New Pilots

[hencloud]

I read a lot of mails about the problems of becoming a pilot. training, money, time etc.

This might be a sobering tale to all those wanbees.

I completted my PPL in 1998 and my instructors in 2000.

Since then and about 30k later the goal posts have changed to the JAA system which means although i can instruct no-one is really interested because I dont have my CPL. I have to stump up another 10k to get my commercials which i cannot afford. I still dont have a full time instructing job which i have been chasing since 2000. My point being that you can chase and chase and spend lots of money but there will always be some barrier in your way or some shift in the law. There will always be those people that end up having to go back to the checkouts.

How the hell do people afford to do this now at 60K? I have found that the whole dynamics have now changed. Those that can afford it are older late 30s or 40s. There is no loyalty from the employers, gone are the young instructors. Now peolple are coming in with 150k and buying themselves right to the top with 5 or 6 ratings and an IR. What hope do the people on loans and scrimping and saving have. None.

Hencloud

[badbreath]

How can you be an instructor with only a recreational license..

[Whirlygig]

... because in the olden days (sorry Hencloud, I'm not casting nasturtiums here as to your age!!) one could have a UK CAA PPL licence, build more hours and get the Instructor Rating (Restricted) BEFORE getting a CPL. It was a very common route for CPL hour builders to take.

JAA regs changed all that.

Cheers

Whirlygig

[badbreath]

Thanks for that, i take it you now have to have a cpl to instruct and a certain amount of hours flight experiance. Just seems wrong been taught by someone with only a ppl licence.

[Whirlygig]

Yes, you have to have CPL and 250 hours before you take the Instructor Course.

However, there are quite a few good instructors with "only" a PPL. They have the hours and experience, just not the formal qualification. They are Restricted Instructors though; I'm not sure but I think it means that they cannot send a student off solo?

Perhaps someone else could enlighten us as this regime was also before my time!

Cheers

Whirlygig

[knocked]

can they get paid or do they fall into the cant fly for hire or reward bracket

[Whirlybird]

Up until about the year 2000 the route to becoming an instructor was to get a PPL(H), then 200 hours PIC, then do an FI course. You were then an AFI (Assistant Flying Instructor), and could do everything except send students on a first solo or (I think) first solo cross-country. You could upgrade to become a QHI, though I'm not sure exactly how...it was slightly before my time too. The switch to JAA meant that a CPL(H) was needed in order to do an FI course. But all those who had the old FI rating were given grandfather rights and kept it. Many of them have been instructing now for a long time, and are very experienced and very good. Some still don't have CPLs, though a lot did eventually get them. And yes, they are paid.

hencloud,
I've not been in this industry long...got my FI rating in April 2003. But the one thing I don't think I've ever been asked is whether I have a CPL. I wonder if there's some other reason why you're finding it so hard to find a job. I want part time work, and I keep finding schools want a fulltime instructor. Maybe they just find an excuse if your face doesn't fit...for both of us. :{ Anyway, there's an ad for a fulltime instructor wanted in the South-East, in the latest Heli-Data, so that might be worth a try.

[Martin1234]

You can still get an instructor rating issued with only a JAR PPL-H but you do need "theoretical CPL(H) knowledge" as per JAR-FCL 2.335(b);

Before being permitted to begin an approved course of training for a FI(H) rating an applicant shall have:

(b) met the knowledge requirements for a CPL(H) as set out in Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 2.470

If you don't have your CPL(H) though, you won't be able to instruct for CPL(H) but an IRI(H) shouldn't be any problem to get as a PPL'er;

JAR-FCL 2.310 Instructor ratings - General

(a) Pre-requisites. All instructors shall hold at least the licence rating and qualification for which instruction is being given (unless speficied otherwise) and shall be antitled to act as pilot-in-command of the aircraft during suich training.

See also JAR-FCL 2.395. Interesting that you only need a PPL-H for an IRI(H) but you do need a professional licence in order to get an SFI(H) (synthetic flight instructor) issued, as per JAR-FCL 2.410.

[hencloud]

Thanks for the replies.

Whirlybird you are probably right. Actually quite a depressing thought that you can go through all the training and spend all the money, be an excellent pilot and still not make it because your face doesn't fit.

Maybe they should include in the medical!

[Camp Freddie]

hey Mr H.

I still dont have a full time instructing job which i have been chasing since 2000

I suspect that along the way, that you have been offered trial lessons, or the odd actual training flight, probably on the weekend, also probably when it conflicts with something your wife/girlfriend/family or you wanted to do. maybe at an inconvenient airfield with considerable travelling, who knows

I am now luckily a full time offshore salaried pilot. but my very first flying job was a PPL instructor in the late 90's and the CFI told me that "I could do the odd Trial lesson, as long as it took nothing from anybody else" and he wasnt joking progress was slow, very slow, keeping within the 28 day currency for insurance was a problem.

following on from that I did no more than 20 trial lessons in the next 6 months and worked a full time non aviation job, but I persistently hung around even going to the school every weekend to remind them I was still there, whether there was work or not, and pushed to do more and it did eventually work out. but for 3 years my earnings were low, real low

But I like many others went the extra mile, cancelled everything at short notice if they gave me a TL , was available every weekend saturday and sunday and many weekdays too.

I am cynical, but suspect that you havent been trying hard enough or making enough sacrifices.

I used to at one time organise a flying program at one school and actually was amazed at how hard it was to get some new inexperienced instructors to do the work, they would say "its too much travelling for 1 TL" or "I am busy that day" or "I must have a family day every sunday", very quickly I stopped offering those guys work, did they want to be pilots or not ! not it seemed

This thing about a lack of a CPL is a cop out, no reasonable school would care, in fact many would like it cos you wouldnt be wittering on about doing charters all the time, like many new low time CPL's who I wouldn't put in charge of my daughters bicycle, let alone a Jetranger or similar ! (with or without passengers as they are a danger to themselves and others IMHO, and are normally a heartbeat away from cooking the engine anyway)

everyone who is flexible enough should be able to get "some" work to get started. but how hard did you try really ?

be honest with us?

regards

CF

p.s dont tell me I am having a bad day, like someone did when I felt strongly about something on another post. I am having a perfectly good rational day, I am a bit bored however of low timers though who want to jump straight to the good stuff without doing their porridge like me and most of my contemparies did at a time when there were 10 unemployed flight instructors on every street corner.

[Whirlybird]

Camp Freddie,

You are absolutely right of course. I hadn't looked at it like that, because I was so delighted to be given anything at all that I didn't (and still don't) resent giving up weekends and so on. And having a flexible non-aviation job to fall back on does help a lot. But if I think about it....

The first school I went to said they didn't need me, but if I could find my own students I could teach them there. So I advertised madly, made my own website, and found a few people. The school then realised after a bit that students liked me and came back, so I suddenly found I'd jumped the queue a bit for any trial lessons which came along.

When I started where I am now, I was promised two days in the week. It ended up being one day, trial lessons only, on Saturdays! But they're about to get another R22, I have a student who wants to do the whole course with me, and so it looks like I'm about to get a whole lot more work, possibly even more than I want.

And I suppose I forgot to mention that I'm driving nearly two hours each way to get there! :(

The only thing I've turned down was a 20 minute trial lesson at extremely short notice from a school three hours drive away!!! They had heard about me and were desperate; someone had gone sick or something. But I explained, apologised profusely, and said if it had been an hour I'd have done it, and to remember me in the future. And maybe I should have taken it anyway....

Yep, flexibility and patience are probably the keys. And being nice, pleasant, and getting on with absolutely everyone. Ability to fly comes way down the list; we can all do that.

The more I think about it, the more I agree - good post, Camp Freddie. :ok:

[Ivor E Tower]

Camp Freddie good post.

When I started in 95 I would grab every bit of flying I could. I don`t think I had a weekend off for most of 96, even if the weather was bad I would go in and answer phones etc. If you want to get anywhere you have to take every opportunity that`s available.

In the last few years I`ve met a few people who don`t want to bother with the smaller simpler helicopter types or trial lessons etc.
They want to jump straight into Twin flying and instructing, some are lucky and have the money to be able to get all the ratings they need. Luckily most operators want experience rather than ratings.

However there are always operators out there who will choose the pilot with all the ratings and no experience over someone with a lot of experience and no ratings (twin etc). They see it as saving money.

I personally would choose someone who has shown dedication and was prepared to build up their experience rather than just go out and pay for it.

[hencloud]

Thank you all for your posts. You are all right. Nice to have a good moan once in a while though.

[Whirlybird]

hencloud,

Nice to have a good moan once in a while though.

I agree with that too. :ok:

I omitted to mention that I left the first school because the QHI hated my guts. :( No idea why. The nicer I was to him the worse it got, so I figured "victim mentality" doesn't help with bullies, and started sticking up for myself. And it got even worse!! My friends told me I was crazy to stay there when I had another job, and they were right...and that's when I started checking out other schools. Hence the two hour drive each way. :{ But at least now I leave on a high after having spent the day flying, rather than seething in impotent fury from being treated like ****!

[Constable Clipcock]

What hope do the people on loans and scrimping and saving have. None.
I disagree. It's all a matter of how much time you're willing to put in over the long haul, and not quitting.

I got mine at my own expense, on a low income, with no loans or financial assistance of any sort.

From zero time to...

...first solo: 4 months....

...PPL: 12 years....

...CPL/IR: 21 years.

[hencloud]

Whirlybird

I think we went to the same school!!!

[Reefdog]

if i was an employer i would want to know if my employee can;-

put the club to the floor immediately..( rrpm bleds off very very quickly, believe me)

good on the sticks ( no making porridge)

hold a heading and height.

has excellent awareness of everything around the machine...

i have trained people that are cpl and atpl drivers...you can pull C/Bs or roll off 1 engine in twin engine machines and they dont even know u have done it , for a good 3to 4 minutes.... thats criminal and will kill..
put them in imc conditions and you have alot of dead pax and your company is gone..

so i dont blame operators that are concerned about who they hire..

you think because you have passed the flight test for what ever, that you can fly..hey ive been flying as atpl since 1983 and i am still learning. it never stops

but i will say.... i take my hat off and buy anyone that sticks to it a beer..because it is a great careerand well worth the effort in the long run....
but you have to been a gypsy to succeed

all the best