Leg Room

[DerekWarrior1]

I am 6'4" short with a 34+" inside leg measurment. When travelling long haul I always (in advance if possible) request a seat with extra leg room but am usually unlucky. My last trip, JFK to LHR was so uncomfortable that I have now given up long haul trips, I just can't face them. (Last year Her Indoors Who Must Be Obeyed At All Times Without Question) went to Canada on her own to see her family). My argument is this; Airlines must, quite rightly, make special arrangements for handicapped passengers. I feel that similar arrangements should be put in place for folks in my situation. My height is not my fault and I have no other , self - imposed, size problems - I am in proportion for my height at around 15 stone. I would be interesetd to hear other folks views, especially airline proffesionals, as to how I stand (no pun intended) as I feel that I am missing out unfairly.

Thanks, Del

[redfred]

You could always buy a business class ticket

[DerekWarrior1]

redfred, like 99% of the population, I can't afford business class travel.

[redfred]

Virgin offer a service whereby you can pay extra for the exit row seats, but as there are probably about only 6 seats with extra leg room on a long haul flight and there are say 200 people in economy everyone and his brother asks for the seat so I think its just first come first served

[DerekWarrior1]

I hear what you say but my point is that I feel the carriers should make special provision for folks of abnormal height. I can't help my length any more than a handicapped person can help their affliction yet I am being penalised. I once flew an Americam Airline (!) jammed in cattle class in absoulute bloody agony and the three seats by the starboard side exit with ten feet of leg room were occupied by, wait for it, three of this Amercan Airline (!) cabin staff on a freebee to the UK. This was disclosed to me by a young junior member of the cabin crew who said she was embarrased and disgusted but there was nothing she could do.

[Globaliser]

Can I suggest BA's World Traveller Plus, or Virgin's Premium Economy? I don't know much about VS, but you can usually get BA's product for £200 per sector more than the bottom economy fare. At sale times, this often comes down to a supplement of £150.

The product is worth it, especially for someone like you who's tall. It's not just economy with a bigger, better seat, and deeper pitch - although that's all that the airline can properly sell it as. You also get a quiet, calm and rather more sophisticated cabin, plus (usually) cabin crew who will do one or two little extra things for you that they wouldn't do for normal economy pax. (The last one I was on, there was a glass or two of champagne walking back from Club World, and one or two plates of cheese and biscuits.)

Looking at it from the end that you started with, the main problem with what you suggest is verifying the need for a special seat in advance, and then deciding on prioritisation - if you had 12 seats on the aircraft that had the extra pitch for tall people, how do you give them out? Get all the pax to stand in a height-ordered line at the gate, and give them to the tallest 12? And what if there were 12 pax each at 6'4", and each of them travelling with their averagely-tall spouse?

The problems are not insoluble, but I think that you can see how devising policies and procedures would be complex and difficult - and the complaints would still be legion.

As for your experience with the staff on the freebie: There's only one lesson, which most of us should have learned long ago. Don't fly on N- registered aircraft unless there is truly, truly no alternative.

[DerekWarrior1]

Globaliser, Know what you mean about N regs - had some truly terrible experiences. Probably the worst airline I ever flew on was the old Try Walking Across before its eventual demise. On the other hand I flew a few times with Piedmont both trans - pond and within the USA before it was swallowed up and found them to be excellent. Actually flew on a Piedmont 767 on the company's last service between LAX and Charlotte. Only about 50 of us on board and the champagne was flowing - arrived at Charlotte a little worse for wear! Another awful one was Hawiian between LAX and Honolulu in a beat up old L-1011. Dreadful service and surrounded by dozens of strident Americans going on holiday. And this after a five hour delay at LAX 'cos of a faulty hold door, thus giving plenty of time for our cousins to hit the bar! Truly awful trip.

[apaddyinuk]

BA now offer a great system where you can check in online the night before you fly so why not do that and see if you can get your exit row seats that way! Not sure if they are actually released online as usually the check-in agent needs to see anyone in the exit row but you never know!!!

[Romeo Delta]

Derek,

As I am 6'6" and over 300 lbs (or 2m and 140kgs), I can truly relate to your dilemma. I can say that the best long-haul airline for seat pitch is Air New Zealand (a full 2" more than anyone else I've found; I can even put the tray table all the way down and it's not resting on my knees). And as Air NZ is rarely 100% full, I usually ask if they can block off the seat next to me, and 99% they can do it (and the one time they didn't, a VERY attractive young lady sat next to me, so it wasn't all bad).

Finnair also has a pretty comfortable economy class.

As for others, you're right, it's pretty bad out there in economy class. I've found if you're in a good city and relatively nice to the staff, and ask politely if there's ANTHING they can do to help you out, there is a chance for redemption. Using that tactic on several trips, I've been upgraded at the door as my boarding pass was being scanned ("hold on, sir, a seat just came available"). Thank them profusely and have a more comfortable seat.

Just my .02 (gotta go to the bank and change that back into US money...). Best of luck to you!

RD

[DerekWarrior1]

Thanks RD. Bloody Hell!!! 6'6", I thought I had probs!!!!!!!!!

Del


PS I went to New Zealand once, it was closed.

ONLY JOKING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

[TightSlot]

DerekWarrior1 I just wanted to make sure that I understood your post. Are you suggesting that there either is, or should be, legislation to ensure that you obtain the seat that you obviously require?

I'm not taking a view on this - simply trying to make sure that I've understood your post clearly. If you are referring to legislation, then maybe we should try and get an opinion from Flying Lawyer or some such qualified person?

------------------------------------------------------

Just out of interest, an interesting point was raised today. On a recent flight, two passengers had prebooked extra legroom seats in an exit row. On boarding one was discovered to be affected by dwarfism (I believe, and hope, that is the correct phrase). When challenged by a Crew member as to whether or not she could operate the exit in an emergency, that passenger took considerable offence (the xleg had been booked for her partner) and insisted that she could operate the exit. Since dwarfism is not classed as a disability, and she could reach the door handle, she was allowed to remain there, although not all involved were comfortable with this. Just thought I'dd mention it to demonstrate that there are problems at the other extreme as well.

[DerekWarrior1]

TightSlot (interesting handle BTW), I absolutely take on board (another pun) what you say. The point of my post was to stimulate discussion on a problem which afflicts 1000s of travellers. I suppose the bottom line is that economy class on just about every carrier is just too cramped and I feel there is a groundswell of opinion which, eventually, will get the situation improved. Your mention of the safety issue is very valid and as a PPL I fully agree. However, I feel that the legroom problem far outweighs the number of occasions when someone near an exit is so vertically challenged that they may not be able to open the door. The whole issue of pax comfort needs addressing and as a wind of change is blowing through the industry this might be an oportune time to do it.

Del

[seacue]

American Airlines (AA, the company) has had More Room Throughout Coach for some years now. It really is a couple of inches more seat pitch.

However, they announced last year that the "more room" would disappear from their 757s and A300s. I recently noted that the "more room" symbol has entirely disppeared for all flights departing after 1st Jan 2005, no matter what aircraft.

Travel AA before they convert all their planes back to tight seating. That will probably take a year or two - pot luck until then.

[WHBM]

I hear what you say but my point is that I feel the carriers should make special provision for folks of abnormal height. I can't help my length any more than a handicapped person can help their affliction yet I am being penalised.
At 6'1" I am 3 inches shorter than you. I make business trips from the UK to Australia in Economy and have never felt any problem.

Meanwhile a former partner, at 5'3" and thin, flew LAX to LHR in the same Y cabin I had recently used and she complained about "sardine class" and all the other stale stereotypes.

On any say 747 flight with about 350 pax there are about 20 exit row seats, about 200 who want one, and about 100 who think they have some divine right to one, using a wide variety of justifications. Exit row seats should be assigned first to any travelling airline crew who are current in all the exacuation training so they know how to handle things. I'm not one, by the way. The standard legroom available is now well known. That is what you are buying. If you don't want it don't buy it.

[speedbird_heavy]

The standard legroom available is now well known. That is what you are buying. If you don't want it don't buy it.

So what are the taller persons supposed to do whan they need to fly somewhere? Pay an extra £1500 for a J class seat when they want to pay £200 like you or I?

[Bealzebub]

Economy class is a product. It might vary from airline to airline in some small measure. If it doesn't fit you then you either put up with it or buy something else. It is the same for most products. Many cars are too small for tall people it doesn't mean they have to substitute something more expensive or in restricted supply for those that are too tall.

Do what the wide people have to do and buy two seats. Pay for a more comfortable class of seat. Put up with the discomfort. Try the leg room seat lottery. All of these options are open to you. The problem here is that you don't fit a standard product, and that product is costed on being a standard fit. If you want something that is comfortable and does fit then you are unfortunetaly going to have pay for it along with the people who are too wide, claustrophobic, or choose to travel in a better environment. It may not be your preferred option, it may be unaffordable, it may mean you elect not to travel. Again, the airline is selling a defined product at a set price. If you don't like it buy elsewhere or don't buy at all.

On the subject of exit seats, these would have the same pitch as every other seat if most commercial carriers had they way. That would yield more revenue per aircraft. The fact is that the positioning of doors and legislative requirements mean a few seats have greater legroom. Obviously these seats are very popular and demand for them far outweighs the supply. There are classes of passengers for whom age or physical limitations would normally preclude their being allocated such seats. That still leaves the majority of passengers on a flight qualifying for the allocation. Normally such seats are not allocated prior to check-in, so that staff can ensure they are properly allocated. The earlier you check-in, the better your chance of obtaining such a seat. Obviously this is a bit of a lottery, but you take your chance.

Finally, some airlines have recognized a market for an economy product with greater legroom. They offer this at a premium cost. In reality if all airlines were to increase their legroom to this level of revised seat pitch the price per unit would rise accordingly as the number of seats (available yield) would obviously fall. If you want or need the guaranteed space you are going to have to pay for it. You can't expect something for nothing.

[speedbird_heavy]

If seats are set to a standard size then why is there so much variation in pitch and width in Y class from different airlines?

e.g.
My Travel 763. 28" seat pitch.
Air New Zealand 767. 35" seat pitch.

IMHO it is a form of discrimination.

[Romeo Delta]

Being a tall or big guy does not have many advantages that everyone thinks it does. Sure, I can reach the higher cupboards in my house, but I have to duck through doors or under light fixtures (and don't get me started on ceiling fans). I admit I did buy a more expensive car to fit into (not a fan of smaller cars anyway).

So, for you "shorties" out there, go ahead and revel in the fact that you can sit comfortably in that economy seat. But if you're wondering why it won't recline, that's me with my knees against the seatback saying, "Sorry, you're just going to have to sit upright for the next 8 hours. If you want to recline, go lie in the aisle..." :p

Life isn't always fair, this I know... So instead of making it fairer for everyone, shall we go ahead and make it UN-fairer for everyone? :hmm:

Hmmm... Let's marinate on THAT for a while. :zzz:

RD
Currently sitting in Seoul waiting for my next flight to Tokyo...

[DerekWarrior1]

RD, Agree with you. On balance wouldn't mind being a couple of inches shorter for numerous reasons. e.g have cracked my head on beams in country pubs on numerous occasions and always been a problem getting trousers and jackets long enough (though these days seems a bit better). Also, I'm a biker and anything over 70-80 miles on a sports bike means a stop for a stretch. Pity the poor bloke I was in the police force with - 6'9" and size 16 shoes! He always wanted me to take him flying but the poor buggar literally couldn't get into the PA28! Oddly enough, I've never had too much problem with cars except for the occasional problem with head room in a couple of coupes.Suffer with a bit of arthritis in the shoulders these days which, apparently , is quite common in tall people.

Del

[PAXboy]

Air New Zealand 767. 35" seat pitch.
My Travel 763. 28" seat pitch.
Without knowing the distance of the sectors operated by these a/c, it is not really possible to make a comparison. Some 74's do very short hops.

I am fortunate in being an average short ar$e and not bothered by most seating. If travelling long haul, I can reccomend VS Premium Economy. Yes, it is more expensive but Yes it is more better!! The price is not as great as for Upper Class. If you have any kind of FFM scheme with those that have the PE/WT+/etc type of cabin, then buying a standard Y ticket and upgrading with FFMs is the cheapest way to get there. I gather that SAS also have this category of cabin but have not done long haul with them.

It will be interesting to see if AA do cut back on their Y seating pitch as it is a USP and one friend now only travels AA because of this. If they do cut back to standard pitches, then I think that any chance of a general revision in the Y-cabin product, that DW1 thinks is in the air [sorry!] would then be out for another seven years or so.

[slim_slag]

Derek,

If you fly LHR-JFK a fair bit and can rack up 25k miles in a calendar year there is a carrier which will automatically put you in a seat towards the front with around 37" of pitch, and also automatically block out the seat next to you until it's absolutely needed. All on the cheapest ticket too. Unfortunately their planes are on the N-register, and you don't do that :rolleyes:, but then your loss is my gain as I don't have you taking that blocked out seat next to me. (Not that it bothers me, as they will usually (>50%) op-upgrade me if the flight is that full)

[MadsDad]

Even being in an escape aisle seat doesn't necessarily help. Flew to Canada a couple of years ago with my wife and we were allocated escape aisle seats (don't know why, must have been polite/smiled sweetly) even though we are average sort of heights (me 6ft, she 5ft 6). The third seat head been allocated to a 6ft 6 bloke who needed the extra legroom.

The problem was his seat was nearest the door and in front of it was the door sill sticking out (huge great thing, I assume it contains the emergency slide) so he actually didn't have any extra space. (After take-off my wife swapped seats with him since she was comfortable with the space and it gave her a window seat, so everyone ended up happy).

[speedbird_heavy]

Without knowing the distance of the sectors operated by these a/c, it is not really possible to make a comparison. Some 74's do very short hops

Im sure that both VZ and NZ's 763's operate flights of similar distance. e.g. upto 8 hours.;)

[eal401]

Exit row seats should be assigned first to any travelling airline crew who are current in all the exacuation training so they know how to handle things.
I take it we'd be screwed then if none of those individuals were travelling..... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Bealzebub]

No you wouldn't because the operating crew are there for that purpose. The point that was being made was that positioning crew are trained in the procedures, and would better contribute in such an unfortunate occurance.

It might vary from type and company, but I have never seen it written that any passenger has to occupy an exit row seat. The only stipulation is that certain catergories of passenger shouldn't.

[eal401]

No you wouldn't because the operating crew are there for that purpose.
Right. So, if a plane crashes and the crew are dead, the person sat in the exit row does what exactly? Waits?
I have never seen it written that any passenger has to occupy an exit row seat
What's the point of seats being there then?

[BahrainLad]

The profusion of £199 / £249 fares across the Atlantic has been enabled by the ever increasing numbers of seats in the back of aeroplanes.

Remove seats, fares go up.

So airlines are currently offering passengers a choice. If you want more space, pay for it. If you're prepared to be uncomfortable for what is a tiny, tiny time proportion of your overall holiday, don't pay for it and take the cheap fare.

Personally, I'd rather this choice rather than the airlines removing seats and raising fares and forcing me to pay extra.

[AerocatS2A]

What's the point of seats being there then?

Hey it's pretty simple really. You have seats next to an emergency exit. Ideally you want people sitting there who can help in an emergency. First priority would be travelling airline staff who are specifically trained for such emergencies, second priority would be to those who are fit and able-bodied, lowest on the list would be other less able-bodied people.

So, don't be supprised to see airline staff occupying exit seats. Also, if you want an exit seat then you'd better make sure you check in before anyone else who also wants an exit seat.

As for tall people, there is one other option that hasn't been mentioned yet. Get an isle seat and hang your legs out into the isle. Sure it'll be a pain moving them every time someone wants to move through the isle, but it'll be better than the other seats.

[Bealzebub]

eal401,

You don't appear to be following the thread. The quotes you selected are replies to other questions not initial statements. As a result you are simply argueing for the sake of argueing. However dealing with the two questions:

The question you posed "If the crew are dead the passenger sat at an exit does what exactly ?" Assuming they have survived they get out, assuming they can move etc. etc. Does this answer surprise you ?

The second question you posed, "why are seats situated at an exit". Ideally they are not, in that most exits have to be clear. In the case of certain types of exits, they have a naturally lower flow rate ( by virtue of their design) and seats may well be placed adjacent to them since the design flow rate is not impeded ( from a regulatory standpoint ) by that fact. In the case of main exits they will be clear but of course there will be seats at some point fore and aft of them that will qualify as exit seats for the purpose of the discussion. It does not follow that these seats have to be occupied although they are likely to be. Seats have to be somewhere, it is how the business operates.

[Momo]

I think the BA Internet checkin limitation on emergency exit rows applies only to short-haul. I was able to select on on a 777 flight to Chicago.

Momo

[B Fraser]

The last time I flew with AA business class was ORD - LHR and it was sh*te. I would rather have flown Virgin economy :bored: I'm sure that the N means Never :yuk:

[FormerFlyer]

Well I can give an update on AA's J class in a couple of weeks.

Am out on Weds to MIA and back on the 14th MCO-MIA-LHR. Am desperately hoping it's better than VS economy as that's an experience I really don't want to repeat!

cheers ;)

FF

[DerekWarrior1]

Thanks for the response folks, - some interesting and informative points raised.

Regards, Del

[Mr C Hinecap]

A couple of things...

6'7" tall, 240lbs - not my fault. Bealz - I hope I have the chance to not pass you something from the shelf you can't reach!
It is sometimes not the just comfort thing - I have flown a couple of times where I could not physically sit down in a regular seat - pitch was such that my butt was off the seat as my legs couldn't go forward far enough! As there is no easy answer, then I guess we have to just smile sweetly and be as nice as possible to those wonderful, charming, soopah cabin crew! :ok:

[Feeton Terrafirma]

At 6'6" and about 125 kg I have had problems with leg room on a few occassions. I always ask for an exit row and often get it, but on one occassion I missed out and the room allowed wasn't enuf to allow me to get my butt on the seat before my knees hit the seat in front. The simple solution was to stand. Eventually the nice FA came to ask me to sit as they wished to depart. I pointed out the problem, being particular to point out that I could not actually SIT, and within moments I was seated in Business. :)

As someone said, the airline is selling a product, transport to another location, and since I have paid, they now have a contractual obligation to provide the service. Don't get confused with the thought that you are buying a seat, you are buying transport and they fact that the aircraft is poorly laid out is not your problem. Make it be the airlines problem.

And I would not be backward about pulling out the discrimination card either.

[BEagle]

And as for travelling - even in Business Class - in those worthless pieces of **** referred to as CRJs.....

Bloody things are an utter con. Poor legroom, poor headroom, poor legroom and (LH) woeful service. All at Business Class prices, of course. Nowadays I check the route and a/c - and if it looks as though it'll be on a CRJ, I'll travel from elsewhere and the customer will pick up the cost difference!

[Final 3 Greens]

BEagle

I do agree, the CRJ is not a pleasant experience.

[Dogs_ears_up]

Feeton Terrafirma - an interesting post: For arguments sake, let's take some of your points to their logical conclusions?

If I understand you correctly, it is the responsibility of every airline to ensure that an appropriate seat is provided for somebody of your size. Since you have the freedom to travel when and where you want, all world airlines must make this facility available to you at all times, and without prior notice.

It therefore must be also the responsibility of all world airlines to provide an appropriate seat for other customers who are larger than you are, or else this would involve similar discrimination for others. Therefore, for arguments sake, seats must always be available, on all flights, without prior notice to enable the comfort and safety of a hypothetical customer of, say, 6ft 11" and 200kgs?

Since, at these sizes/weights, it is possible that an Exit Row seat is inappropriate, seat pitch on at least a part of the cabin must be increased to enable appropriate seating to be provided. The cost for this must presumably be absorbed by your fellow passengers, or by the airline, or both? As an alternative, you have the right to a Business/First class seat without being required to pay the price paid for by others. To ensure that you achieve this desirable end, you avoid mentioning the problem until the last moment when the crew are provided with the choice of delaying the flight to offload you, or to upgrade you: This means that you have made it not only the airlines problem, but also the problem of your fellow passengers, and your crew. You do not mention the suggested course of action should the flight, or even just the upgrade cabins be full: Presumably, the airline would be expected to offload somebody else less important, to enable your seating requirement.

It is unclear which "discrimination card" you wish to be played. Presumably not the reverse discrimination applied to those other passengers, shorter than you, who are required to pay normal prices for their upgraded seating?

I imagine that you may read this and detect a distinct lack of sympathy. I have every sympathy with your predicament, and as a Crew Member, would seek to help you in any way possible, provided your behaviour is reasonable and considerate towards all involved: This would exclude manipulative or confrontational behaviour.

Out of curiosity, what would be best practise when travelling on a mid-haul coach, crowded train or metro or smaller sized taxi (all of which have, on average, higher seat/mile costs than aircraft): Likewise, many cinema seats, some restaurants or even hotel toilet/shower cubicles - the list can go on. The point is that any number of businesses will base their costs upon an average figure, whether physical, mental or social. Do all businesses receive treatment from you that is in all ways equal, or do airlines get just a little bit more stick - or at least those that have a spare seat in C Class?

:E

[slim_slag]

At 6'6" and about 125 kg I have had problems with leg room on a few occassions. I always ask for an exit row and often get it

How big is the exit hole in the fuselage over the wing? Shouldn't people who might block the exit be put somewhere else (in the class they paid for of course)

[redfred]

the checkin agent will probably look at you, size you up and just say 'sorry the exit seats have gone' if your too fat, too old, not as tall as you think you are, you look at him/her the wrong way, your not so good looking or pretty or they are having a bad day....

[radeng]

So Dogs_ears_up,

What would you do when you have a passenger so tall that he can't sit in the seat? Do you throw him off the 'plane? If so, how do you handle the resulting legal claim because it's more than likely there's nothing in the conditions of carriage about people being more than a certain size not being carried - and if there was, it would quite likely get heavily hit in a discrimination law suit?

It seems to be one of those cases where npobody is likely to win except a lawyer.

[DocJacko]

Hi,
AA allows all frequent-flying customers (Gold, Platinum, Executive Platinum status) to exclusively preselect an exit row seat when they book their ticket online. As a normal (non-frequent-flyer-status) passenger, you don't get that privilege. Ever since I have achieved AA's frequent flyer status, I have been travelling in exit row seats without a single exception.

[JamesT73J]

I think people do not understand exactly what it's like to be tall when it comes to passenger aircraft seating - it is seriously, seriously difficult with certain airlines. Believe me, you know what you're getting into, and you'll put up with most things.

I love flying, but I have limits to what I will tolerate. At 6'3", I understand that I will not enjoy the comfort a shorter person might experience. When travelling to Malaga recently, I encountered for the first time Britannia's high density seating. That's a 28-inch pitch. My knees were pushed firmly into the armrest hinges of the seat in front, and my buttocks were planted well into the fold of the seat. I could not move - where the seating structure flexed, I felt it through my knees. When the child in front shifted his weight, I felt it through my knees. It was a two hour flight, and I was never so pleased to get off an aircraft.

A recent flight on a BMI Fokker 100 provided the most legroom I've ever experienced in my life. Pure bliss. I understand the airlines need to survive, but please be reasonable.

[10secondsurvey]

Its really easy to go in circles regarding legroom, but the solutions really are not that simple. It's often the case that you can't pay a bit more for extra legroom.

Let me give you an example, with flights to the Canary Islands. Most of the flights are charter operated, as you may expect. Now of course many of them let you pre-book extra legroom seating, but not all. This is the problem, there is a chance, that no matter how early I check in, I might not get an extra legroom seat, and have the problems already highlighted by others.

As I understand it, Britannia offer extra legroom, but they have recently 'moved the goalposts'. The extra legroom seats are now no longer called extra legroom seats, they are now called 'extra' seats - the difference is in the small print. According to the airline, extra seats provide more legroom by being at an exit row or just more SPACE by being behind a bulkhead, and having no seat in front. This is a significant difference, as someone tall may book an extra seat, only to find that they don't actually get EXTRA legroom.

And before anybody says 'well you get what you pay for' You don't really have the choice to pay more, unless you charter a private jet. I would happily pay more to have extra legroom, but the choice is often just not available at any price


On the upside another charter airline - first choice airlines(Air 2000) have announced that on long haul flights next year, the standard seat pitch will be 33" and premium pitch will be 36". That standard pitch is pretty awesome for a charter. They will get my business.


As regards scheduled airlines, the seat pitch really does vary a great deal which makes many of the cost arguments look just a touch silly (if cost were the main factor, every airline would have the legal minimum seat pitch,but they don't - some economy is 29", yet some is 34"). So clearly cost is NOT the only determining factor.


It is very easy to say tall people should go business class, but that is really quite a silly argument. The difficulty with most of the scheduled premium economy products right now, is that they do not offer what tall people need. Sure, they give extra legroom, and that alone would not be too expensive, but most airlines seem to view this cabin as a kind of half Business class, so you get better meals, and so on, which all make it expensive.

I really wish airlines would just offer some seats with more legroom and nothing else, and that would make life easier for tall people, but at not too great a cost.

As a tall person, I chuckle when I hear airlines say at the start of the safety breifing that 'your safety is our main concern', as this just is not the case, when I and others sit with knees pressed into the seat in front, and could not get into a crash position.


People are getting taller, and yet the minimum seat pitch in the uk has not changed one jot for decades- which is pretty bizarre.

Several good airlines I have found are BMI (on the airbuses), flybe (in the Q400's- which are really spacious inside for a small aircraft), American (but it seems that will change).

Finally, to those in the airline business who don't take legroom seriously, there have been many times in the past when I have had the money to fly to the USA, and have decided not to bother, as I could not get any kind of guarantee of what the seat pitch will be. Try making a booking and you'll soon find that almost without exception, scheduled airline reservation agents and travel agents will not know what the seat pitch is. In addition, in some travel agents, when you ask about extra legroom seats on a charter flight they invariably say "oh can you do that??" or even worse "you can't do that, but the seats are usually ok, you know". Yes, ok for a smurf.

[slim_slag]

Economy class also sucks for people who are of average height. The people I really feel sorry for are those with conditions like bad arthritis, they must have a miserable time on long haul, never seem to hear them complain though. Plenty of options for those who are taller than average.

[Dogs_ears_up]

The primary point remains, surely...

A majority of customers are not over 6'1", nor are they over 100kgs. Like it or not, in an environment where space and weight are finite and a source of revenue, hard commercial decisions have to be made - to do otherwise would be business suicide. Presumably, this is in part why AA are withdrawing their seat pitch USP - because it did not generate as much revenue as the alternative(s).

Customers who are too large to fit in one passenger seat are required to purchase an additional seat ( see Southwest's excellent explanation here (http://www.southwest.com/about_swa/press/additional_seat.html)). The logic for this policy seems inescapable, although I'm sure somebody will disagree :p . The same logic must apply to height, just as to mass/volume.

At 5'11½" I am fractionally above average height - at 28" seat pitch, I'm not comfortable, but the discomfort is at an acceptable level, proportionate to the fair paid. There are customers who are larger, but still physically fit in the seats: These customers must make their own value judgements, and opt to spend more or less discretionary income on comfort, as they see fit. There are a numerically minute number of customers who cannot pysically fit in our seats: These customers usually contact the airline in advance and ask for assistance, which is happily provided whenever possible, also, whenever possible, FOC. There is also a sub-group of these customers who make no effort to pre-arrange assistance, but just arrive and then create unpleasantness for everybody around when their unreasonable demands are not met with the promptness and obsequity that they require.

[slim_slag]

Yep, Southwest get it right again, you don't get to encroach on somebody elses seat space, pay extra for your own space.

So in the same vein, my seat is designed to recline and so the space behind me that it reclines into has been allocated to me for the duration of the flight. If you are sitting behind me and have long thigh bones you should purchase the seat next to you and extend your legs into the legroom there. Having an empty seat next to you is a very effective way of improving comfort in economy class and not as expensive as a business class seat. You have many options.

[Final 3 Greens]

Dear Slim Slag

If you are sitting in front of me, then you will encounter this device....

http://www.kneedefender.com/index.html

I have a right to be able to use my laptop just as much as you have a right to recline.

Have a good flight.

Now why don't you grow up and take a reasonable view, instead of spouting polemic?

[slim_slag]

Great word F3G, I had to look that one up :ok:

Nobody has rights in economy class, it's war I tell you. Put your laptop on your knees and lets hope airport security put those nasty bits of plastic to the forbidden list.

And I think you will find a lot of people will actually agree with me :)

[10secondsurvey]

Still people here are in the mistaken belief that lost of 'options' exist for tall passengers, and it just is not true.

For instance, buying an adjacent seat in some airlines is a completely pointless exercise, as the seats are fitted with non movable arm rests, so a leg cannot be stretched over to the adjacent seat even if this is empty. Even if there are movable armrests, they must be down for takeoff/landing - so again an impossibility. I have actually been on an aircraft where I had my leg out to the side, and my knee was in front of the seat back in front - a crazy situation.

In the case of aisle seats, I would suggest YOU try sticking your legs out into the aisle on a flight. Firstly, you will get passengers passing by banging you and also tripping on your feet. The tripping happens much more often than is easy to believe- never understood why. You will also get cabin crew wheeling trolleys into your knee (I have experienced this many many times with no apology or excuse me). Finally, similarly to above. an aisle seat is next to useless in this respect if it has fixed rigid arm rests, as is seen on Easy jet aircraft, and a lot of charters.


For the average punter, business class is just way too expensive (and extravagant) and premiumn economy on some airlines is also too expensive, as it includes lots of unnecessary extras.

Like I said before, I do not mind having to pay more for extra legroom, but why can't I have it without all the fancy extras etc.. which unnecessarily add to the cost.

And for the record, for those people who suggest booking an adjacent seat - just try doing it for your next holiday with lizzie drip serving you in the travel agents. It is a process akin to pulling teeth.

The real truth is that some of these 'options' for tall people are invariably not available or are impossible due to the type of seating.

It is easy to be glib about this, if you are not tall, but the reality is actually a bit of a nightmare.

Incidentally, legroom needs for a given passenger are not only related to the persons height, as some regular height people can have very long femurs (thigh bones). You do not have to be extremely tall in height to suffer in this respect. This is in fact the case with myself. My femurs are very long for someone of 6'2". This is also true especially for women, as for a given height, they tend to have longer femurs than men.

On a final point I have no problem paying extra for more legroom, but this really is rarely available on its own and often is too expensive due to all the flashy unnecessary extras that come with it. Just try doing it, and you'll soon find how difficult it is.

[PAXboy]

For the average punter, business class is just way too expensive (and extravagant) and premiumn economy on some airlines is also too expensive, as it includes lots of unnecessary extras. I think that any 'extras' being offerred are to try an djustify the extra price. I am a big fan of PE/WY+ cabins but I know that all I am buying is space. If the airline tries to tell me that I am getting extras then I know that their cost to the carrier is minimal. :rolleyes:

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"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

[ManAtTheBack]

At 6' 1'' a am taller than the average but not excessively tall. I find some cattle class seating uncomfortable.

I often fly Thai because even though they are not the cheapest, and do not offer personal IFE they do offer 34" seats and flights have been full. I have not had occasion to visit the US recently but would have chosen AA if I did for the same reason. However this option is not always available. Moreover the airlines themselves often do not make this information readily avalable.

I appreciate that a sizeable (in number) part of the population are happy with 'normal' pitch seats and a part of the population would be happy with smaller seats.

I agree with others who say that they are willing to pay a little more to accomodate their larger than average height selfs, but who, buying their own ticket, cannot justify Business or Premium economy.

On a large aircraft such as A330, B747 or B777, could there not be Economy S, Economy M and Economy L, with, if 31" were standard, then a few rows of 28" and a similar number of 34" rows of seats. Fares could be either 10% cheaper or more expensive based upon real fares.

[urdy gurdy]

looking at it from another point of view, a midgets legs are so short they have to put there legs out straight on the seat,thus resulting in their feet pushing up against the seat in front

[Cyrano]

ManAtTheBack:

See Maersk Air (http://www.maersk-air.com/en/Travel+Services/Main+page/New+Ticket+Categories.htm) (Denmark). Although they don't do long-haul (and I don't know how well their low-cost incarnation is doing), they do offer the different legroom options you suggest.

C.

[ManAtTheBack]

Cyrano

Thanks for pointing that out. I have no plans to visit Denmark in the near future but would consider them if I did. I wish Maersk luck but fear that short haul is not the idealplace to try such an experiment.

Generally, a large number of airlines offer extensive IFE, which is both expensive to install and maintain, and imposes a weight penalty on the aircraft. However, only a few seem interested in giving a little extra room, even at a reasonable supplement.

On the question of economics, and AA's withdrawal of More room in coach an extra 10% legroom would not cost the airline anything on flights with less that 90% load factor, which would be a large number of them. At peak times some revenue would be lost but this could be the deep discount fares (admittedly higher than off-peak times) so I would not think that 10% extra space would reduce revenue by 10%.

Finally, airlines might like to recognise that people who are treated well when they spend their own money often choose the same airline when others are paying. On a recent domestic trip I was offered, without prompting, an emergency exit seat at check-in. I will bear this in mind next time it comes to choosing to spending my employers (business class) money between competing airlines.

[PAXboy]

MATB: I agree with you but you do sound as if you are trying to think this through in a logical and consistent manner. Have you met any folks from airline management recently???:confused:

The IFE has become a major field of competition. It is easy to market, as it has snazzy images and so forth. Also, have you any idea how good it is as keeping children quiet??!! That makes it a big sell to parents. The fact that the same weight could space out seats or carry mist air/water fire and smoke damping equipment is not relevant. Go to the bottom of the class :rolleyes:

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"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.