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Memetic
22nd Nov 2004, 21:21
ITV news due to run a story on an aircraft based attack on Canary Wharf having been foiled.

- I know posting this is as bad as a newspaper headline on a aviation story.

FlapsOne
22nd Nov 2004, 21:35
Just watched it.

Thoroughly irresponsible reporting with no fact or evidence whatsoever.

As a lead item on the news, this was just guesswork and the reporter continually saying 'I was told...............'

Waste of air time!!

Guern
22nd Nov 2004, 22:11
I know people who were told that self abuse would make them blind.

To date non of them have a white stick.

What a load of scaremongering media twaddle!

ID90
22nd Nov 2004, 22:39
The reporter said that he had chose the timing of this report, but perhaps it was because some of the nationals are running it tomorrow. An opportunity to 'steal their thunder' perhaps?:rolleyes:

Jerricho
23rd Nov 2004, 02:20
Anybody got a link?!

(Just so I can get my blood boiling ;) )

Flypuppy
23rd Nov 2004, 02:49
http://www.itv.com/news/index_808807.html

The disclosure comes as the Government prepares to unveil a series of tough law-and-order Bills in tomorrow's Queen's Speech,

Well there is a surprise... :hmm:

tyne
23rd Nov 2004, 04:37
I'm getting sick of this hack bashing. Nick Robinson found a story, and reported on what he found. Shold he have ignored it? Not reported on it? Waited for an official government press release? I don't think so. If what Mr Robinson reports is the truth then well done on a good story mate! If I as a journalist had ignored that story, I'd be in for a chat with the editor this morning. On the same level, if my facts were wrong, I'd be in for a rollocking too.

So if you were journalists and you came across this information please tell me what you would do?

Dan

eal401
23rd Nov 2004, 07:25
So if you were journalists and you came across this information please tell me what you would do?
As if a journo basher could actually DO the job!!! LOL!!!!

dusk2dawn
23rd Nov 2004, 08:31
http://www.itv.com/news/index_808807.html
Well, perhaps ITV didn't like the story after all as it is now a file not found."

eal401
23rd Nov 2004, 08:40
http://www.itv.com/news/index_957889.html

ORAC
23rd Nov 2004, 08:48
Found a story?
Got briefed by one of Tony´s spin merchants before the Queen´s speech you mean......

Gainesy
23rd Nov 2004, 09:11
"Sussex Police were praised last night after no bank robberies took place across the county yesterday..."

:rolleyes:

Memetic
23rd Nov 2004, 10:01
When I said, - I know posting this is as bad as a newspaper headline on a aviation story.

I was anticipating being critisised for not posting more info, being in accurate etc. At the time I was posting to flag up the story i had just seen trailed as the lead item for the news so I had no more info.

Having seen the item I too thought the story itself was weaker, especially for a lead than the build up suggested. The only new information being that sources have confirmed an aircraft attact on Canary Wharf was foiled rather than just expected and the threat minimised by extra security (I'm not getting into the nail clippers debate now.)

Had I been the journalist in recipt of that information fromn a reliable source, I'd have run with it. It's newsworthy, just short on the sort of facts which when you think about it, for security reasons should not be broadcast even if they were availible - no matter how fustrating that is for us as an audience or for the journalist!

Memetic

Konkordski
23rd Nov 2004, 10:36
Typical...complaints about lack of information, from a website where people wet themselves and start insisting on "discretion" and closed-door discussions if anyone even begins to talk about security issues.

I suppose you think that ITN just has all-inclusive access to the innermost details of the British Security Service, and therefore isn't doing its job because it won't tell you about them?

stagger
23rd Nov 2004, 10:48
Thwarted attacks?

I guess they must have arrested some pretty bad folks. Presumably we can look forward to some high profile trials, convictions and lengthy prison sentences for the terrorists.

Don't hold your breath though....

Periodically these "thwarted attack" and "terror plot arrest" stories emerge. Can anyone recall any convictions?

Bear in mind that under the Terrorism Act 2000 it is a "terrorist offence" if someone "collects or makes a record of information of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism or he possesses a document or record containing information of that kind" unless he can prove he has "a reasonable excuse for his action or possession" i.e. guilty until proven innocent.

Consequently, some of the high profile arrests for "terrorist offences" may be arrests of people who simply possess documents "likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism" such as material related to aviation. For example, SID or STAR charts (freely downloadable from NATS) could be considered "useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism."

A "thwarted plot" may involve the arrest of someone possessing such documents who cannot prove he has a "reasonable excuse for possessing them" (I wonder if spotter or sim user would count?).

Don't get me wrong - I do believe there are people out there plotting terrorist attacks on the UK. However, I don't believe that arresting someone who can't prove he has a legitimate use for documents necessarily means a real plot has been thwarted.

BenThere
23rd Nov 2004, 10:56
Oh, so these guys just probably had some Canary Wharf tourist brochure and serviettes with airline logos on them.

Phew! I'll just go back to sleep. Everything's all right.

Memetic
23rd Nov 2004, 12:25
I suppose you think that ITN just has all-inclusive access to the innermost details of the British Security Service, and therefore isn't doing its job because it won't tell you about them?

Er... if that was aimed at me, quite the opposite!

I said...facts which when you think about it, for security reasons should not be broadcast even if they were availible


There is nice comment piece on this story at The Register : http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/23/terror_scare_spin/

Arkroyal
23rd Nov 2004, 12:26
Just Bliar and Blinkett's way of worrying the great unwashed into continuing their sleepwalk into a police state.

Can't wait to sign up to an intrusive ID card now! Make us all safer:yuk:

Jerricho
23rd Nov 2004, 14:43
I'm sorry I asked now. :(

Memetic
23rd Nov 2004, 15:35
Apparently these cards are hi-tech.

Any day now Blunkett will tell us the truth about how in case of emergency they will unfold into a nano-tech based personal shield from all ills.

The design is simple, the card hinges about the middle, and a series of flaps are revealed, these are then positioned across the bridge of the nose,covering the eyes and going into the ears and mouth.

This will ensure we cannot see or hear anything to worry us, and in case we can still think we will not be able to say anything either...


...well this post did get moved to JB :D

HiSpeedTape
24th Nov 2004, 15:12
Oops! Best throw away my Airbus FCOMs and Boeing AOMs in case the Feds come a calling in the wee small hours:E

Teddy Robinson
24th Nov 2004, 23:41
If there was a plot, why can we not have the details reported, numbers arrested etc. ? some specifics would be nice rather than this tabloid/quazi-political clap-trap.

Personally I have no wish to live in the climate of fear generated by this type of non-news reporting ... thats for our friends stateside.

We lived through the annual threats of republican bombing campaigns aimed at Christmas shoppers, and came out the other side, Canary wharf was succesfully targeted some years ago by the same groups, and now we are treated to uncorroborated unattributable leaks by unspecified individuals masquerading as hard news .... TOSH :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Arkroyal
25th Nov 2004, 07:12
Quite right, Teddy.

There are no details, Isuspect, because there was no specific plot. This [email protected] has been invented to make us feel sfer under Labour (qv Hain's twaddle of yester-morning).

As you say, we lived through a lot, and kept a sense of proportion.

Not allowed in the grave new world of Bush and Bliar.

DuckDodgers
25th Nov 2004, 12:30
It is all part of President Blairs great plan to get re-elected by scaring people into the "you don't know how close we came syndrome." What's is even more amuzing, if it was not to comical, is the this government (in loose terms of the word) claims we are safer now than we have been? How pre-tel do they come to this conclusion? Answers and opinions if you would be so kind.

HighWing
25th Nov 2004, 22:35
As a foreign national who has been resident in the UK for 25 years (abiding the law and paying my tax), I wonder if I will be required to wear a big Star of David and surrender my property to the state under the new proposals...

FFFlyer
26th Nov 2004, 05:37
I remember all the derogatory comments on this board about the US and the UK authorities when BA cancelled the flights to Saudi. Shortly after we had the terrrorist outrages at Khobar etc and the targetting and killing several Westerners. Seems like they were correct in cancelling the flights after all.

Obviously this news was leaked at a politically expedient time. However, it's only a question of time before the Uk has it's very own 9/11.

The UK is a free country, no need for an exit visa. If it doesn't suit you are free to leave, unlike several other countries I can think of. In fact they don't even check your passport now when you leave the UK if you are a non-resident.
Incidentally that's a HUGE security flaw. Who's to say the person whose name is on the ticket is the person who boards? I'm sure it isn't the lax in the US. If so, it makes a nonsense of passenger profiling!

stagger
26th Nov 2004, 09:01
Wake up! Wake up! Be afraid! Be very, very afraid!

Calm down, calm down, go back to sleep, everything's going to be just fine. It's all under control, go back to sleep.

Wake up! Wake up! Be scared! Be terrified! There could be a dirty bomb under your bed.

Calm down, calm down, go back to sleep, we've got everything under control. Don't worry, trust us - we'll make sure you stay safe.

Wake up! Wake up! Be fearful. Be nervous. Be suspicious of everyone (except us).

Calm down, calm down, go back to sleep. How many times do we have to tell you? It's all going to be just fine, trust us!

Wake up! Wake up! ....

etc etc ad nauseum



(please note - I believe there is a real threat but am just extremely cynical about the way the government is manipulating our fears to further their policy objectives)

WE Branch Fanatic
26th Nov 2004, 09:48
This thread from the military aircrew forum (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=111156) and particularly the last page, demonstrates why I think it ridiculous for the Government to try to make defence against terrorism an election issue.

FFFlyer
26th Nov 2004, 15:10
Couldn't agree more. Like also giving large defence contracts to the French and anyone else in preference to UK companies. Mind you as someone pointed out the Germans will never attack us again because if the bomb London they will damage one of their largest investments outside Gernmany, Thames Water, which supplies all London and much of the SE with water services.

Another interesting thing I just spotted, wrt to SIM cards. Apparently the many of the terrorists were using Swiss SIMs as you could purchase them anon. The Swiss have just stopped that.
First time I purchased a SIM in the UK about 3-4 yrs ago I had to give all my details including a Uk address. This summer I bought one, no details needed for cash. Totally anonymous. Hmmm....

Onan the Clumsy
26th Nov 2004, 15:18
it's only a question of time before the Uk has it's very own 9/11. Like the Nat West Tower?

Teddy Robinson
28th Nov 2004, 12:42
Some figures quoted in today's Independent under the headline "Was it (Canary Wharf) the target of an al-quaida plot or a cynical exercise in fear mongering ?":

A survey of 14000 consumers across 13 European countries conducted online during October showed 25% of UK respondants listed terrorism as their top concern, compared to a European average of 13%.

The article failed to specifically answer the question it had posed, however the "information" on which this so called story appears to have been based may well have come from a computer captured 2 years ago, on which the information is believed to have been over 4 years old.

Parrallels with the WMD fiasco seem plain to see ... never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

So as a society, the UK becomes more addicted to fear, fearfulness, suspicion and xenophobia, seen that model somewhere before ?

Stagger has it just about right..

stagger
28th Nov 2004, 15:16
Does anyone remember the "Ricin Plot" arrests in Wood Green, London back in 2003?

The story was that "traces of ricin" were found during a raid on a "a suspected ring of terrorists" and six men were arrested.

Was talking to someone from the area last night - apparently some time ago there was a story in their local paper. It seems that all the men were eventually released without charge and in fact no ricin or equipment to make it was found.

This of course wasn't reported in the tabloids or on the national news.

FFFlyer
2nd Dec 2004, 05:13
Actually they were charged - or maybe the BBC is telling lies again:

Four people arrested during the London raid (5 January) were remanded in custody by magistrates.

Samir Feddag, 26, and his brother Mouloud Feddag, 18, Mustapha Taleb, 33, and a 17-year-old youth, who could not be named for legal reasons, were charged in connection with an alleged plot to use ricin under the Terrorism Act 2000 & charged under the Chemical Weapons Act 1996 with "being concerned in the development or production of chemical weapons".

Mustapha Taleb was also charged with an additional offence under the Terrorism Act dating back to on or before the 26 September 2002.

A fifth man, Nasreddine Fekhadji, was charged with two offences under the Forgery and Counterfeiting Act.

Incidentaly as a result of information gathered in this raid ploice raided an address in Manchester and a police officer was fatally stabbed. Pehaps you would like to tell his widow they were really nice people persecuted by the facist Blair government.

As to the 'on line survey'- that's not what the Gallup poll showed:

The most concern about the world's future security is shown by Western Europeans although there is a significant decrease from last year’s results when almost two thirds (64%) believed the next generation would live in a less safe world compared to only just over half (55%) in the region who feel this is the case now.

Within Western Europe it is significant that Germany, where leaders were critical of the Iraq War, are the most pessimistic in the region – 63% think the next generation will live in a less safe world, but they are by no means alone, majorities in most countries in this region (UK included) feel the world will be a more dangerous place.

stagger
2nd Dec 2004, 07:14
FFFlyer,

Sorry I was wrong - they were originally charged back in January 2003. That's when the article you have cited is dated. But according to the story in the local newspaper they have since been released. No trial, no convictions for ricin related offences.

I didn't say they were nice people, I didn't say they were persecuted. I simply pointed out that the initial arrests were hyped in the media - but it turns out there was actually little evidence of a "Ricin Plot."

I used this case to illustrate the point that there is generally a lot of publicity about "terror plot" arrests but very few of these lead to any convictions for terrorist offences. Consequently, it does call into the question claims that the security services have actually foiled or thwarted a real plot.