View Full Version : Air India Capt fires F/O outstation

19th Nov 2004, 14:50
reliable sources say an AI Capt fired his F/O while on ground on a turnround in OMDB on wednesday 17th Nov. This was after what must have been near fisticuffs in the cockpit. Flight delayed for some time as another F/O on layover was pulled in.
Did somebody mention CRM???:\

Flying Mech
19th Nov 2004, 18:05
Just wondering which section of the CRM manual recommends settling disagreements using your fists? Maybe they fell out over how much Fuel they were going to upload before departure? Still as we all know these things will happen. I was on the Jumpseat one day on Finals working for a certain operator based in Rotterdam when the F/O was doing the landing in an A300,cut a long story short, he f***ed it up but got the A/C on the ground ok, during Taxi in to stand the Capt turned round and punched the F/O hard in the shoulder,said nothing and continued with the after landing checklist. Not another word spoken for the rest of the journey to the hotel!

19th Nov 2004, 19:10
Flying Mech....

That's from the "Street CRM" manual!

Worse still in the FAA "Ghetto CRM" manual.....the F/O gets shot!!



19th Nov 2004, 20:42
??????????????????????:confused: :confused: :confused: :yuk:

19th Nov 2004, 20:57
Regardless of the veracity of the conjecture of the original post - of which I profer no opinion, as a ground based worker I have occassion to 'fall out' with colleagues.

The ramifications of which , must pale into insignificance in comparison to a similar occurance between flight deck crew.

The more I think about it the more it must say for the professionalism of the aviation industry that they are able to overcome these 'spats' and get us SLF from A to B.

Is there some post flight release mechanism that kicks in and allows them to beat seven shades of ****e out of each other or do they just sod off to the bar for a bevy?

19th Nov 2004, 21:42
Flying Mech

That wasn't 411A was it?

20th Nov 2004, 01:18

Don't fly Airboos equipment....fortunately.:E

Colonel Klink
20th Nov 2004, 18:48
This doesn't say a lot for the Captain's CRM. Since when do Captains have the right to hire and fire? What if the Captain is wrong, but he fires the FO? Not to mention the inevitable delay it must have caused, because he could not find a way to relate to his FO without it causing fisticuffs in the flightdeck.
Most reputable airlines would have this crew in for a "chat" with the Chief Pilot, then a quick run through a CRM course!! You only have to fly with the bloke, not like him!

20th Nov 2004, 19:46
So much for the possibility that the Capt was right??? :* Who said the Copilot didn't do it with the chandelier in the Library...?

I am all for CRM but (just for laughs) imagine that the copilot did not live up to it? That would really rock this forum, seems that most feel that the Capt. is guilty... no matter who did it.

Pointer :E

Fire away.......

20th Nov 2004, 22:27
Never been in such a situation in 28 years of commercial flying.

However if a really difficult situation developed then I would have suspended the F/O, and also suspended myself.

In the U.K. the Captain does not have the power to 'fire' anybody thankfully. Perhaps it is different in other countries and cultures


20th Nov 2004, 22:42
Finally, a Captain not afraid to exercise his command. :ok:

Nigerian Expat Outlaw
20th Nov 2004, 23:20

Yes, agreed, but what if he was wrong ? What redress does the F/O have ? Let's be fair..................:ok:

20th Nov 2004, 23:38
I have got very similar situation once. The reqred&ttl fuel was 4000 kg.
Cpt has ordered 3800 kg, my question was "WHY"
The answer was "BECAUSE" etc,etc. Final conclusion was that if I am affraid to fly, I am not supposed to be a pilot.
Is he a CRM-educated cpt? I dont think so, and you?

20th Nov 2004, 23:40
Yes indeed, sorry outlaw,

The Captain is the boss, contrary to what co-pilots (or indeed BA cabin crew) think...so, sounds like a good idea to me.

Fired for cause.

Of course, if it doesn't hold up to scrutiny during the inevitable investigation...fur will fly in the fleet manager's office...to be sure.

Anyone want a fur coat? :E

21st Nov 2004, 11:43
At last some sense prevails in the world. The Captain is the BOSS, not the F/O, not the CSD, not the No1....

Maybe, just maybe the Captain was right and this was just the final straw!

In this day of PC and CRM and "Thought Police" and Social Engineering etc etc the Captains are fighting back!!

Be on your guard Co-pilots! do as your Captain commands or your days may be numbered!!

Ha Ha have a nice day! :D

21st Nov 2004, 12:21
Check this little video out.

CRM (http://www.airviolence.com/request.php?47)

cargo boy
21st Nov 2004, 12:38
411A when he was just a first officer is played by John Wayne. :}

(He was a first officer once, wasn't he?) :bored:

21st Nov 2004, 15:00
Fire his ass! :p

21st Nov 2004, 19:33
Fire the sound man too! Note the engines powering up as he throtles back :rolleyes:

21st Nov 2004, 19:45
Not on heavy jets, oddly enough, cargo boy...direct entry command.
Just the way it is...was.:E

22nd Nov 2004, 03:25

Any idea where to get a full copy of the movie (DVD, downnload or otherwise) ?

My 'oul fella's been looking for a copy for years but the release rights apparently are in dispute with the Wayne estate etc. etc.


22nd Nov 2004, 04:55
Word out Hollywood way is that it will be released in March (along with another Wayne aviation movie) on DVD and tape.
The aeroplane used in the High and the Mighty was a DC-4 which, oddly enough, after having an engine fall off at 140W, went on to SFO and landed with all four turning...clever those mechanics mid-Pacific.:= :uhoh:

22nd Nov 2004, 05:56
I agree with MercenaryAli and 411A. The Captain is the "boss" as stipulated by Company Regulations and Air Law.

Unfortunately, a small international airline based in Bahrain allows its local Pursers (I think they call them Flight Seniors) to act as if they are in charge of the aircraft. Fortunately, they have come up against some "old-school" Captains who have educated them (see posts by TCASTED).

It is very sad that there are some insecure, some might say weak, expatriate Captains on this site who would rather have their Pilot in Command authority undermined that risk upsetting a local crew member.

CRM is vital, but the Captain has the final word. That is the accepted convention (except in Bahrain and a few other places).


22nd Nov 2004, 06:32
Just to let all you guys know that ive been through the air india crm course but doesnt really do a whole lot of good to the pilots online as there are these certain ex Air Force pilots who really think that they are gods gift to aviation and who wouldnt even know the meaning of CRM. All the first officer really does is gear up and flaps up so can you really blame them for the lack of hands on experience when something does happen??

22nd Nov 2004, 08:05
I think that to the real CAPTAINS should be given Handcuffs

22nd Nov 2004, 08:38

Are you sure about that? I thought it was a B707... or is that in another of his movies?

22nd Nov 2004, 15:10
. . . . . All the first officer really does is gear up and flaps up. . . .

Why! Should there be more? . . . .:)

Willie Everlearn
22nd Nov 2004, 16:26

I may regret jumping into this post, but...without knowing the particulars....

IMHO, the Captain doesn't (and shouldn't) have that level of authority.
(maybe in India where stranger things have happened)

The Employer does the firing. Not the Captain.
OPS Manuals usually define duties and responsibilities. I may be wrong but I haven't read in recent times, an ops manual that includes the firing of anybody's ass.
Any Captain, not enamoured with his F/O for whatever reason, certainly has the right (as any pilot on any aircraft requiring two or more pilots in its CofA) to refuse to fly with that pilot.
But, to fire his ass??? I don't think so.

As an F/O, I wouldn't have hesitated to abandon a Captain at an out station for his/her misconduct, unsafe operation, or blatent ignorance or disrespect. That's an easy decision.

As a Captain, I have enough to manage on a flight without doing HRs job or the CPs job. Thank you.

To show up on a flight deck without certain people management skills is obscene and unacceptable. No matter what your position or level of authority. CRM should enhance this trait not create it.

I would have no trouble justifying those actions to a CP, Fleet Mgr or whatever level of authority. If, in the end, they decided to fire me for it....then I guess I really shouldn't be working for that employer in the first place.


22nd Nov 2004, 23:22
I can see that many of you guys are those so-called nonreformable cpts (old school):ok:

23rd Nov 2004, 01:21
Definitely one of the "Old School".
A lot of Capts reacting... "Capt has the final word".
So next time there's an accident/ incident... it should read
"Capts Error". Where's CRM ?

23rd Nov 2004, 04:53
Yeah, cabin crew...and off rocker.
The CC forum sure has a duzzy about BA CC guys/gals trying to 'poison' the front office folks, and some FD crew there are drawn into the 'discussion'.
No wonder the thread is now closed.
I have never ceased to be amazed at the difficulties some Captains have with their cabin crew...and indeed, First Officers.

Especially with CC, just get along with the 'Cabin Captain' (not all that difficult) and the rest of 'em follow along like sheep.
But noooo, some Commanders like to stick their big nose in the cabin business...and then are surprised when it is put out of joint.
In nearly forty years of professional flying, I only had a 'problem' with one First Officer...and he was read the riot act by the fleet manager, and demoted to a lower fleet...where he stayed for at least three years.
The fleet manager mentioned that this turkey just simply could not get along, and he certainly paid the price.
Argue with the boss (be it the Commander, or indeed the Fleet Manager), and expect to have trouble in river city.

23rd Nov 2004, 08:02
. . . . As an F/O, I wouldn't have hesitated to abandon a Captain at an out station for his/her misconduct, unsafe operation, or blatent ignorance or disrespect.


What sheer arrogance! Since when did the F/O decide whether or not a Captain was guilty of misconduct, unsafe operation or disrespect? The Captain is the xxxxxxx Boss!

What are F/O's coming to these days?

Bring back the birch I say!!

Ha Ha Ha...:)

23rd Nov 2004, 15:36
did you only mean that he shouted [fired] at the guy and had him replaced. you see the confusion you have created, firing means sacking in most [read all over]parts of the world.

23rd Nov 2004, 17:45
do you think, that f/o dute is gear up, flaps up, shut up? Thats all?
Thanks Good in my airlines the policy is that if i am a pilot in flying i am heaving decision about TOD, and the otrher things concernig a safe approach and land
In my airlines I do make take off, climbing,and descending and landing, regardless what a cpt is thinking about this.
It is why f/o with 5years experiment is ready to take controll over that all unreformable cpts
be nice to f/os who are better than you

23rd Nov 2004, 18:00

23rd Nov 2004, 18:09
Now thats what I call Captains authority!

23rd Nov 2004, 19:52
Think about what you are saying guys!

Let's face the facts:
1. The Captain is always in Command

2. Several incidents/accidents and (I think everybody can confirm) also personal experience show, that the CPT is not always right:{

3. Following the argumentation of some guys here I get the impression that a FO should follow a CPT's oder even if he knows that this is wrong.
(In the worst case this is a key-step to an incident/accident)

A good Crew-Coordination makes it possible to the FO to discuss critical matters without getting penalized by the CPT.

That is how it SHOULD be.
Obvously this seems to be not the case and in this case the CPT overran the "Right to Command" by penalizing in an improper way.

Guys, you are responsible for hundreds of Pax, the cockpit is a workplace for highly disciplinated and qualified professional pilots and not for the baby-brothers of Mike Tyson!

Pls keep that in Mind before you kick your FO from behind!

24th Nov 2004, 06:48
. . . . do you think, that f/o dute is gear up, flaps up, shut up? Thats all?
Thanks Good in my airlines the policy is that if i am a pilot in flying i am heaving decision about TOD, and the otrher things concernig a safe approach and land
In my airlines I do make take off, climbing,and descending and landing, regardless what a cpt is thinking about this.
It is why f/o with 5years experiment is ready to take controll over that all unreformable cpts
be nice to f/os who are better than you


Yes! But remember you are ALWAYS P1 U/S and you don't do anything REGARDLESS of what the Captain is thinking! - I HOPE !!

Please let me know which airline you work for and I shall ensure I never fly with you !!

24th Nov 2004, 08:41
Least we forget the incident at Tenerife.

24th Nov 2004, 09:08
Mercinary Ali

I can see some of the posters on this tread have a good sense of humor and try and wind some people up, but you seem pretty serious in what you write.

What planet are you from?!?!
The sky must be pretty pink in your world!!!

Ofcourse the Captain has the final authority, but this doesn't mean that if the Captain wants to jump into a pile of **** you have to follow him.

QUOTE]Please let me know which airline you work for and I shall ensure I never fly with you !![/QUOTE]
I'm glad you see it that way!

Willie Everlearn
24th Nov 2004, 10:26

I wonder if you might consider taking up your particular point of view with a chap called Al Haynes formerly of United Airlines. I'm sure he'd be more interested in your point of view than I.

...by the way. Are you corporate or airline?

...are you really an airline transport pilot?


24th Nov 2004, 11:12
The way I see it is MercenaryAli you're a bit of a pr%$k.

Captains have overall command, they are not always right and as it goes everyone makes mistakes.
However, they are paid more for their experience and decision making and as I see it, a good Captain with good CRM should make his/her decisions taking onboard all information available to them. If issues persist then sort it out on the ground preferably by talking than with a bit of fist action. (altho admittedly the latter would be more fun to watch:p )
And as for bad landings.... well haven't we all been there at one time?:ugh:


24th Nov 2004, 11:31
Like Willie Everlearn I'm not sure I should be getting into this, but to try and head off the name-calling I want to point out that there are two sides to this.

Neither Captains nor copilots are always right. CRM was invented as a way of enabling the co to have his voice heard, because in too many cases it was "Gear up. Flap up. Shut up." CRM was not intended to remove the Captain's responsibility, or authority, or FINAL SAY.

There is now (in my opinion) mounting evidence that copilots are taking it too far and assuming that they are making the decisions. It must be the way CRM is being taught, but I've heard appalling tales of copilots refusing to do what they are told (because they disagree with it) and behaving like old-school captains by refusing to give their reasons to the (actual) Captain.

It's time to reconsider how CRM is being taught, because otherwise it will lose all credibility and we'll be back in the bad old days.

24th Nov 2004, 11:53
Was the f/o's employment contract with the company or the captain? Most likely the former.

As a result (at least under most common-law systems), the captain would not have the capacity to avoid the contract (ie. sack the f/o) as he is not privy to the contract.

Unless, of course, the company has specifically given that captain (or its captains as a class) the authority to avoid such contracts on its behalf.

Whether the 'captain is always in command' is irrelevant. This action is regarding the f/o's employment contract, not whether a particular captain feels he can or cannot fly with the f/o. His command extends to not allowing the f/o onto the aircraft, certainly - but not as far as dipping his toe into contracts to which he is not privy.

Given the 'captain is always in command' line, then why not just invite family & friends on board for free for the next trip to Mauritius? Or alternatively: sod it, it's cold in Vancouver (where we are supposed to be flying tonight), so I think I'll take the bird to Cape Town instead tonight. Warmer and the steak's cheaper.

No, like it or not, there are limits to a captain's authority.

24th Nov 2004, 16:35
Going to have to stop firing one another if this is going to happen:

UPDATE 1-Air-India board OKs tender for 50 aircraft
Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:30 AM ET
(Adds details)
BOMBAY, Nov 24 (Reuters) - The board of Indian state-run airline Air-India [AI.UL] gave approval on Wednesday to proceed with a tender for up to 50 aircraft to more than double its fleet.

The carrier is looking at aircraft from Boeing Co. (BA.N: Quote, Profile, Research) and Airbus (EAD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) . It expects to buy two-thirds of the planes and take options to purchase the rest.

Air-India is looking to have the planes in its fleet by 2013, expanding its fleet to 74 from 34 as some of the new planes replace older models.

Planes to be replaced include Boeing 747-300 and 747-400 aircraft and Airbus A310-300s.

Air-India said the board had approved a plan to float tenders inviting offers for the purchase of three types of aircraft and that the outcome could be a deal with Airbus, Boeing or a mix of the two.

It will look to buy medium-capacity planes for ultra long-range flights; medium-capacity, long-range planes seating 350 passengers; and 250-seat planes for medium-range routes, the airline said in a statement.

The board had approved a purchase plan in November last year but was asked to reconsider it by the new government, which took office in May.

A review took into account changes in price and technologies in the aviation industry.

A decision will now rest on technical and price bids from aircraft and engine manufacturers and will then require government approval.

Air India's plan last November to purchase 10 A340-300 planes has been abandoned, a spokesman said.

The 18 Boeing 737-800 aircraft that it had earlier selected for its small capacity short-range operations will now be purchased for its subsidiary company Air-India Charters Ltd and will be used to replace leased aircraft for its discount airline, Air India Express, which starts operations in April next year.


24th Nov 2004, 17:23
Guys just relax and take things eazy ! Is it so difficult to understand that what ever the problem in fly deck , we have to behave ourselves and be real Pros !!!

Miles Magister
24th Nov 2004, 18:21

So you have done the course at GAT as well then!

25th Nov 2004, 10:43
Did this event really take place as alleged?
Has there been any subsequent information or follow-up?
There would seem to be an awful lot of speculation if it is an unverified event.

Thanks Willie Everlearn, it took 4 pages to get to what I want to know.
Does AI have a unique policy that line Capts can fire (terminate employment) of other employees? Has this been done before?

Would someone with some FACTS please speak up.

25th Nov 2004, 12:08
Air India is a state owned airline and once you get in, it's a job for life.........No captain or even a federal minister can terminate your employment no matter how hard they try....why else do you think no private invester wants to buy it even though the government is desperate to get rid of it.....too many employees...it has the highest employee per aircraft ratio in the world......

No body is allowed to fire anyone.....that is the way the labour laws are....full stop.

Like it has been pointed out I think it is confusion with the language.....the captain probably got very upset with the FO and they had to get a replacement....

The FO in question is probably operating his next sector as we speak.

25th Nov 2004, 12:43
"FIRE" when translated from Hindi could mean "Ball Ragged"

Nobody can SACK even a sweeper in Air India forget a pilot!

CarltonBrowne the FO
25th Nov 2004, 22:18
And if the FO feels strongly enough to raise an objection, instead of "just bloody doing it," perhaps it is something detrimental to flight safety?
Besides, why does the Captain's action have to unquestionably detrimental to safety before it can be questioned? I would prefer to ask the question while there is still some doubt about it! If I have to overrule an "unquestionably" unsafe action (which I was instructed at my initial interview was part of my job) then I will never fly with that captain again (unless it can be proven afterwards that the unsafe action was due to some isolated cause).
Of course, if I am wrong, I expect it to cost me my job. It is not a course of action I am going to take lightly.

25th Nov 2004, 23:23
Carlton Browne (no offense intended, of course), if you constantly question the Captain, that is precisely just why you are still a First Officer, and have not been promoted.

Of course, with your demonstrated attitude, perhaps the RHS is your best venue and, the company has realised this as well.

Make your bed...and sleep in it;) ;) ;)

25th Nov 2004, 23:40
Carlton Brown, if you constantly question the Captain, that is precisely just why you are still a First Officer, and have not been promoted.
411a PLEASE give the other a chance to be a Cpt.
Are yoy really a Cpt?
How old are you? 80? 90? perhaps:{

Human Factor
26th Nov 2004, 00:01
if you constantly question the Captain, that is precisely just why you are still a First Officer

Not to be taken at face value.

Sure, if you constantly question a Captain, as in annoy the **** out of the guy, then you're asking for trouble. If you know when and how to speak up when the skipper is going off on a tangent, that is an absolute essential. Equally, if the skipper is worth his salt, he'll put his hands up and say, "Ok, I screwed up there."

26th Nov 2004, 01:11
I remember some years ago a Captain turning up in uniform at his hotel checkout drunk. The F/O refused to fly with him. The Captain then hit him.

Last I heard the Capt was calibrating ILS's for the CAA.

Apparently !!

26th Nov 2004, 02:41
I think the altercation was not truly a professional one. It stems from "political issues". The SARS problem which affected AI and caused them to lose their union's credibility and the fact that certain FOs who are close to their command are being targetted by certain Captains? Of course this is pure spec as I am not a part of the Maharaja. Maybe somebody in the know can clarify as this thread has emerged into a "gossip" thread.

26th Nov 2004, 07:03
judgement passed on the situation in haste has many a tale to tell.
Actually the first officer has had many problems with other commanders with his "I dont care what youve said " attitude when advice was give to him to correct his mistakes. This commander on this flight has apparantly tried to do the same and from what i hear the F/O got out of the cocpit himself. And now that he had done this, the captain then asked for a relief F/O.... now this is just off the top.

Bottom line... CRM has failed indeed.... right from his training days. The said F/O lacks the experience of flying Jets and commercially too. He has been with the airline for a little over 8 months.

this issue is being looked into by a panel..and I am sure a correction to the issue will be initiated so that flight safety standards are met

26th Nov 2004, 07:51
Has anyone thought that the captain in question might have been the fleet captain / chief training captain ? or any training captain ?, the f/o might have been line training ? and been chopped ?

or he might just be a bit taller than the captain :p

By the way to all you angry f/o's out there, you will never know the captain's job untill you have sat in his seat no matter how long you have been in the right seat, and no matter how sharp you think you are. :ok:

26th Nov 2004, 09:16
We've been down this stony garden path before but its always worth re-visiting.
We all interact with each other according to several factors,incl age,status gender etc.Best CRM always comes with shallow cockpit gradients because mutual respect and trust is usually(but not always)high.Somebody mentioned Al Haynes and the Sioux city crash;I cannot think of a better example.Thats what CRM is all about;Haynes' trust in his crew and a dead-heading skipper was instrumental,and theirs in him,but look at their stats;they were ALL high-timers,huge experience.It was this experience level incidentally that enabled them to cope with a situation for which there was no procedure!
Willie Everlearn' assertion that he has no hesitation in leaving the Captain if he so deems is as controversial as Mercenary Ali's view on First Officers.Neither are correct.First Officers dont leave the aircraft without the Captain's permission for one thing.And a Captain who doesnt show respect and listen to his first officer is a dangerous fool.

CarltonBrowne the FO
26th Nov 2004, 12:30
411A, you have missed my point- probably this was due to my choice of words. I do not constantly question the captain. As I intended to imply in my post, for me to attempt to act counter to his (or her) decision has serious consequences, even if I am right. If I am wrong, I expect it to cost me my job.
As you may gather from this, it is not an action I have yet had to even consider. Realistically, I think it unlikely I will ever have to- even if, as you seem to expect, I spend my entire career in the RHS. In everyday operation, my duty is to support the captain in every way possible. Within the limits set by our company SOPs, I adapt my style of operation to fit the captains' needs, rather than expect them to adapt to mine.
Our company SOPs, however, require both pilots to be in the loop about all important decisions- any doubt about, for instance, a cleared flight level must be verified with ATC. Does it count as "questioning the captain" to ask "Did he say FL330 or 350?"
When I was initially interviewed for my current job, this was carried out by the Chief Pilot and the Director of Flight Operations. At this interview, I was told directly that if I felt the captain's actions to be unsafe, it was my responsiblity to intervene.
One of the best examples of CRM I have ever seen was demonstrated by the Chief Pilot of my last employer (sadly the company later ceased trading).
The first time I flew with him (as a very junior FO) he said:
"I guarantee I make more mistakes than you do. If you see me do anything that you think is wrong, tell me!" He then went on to fly a textbook flight. The standard he set- good technical knowledge, good handling skills, while accepting that he could make mistakes- is one that I have tried to meet ever since.

27th Nov 2004, 00:20
A recent incident at my company.. I work for the training department and recently a FO that I trained got written up by a line captain, saying that he was useless, couldn't fly etc... he wanted the new FO fired.

One of the other Instructors went flying with him for a second opinion and as it turned out he flew just fine. The captain who wrote him up ended up receiving a talking to about remembering the fact that the reason there are two pilots on these airplanes is so that the captain can help teach the new FO's and make them good enough to be captains themselves one day. Not write them up everytime they do something they don't like.
FO's have it very hard, they have to learn to deal with every captain they fly with and adjust the way they do things to make people happy. I've heard different captains tell FO's to do the same thing completely different ways.

5th Dec 2004, 01:04
I have to say that I am very glad I shall be an ex Captain in a couple of years time. My dear father (an ex BOAC/BA training captain) used to bemoan the "new generation" of F/O's who thought they knew it all and knew very little! CRM training has done little to improve the situation. The word I think I am looking for is "humility". . nobody is suggesting that the Captain knows everything, in fact the Captain that knows everything should have retired already. . . because he has nothing left to fly for if he knows it all; but and this is a very big word - but the F/O is not the aircraft commander nor is he in charge of the crew.
Hopefully the Captain will take into consideration the thoughts and suggestions of the F/O BUT it is the Captain who makes the DECISIONS..not the F/O, not the CSD, not the Chief Hostess the Captain. Perhaps in the Halcyon old days of BOAC the Captain was a little O.T.T with his "Wheels up, Flaps up. Shut up" - but when the F/O begins to question the authority of the Captain and declares that he is happy, no! eager to walk off a flight because the Captain has upset his EGO, then CRM has gone very wrong and in my view taken a wrong turn someplace.

For those of you who think (believe) I am a xxxxxxx as suggested by other posters, maybe I am but let me tell you this - I still get some of my old F/O's whom I have not actually flown with nor seen for many years call me up from time to time; they still call me "Boss" (and trust me the respect is mutual) and most of them are now Captains themselves or on the way to command - so I guess I am not so bad as some of you would wish to have me painted!!

Anyways - I question your sanity when you let posts from me wind you up, you should get out more!!

Ha ha ha !!:ok: :ok:

Cruise Alt
5th Dec 2004, 13:51
M Ali 411A et Al...

Look forward to your last words on the CRM. However I don't think they will be on PPRUNE. Most likely I will be reading them in a CVR transcription in a CRM case study. Along with all the others you obviously haven't listened to. Bear in mind, if you actually got it wrong the FO may just be saving YOUR LIFE! as well as PAX and his own.

Just that happened to a colleague in a flag carrying domestic operation. The a/c in question had just been fitted with a new FMS. Captain said he knew how to use it as it was similar to the one on his old type. He went outside SOP and used FMS to establish LOC. At which point A/c turned sharply away from the LOC because the course bar had not been correctly set. The aircraft was then 80 feet from a radio mast and close to striking several blocks of flats (apartments - for the interlectually challenged).



What the report doesnt say is that the FO took control during the go around which is when the flightpath was stabilised.

Gentleman - pride comes before a fall. I look forward to learning form your mistakes.

5th Dec 2004, 23:20
Hi MercenaryAli,

I really like your posting! Thats exactly the way I think. CRM is a very important aspect, a part of our job. But especially the least experianced F/Os sometimes seem to believe, its the major goal of the captain, to make them personally happy. The major goal is to do a safe and efficient job, even if the young lad is not happy with the way of doing it :-).

5th Dec 2004, 23:27
Infernetto -

Many thanks - evidently a well balanced, intellligent and experienced pilot! Thanks be to God there are still some of us around!

Have a Merry Christmas and Safe & Prosperous New Year 2005.

6th Dec 2004, 07:23
Mercenali, perhaps the most disappointing part of aviation is that people like you still get to make a living flying. I'm gladder than you are that you will be an ex Capt in couple of years. Everyone flying will feel safer. Why don't YOU show a little humility . Thank god I don't work for your company, YOU TOO CAN HAVE AN ACCIDENT sir Chuck Yeager of winsor...great leaders use all there RESOURCES.... you know.... the R in CRM. "your old FO's"...sounds like they were your b#tches not your collegues. Maybe I should get out more and you should too instead of throwing stones from that glass castle you live in o royal highness of aviation.

6th Dec 2004, 08:15
You obviously have either not done a crm course or failed miserably given your last posting.

Nowhere on mercenary alis posts did he sink to name calling or the invective you have just spat out.

I bet my left one you are still an f/o!

Look for the sake of clarity let me inform you that the captain has the ultimate authority for the safe operation of the flight and it is his signature on the load sheet, flight plan and as such his licence is on the line...not yours.

You may not agree with the way he does things, but if it is within sop's and not going to endanger the operation then you do it that way ..full stop.

There is nothing in my companies sop's that say I have to give a sector to the first officer and if I thought he was neither experienced enough on type given the operating enviroment or was being a pain in my ass then he would not get the sector.

Having said that , not once in my career have I had to do the latter but my crm skills were tested on the odd occaision!

We have all been f/o's at some stage of our careers and the argumentive ones do indeed take longer to get their commands, if at all.
I will leave it to you to decide which one you want to be.
Now have a merry xmas and drink in some good cheer


6th Dec 2004, 10:33
67 driver - Nothing in M.Ali's posts justify your rant. You ask him to show humility, but what I've noticed, following this thread, is that while the captains are very willing to admit their vulnerability to errors, all the FOs do is repeat that "Captains can make errors". Yes, we all know that.

The fact that the FO can also be wrong seems to have been overlooked (by the FOs). That fits with what I was saying earlier about a new breed of FOs who think they are in command if they disagree with the Commander.

In a disagreement, in the air, someone has to have the final say. Should it be the one who can shout loudest? No, if the thing cannot be resolved by mutual agreement the Captain must decide.

6th Dec 2004, 13:35
When you think you have all the answers, Life comes and changes all the questions

CarltonBrowne the FO
6th Dec 2004, 16:01
The fact that the FO can also be wrong seems to have been overlooked (by the FOs).
Sadly, I make as many mistakes as most other pilots. (I made one or two embarassing ones on this morning's early shift. Good thing the Captain spotted them. Thanks Pete).
The point I failed to make earlier (I also sometimes make mistakes or omissions in my posts on PPRuNe :rolleyes: ) is that if a Captain makes a mistake which I spot, it does not lessen the respect I have for him (or her). There are times when I ask a skipper about something and the mistake turns out to be mine. It is still safer to ask...

6th Dec 2004, 16:51
So if you decide to go below mins on a approach your FO should just sit there with his thumb up his rear and say sir yes sir. "The FO could be wrong" really what an amazing discovery you've made, guess what so could you. Obviously right?, of course the PIC has final authority, no matter what his title is, that's not what my rant as opposed to your rant is aimed at. I am a PIC.

My crew is my last line of defence from my own mistakes. Safety first, not Captain first, or FO first, or anyone first, it's not a p#ssing contest gentlemen.

6th Dec 2004, 17:12
There may be reasons, but there are two people in the cockpit for a very good reason, whatever the misunderstanding, toys must be kept in the cot at all times..

Can't really get rid of people you don't agree with. Imagine some of the systems onboard acted like this. We have multiple systems for redundancy, thank god they are machines!!

Obviously this guy will get severely questioned, and I am dying to find out more.. ie the F/O tried to roll the thing, or he did something very unsafe. Maybe he didn't agree to spoon with the cpt on the night stop!!

lone Falcon
6th Dec 2004, 19:11

I fully agree with you on this one buddy, it looks like we are having a big thing about Capt this F/O that ......

Hey Captains are not always right, Surely the Capt is the boss of the A/C the F/O is equally responsible for the safety of that A/C.

However I do know, that Air India has some F/O's that are there b/c of Influence and use of Political power. Maybe the F/O was just one of them.

End of the Day, we want to fly safe so keep the fight pending until out at the BAR:}


7th Dec 2004, 09:56
On the contrary I am not having a rant at all, I am just stating it like it is.

As for sitting there with "your thumb up your bum" as you put it while your captain goes below minimums then you have not comprehended what I said or do not understand the meaning of sops.

I don't know of any airline except maybe yours that has an sop that says you can go below minimums if you arent visual.

Read what I said

11th Dec 2004, 08:40
For six7driver - I am sorry that you feel the way you do! You are obviously in need of therapy your rudeness astonishes me! No they were, and I hope still are, my ex-colleagues, my friends and fellow pilots. I am sure you have missed the point and evidently have no idea what SOP's are about; when we reach(ed) DH or DA and nothing was seen except the inside of cloud we went around that is not what this is all about! Get out more and mix with sane people it might help!


For all those of you who have understood what I was writing about and where I was coming from and have shown support; a sincere Thank You gentlemen and of course ladies!

To you all a Very Merry Christmas and Prosperous New Year 2005 and will someone please send six7driver on a CRM course he evidently needs one when he sinks to the name calling and invective he uses in his posts.

Retirement to my ranch in Tn will be wonderful!!

:ok: :ok: :ok:

11th Dec 2004, 20:24
Lone Falcon, you stated:

"However I do know, that Air India has some F/O's that are there b/c of Influence and use of Political power. Maybe the F/O was just one of them"

I'm sure what you stated above was meant with no ill intention and while I do not disagree with you, I think the cooment was very unfair.

What were talking about here is Nepotism plain and simple. Funny, I know another country whose airline culture have for decades operated on this principle - It was pretty much the basis for the way it was plain and simple for a long time - who you know and not what you know or how good you are or if "he is one of us" (I say he as for a long time "a she" was simply unthinkable). Even today, it exists greater than you may think - I (like most I bet) know quite a few people who got airline jobs because they had contacts or influence - the fact that they could not fly or were substandard had nothing to do with it and that country is the UK.

We are great over here at critising other countries for what they do but we think we are so much better than anyone else when it comes to morality - we are not - Nepotism has always been a large & silent part of the UK pilot hiring process and always will be and the UK is probably the best and largest example of it in the Western world. The fact is it exists everywhere - its just the level of it that differs. I have no problem if someone gets a job if they have contacts IF they can justify it - ie, the person is fully capable of doing the job to standards required - period. It is called networking. What I detest is when they just get a job just because they are connected and cannot do the job and displace someone who is truly deserving. I think we here in the UK should recognise our own double standards (which we incidentally export all over the world) before then accusing others of it - it smacks of pure backward, hypocritical colonial attiudes. Compared to what it claims to be, The UK is probably one of the nepotistic, collusional, prejudicial and unfair pilot hiring markets around. Like it or not, it is fact.

12th Dec 2004, 02:49
Spicy X,
An IMHO at the end of your post would not be astray.


12th Dec 2004, 20:02
Prospector: You stated:

"An IMHO at the end of your post would not be astray."


The very poiny being that it is not an opinion, but FACT, precludes me or anyone else from doing so. (by definition, facts are incompatible with opinions). Please read last line again. I would however be interested, as a New Zealander, why you take issue with what was stated - do you know something from over there, that we who have lived with the reality of culture of pilot hiring in the UK for the last few decades that we do not? If so, please kindly inform and enlighten us UK nationals with fact and relevant information and I am sure we will be very grateful to you. I know I will be.

13th Dec 2004, 03:57
Spicy X,
You say the UK is probably the most etc etc etc
Do you know the hiring policy of the rest of the worlds airlines?
Then you state it is a fact what you think of UK hiring policy

How could one person in one life time know everything about all the airlines in the UK and their hiring procedures. Can you state your opinions are fact?? Would everybody in the UK agree with your statement?? If not how could it be a fact???


13th Dec 2004, 17:59
Prospector: You stated:

"You say the UK is probably the most etc etc etc
Do you know the hiring policy of the rest of the worlds airlines?
Then you state it is a fact what you think of UK hiring policy

How could one person in one life time know everything about all the airlines in the UK and their hiring procedures. Can you state your opinions are fact?? Would everybody in the UK agree with your statement?? If not how could it be a fact???"

First of all, I think nearly everybody in aviation would agree with me with the old saying - "its not what you know but who you know" that can open up doors for one in aviation. It is very well known and accepted here in the UK (and most places) - I cannot comment about NZ as I have no information or experience of. But then, I wonder who you are to question me about my comments on my own country's aviation history. You hardly seem qualified being in another hemisphere. I think I know more about hiring in the UK than you and I presume you know more about hiring in NZ than I do. I also stated the nepotism exists everywhere - it's just the degree of it that differs. You did not seem to have a problem when lone falcon stated (in good faith I believe) that the AI F/O got his job via influence.

Secondly, I never claimed to know the rest of the worlds airlines hiring policies - I never even mentioned them, so why you made the comment bemuses me. I just made factual statements about the UK pilot hiring history and philosophy. (I wish you would read what was written.) For your information, the very basis of UK civilian pilot hiring was based on a traditional model of hiring from the military, That is historical and fact. The airlines operated like this HERE for decades. As such, such cultures permeated their way through the entire industry for a long time. If you weren't from a military background - you did not get in. Fact. Civilians had a very tough time, as did women. As did coloured people. As did white people who were simply "not the right stock" or spoke with "that funny northern accent." Yes, things have progressed greatly and are moving in the right direction, but the fact (not what I think, but what I & most HERE know, is that the issue of nepotism, exists here, always has existed and always will exist. What you do not understand as a foreigner that WE do as a BRITS is that is part of our culture. Virtually everyone here knows this and of the very many pilots I know here, most know at least someone who got a job through nepotism. If they can do the job - fine, but I only have issue if they just get in because of contacts, cannot fly and displace a truly deserving person who can. I have no problems with networking.

When you have lived here a lifetime and been part of the process then please pass comments as to my sincerity - if you haven't, don't try to twist things or at least try to understand hat was being read. I stated 'probably' as I do not know which country in Western World (not the rest of the world as you improperly stated) is worst but FACT in the case that the UK is a prime contender. I never stated I knew all the UK airlines hiring policies, but I believe, living over here, humbly put, I have a greater understanding (as do most who live here) than you do, so I am far more factual in my comments than you are.

Let me try a give you a simple example: it is FACT here that the Head of the UK Police and after several official enquiries have declared the UK Police system is "INSTITUTIONALLY RACIST" This is a matter of public record. Does it mean that all UK Police officers are racist? Of course not. What it means is that the very controlling foundation/system in which they OPERATE is racist. Most people in the UK knew this for decades, but as most things, it was covered up or denied by the system. We brits are used to a duality of systems and are wellm aware of it. you it seems are not. It is now, because of changes in society and the outlook of the majority of modern police officers who brought this out into the open as they were being seen to be racist when they were not. The same principle applies to the UK pilot hiring market - everyone knows that nepotism plays a big part as it is a large part of the hiring culture - it's just that it is not made official. The reason is I believe, due to an imbalance of power and a lack of transparency & accountability (and that is my opinion).

Having trained over 200 military pilots from around the world for military to civilian transition training in addition over cadets from airlines ranging from Europe, USA, Middle East, Far East & South America and being involved with the hiring /selection teams for many of these, I have learnt a LITTLE bit about what goes on within certain airlines from certain countries and certain cultures. It is by no means all knowing but just my learning, experience of. I am however allowed to state FACT about my own country which what I did. Please do try try to twist things around and be a little more circumspect before making personal comments. I will tell you one thing though, I do believe that a person or entity exists that does know everything about everything and it is a FACT that it is not me, and IMHO, PROBABLY NOT YOU either.

14th Dec 2004, 00:40
Spicy X,
You stated,
"The UK is probably one of the most nepotistic, collusional, and prejudicial pilot hiring markets around, like it or not it is a fact."

Nepotistic: Happens everywhere, would be most suprised if the UK was the most "around"

Collusional: My dictionary states (Collusion, collusive, collusively,but not collusional)"Secret and illegal co-operation for the purpose of fraud or other criminal activity" Really?? in the pilot hiring market??

Prejudicial: You will have to explain exactly what you mean by "round". I took it to mean around the world. If this is correct I can assure you that the UK is not the most prejudicial in pilot hiring, or any other hiring.

What you state as IMHO would be all I would accept as a fact, I am quite certain I do not know " everything about everything".


15th Dec 2004, 22:41
Blah Blah
Anyone got anything worth reading on this - you remember - about the thread

16th Dec 2004, 13:34
A wee bit of frivolity, meaning ,no disrespect,

"The First Officer." ( Been there , done that.)

I am the First Officer, I sit on the right,
It's up to me to quite and bright;
I never talk back for I have regrets,
But I have to remember what the Captain forgets.

I make out the flight plan and study the weather,
Pull up the gear, stand by to feather;
Make out the mail forms & do the reporting,
And fly the old crate while the Captain is courting.

I take the readings, adjust the power,
Put on the heaters when we're in for a shower;
Tell him were we are on the darkest night,
And do all the bookwork without any light.

I call for my Captain & buy him cokes;
I always laugh at his corny jokes,
And once in a while when his landings are rusty,
I always come through with, "By gosh it's gusty"

All in all I'm a general stooge,
As I sit on the right of the man I call "Scrooge " ,
I guess you think that is past understanding,
But maybe some day, he will give me a landing .

Author, Unknown to me.

Is it work or pleasure for the Capt. to go bed with the Hostess?
Definately pleasure!
For if it was work, the First Officer would have to do it



Capt, retired, ex FIRST OFFICER

21st Dec 2004, 20:42
At last some sanity prevails!

Merry Christmas to all the readers and posters!

Happy New Year 2005.:ok: