been there, done that......twice!). I just don't get it.

gingernut
2nd Dec 2004, 16:52
eal no hard feeling, I like a poster who sticks to his gun's, even when they are wrong!

I'm off to recline on my Court's recliner.

Legislation's ok when it protect's the vulnerable.

Mr Chips
2nd Dec 2004, 23:20
Biggles you suggested that Eal401 stop whinging?

Chance would be a fine thing :rolleyes:

I wanted a sofa once. Went to a shop, chose one, asked if I could take it away. They looked at me like I was mad. I walked out, went to another store, collected it from their loading bay and took it home

The joys of owning a van!

eal401
3rd Dec 2004, 07:22
Ah well, my humble apologies for giving a toss about others! I was just interested to know others thoughts on the subject, now I am fully informed.

Lightchop, I don't believe I know you so am not going to emulate your comment.

Jerricho
3rd Dec 2004, 14:48
Ladies and Gentlemen, the toys are officially OUT of the pram :E

SLFguy
3rd Dec 2004, 16:09
By what means was the purchase of said pram expedited?

Flypro
3rd Dec 2004, 16:18
......and could the toys be returned for a refund ? (assuming the shop hasn't gone bust in the meantime!):hmm:

itchy kitchin
3rd Dec 2004, 16:29
I buy from the "Sofa King"

why?

His prices are Sofa King cheap :ok:

Stockpicker
3rd Dec 2004, 16:45
I suspect the real issue here is going to be the directors of the company - where the law can get involved is to make sure they cannot set up in business again to do this. Not at the office today so can't check but from memory, this is not the first time for these particular fellows.

Jerricho
3rd Dec 2004, 18:00
Refunds will be accepted between the hours of 1500 and 1505 every Tuesday. Proof of purchase receipts, bank account records and a signed affidavit will be required to be produced. Refunds will be given in a credit note that it valid for one day.

Should customers find themselves in any disagreement with these terms.......tough.

Davaar
3rd Dec 2004, 19:02
I think you have not been in Canada long enough, Jerricho, to observe the local customs. It appears to me, with respect, that there are two systems of commercial law in Canada: men's and women's.

Men's is governed in part by the provincial Sale of Goods Acts. This is a sale. This completes a sale. It was mine; It is yours; You had the money; I have the money; Good-bye.

Women's is different. The sale is complete until the woman decides she no longer likes the merchandise. She then returns to the shop and says so. What follows is a mystery to me. The vendor adopts a broken expression and says, Okay, and takes it back. The whole process embarrasses me no end, and is part of a ritual called "shopping". I go "shopping" as rarely as possible and if I can, alone.

pilotwolf
3rd Dec 2004, 19:05
Hmm.. currently sat on a rather nice Courts sofa.

Good quality, comfy and delivered in under 2 weeks. A little concerned about my warranty and spill protection now - will have to call them tomorrow... did have a letter offering to move it to an independent company about 6 months ago - wonder if they knew then they were going under?

DFS however... brought sofa from them originally and after 4 weeks they turned up - looked at door and said, (to ex) " it eon't go in there luv", never measured, never tried, drove away! Needless to say when I heard about this it cost them 1300 in sale and about 200 compensation for loss of her earnings waiting in for them!

PW

Whirlygig
3rd Dec 2004, 19:29
Punter gets 'Pay nothing for 2 years' deal from Finance house - DFS gets dosh from Finance House within 7 days and THEN and only THEN places the order with the supplier who bills him upon delivery.
I used to work for well-known High Street furniture and interior design shop (famous for purple & gold cushions and scented candles!!). The deal with the Finance House was that we didn't get the dosh until the goods were delivered to the customer and we had their signature to prove it.

Don't know how others work, but it all seemed reasonable to me!

There seems to be some confusion here between The Sale of Goods Act 1979 and The Consumer Credit Act 1974. If you want to make any complaint against any supplier, you need to make sure which one of those acts covers you.

Cheers

Whirlygig

Skylark4
3rd Dec 2004, 21:51
EAL401,
you don't have to have or use a credit card. That is your choice.
I choose to use a Tesco credit card for virtually all purchases for which Tesco reward me with 'points'which I can use as cash in store or through their club. I am in the process of purchasing RAC membership with this 'funny money' at four times its face value. I also get free insurance on items worth over 100 and the protection against bankruptcy under discussion here. Anyone who buys an airline ticket or a package holiday anyway but with a credit card needs his head examined. Just make sure you pay it off in full every month and NEVER go into debt.

Mike W

IB4138
4th Dec 2004, 06:12
That wonderful furniture retailer in the UK, Courts, is reported to have gone into receivership. None of the stores will reopen.

My son finds this quietly amusing, as his ex cleared off with all their furniture, bought from Courts, with a lifetime guarantee.

Lifetime seems to be up for Courts and their guarantees.

SirToppamHat
4th Dec 2004, 16:59
I know I joined in with all the banging-on about how great credit cards are, but it does concern me that the law in this country offers so little protection for the purchaser when these companies go bankrupt. Didn't something similar happen with the Queensway chain in about 1990?

I also have a vague recollection of a case in the last few years where it was shown that the retailer continued offering goods for sale, taking deposits and promising to deliver in X weeks, even though it was known within the company that it was going under and the chances of delivery were zilch. That, I believe, is fraud or obtaining money by deception. I wonder when Courts knew the game was up? IMHO, all monies taken after that date should be returned to the public.

Davaar
4th Dec 2004, 23:40
The consumer abuse discussed here is not limited to furniture. In 1975 colleagues gave me an engraved Sheaffer desk-set when I left a job. One of the pens is ball-point and since received has been used with care, no violent acceleration or heavy braking. Imagine my chagrin, then, when today it stopped working! Without warning! Naturally, one of my first stops was at a Sheaffer outlet to probe this conundrum. I need not tell you how displeased I was with the diagnosis: run out of ink! It was put as coldly and callously as that. And this just when I was becoming comfortable with the thing. Even worse was the cavalier attitude of the dealer: No replacement! I had to spend about $6.00 to make it work again. I shall be watching for this carefully in 2033, I can tell you, and I hope there is no repeat then of today's unhappy development.