Is it worth it?

[Oggin Aviator]

Not a rhetorical question, I am genuinely interested in what people think.

Is the cost of an integrated course or the modular course worth it when trying to get a career in the industry? For someone without any responsibilities I could see it however what about for someone (however motivated and committed to pass the exams and training) with house, mortgage, wife plus x +2 kids etc?

Does anyone know approximately how many people with licenses but very low hours are actually job hunting - I know a definitive answer cannot be given but maybe a guess .....

Perhaps some self sponsored people could provide their experiences, either successful or not. Is the industry picking up, is the seven year cycle turning upswing or will it do so in the next few years (2008) if we assume post 9/11 was an unnatural (time wise) low point.

Cheers all, and good luck for those job hunting!

Oggin

[Grim]

hi there,

i think industry is definetly picking up.
just got my first job after two years waiting after school and without any hours and its a dream (no low cost. type rating paid and its gonna be B738!). 3 other guys i personally know got similar jobs on 737-738 and there are many screenings going on in germany.
next year should be good and the year after even better. just keep yourself trained and some how motivated and most of us sooner or later will get a job at a flight deck.

take care,

grim (just wanted to spread some positive word :-) )

[Oggin Aviator]

Nice one Grim -congrats.

[Cruise Alt]

In all honesty - Think VERY carefully before you start.

Find out exactly what you are letting yourself into. You are not going to be having loads of time off in exoctic places with wedge loads of cash.

For most people I know - that is the successful ones who quickly get an airline job - it takes at least 7 years to pay off the training debt.


Really make an effort to talk to some pilots. AND not a virgin or BA capatin you know. THIS WILL NOT BE YOUR JOB. At least not in the next 20 years.

If you are lucky you will get a job with a low cost or regional. If very lucky an jet charter. Salary will be around £37k jet. As a capt the best you will earn is £80k. more likely £65k.

Those are the rewards. In exchange you will have to sign away your social life. Your roster will be produced about 6 weeks in advance if yoyu are lucky. You will either start early (0500 ish) or finish late (2300 to 0200). Weekends will consist of tuesday and wednesday - and not many people want to go to the pub on a tuesday night. If you have any hobbies where you need to attend once a week at a particular time, cancel your mambership now!

Then you have to consider your early start could be changed to to a late finish just hours before. Adios planned evening out.

Then consider the number of arlines taht come and go. I think I saw the figure that you are likely to be redundant statistically once every six years. Not good for the mortgage.


This is all if you are lucky enough to complete the course and get a job.


Don't get me wrong I love it. Flying over the pyranees on a clear day after their first layer of snow - beautiful.

The lifestyle with it - well I have moved 4 times in 4 years and dont bother to unpack the boxes anymore! And I have been engaged for 3 1/2 years. We cant plan the wedding because we have not known where we will be in 6 months time.

In summary. GET THE FACTS - DONT BELIEVE THE HYPE.

And good luck.

[no sponsor]

I better write carefully before I get my head bitten off, but:

I don't think it is worth it, to be honest. I'm about to start my IR and CPL, but I honestly don't expect a half decent job. because:

- I'm over 30,
- the constant (and persitant) rumours that only young 20 somethings get in
- the cavalier attitude that organisations lend to anybody who can sign their name away - (when I first thought of training five years ago, no bank would lend me anything - this has all changed)
- CTCs hold on some airlines
- the huge numbers of people in training
- the influx of experienced people from the rest of the world.
- the erosion of T & Cs
- downward movement of salaries

I'll try like buggery to get a job, but I will call it a day after a while if I get nowhere.

Life for a self-sponsored person like me isn't getting any easier.

:ugh:

(edited to add further woes)

[Hufty]

Is it worth it? Well, it depends on what your other options are. Sure there are loads of alternative careers out there and you can get very fat and happy by working for a large organisation doing something else.

For me, I am 33 and landed my first job this year after spending years working the City. The downside is that I have days off during the week and do have problems arrranging my social life due to an roster that tends to change, but it is a job I really enjoy as opposed to the job(s) I had before that paid me three times what I earn now but that I hated. I spent over £40,000 on my training and am now struggling a bit financially, but I wake up in the mornings now looking forward to going to work, which is something I have never experienced before. It is early days, but I get a sense of achievement now that eluded me before - flying an efficient sector and pulling off a nice landing is 100% more valuable to me than chasing some valueless corporate objective. I went for the modular route and it didn’t make a difference in getting my job. The fact that I got first time passes was more important in securing the interview.

There have been loads of discussions about modular vs. integrated so you can search, but look for posts by Pilot Pete for some good insight into the realities of the job!! There are loads of issues with a flying career, so you really need to genuinely enjoy the job to make it work for you.

Hufty

[Grim]

hi there,

ok i must admit, i am in my first half twenties but another kollegue with no flying experience who was taken on that b738 is in his early thirties and also got the job. some airlines recognize personal life experience as much as an advantage for them to hire as a young candidate who can work for them more years.
i know it's easy for me now to speak as i finally got the job. but at the time and months of unemployment i thought the other way around. i thought that maybe because i am quite young i was not being hired. i attendet at one interview with a major carrier and of us 10 candidates the only two who were taken were in their thirties. so all of you who are older should focuse on your advantages like life experience, seriousnesss and committment rather than being full of negative thoughts.

regards
grim (who does'nt want to sound precociously ;) )

[Old King Coal]

Cruise Alt - an excellent post, bravo !

[Cruise Alt]

Thank you

Old King Coal

[RVR800]

Next year the CAA will have to reconsider its policy of not publicising success statistics for pilot wanabees like yourself.

i.e. The statistics on the Integrated Route versus the Modular route - is it worth it? Where is the proof of this? - the CAA used to call the integrated route their APPROVED route so they clearly have evidence that merits that tag if they approve of it; the CAA think it must be better, trouble is no one knows upon what data they based that tag - its all a bit of a secret...........Could it be that more people get success from the integrated route or could it be that the pass rates are better... ummmm we cant tell you, has traditionally been their response unfortunately......They have the data they just wont cough up. All we know is that integrated is expensive and assume it to be better?

One important thing do statistics indicate that Integrated/Approved Pilots are safer per revenue km flown? As a shareholder in BA I may want proof of that before I could approve of the extra costs to 'my' company in its training budget...?

What is the age profile of people who get initial multi-crew type ratings? How many fATPL holders achieve success?

Other examples ...How many sat the CPL exam, how many failed that exam. How many PPLs took the IR how many failed etc etc..
What test centre has the best Wx record? Which test centre is most active?

What is the most difficult ATPL exam? It used to be Nav cos the scatter patter on the sitting demonstrated this...

Minutes of SRG policy meetings what change are they planning next ...?

Good News on the horizon however - This is because next year they will as a UK public body have to, under the Freedom of Information Act, reveal such Data.

This should inform customer (wannabee) choice....

The FAA do produce stats but we its seems have the attitude in Europe that information is power..

http://www.api.faa.gov/Airmen/Airmen2003/TABLE%20OF%20CONTENTS.htm

For example: This shows that the FAA issued 10,858 IRs to Private Pilots in 2003 adding to the total of 59,774 PPL/IRs many of whom fly in the UK

There are some limited Stats from SRG issuing just 25 IRs to
Private Pilots in 2003 :sad:

[deathcruzer]

Do yourself a favour....get another career, and keep flying privately. Don’t spoil your dream with the reality.....The way this is going we will be working 90 hour weeks and paying the company for the pleasure…..sorry but that is the way it is.:(

[The mole]

Cruise Alt - good post. Every wannabe should read it cos its the way it is

[ukwannabe]

Out of curiosity, why do you recommend not talking to a Virgin pilot?! They don't lways have rose tinted specs. Though it was a fantastic job, working with fantastic people......them were the days. More fool me! But I am equally sure that they will give you an accurate reply to all and any questions.

[EGAC_Ramper]

I think from the way I read it,that wannabe's like myself are not going to finsh the CPL/ME/IR's and walk onto Virgin A340's or BA747's,so in this light pointless? I dunno they had to start somehere aswell.


Regards

[Pilot Pete]

Just to play Devil's Advocate, there are a few generalisations in Cruise's post;

it takes at least 7 years to pay off the training debt.

Not necessarily, especially for the older Wannabe who perhaps has equity in a property or severence pay from a previous employer. In my own case I was debt free just after qualification, but granted I was several years 'behind' where I would have been had I not started in this industry. The flip side being that I will probably earn more in a lifetime in this industry than I would if I had stayed where I was...........

Really make an effort to talk to some pilots. AND not a virgin or BA capatin you know. THIS WILL NOT BE YOUR JOB. At least not in the next 20 years.

I am not sure why you think that someone training now will not be a Virgin or BA pilot within twenty years? Consider the large number of pilots that Virgin and BA are (have recently) recruited. I know of several who have less than 10 years experience in this industry, let's face it, even by your own admission, someone 'lucky' could get a lo-cost jet job or charter job straight after training. Both BA and Virgin would look at you with 2500hrs TT much of which was with the likes of Easy........infact I am lead to believe the Virgin spokesman who 'stole the show' at the Balpa Job Opportunities Conference made a joke about the Virgin 'easyJet' training scheme........

As a capt the best you will earn is £80k. more likely £65k.

This may not be exactly what you meant, but the best you could earn as a captain is £80k? Top scale in my company is currently £91839, about to increase by approx. 4.1% in January. That would be for a 15 year captain. Add to that Flight Duty Pay, Sector Pay etc etc and I think you can see that it is considerably more than your £80k figure. I heard one captain earned £147k before tax last financial year..........which I agree is totally unrealistic as a guide figure, but my company is not that different in terms of salary to it's competitors, indeed we have fallen behind several over the last 5 years.

Brand new captains in my company will start on £61k basic upon promotion (assuming they hadn't spent more than 6 years as an FO, in which case they would start on at least £63k, increasing by about £1k for every extra year as an FO). Other variable payments need to be added to these figures too, so I would say your £65k is representative of a starting figure for a charter captain.

Then you have to consider your early start could be changed to to a late finish just hours before. Adios planned evening out.

This is why many pilots push to get Block Window Protection. Many people knock Balpa, but the CC in at least two of the companies I have worked for have negotiated and won such rights. If crewing try to change my duty by more than two hours before my rostered start time or two hours after my originally rostered end time I am in my rights to saya polite 'thanks but no thanks'. I agree this is not the industry norm, but is something worth looking for when perhaps you have a little experience and are looking for your 'employer of choice'.

The lifestyle with it - well I have moved 4 times in 4 years and dont bother to unpack the boxes anymore! And I have been engaged for 3 1/2 years. We cant plan the wedding because we have not known where we will be in 6 months time.

I was once given a bit of advice by a long serving training captain. He said, NEVER, EVER move house for an airline. Choose where you want your roots to be, put them down and then do whatever to make the job work. I may soon be faced with such a decision, I will not uprrot my family, I will buy/ rent a place near to the new base and do whatever to make it work, with a bid in for my base of choice just as soon as I can get it in. The problem with constantly moving, especially with kids in school, is obvious from the disruption point of view, perhaps not so from the employers side of things. I knew guys who moved to Glasgow for an extra aircraft to be used there, only for the following summer the airline decided they could make more money out of it at Manchester so they pulled it. OK the guys got paid relocation, but that's not the point if you have kids in school etc.

In summary. GET THE FACTS - DONT BELIEVE THE HYPE.

Couldn't agree more.:ok:

Weekends will consist of tuesday and wednesday - and not many people want to go to the pub on a tuesday night.

Ooh, I dunno..........I could name a few;) :p

PP

[Mr Benn]

Blimey, I want to work for your company!!!

I thought the original post was more realistic!

Please do tell how to become a BA or Virgin Captain in less than 20 years.

I think what was inferred there was that people new to aviation would do better talking to an FO, in a company that doesn't pay £147k to experienced Captains, to get a better idea of what HIS or HER job will be.

I know plenty of BA pilots who've been there a while and to be honest the job now bears no resemblance to the job they have (with the accrued seniority, increments, bid line benefits et al)

I think its better to get the real story, warts and all, from FOs.

[Pilot Pete]

Please do tell how to become a BA or Virgin Captain in less than 20 years.

I must admit I read the original sentence in another way and possibly incorrectly thought he meant 'PILOT' with BA or Virgin, not specifically captain with same..........

However, I understand that current time to command in BA is around 15 years (not sure about Virgin Atlantic), so perhaps the comment still stands. However, I personally believe that the BA retirement age will go up to 60 within the next 15 years, therefore 20 years to command would be a realistic time to assume for new joiners, but over such a long period things will surely change.

As I said though, I was playing Devil's Advocate to Cruise's post. I was merely trying to point out that not all airlines are the same, even those that you can get into with 200hrs. I personally would recommend Wannabes to look at what is obtainable in their future careers with the various carriers, which will help them to make better career decisions once they get a start (with anyone!) First job has to be whatever you can get, but I have always advocated getting the experience required as quickly as possible and moving to your 'employer of choice' just as soon as you can.

Also, not all Wannabes are in the same financial position once they qualify, so I stand by those comments too. The fact that my airline pays ONE captain £147k does not mean it is the norm, as I pointed out. I also gave the top salary scale, which is very achievable for anyone joining the airline, as are the starting scales for commanders. I will also say again that I fly for a charter airline, which has fallen behind it's major competitors with regard to basic salary over the last few years. All these companies employ 200hr Wannabes in some shape or form (be it sponsored, direct entry or through a scheme like CTC), so I think the example is entirely relevant.

I do however agree that these are not the majority of jobs that low hours guys are going to get first off (the lucky, dedicated, determined individuals may well though) and the other end of the spectrum is flying a small turbo-prop for a small outfit that knows all its F/Os leave within a year or two so therefore don't pay much above minimum wage!

Sure, you can expect disrupted rosters, night stops and minimum rest, along with bad terms and conditions possibly when you first start, but you should view a job like that as just another stage of your 'training'...........

More and more of the 'better' employers have things like block window protection for their pilots. These have usually been well negotiated by your CC reps. Many others aspire to such practices and are pushing for similar schemes in their airlines. It is a subject in itself, but roster disruption usually occurs due to bad rosting practices; if you can stamp those out your don't get a 'firefighting' method of rostering on a daily basis, where the company likes to have the power to change anybody they wish onto any duty these wish. I have worked for two airlines that are completely diametrically opposed when it comes to rostering. They are both charter airlines, doing the same thing, on a similar scale. One was a rostering nightmare, the other is almost 100% stable. Bad rostering costs companies serious amounts of money as well as screwing your life and body clock up. Demonstrate how it can be improved and show the 'win, win' for the pilots and the company and an 'enlightened' management can not ignore the argument (just show the accountants the millions that can be saved in a year!) So there are good and bad out there and Wannabes could end up working for either. I do however agree that the majority of employers are still in the dark ages with respect to this.

As for my comments about not moving house, well perhaps that needs a little further clarification. Obviously for your first job at said 'minimum wage T/P outfit' will probably necessitate your moving to Timbuktoo (sp?) and living on a pittance for the bond period (ish). What I meant was once you join an airline that you like that can fulfil your career aspirations be very careful about selling everything up and moving 'for them', as it is just like employment and redundancy; you are a commodity and business decisions are made for the sake of the business, not for the sake of keeping your loyalty rewarded. I would suggest living where you want to live (be that on the doorstep of your prefered base or not) and if you need to change bases look very carefully at the future and work out all your options before moving to that 'new' base with one aircraft that could easily close again in a year's time if they have got their sums wrong.

Weekends are weekends. Tuesdays and Wednesdays are quite often a pilot's weekend. If you join this industry without an understanding of that then you really are away with the fairies. That doesn't make it any easier for my wife who stands on the edge of a wind and rainswept playing field on a Saturday morning to watch No.1 son's game of football, with sons No's 2 & 3 getting cold wet and miserable (as is she) whilst I soar overhead with a hot cup of tea and 6 lovely ladies asking which lunch I would like...............

That's reality and there is no getting away from that, but I can achieve plenty on my days off during the week and actually enjoy being around when most 'normal' people are at their desks, including having several jars at the local with a bunch of similar minded individuals (yeah, usually pilots!) I do agree that the lifestyle is disruptive and prevents you from doing many of the things that our friends take for granted........but if you want that, go get a 9-5.

So to summarise, I am only playing Devil's Advocate and putting the other side. It is not all doom and gloom. 2005 is going to be a bumper year for recruitment (according to our MD who predicted 800 new positions at a recent presentation to Balpa delegates) and many of the chaps who a year or so back were enjoying their first job will now be in a position to push to get a 'better' lifestyle with a n other employer.

I recommend chatting to all pilots currently employed if you want to get the picture of what your future holds. You will hear good, bad and indifferent opinions. It's down to you to decide which are valid for you are where you want to end up. I personally still think you could get a command in Virgin Atlantic in 20 years if that's what you want. Do remember that situations change. My employer had a time to command of 15 years only last summer. It is now down to about 6-7 for new joiners and for those who already have a little experience you can apply to move across to our new lo-cost airline after virtually no time at all. A number are doing just this. Right place, right time.

Best of luck to you all.

PP

[Oggin Aviator]

Thanks PP for those 2 posts putting some great perspective on what is a thought provoking subject.

You say that 2005 is going to be a bumper year for recruitment with 800 positions etc - do you have any insight about the following years (2008 in particular)

Cheers

Oggin

[Cruise Alt]

Thanks for the change of heart PP. Sounds like you agree - and I was just about to take it personally.

One further factor, your airline sounds like it is going fantastically well – only 7 years to command. Just a word of warning. Three years ago my employer was the most successful in the charter business with grand expansion plans. Now it has just shed one third of its flight crew. Time to command when I joined was 5 years. Now – well considerably longer, if at all. You never know what is going to happen in this business. Additionally, just because top scale pay now is so high doesn’t mean that a someone starting their training now will be as lucky. As I understand Monarch have just introduced a new pay scale for new entrants. With increased competition from central and east Europe I guess this is the way ahead and others will follow.

I would just like to let those folks looking at joining the club know what they are up against. If they are really committed then they may have the determination needed to get through. I just worry that they see the dream not the reality. I would not swap but I do hear too many colleagues, usually in the left seat, who wish they had never got into the business.

[Pilot Pete]

As I said, I was just putting another perspective that was not all doom and gloom and I fully understand and appreciate that not all employers are alike.

I also agree that things change and sympathise with anyone in the predicament that many of our colleagues find themselves in through no fault of their own, but through bad management and accounting.

Unfortunately, I don't think you can plan your future as a Wannabe trying to predict which company is going to be the next to fall from grace, that's impossible. You can only go on what is current and cast in stone. Join an airline on a certain level of terms and conditions today and then you have the collective determination to maintain those terms and conditions. If the business is going to crumble about you (a la many US major carriers) then as a group you may have to decide to lower your terms and conditions to keep the business going and your job. That's reality and business, which we are all subject to. I totally agree that new joiner packages are on the slide across the board, which reflects the current trading market (too many pilots and not enough jobs) and even the so called 'better' airlines are charging for type ratings and closing pension schemes or reducing benefits together with lower starting wages etc. It confirms the addage that you earn what you can negotiate, not necessarily what you are worth. What we have to bear in mind is that many airlines have historically adjusted things such as pension benefits downwards for new joiners several times already, so that is nothing new. My pension benefit is much lower than those who are retiring now whom, IMHO have had the best of this industry, but I am still happy with it and will make other provision to compliment what my employer offer.

I agree Cruise that my airline may be doing well at the moment (actually just trying to not stand still whilst the market shifts beneath us all) and that is no guarantee of success in the future, but again, from the Wannabe perspective none of us have a crystal ball and it is impossible for them to make a guess at future successful airlines; it is a notoriously high risk business. I personally think that there is going to be a blip in the low cost market at some point over the coming years, but that is just my guess.

It must be terrible sitting in the left seat of an airline which is in trouble, especially when you have years of service and seniority invested. The fragility of this business is brought home to us all and is something which perhaps Wannabes should take note of. I personally experienced redundancy after 9/11 and sympathise with all who are in such a stressful position, but perhaps from my point of view it happened at a good time; I had only been there a year so didn't have much to lose other than the job (although I couldn't see that positive at the time!) and I understand that even the F/Os who are in the frame at your airline have considerably more years and increments to lose should redundancy happen.

I think Cruise is right to let Wannabes know what they are getting into, but I think my points help to add some balance also; it can be rough, it can be frustrating, it can be tedious and it can be morale sapping, but its not ALL doom and gloom, there are still better jobs and worse jobs out there, you really do have to show the determination to get one of the better ones and then hope that the rug isn't pulled from under you..............if you want a steady job, steady wage, steady pension and steady life join the Civil Service, if you want to fly aeroplanes you have to accept the nature of the business. What is sure though is that air travel is and will continue to increase over the coming years so there at least should be jobs for qualified and experienced pilots as the years tick by.

As for future recruitment needs, who knows? The quote I gave came from our MD and I should clarify was an industry projection, not company requirement! 800 jobs in 2005 would sound reasonable to me taking into account the low cost continued growth coupled to traditional carriers recruitment needs. The trend should be for recruitment to continue in future years, but as we all know; one or two small events can change all that. 9/11 was the catalyst that put recruitment back 3 years, but hopefully it has lead to some better managed carriers which are more efficiently run and perhaps in slightly more stable positions than the 'head in the sand' stability that prevailed leading up to those tragic events.

Anyhow, I hope I have provoked a little more thought on the part of Wannabes as that was my only intention.

PP