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flajjer
28th Nov 2004, 10:45
Found this thread on another forum a while ago.

http://new.ipilot.com/forum/message.aspx?pid=30136#30136


This guy rolled a cessna and filmed it, one of the instructors found it and this guy got problems..

Anyone know what happened to this guy?
Anyone got similar stories? videos, pictures?[

tobzalp
28th Nov 2004, 11:06
Cliff's notes please.

Lon More
28th Nov 2004, 11:26
Same thing was done with the B707 prototype I believe

flajjer
28th Nov 2004, 11:30
Yupp, the video with the pilots commentary can be found here:

http://www.airviolence.com/download.php?list.18

Onan the Clumsy
28th Nov 2004, 13:49
I may or may not have had someone roll a 337 on me during a flight review. :hmm:

http://photos.airliners.net/small/1/8/9/716981.jpg

Solid Rust Twotter
28th Nov 2004, 13:52
Got rolled in a 206 while pulling in the static line bags after despatching a load of students. Strange feeling braced in the door while the horison disappears. Rolled a couple myself after that but wouldn't recommend it after seeing a 182 pig in trying it one weekend.:(

Now that one is older and, hopefully, wiser, one still wakes up screaming at the thought of what could have happened...

flajjer
28th Nov 2004, 16:55
Everything can indeed be rolled!

I got this bloke from finland who uploaded two videos when he does real aerobatics with a Piper Cherokee. Itīs a cool video but I don't know if I would want to fly that pa-28 afterwards :O

It would be fun to see more videos like that though :ok:

Solid Rust Twotter
28th Nov 2004, 18:01
If you maintain 1G all the way it shouldn't be a problem. The trick is not to use rudder to avoid it becoming a snap roll in which case things start getting interesting....


Better yet - DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!

Onan the Clumsy
28th Nov 2004, 18:29
Well old...damn it I forget his name now...Alex Hastings or something wrote in his memoir Sigh For A Merlin how he used to roll Lancasters. He'd put a coffee cup on the glare shield and just keep 1G. Lost several thousand feet, but it worked ok.

I'm assuming the bomb bays were empty :}


Henshaw maybe?

Shaggy Sheep Driver
28th Nov 2004, 18:43
You can indeed barrel roll anything - as long as you get it right! Normally a low 'G' manouver, both 'G' and speed can buld up rapidly if you get it wrong (guess how I know).

Wouldn't want to make that small mistake in PA28:oh:

To guarantee to get it right EVERY time you need to be good - very good. Certainly a lot better than me ;)

SSD

Wino
28th Nov 2004, 18:49
A twin beach (Beach 18) does an excellent barrel roll.

There is a guy on the airshow circuit that does a most excellent aerobatics display in a stock beach 18

Cheers
Wino

ehwatezedoing
29th Nov 2004, 01:33
Here it is Wino:B-18 barrel roll or end loop pic. (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/709153/L/ )
He is also playing with a Lear I think.

Still pretty impressive!
I thought about it but never had the guts to do it (in a 18). This "wing spar" AD's kind of....stopped me to just even try.
:ooh:

Wino
29th Nov 2004, 01:41
BINGO!

That's the one. Saw him at the Sussex Airshow in August of this year....

10 years ago he was doing it in a different model painted in the Navy Blue WWII scheme.

Cheers
Wino

Teddy Robinson
29th Nov 2004, 04:11
There was a guy who did a very aerobatic demonstation for the (I believe) importers of the Partenavia P68B to the USA.

One day his luck ran out and the wings seperated outboard of the engines at a speed somewhat in excess of Vne.
He now demonstrates halos.

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but "not cleared for aerobatic manouvers" is there for a reason, and whilst the likes of Bob Hoover may be operating well within the envelope, the average pilot having a stab coz they saw it on jetblast is possibly heading for trouble.

Use the right equipment for the job, invest in training .. or don't do it.

Flap Sup
29th Nov 2004, 08:24
Solid Rust Twotter,

It is not possible to do a 1G barrel roll. You'll need at least approx 2Gs in the pull up and the level out. If you try with less G in a regular Cessna/Piper, you'll end up without any airspeed at all before you have completed the roll.

I must stress that it is not only illegal, but also very dangerous to practice aerobatics in an aircraft thats not certified for it.

Go rent an aerobatic aircraft - Its great. It dosn't get any better that when green is up and blue is down.

FS

Parapunter
29th Nov 2004, 08:48
You can even roll these (http://www.redbull-vertigo.com/en/imagepages/image04_11.htm) :eek:

Wouldn't catch me doing that though...

flajjer
29th Nov 2004, 09:47
I agree with all that has been said, you should have and aerobatic plane to do aerobatics with (I have a skybolt as a toy) and you should have the proper training. It should be something one should't even have to discuss, even though it is possible to do near one G stuff.

But the question is still what might have happened to the guy who was caught by the faa rolling that cessna. How is the FAA treating guys like that. Was that video clip enough as evidence?

Paterbrat
29th Nov 2004, 10:01
First paying job was as an instructor at an aerobatic school. Would echo Flap Sup, go try it in approved equipment. When students at BATC boasted of doing it in 150's would simply recommend they saw what held the wings on to the airframe, two pencil thick bolts about three inches long, one on each side!
Having said that my very first instructor, ex RAF and last posting CFS barrel rolled us over the Isle of Wight about my second hour as a 'confidence' manouvere, complete of course with the caution never to try it? Explained about neccesity of correct 'G' loading and experience in aerobatics. Needless to say have followed his advice ever since having also learnt that even with aerobatic experience one can still have an off day and not quite get it right. I sadly do not come up to Bob Hoovers standard, what a fantastic airman/showman!
Was taken up in a twin com by Chief Instructor at one Florida school, and asked to spin it. Thinking this a 'test' simply pointed to the placard prohibiting any aerobatic manouveres. He then told me to disregard this and do one, explained that at least one of my future students would put me in one and he wanted to demonstrate and to see that I could recover, and the height loss.
Spins very fast flat and height loss is frightening. I had two students catch me out despite my carefull eye in the next two and a half years, so he was quite right!

My names Turkish
29th Nov 2004, 11:33
These guys paid with their lives to find out if they could roll a Beech 99.

CVR (http://www.tailstrike.com/280493.htm)

NTSB (http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=CHI93MA143&rpt=fi)

Onan the Clumsy
29th Nov 2004, 12:08
a filled out grade was found in the pilot's mailboxWell, at least he passed the check ride :hmm:

flajjer
29th Nov 2004, 13:16
Idiots those two.
Well in my opinion it's strange that he even managed to get a CFI rating.

2R
29th Nov 2004, 17:45
Was it an aerobat ,I have a few hours in those .
Ugly loops Due to lack of power.And the rolls do use up a lot altitude but still safe to fly and a lot cheaper than a pitts or extra ,and it is all fun.the first loop was with a guy from biggin hill Len Perry ,;) Loads of fun.I suppose that is why birds sing.

Solid Rust Twotter
29th Nov 2004, 18:00
Flap Sup et al

You're quite correct in saying that rolling those things isn't conducive to longevity. There is no pull up of 2G if done at altitude but as stated, it's a bloody stupid thing to do and was done in the days when one was young and bulletproof. The loss of height came as a shock and could quite easily have led to one becoming just another statistic. There but for the grace of god.......

Your advice is sound. If anyone wishes to do something like that, do it in the correct equipment and not in something that was never designed for those maneouvres.

con-pilot
30th Nov 2004, 00:17
2R you are right, if all you guys will remember Cessna did build a C-150 that was certified to do aerobatics.

If the person was in one of the Areobats (SP) it was perfectly legal, if he had approval. However, the Aerobat is capable of mild aerobatics.

LowNSlow
30th Nov 2004, 05:30
Anything can be rolled but please, it it isn't certified for aeros, don't do it in something I might fly. Also, please do it over a large body of water so that when you make like a tent peg you don't kill anybody but yourself and a few fish...........

flajjer
30th Nov 2004, 09:44
It was't an aerobat this guy flew.

Even though it is forbidden, most of the people has rolled some kind of machine. They just don't admit it.

Feeton Terrafirma
30th Nov 2004, 09:49
So what you are saying is that I shouldn't have looped that Concorde either?

Just as well it was MS Flt Sim ;)

PorcoRosso
30th Nov 2004, 10:26
By what I have read, I have the feeling this student pilot was in command during this roll .....
If it's the case, whatever the FAA decided about him, I think he doesn't deserve to become a commercial pilot.
He would have been killed, be sure his family would sue the Flying Club for "not clearly forbid student to perform aerobatics"
If he wasn't guilty, well, bad luck, but he would probably be able to explain where the video was shot & who shot it ? who gave it to him ? It doesn't seem impossible to track the author and ask him a couple of questions also ?

Some of you are more or less admitting they performed some kind of aerobatics with various unapproved planes ... Think twice before posting about that. Some silly inexperienced students may think "I can also do it"

Years ago, I was towing gliders in South of france on a Morane Saulnier MS235 (http://www.seidweair.de/MS235.jpg)
a very nice plane, a bit sluggish on aileron, but really fun to fly. hundreds of them are used in Europe for that purpose .
The Airfield where we were based, had a maintenance facility where all the clubs & schools from the area would put their plane for 50, 100 HRs & annual checks .
Once, we saw a 235 landing and taxying to this facility ... Was it the colour scheme ? the Gear ? Well ... it didn't look like the other MS235.... The pilot, 25 Years old, loud speaker, told the mechanic to tune the controls, as the A/C behaved "not as usual" since a couple of days.
Later in the day, they put another Rallye in the Hangar, exactly in front of the first. Then we saw ..... an obvious difference of Dihedral between the two A/C.
After some investigation about the "towing techniques" of our loudspeaker colleague, we found out that he was famous for barrel rolling the thing upon release of the glider, and then dive like a stone, back to the airfield .... the accumulated "G's" on the airframe bent the spar and sheared part of the skin .
The whole wing needed to be replaced.
Useless to say that he wasn't speaking too loud after ...

We don't need pranks like that in the profession. If they are lucky enough not to kill themselves, they may badly bend an A/C and put other's lives in danger.

spleener
30th Nov 2004, 13:25
Interesting thoughts expressed on this post!
I have to agree with the advice of getting some professional help in the form of aerobatics training in appropriate machinery...
Regarding the 1G roll, I will admit I have never tried this particular exercise, but I sumise the following:
The assumption is that the manoeuvre is commenced from straight and level flight
[nose high would require an initial pull up - or for the lateral{longitudinal?} thinkers an outside looping setup - not equal to 1G: As the roll is commenced and 1G maintained [on the G meter!] the nose will of course drop below the horizon at an increasing rate... the ensuing nose low attitude being somewhat outside the normal flight envelope margins. I guess that the roll could be completed in a high performance aircraft [I'm thinking Hawk or similar] by starting at a slow speed with PLENTY of altitude. The availability of a sufficiently high Vne and/or drag devices would be necessary [Stuka anyone?].
Anyone any REAL experience??? Forget trying this in your PA30something or HawkSP
PLEASE!!!:=

waldopepper42
30th Nov 2004, 14:59
I was taught barrel rolls in the Chipmunk. It is possible to achieve with very low g (in my case 1.5 - 2 was about the best I managed).
There are two versions (at least!), my preferred option being the start from level flight and pull the nose gently up to about 45% before starting the roll.
If you get the pitch/roll coordination right you should end up inverted at 90% to your original heading with the nose still well above the horizon. I was taught that this was an important check - if the nose is on or below the horizon at this stage, bin the manoevre, check forward and aileron roll to the nearest horizon.
From this nose high position you are going quite slowly (in a Chipmunk) so it is easy to complete the pull through to your original heading without excessive speed or g-force.
I am not suggesting anyone should try this for the first time without an instructor (I certainly didn't), and never, never in a non aerobatics certified aeroplane.
WP.

henry crun
30th Nov 2004, 20:19
There seems to be different interpretations of what constitutes a barrel roll and how to do it.

When I was taught aerobatics, admitedly a long time ago, my instructor drew a circle on a piece of paper and said, "imagine that is the face of a clock".

"We place the aircraft at the 9 o"clock position straight and level, pull up rolling to the right so that when we reach the 12 o"clock position we have 90 degrees of bank on".


"Continue rolling to the right and pulling until by 3 o"clock we are inverted; at 6 o"clock we again have 90 degrees of bank, and as we continue to pull we finish back at 9 o"clock straight and level".

waldopepper42
30th Nov 2004, 20:57
That, according to Neil Williams' book on aerobatics, is why the barrel roll was never included in competitiions - no-one could agree on the definition! ;)

Feeton Terrafirma
30th Nov 2004, 23:19
"The Barrel roll is a combination between a loop and a roll. You complete one loop while completing one roll at the same time. The flight path during a barrel roll has the shape of a horizontal cork screw. Imagine a big barrel, with the airplanes wheels rolling along the inside of the barrel in a cork screw path. During a barrel roll, the pilot always experiences positive Gs. The maximum is about 2.5 to 3 G. The minimum about 0.5 G. "

Aerobatic Figures
by Dr. Guenther Eichhorn
Experimental Aircraft Association, Inc
EAA Aviation Center
P.O. Box 3086
Oshkosh, WI 54903-3086


You would think this bloke would know.

pigboat
1st Dec 2004, 01:08
Well, whatever they are, if you perform one in an aircraft that's not certified for aerobatics, that makes you a test pilot. :E

Davaar
1st Dec 2004, 01:18
A probationary test pilot.

allan907
1st Dec 2004, 02:25
....and probably a dead test pilot