Ginger beers

[tinpis]

On the wireless this morning average age for LAMEs in ozzy is late 50's
No fresh meat starting so where does that leave the industry in 5 -10 years from now?

[Keg]

With the LAMEs earning a truck load more than the pilots who will still be a dime a dozen! :sad: :{

[Chimbu chuckles]

Perhaps...but the same report suggested the average age of pilots was 48 or 50 while the average for LAMEs was 54...our time in the sun is comming too.

[Ultralights]

i am late 20's! 4 of my close buddies are the same, we all have over 10 yrs experience in Aircraft maintainence, we have all been contacted by our former employer asking to come back to work for them, will any of us go back! Hell NO! quit my $70K job driving vans mon to fri to go back to a $40K job, on shift work, in lousy conditions (from which i hear have only gotten worse since our departure) just for the added benefit of staff travel!

[tinpis]

And as rare as rocking horse doo doo is yer plumber or chippy around here.
Kids asked wat they want to do reply leave school go to UNI and make a ****load of money.

[Chimbu chuckles]

While building tradesmen are making $1000/ day in Sydney.

Mind you one of my cousins, in her late 20s, is making more than a QF Captain working for Macquarie Bank...her husband, a senior fund manager and early 30s is making $800k/annum.

Unfortunately many young people these days have a skewed version of the realities of life.

Programs like CSI Miami, ER, Ally Macbeal etc have all the kids wanting to be Doctors, Lawyers and Medical examiners....journalism too has, world wide, more people training to be journos:yuk: than currently employed as such.

Meanwhile plumbers, carpenters, car mechanics etc are demanding and recieving greater reward due to a general shortage of qualified people.

The govt, and parental, drive to keep children in school longer is causing a backlash...schools need to start educating kids to the realities and broadening their horizons.

I know with my teenage daughter, despite my best efforts to stress life's realities, seems to think that life will just run on in the same no effort way when she leaves school in a few years time.

Young adults not leaving home before their late 20s is becoming a social phenomenon that is impacting adversely on the parents ability to adequately fund retirements.

Kids these days need a reality check but the parents cannot compete with TV...which is percieved by kids as 'reality'....and when life fails to live up to that reality kids are getting depressed, hence the higher rates of youth suicide.

[tinpis]

I have just had a nice visit from my cuzzys boy who is doing a tour on a patrol boat here.
He did a trip to the Gulf last year and got a gong for it.
Absolutely loves the life, his job as well as other duties is to look after the guns on board and shoot the .50 cal regularly :E
He s 2 1/2 years into a 4 year hitch looks a million $ and says he is gonna sign up for another hitch.
He said he got absolute **** piled on him for 12 weeks in boot camp "just like in the movies Uncle", in fact of 125 went in only 70 came out.
Nothing like the lifetime of **** poured on some pilots.
More power to him he turns 21 in 2 weeks.

[Ultralights]

Programs like CSI Miami, ER, Ally Macbeal etc have all the kids wanting to be Doctors, Lawyers and Medical examiners...

Meanwhile plumbers, carpenters, car mechanics etc are demanding and recieving greater reward due to a general shortage of qualified people.

The reality is now the "blue collar" workforce is now earning a lot more money than the "white color people"

It wont be too long before school age students deciding on a career will see that the money a plumber is earning after just 4 yrs training is a LOT more than your entry level lawer after 6 or more yrs training and cost of UNI!

[NAMD]

I'm a LAME who's just left the industry after 15 years of heavy and line work for a number of different airlines. I chose to leave the industry for a number of reasons, money wasn't one of them. In fact in leaving my last employer, I dropped around $50K a year to the jobs that I'm doing now. Why the big change? 11 years of shift work, companies that wanted to squeeze the last extra effort out of you, cut, cut, cut, something's gone wrong, who's the first person we can ream. Do the right thing, extract digit, hear nothing, get screwed at the next EBA or God forbid, Individual contract. Minimal line during the day, permanent night shift prospects for the long term future.

Sounds a bit like being a pilot, doesn't it? :D

"Oh but they pay well!!" I hear you say. Yes they do. But what price is happiness and health and sanity? I weighed it up and found that I didn't need to do it anymore. So I left. Best thing I've ever done.

Now for the big question, would I come back? Yes, I probably will, but only when I'm good and ready, into a job that I would enjoy, like any sane person. But for the moment, I'm happy working Monday to Friday, going to weekend BBQs, and watching my young family grow up without looking through cranky, depressed, sleep deprived eyes and counting the hours until I have to front up for my next shift.

Yes, LAME ages are getting older, and the current younger generation won't be sufficient, I don't believe, to cover the shortfall in ten years or so. A lot of young LAME's are leaving the industry disillusioned (sp?), and sad losses alot of them are too. If you want your children to REALLY make a killing, start getting them trained up now!

Everybody has a choice.

[pullock]

NAMD has sumarised it all rather well.

He has sumarised all of the things that make being a LAME these days suck.

I can also back the truth that the average age of LAME's is quite high - in my trade, and looking company wide I can see a large number of people who will be retiring within the next few years.

I am in my early thirties and I too have recently made the decision to leave the industry mostly due to the ever worstening conditions coupled with increasing responsibility/stress.

I am sick of being treated as a liability that is only a hinderance to operating a schedule for an employer who would subcontract my services to the lowest bidder if only they didn't require my kind to keep their precious AOC. I would love to tell these instant aviation experts that I didnt cause the breakdown and that my harts desire is to fix it as best and safely as I can.

All the powers that be are degrading engineering as a career and CASA stands at the head of the list as it's actions are driven by the airlines, and the outcome is reduced air safety.

Sure things are looking up as far as demand for LAME's goes, but the truth is that when demand is there the airlines just bring em in from other countries using the excuse that the Austalian licensing system for LAME's is too complex therefore we should make it easier so that a broader range of ppl can get in, thus reducing demand, wages and safety having once again lowered the bar.

Make the jobs worth having and the people who are up to the jobs will come.

I will regret leaving aeroplanes as I like em, but for the first time in a long time I know I have made a good decision and a step in the right direction by leaving them behind.

[Sunfish]

Back in the 70's Ansett used to get 2000 applicants for LAME apprenticeships each year and we didn't even advertise!! We just left the blank application forms at the guard house at the maintenance base.

One idea the LAMEs came up with themselves was to do away with the sacred eight hour day and go from a three shift to something like a two shift operation. This would have reduced the overtime level and resulted in a slight reduction in take home pay, but it would have given them all a three day weekend and produced a slight cost reduction for the company.

Abeles squashed the idea dead flat instantly.

[Torres]

Don't want to upset Big W by advertising, but ..... I currently have ninety vacancies for trainees and apprentices in Regional and Rural Queensland, which I will never be able to fill. Apprenticeships include carpenters, mechanics, electricians and plumbers - all Award paid employment, free college training. Recently, I have been signing up disolusioned University graduates as trade apprentices.

Six or seven years ago someone in CASA calculated the number of LAME in Australia was insufficient to perform the maintenance task required by the current number of hours flown in Australia each year. And the situation has deteriorated since then!

Australia's skilled trade shortage is at crisis level. Sadly, Canberra don't seem to be listening!

[notmyC150v2]

The current lack of skilled technical and trades people largely results from two points of pressure:

1. During the late 70's and early to mid 80's the employers were facing a poor economy and had to cut costs. One of the easiest ways of doing that was to stop hiring apprentices and trainees. That way every dollar spent brought in revenue. Traning people just costs money (a shortsighted view but business is like that).

2. The Federal and State governments all decided that we had to become a "smart" country and send every high school kid straight to university. Subsidies for apprentices were slashed and no other assistance was given in any way to employers who wanted to hire apprentices and trainees. Remember, the Tech bubble was growing rapidly at this time and all of our kids wanted to be computer nerds and get rich like Bill Gates.

The end result of this shortsighted policy was that we now have a heap of computer programmers, business analysts, journalists, teachers, lawyers and Arts graduates (not sure what they do) but no trades people. The Keating Government did try to introduce a training levy to minimise the damage but the business community argued in the High Court that such a levy was unconstitutional and it was subsequently struck out.

Now comes the really interesting part. You would have thought that with all of the vacancies for skilled trades people (like LAMEs) they would be enjoying the best working conditions in the world. But the problem is that at the very same time as everything else was happening there was also a corresponding drop in union membersip and participation in industrial activities. Without the collective strength to resist work intensification and increased workplace pressure, individual employees were powerless to resist management when they wanted change.

Although the current shortage of staff means that employers will have to pay more dollars per year to get anyone, as has already been pointed out in this thread, there is far more to working than just dollars and cents. I honestly believe that the only hope for a better working future rests with the individuals willingness to join an industrial organisation (Union) and work with their colleagues for a better future. I know that unions have let people down in the past but they are only as good as the membership lets them be. Also in the past the focus has been on dollar increases in wages at times when the employer had a thousand applicants for every job. Those days are gone now and its not too late to win a better working life not just for ourselves but for the future too.

The above probably sounds a bit corny but I really believe it and see the results for myself every day (when I have to defend an employer).

[Uncommon Sense]

Does this allow companies to legitimise taking their engineering business offshore - in the PR sense at least?

"Ah yes, we are all for keeping LAME / Pilot / FA / [add here] jobs at home, but we have a skills shortage and can't fill these jobs here (for the miserable pay we are offering)"

I don't mean to trivialise the real problem, but I know how some of these performace execs will spin it.

Whilst we are at it what is the average age of Air Traffic Controllers, remembering they can retire at 50?

Well, it is definitely in the mid 40's.

[FNQTech]

Torres

Canberra are listening. You only have to read the NPRM on CASR 66, 145 etc to see that they are planning to mitigate the looming skills crisis by lowering the required experience levels for LAME certification (much the same way that the UKCAA and NZCAA have). PCT training will inevitably replace the SOE which will mean for a Group 20 aircraft - 5 weeks classroom plus 3 or so weeks hands on to get a rating. Then there is the company authorisation. While this has been a way of life for the large airlines, it will become normality for any Car145 organisation. When you are short of certification just haul in an allied tradesman (if you can afford one) and authorise him or her to certify. The biggest muddle out of the CASR 66 rewrite must be the "inherent cause" replacement for CAO 100.90. If you thought demarkation was confused before, you ain't seen nothing yet. You will need to determine the inherent cause of a defect to decide which trade group is permitted to rectify e.g. starter-generator won't come online so you send an electrical LAME to rectify, but low and behold the drive shaft has sheared, so cause is now mechanical failure!!! What happened to the KISS principle.

[Torres]

notmyC150v2. Only partly correct. The falacy of unionism has always been that it purportedly improves worker income and working conditions. That may have been the case during the industrial revolution, but the laws of supply and demand have prevailed in Australian wages and conditions for decades.

Now the wheel has turned. Australia is critically short of skilled, qualified and experienced LAMEs, diesel fitters, auto mechanics, builders, carpenters, chefs etc. Quality tradesmen are able to ask their own price. The Awards have become a farce - excessively complex and no qualified and experienced tradesman is interested in "Award rate of pay".

The university education mind set is changing. It was driven by parent and school pressure - which resulted in a plethora of university graduates, unemployed, with a HECS debt waiting to bite them when they were eventually able to gain employment.

The time has never been better for young Australians to seek an apprenticeship. Conditions are excellent, wages reasonable, competancy based training, free block course tuition, living away from home allowances, significant employer subsidies and a guarantee of immediate high paid work on completion of the qualification. And now Australia has moved into School based traineeships and apprenticeships and shortly, into mature aged accelerated apprenticeships.

How do I know? Because I employ 480 apprentices and trainees.

FNQTech. Yes....... Interesting. There always was the question of who should legally change and re connect a PT6 starter generator.

The problem is not with the self regulating airlines, but how to ensure a competent GA LAME could legally perform a wide variety of categories of aircraft maintenance - a attempt to legalise what many very competent LAME's have been doing for many years. :}

[notmyC150v2]

Torres,

I have to disagree with you on the role of unions. Whilst they are mostly known for pushing for higher wages for their members they were also behind the push for non wage improvements to working conditions. A lot of these proposed improvements would not cost the employer a lot of money (if any) but were opposed nonetheless. The fact that qualified tradespeople are now hard to get does not mean that unions are no longer relevant, its just that they need to refine their services and what they seek for their members from employers and government. For example they should be seeking to take the lead on the deskilling debate and opposing the trend to importing less qualified labour from overseas.

Congratulations for employing so many trainees and Apprentices and I hope that other employers will follow your lead. Unfortunately what employers have to blame themselves for is a shortsighted failure to train 10 - 20 years ago which we are paying for now (yourself excluded).

Another problem faced by employers which we have both touched on is the push from schools, government and parents for our kids to go to university and not complete an apprenticeship.

As for your comments about the Award system, remember that the Award is there to protect the weakest. It is a mimimum set of conditions. Therefore it will have virtually no relevance to tradespeople in any industry (except hospitality, baking etc) because they are being paid far in excess of the Award rate due to the lack of available tradespeople. But the lowest classification, I can almost promise you, gets paid no more than the rate specified in the Award.

[tinpis]

Pity they couldnt retrain lawyers into something bloody useful.

[Chimbu chuckles]

tinpis....somethings are just beyond society....like world peace:} :ouch:

[Ultralights]

I feel that employee unionism has failed in the aircraft game simply because there are so many different unions covering the different trades withing the industry. During my time at Qf i was a union delegate, and 1 unions negotiations on certain points were constantly undermined by another unions agreement on a similar point, which then gave the company a lower benchmark with which to aim for.

What is Needed is an AVIATION Indusrty union. Pilots, cabin crew have their own unions, but everything else was covered by the AWU, AMWU CFMEU, LHMU TWU and others all wanting different things for their members. hence their failure to present a united front with which to defend conditions.

[Torres]

notmyC150v2. To each his own - one of the great freedoms of our democracy. But if you had to prepare 29,000 pay packets per annum, in accordance with 37 ludicrous Federal and State Awards, you would realise what our needlessly complicated Award system has cost Australia.

"...opposing the trend to importing less qualified labour from overseas". Don't agree with you on that one either. I also employ overseas skilled labour under 457 Visas and am searching the world for experienced tradesmen. In my situation, in this little part of Australia, it is my only hope to have adequate Trade Qualified supervision of our apprentices.

Industrial relations reform can't come soon enough - then everyone, employees and employers will get a fair go.

And Mate, I also respect your right to your opinion. :ok:

[pullock]

Torres,

I understand that many of the things that you are saying are quite reasonable from your perspective, but I have to agree with notmyC150v2.

In context of the thread, we are discussing the reasons that being a LAME in Australia is becoming so damn unattractive. Sure unionism created awards that are well behind the times, but it has been industries position to take advantage of declining power within the work force to exploit employees as much as possible. The government likes to call this work place reform.

I am not a card carrying unionist, and indeed I blame the apathy of my union for many of the problems that face LAME's today. The ALAEA from what I can see has a very finite life expectancy indeed.

On the subject of imported labour, once again I would like to speak within the context of this thread. I have worked overseas in my career and I can guarantee that resulting from a number of factors, Australian LAME's are of a pretty high standard - this is just one of the many factors that keeps aviation in Australia up to the safety standards that the travelling public have enjoyed for so long. I see a massive trend toward reduction in safety in the industry now and the concept of importing engineering labour just falls right in line with this reduction. There are many industries where sure you can bring em in and they can do the job OK, but aviation requires the job to be done perfectly first time every time and there is no place for error, which is why in context I don't agree that the secret to solving the problem lies with blindly importing labour.

The self regulating airlines ARE the driving force behind reduction in safety in aviation because dollar driven big business is driven to reduce cost in every area, and safety is expensive. They will push the limits until they are stopped by either a regulator or an incident - the two negatives that could impact their brand names reputation and therefore market standing.

Lastly, you commented on legalising illegal maintenance that already happens, that this would be a good thing?????? Aviation is a highly regulated industry - and that's the way it has to be - to save peoples lives by putting barriers between economic rationalism taking priority over safety, because economic rationalism has no conscience unless it has to. I have worked in GA, and I know what goes on in some places, and I have to say that when I was there I saw the regulation as heavy handed, but in the fullness of time I have come to learn that the regulation is there to protect innocent and silly people from those who would willingly sacrifice their safety for a buck.

There is no such thing as a jack of all trades in engineering - some of the worst engineers I have met are five cat men.

Enough said.

[Torres]

pullock. Yes, my comment was a bit tongue in cheek! :\ Apologies.

I was referring to the "grey" area of, for example, what license coverage is required to change a starter generator - not to an airframe guy repairing instruments in an IFR aircraft.

Interestingly enough, a number of LAME's I know who have left the industry, have done so for three main reasons - what they see as increasing legislation, increasing personal liability and thus decreasing job security; a failure (by their employer) to provide continuing training; and frustration in maintaining a tired, ever ageing GA fleet which is generally past it's use by date.

I appreciate your point re foreign skilled workers - I am aware of the aircraft maintenance standards in certain developing countries. My involvement has been in non regulated trades - motor mechanics, carpenters etc.

[30/30 Green Light]

FNQ Tech,I think you are painting a picture with a very broad brush.PCT does not lower the experience level of the LAME.Rather what it does is establish a known baseline of experience for the LAME over a wide variety of tasks--practically.You won't get a licence with PCT for your first Group 20 either.PCT only accounts for a 25% discount on base hours in this case.The other 75% is SOE.Agreed that for the second and subsequent ratings,course + PCT = Rating.Speaking to LAME's I know who have done PCT,without exception they have been very enthusiastic about it and some have voiced the opinion that there should be NO SOE for Group 20's, only forms of PCT. "Hauling in an allied tradesman" won't be quite as easy asyou make it sound either.There are a number of competencies which are "aviation specific" (about 8 I think) that will need to be satisfactorily completed before approval as an AMT by a Part 145 organisation.The "inherent nature" of tasks will be confusing to start with and I think that there will need to be a big education programme-mainly in the airlines.Moving our out-dated regs to line up with the rest of the world and indeed ICAO,may have economic benefits for the maintenance industry in Australia and will hopefully give a better degree of portability career-wise to LAME's/AME's,remembering that our Licences are not recognised much outside the South Pacific area.Even PNG has gone 145.When all is said and done,now with the shake-up in CASA H.O,who's to say that this process is ever going to be completed anyway. Cheers, 30/30

[PILAME]

Interesting topic. I see the industry from two perspectives. I am presently an airline pilot and a LAME.
I spent the first 15 years of my career in GA mostly as a LAME and as a part time pilot. There are a few resons I chose flying. One thing is that you have to work alot of hours to earn a decent living as a LAME in GA. Because of the long hours I couldn't see myself enjoying life later in my career.
My salary as a 737 FO is significantly higher than I ever earned as a LAME and taking into account the overnights etc I still get alot more lesure time now.
There are many other things as well, like the aging fleet and pressure to keep aircraft flying that are well past there use by date. The ever changing rules and regulations etc.

Obviously everyone makes choices for different reasons but for me I couldn't see myself returning to being a full time LAME. I have also thought about how the career could be made more attractive. Unfortunately with the declining LAME community and the lack of training of AMEs for the past 20 years, the lack of new aircraft etc., there aren't any quick or easy solutions to work hours and the pressure.

[pullock]

30/30

I have worked through both the SOE system and the PCT system.

I am absolutely convinced that the PCT system is a very large compromise indeed when compared to the SOE system.

Five or six weeks in a course, then PCT some months later, and bang you have a license on an aircraft without having ever put a tool near it.

SOE requirements remain over the top but PCT is just a system that the airlines use to get guys licensed regardless of whether they are ready or not.

If the regulations in the rest of the world set lower standards than our own, then surely we should maintain our high standards of safety rather than lowering ourselves to theirs.

Australians are such followers aren't we?

[30/30 Green Light]

G'day Pullock,I have also worked through both PCT and SOE,and also seen the abuse of the SOE system.Would you not acknowledge that the granting of a rating under SOE is a very subjective thing?It depends a lot on who assesses it,and what their personal philosophy is.At least with PCT there is an approved course which covers a wide range of system topics and is totally transparent.At the end there is the oral (from CASA) which verifies the application of the theoretical knowledge gained during both theory and PCT courses.I'm not sure that I agree with you on the matter of airlines using it as a short-cut to get guys licenced.At the end of the day it is the individuals licence, and we all have a responsibility both legally and morally to be satisfied that we have sufficient knowledge before exercising the privileges of it.It is your signature which is on the bottom of the application form and that signifies your acknowledgement of your competence.I would not like to take my chances in a court of law saying "I don't believe that I was properly trained or adequately experienced" when the application form with my signature on it requesting the issue of an endorsement is sitting on my CASA file.I believe that the issue of "lower standards" is an emotive one.A certain amount of criticism being leveled at the new regs is really a result of resistance to change.Agreed, they are not perfect and experience with them will lead to further changes,but this is a global industry we are in and you can't change anything from the outside.We need to align ourselves with the best of the rest of the world and work from there to make changes.One of the problems that we as LAMEs face, is that the general understanding of the current regs we work to is at best minimal, and whilst we know where the new ones are leading us,we're not really sure where we are coming from.Change is inevitable,we need to work to make sure that it is positive,and that means we need to be objective when we view proposals,not just shoot from the hip.I guess that we may have to agree to disagree on the subject of PCT but any discussion is healthy. Cheers, 30/30

[The Original Jetpipe]

Hi All,

Sorry to steal the thread!!! but I hope you people might be able to help me out. By answering a few questions?

I am a UK JAR Licensed Engineer,in the UK and I will be moving to Australia (Sydney) in the next couple of weeks.I understand that my licenses are not valid BUT I was hoping to find work as a mechanic.

I have sent out about 7/8 C.V in the last 2 months ,to numerous Aircraft Maintainance companies in the Sydney area BUT as yet I have received NO REPLIES!!

I will be entering Australia on a "working holiday" visa. Do you think this is why I have had no replies?? Can any one offer any advice as to which companies might be worth contacting on my arrival. Or if anyone has any advice as to how to improve my chances of finding work in the Aviation Industry

Please feel free to contact me via PM.

Thanks in advance of any replies
The Original Jetpipe

[Torres]

In retrospect, I have a problem with the concept our Australian LAME's are the world's finest and imported/immigrant AME's will reduce Australia's safety standards.

I accept AME training and standards in some countries is of a lower standard than Australia, however I can not accept that as a generalisation for all countries. Certainly our Australian legislative and regulatory systems are different - although CASA are endeavouring to "harmonise" Australian legislation with other major countries.

Surely an AME from Europe, USA etc could be equally as competant as an Australian LAME, after adequate training in Australian regulatory requirements and standards?