View Full Version : The new Dutch oven

West Coast
18th Nov 2004, 04:12

While the death of Van Gogh is tragic, the over the top response of the Dutch on both sides is regrettable. The open society the Dutch brag about may find some restrictions in the future. Imagine if there had been nearly 3000 deaths as in 9/11 and not just one.

18th Nov 2004, 07:45
I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make here, if you are wondering how the Dutch would have coped if 3000 had been murdered you should try to imagine what it must have been like living in Holland during the early 1940's. Whilst the World Trade Centre incident in your country is very tragic and we were all shocked and upset by it, just remember that the Dutch were there sixty years before you.

18th Nov 2004, 07:52
Every free culture will have to join this fight some day. These people are sitting around all over the world plotting where to strike next. I've come to the conclusion none of us are safe until they are eliminated or sent back to their homelands to create the utopia they seek.

Public opinion seems to be following the Neocon model. Former leftists becoming the most outspoken rightists. It's going to be interesting watching developments there.

18th Nov 2004, 07:53
It is rather difficult to work out what point West Coast is trying to make, but it could be either an attack on Europeans and/or Muslims. Whichever, it is a win/win for some nasty xenophobic views.

Ben There - Theo van Gough was a professional trouble maker and made many films and wrote many things that managed to piss off a huge number of people. Had I made a film that implied that Dutchmen were all peadophiles and wife beaters I reckon my fate would maybe not be as brutal as van Gough's but life would not be easy.

The Dutch image of a tolerant society is, in my experience, not much more than a thin veneer. Being an allochtone in the Netherlands isn't always fun.

Public opinion seems to be following the Neocon model

If that is the case, and I find it difficult to believe, then I want a ticket out of this life.

18th Nov 2004, 08:08
BenThere is correct - there is a massive lurch to the right in the west. For example Tony "Its the Right Thing To Do" Blair, the Best Friend of right winger George W Bush, is supposed to be the leader of the Labour Party - the left wing of British politics.

Don't you find it scary that the People's Republic of China is already much more welcoming than the USA and that the good people of Holland are now almost as bad? Its reaching the point where right-wing extremism and xenophobia are becoming respectable - now where have we seen that before and what was the end result?

I used to find the old cold war Red's Under The Bed mentality strange enough, but now we're seeing terrorists everywhere. Did anyone notice that the first of the Madrid Bombers to be put away is actually a Spanish teenager who has never been near an "Al Qaeda" training camp?

tony draper
18th Nov 2004, 08:14
Indeed, life is getting better for us right wing xenophobs.

18th Nov 2004, 08:23
Not sure what point you trying to make here, WC. Fact is that most arrested Muslim extremists do have ties with al-Qaeda and they have connections all over Europe, most actions have been coordinated from Spain and their mental coaches are in Germany (a Syrian currently being looked for) and Switzerland (a Morrocan, being arrested and waiting to be extradited).

And yes, over the top reaction of some Dutch is very regrettable, extremists are present in every society. It's up to the leaders of the country to react in a proper way. Both the Queen and Prime Minister have visited several Muslim schools and mosques to show that not all Muslims are extremists and that only together fighting extremists will eventually will bring a solution.

Dutch intelligence is not properly adapted to Muslim terrorism, I agree. We can learn a lot from the French intelligence who have their antennas in most of the Muslim community in France.

As I said before, Europe will be the battlefield in the future between the West and Mulims extremists and I still have no clue what the war in Iraq will add to the solution, other than it will fuel the recrution of thousand of Jihad terrorists all over the world.

18th Nov 2004, 08:33
No-one can appreciate, nor really be qualified to comment extensively on, a country's national culture unless you have actually lived in that culture for some time. (I mean at least a couple of years...not weeks.)
Flypuppy makes a very salient point.
What appears to the outside world as a general state of affairs in a country can either be a stereo-typical, almost characterized, image/perception.
The Dutch people, I have found, are no more tolerant of things than other nationalities. The fact that euthenasia, prostitution, cannabis are legal here is not indicative of a nation of open minded liberals. While it is true that on a legislative level there are wider tolerances, I would say that there are far more narrow minded attitudes in many areas of the society. Again, no different than virtually every other country.
Here in The Hague, the population is an extreme of multi-nationalism with so many embassies, International Organisations and companies etc. So much so that the very large ex-pat community places an often higher than normal pressure on general soceity when it comes to tolerance.
Example, 11yr old girl sitting quietly on a bench outside her school (French School in Netherlands) gets her face slapped and told she can not sit there because she is not Dutch.
Not an isolated incident, another teenaged French girl was beaten up at a tram stop for the same reasons last year.
These incidents are not much different than inter school or "territorial" rivalry that happens elsewhere. However, it just illustrates the fact that tolerance for foreigners in the Netherlands is not an incredibly open and all encompassing lovey dovey liberal scenario that much of the world would perceive it to be.
Having said all that, the rugby club here is well pleased to have me coaching and my two boys playing there along with a bunch of other English+French players....it helps raise the level of their game ;) :ok:

18th Nov 2004, 08:35

I question if there is a real "lurch to the right" or whether the right wing nutters are just able to shout louder and grab the headlines more.While Tony Blair seems joined at the hip with Bush, remember the largest ever demonstrations in the UK were against the invasion of Iraq?While the right wing were screaming blue murder that the Contryside Alliance march represented democracy at work but when twice as many people turned out (just in London, over 2,000,000 people protested around the UK) to protest the self same people argued that 1 million people only represented a tiny minority and they should be ignored.

The media plays a huge role in educating the masses and forming opinion. While 3,000 people died in NYC and Washington on September 11th 2001, I really do wonder if the impact of those attacks would have been as great if we had NOT seen it played out on TV. While 9/11 has become an almost religious date, the 15th of July barely registers a flicker on the collective world concience, despite the deaths of 8,000 people.

The Murdoch media empire has been much more accomodating to the right wing politicians than the more independant minded media outlets. While Ben There will have us believe that there is a huge network of Muslim terrorist networks "out there" trying to destroy our way of life, I have difficulty in believing that. If there was a huge network, why did they not take 9/11 as the bugle call and start their worlwide uprising then - when most Western countries were at their most vulnerable?

I am sure the Neo Cons will come back at me saying I am naeive blah blah blah, but why should we believe the Neo Cons? They are all standing four square behind governments that were, and still are, willing to manipulate the truth and even bare faced lie to us over one of the most serious things a government can do - take us to war.


Dutch tolerance has allowed, indeed encouraged immigrants to flood the country.

I am sorry to say, but that statement is false. Dutch emigration far exceeded immigration up until the late 1960's/early 1970's. All the dirty jobs that the Dutch wouldnt do had to be done by someone, so there was a deliberate recruitment policy by both the Dutch and German governments in Turkey and Morroco to bring people to work in lower paid jobs.


I can relate to those "you're not Dutch" stories. My own personal experiences do not give me a high regard for certain sections of the Dutch community, and I have no trust in the Dutch police force (specifically Rotterdam-Rijnmond) anymore. Especially when my 4 year old daughter is bullied by a group of 16 year olds and told she is not pure Dutch and should go back to her own country and they will do nothing about it. :confused: :yuk:

18th Nov 2004, 08:53
governments that were, and still are, willing to manipulate the truth and even bare faced lie to us over one of the most serious things a government can do - take us to war.

That's the lurch to the right I was talking about Flypuppy While we shouldn't generalise about the beliefs of whole national populations, we can and must examine the behaviour of national governments. For instance, I can visit the PRC without having my fingerprints taken, being photographed and having my personal life and background checked. The PRC has moved slightly to the right and become more tolerant. Western countries have moved very much to the right, so much that racial or religious intolerance is beginning to be respectable.

Meanwhile my UK bank no longer permits me to transfer money from my local bank account to my UK bank account through the internet. I live and work in an Islamic state and its meant to prevent Al Qaeda moving funds about apparently. I can of course carry the cash around in a briefcase.

If the paranoia trend continues...?

18th Nov 2004, 09:35
Holland is very accurately portrayed by DishMan and Flypuppy. Some laws viewed by the outside world as 'liberal'. By and large laws supported and taken as a matter of course by the population. Having a 'popular liberal' view on euthanasia, hash and prostitution does not mean however that the very same population is any less xenophobic than the rest of the world. (For example: both my kids and I are regularly told here in Norway to "f**k off back to where we came from" when we are heard to speak a different language in public. Norway, like Holland, prides itself on being a liberal inclusive society.)
The liberal and the xenophobic do not contradict eachother, even if that notion defies traditional labelling.

Just spent the past 5 days in Holland and the murder of van Gogh has indeed wrought some marked changes at work and in society generally.
People are taken a stand one way or another.
Overnight it has apparently become acceptable for some of our pilots to make overt racist comments about Morrocans. The kind of thing that would not have been deemed smart to say publicly only 3 weeks ago by these same guys.
People like our younger female FAs who are not normally given to commenting much on the social political aspects of society, make a point of actually contradicting the pilots and saying that most muslims are not extremists but law abiding family folk.
The Prime Minister and the Queen are making an all out effort to remind the muslim part of the population that they are as Dutch as the rest of us by very publicly visiting muslim schools, mosques and community centers.

It looks like there is a struggle going on between the faction that wants to 'exclude and prosecute' and the faction that wants to 'include and prevent'. Again, very much like what we see happening in other countries.
The outcome of this debate in the western world is impossible to predict. It's a battle fought grimly om many levels in society, only time will tell where we land.

18th Nov 2004, 10:00
Flaps, the murder on Van Gogh has only amplified the changes already apparent the last 3 years. The assasinated Pim Fortuyn became very popular with the slogan "Holland is Full" and his dislike of the Islam ("a stupid religion"). Ironically he was murdered by an autochtone enviromentalist extremist.

Important for the government is to control damage, increase pressure on the Islamic extremists and prevent further widening of the gap.

Example, 11yr old girl sitting quietly on a bench outside her school (French School in Netherlands) gets her face slapped and told she can not sit there because she is not Dutch. Never heard of both incidents and certainly very untypical!

18th Nov 2004, 10:20
I very much doubt if you would have heard of those incidents I cited. As 99.99% of the population of , for example, Belgium (just a country name picked at random - nothing inferred!!) would not hear about a similar incident that may occur outside of the British School in Brussels.......so don't feel too bad about it ;)
It was enough of a concern that the police were called to "keep an eye out" for a while....now that would not be warranted for a single "one off & untypical" occurrence.
I am sorry to say, such events are not isolated.
(One, again French, lady being shouted at for being a "F..ng English" by her neighbour who should "go home".....if you want a detailed list, I could go on and on...)
BUT this is NOT much different from any other city society in countries where ex-pats/foreigners are present in high numbers.

I should also note that there are many many Dutch who are very happy to have us "ex-pats" here!
Like all the shops along the main shopping street near my home. Without the French+German communities they would lose half their trade and even more if the Criminal Tribunal or OPCW closed down.

Don't forget also that many of the ex-pats who are not Int. Civil Servants have also been attracted to the Netherlands because of their special skills/knowledge and enjoy tax breaks as a result. I'm one of them....but this is a result of the Dutch system encouraging such employment situations!

18th Nov 2004, 10:21
KAOS, you live there and I just visit, so I accept the fact that the changes have gone on for longer that I am aware of. One has to live in a place to really know what is going on.

As for you saying that the events described by DM and FP are very untypical, I respectfully submit that you are not really 'qualified' to give an opinion. ;) You are Dutch and probably white, and as such would not experience happenings like these, nor are you likely to hear about them. Same way my Norwegian friends without exeption find it almost impossible to believe me when I tell them about the xenophobia that we experience here.
DM and FP are both foreigners living in Holland with their families. They know better than you and me how their kids get treated at times.

Some things you only know when you live them.

Curious Pax
18th Nov 2004, 10:28
Lived in The Hague for nearly 5 years in the '90s, and while overall found it a good experience I did feel that the PR job abroad on the stereotypical cuddly Dutch wasn't matched by the reality I encountered - much like any other nationality I guess.

As has been mentioned, the casual racism towards the Turks/North Africans seemed fairly widespread, and attitudes towards women in the workplace (in terms of having women bosses rather than sexual harassment) seemed oldfashioned - it wasn't popular. They had more things in common with the Germans than was diplomatic to suggest (viewed a bit like suggesting we Brits have anything in common with the French!), and the driving was definitely Italian in flavour ('but you should see the Belgians' was always the reply!).

Did find it amusing however when visiting Germany a few times in the course of work to hear the Germans referring to the Dutch in much the same way as everyone else refers to the Germans!

18th Nov 2004, 10:34
Dishman, I'm sure the incidents did happen as you described them, yet these have never been a major issue or trend like what's happening now with the Muslim population. As I said, extreme behaviour is everywhere, but I consider these incidents as "incidents" not a typical Dutch behaviour. I lived most of my life in Amsterdam and I've never been to a more international place, except, may be, New York...

PS Latest survey showed that Dutch found the Germans most symphatic of all, how things can change ;)

18th Nov 2004, 11:13
Interesting to see an 'outside view' of all the goings on in this small country of ours. :ok:

Indeed the shock over Van Gogh's murder was profound, but already this was 3 weeks ago and since then life has more or less kept on its usual steady course. For now the retributions seem to have died down, or at least are smaller scale and therefore staying out of the press. As Flaps pointed out there are more people stating opinions these days, but I don't think that the general consensus shifted all that much, the only difference is the fact that is it being voiced more often now.

Personally I feel that the media have overplayed some of the angles of this case. Indeed the murderer appears to be a moslim extremist but the news seems to be very much polarized towards the 'witch hunt' which seems to be happening now. Some expression about a well and a drowned calf springs to mind here.

Another hot topic is the 'freedom of speech' angle. Everybody is up in arms about this, but somehow fails to see that even within a 'free society' many of the musings of Van Gogh, which he liberally voiced on TV and in the papers, were extremely abusive towards many religions and cultures. The scenario of an extremist jew who suddenly decided he'd had enough of Van Gogh could easily have happened, and you can substitute jew for Christian in that sentence as well. While nothing can pardon the murder, it is ironic that Van Gogh's views (which triggered his murder) in itself were xenophobic and his murder has only strengthened this element in our society. Prospective murderers take note of this! ;)

18th Nov 2004, 11:15
With respect, Kaos,

Amsterdam is not necessarily representative of The Netherlands. I have lived in Leeuwarden and now just outside Rotterdam. While the incidents Dishman and myself have related may be "just incidents" but one of them happened to my daughter.

I don't really care if it is isolated or not, but the attitude of the local police when I reported the matter was interesting. I speak reasonably fluent Dutch, so when I went to the police station and reported the matter, explained the situation and identified two of the teenagers, all was well until I was asked for my date and place of birth, the comment was "oh, je ben geen Nederlander..." and from that point on, my complaint didn't seem to be quite as interesting anymore. This despite I knew who two of the teenagers were. All of a sudden, there was nothing they could do for me.

Other more unpleasant experiences have been met with similar reactions from the local police. I am white but non Dutch, I sometimes wonder what non Dutch non whites must feel about life there. I do always bear in mind that apartheid is a Dutch word.

18th Nov 2004, 12:03
On a lesser scale, my eldest Daughter 13 rides horses regularly.
She has yet, after four years in the same club, to be accepted as just an ordinary girl riding.
She speaks excellent Dutch - communication is no issue for her, however, she is always "the buitenlander". The only Dutch girl who has been friendly towards her actually has a naturalized English mum.......

Neither I nor, I believe Flypuppy, is saying anything here that should be construed as complaining or moaning about what goes on.
We chose to live here, temporarily or longterm, and we put up with things.
I am just trying to express the impressions that I have which differ quite a lot from the "normal Dutch Liberal anything goes we are incredibly tollerant" impression that people who do not live here seem to have of the Netherlands. (And which I too had before I moved here!)
Furthermore, there are three distinct mindsets in the company where I work.
The "American" one (all our senior staff are American) which therefore tends to be the company line, the "British+other" perceptions and the Dutch one.
The majority of the staff is ex-pat yet everyone in HR is Dutch.
Believe me it is a non-stop uphill struggle for anyone who has an "ex-pat" type problem or approaches things from an anglo-phone perspective when dealing with HR.
Oft times these problems are personal and there is simply no, or virtually no, comprehension that ex-pats have different perceptions or expectations. "You're in Holland" is the catch all response. No point trying to discuss, the blinkers come on and the ear plugs go in. Again, it's a corporate issue that senior staff do not get exposed to due to the cotton wool protection of their extremely comfortable salaries....so it's never peceived as a problem, despite the fact that virtually all of us ex-pats were brought here from overseas because the expertise we have is in a VERY small market that does not exist in Netherlands yet no allowance is made by HR staff for that.

Anyway, grumpy mode OFF - one just partook of some decent fish+chips from Scheveningen harbour. :ok:

18th Nov 2004, 12:45
It's interesting how perceptions about a place can change once you live there. I've known a handful of Dutch and interestingly, each of the men were gruff, paternalistic, and dogmatic, given to snap judgments on any subject. The women I know, however, fit my stereotype: Gentle, tolerant, live-and-let-live.

By the same token, I lived in France for some time. Although my views of the French-American conflict would steer me to boycott French goods and do anything I could to undermine Chirac, my many French friends, my love of the language and the elegance of les choses francais, and certainty that the people I know there mean well, precluded me from joining the bandwagon of attackers, and I find myself constantly defending France as not being the enemy.

Having said all that, however, France, more than any European country, must wake up to the danger of the Islamic Jihad threat, as the Dutch are now doing. Madrid and 9/11 can be repeated anywhere and all the 'religion of peace' bs will only prolong the agony of the basic conflict between Western culture and violent Islamic fundamentalism.

18th Nov 2004, 13:38
I don't think the Belgians are any better off:



Belgian Socialist senator of Moroccan origin, Mimount Bousakla (http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&ie=UTF-8&ncl=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4019737.stm) has gone into hiding after being threatened with "ritual slaughter" for her campaign against child marriages, denial of women's rights and criticism of fundamentalist preaching in Belgian mosques

Back to the 'Dutch Oven' concept:Holland Is Still Not Saying “al Qaeda” out Loud

DEBKAfile Special Report (http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=938)

November 15, 2004, 12:00 AM (GMT+02:00)

The Netherlands authorities still resort to a dozen roundabout locutions to avoid admitting that their country has been invaded by hidden al Qaeda cells. That word is still taboo in liberal Holland, even after the country was shocked out of its complacency by the ritual murder on November 2 of filmmaker Theo van Gogh in broad daylight on an Amsterdam street. He was attacked after Dutch television aired his documentary "Submission" which exposed some Islamic customs towards women.

The 13 Muslim radicals arrested after the murder were described as "members of a (nameless) radical Islamic group with international links." Its Syrian-born spiritual leader, a multi-named character called Redouan al-Issar, 43, has vanished without trace. One of his aliases is Abu Khaled, the name used by al Qaeda fugitive Mohammed Bahaiah, a courier between Osama bin Laden and European cells.

Dutch intelligence calls the ring, composed mostly of young Dutch Muslims of North African descent, the "Hofstad Netwerk," and admits it has links in Spain and Belgium and that several of its members have traveled to Pakistan for training. The official sources do not say which organization provided the training.

Van Gogh's killer, 26-year old Mohammed Bouyeri, a Dutch-Moroccan, was arrested in a fight with police after shooting his victim six times and slitting his throat. He then impaled two knives in his chest - one with a note attached threatening more attacks on Dutch politicians in the name of radical Islam.

Reminded of the 2002 assassination of the popular Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn - after he warned that Islamic intolerance was a "new fascism" - thousands of Netherlanders turned out to protest the murder; 20 mosques and schools were attacked or torched and some churches damaged in retaliation. The right-of-center government has come under heavy crossfire – from some quarters for failing to understand and assimilate the Muslim immigrants, but increasingly by parliamentarians and ordinary citizens for its tardiness in the name of Dutch tolerance in tackling the rising jihadist threat.

Under pressure to level with the public, on November 12, interior minister Johan Remkes who is responsible for the secret service released a statement on the Hofstad Netwerk.

The number of persons and networks thinking and acting in terms of actual violence, he wrote, may be limited, but "the feeding ground from which they spring… runs into thousands…"

The Dutch secret service has kept some 200 suspected terrorists under surveillance since the Sept. 11 attacks in America. One, Jason W., was arrested in The Hague last Wednesday, November 10, together with a second suspect, after a 14-hour standoff with the police during which one of them lobbed a hand grenade that injured four officers. The area was sealed off and a no-fly zone imposed over the city before the pair were finally arrested and charged with conspiracy to commit murder.

The Dutch group received some of its orders from Abdeladim Akoudad, whom the Moroccan government believed involved in the May 2003 terrorist strikes in Casablanca which killed 32, and who was arrested near Barcelona in October 2003 at Rabat's request. Akoudad's detention led to the roundup in the Netherlands of five suspects in October 2003, including Samir Azzouz, a friend of van Gogh's killer Bouyeri. The five were planning violent attacks on Amsterdam's Schiphol airport, the Dutch parliament and the Borssele nuclear reactor.

Most recently, three members of the Dutch network traveled to Portugal for the 2004 European soccer championships. They were arrested and deported on suspicion of plotting an attack.

The statement by the Dutch interior minister did not save him from a no-confidence motion in parliament over the government's handling of the fallout from the van Gogh murder. The motion was defeated but the criticism and complaints of unanswered questions continue - such as why was not the filmmaker adequately protected after he made his documentary.

Jozias van Aartsen, head of the Liberal WD party, which is a member of the government coalition, accused the cabinet of being naïve about Muslim extremism and demanded tougher legal measures to combat the threat. "Dialogue is important" he said, "but not the number one measure. You don't reach out to extremists with a government information campaign. This murderer is not a poor, lonely immigrant. That is not his profile. The killing was the product of international jihad." (al Qaeda?)

Other MPs urged the government to control further outbreaks against Muslims to avoid generating a climate conducive to extremist recruitment.

While the debate raged, Queen Beatrix was drafted in by Amsterdam Mayor Job Cohen. In a bid to restore social harmony, she visited Moroccans at a multicultural youth center. She also voiced her concern over the murder of the great grandson of Theo van Gogh, brother of the famous Dutch painter Vincent van Gogh.

The Dutch government has meanwhile put together a new package of new counter-terrorism measures, which expands the scope of the General Intelligence and Security Service (AIVD), increases the number of people under surveillance and permits the deportation of extremist imams and the removal of Dutch nationality from people with dual citizenship who are convicted of terrorist crimes.

The newly-awakened public is now asking why those measures were not enacted two years ago.

The answer came from one of their own.

Last week, NATO secretary general Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, former Dutch foreign minister, described "a perception gap" on global terror between Europe and the United States, as a result of which Europe lagged behind the US in merging external and internal security to combat terrorism. He urged Europe to catch up. Scheffer was the first foreign statesman to be received by President George W. Bush after his election.

18th Nov 2004, 13:47
Flypuppy, it may come as a comfort to you, the few times I had a complaint filed with the Dutch police, the luke warm reaction was just like you have experienced. In fact that's a main local problem currently.

DishMan, this attitude I experienced myself in Germany, France and Italy, where I stayed for business for a longer period of time. I believe it's inter communcial. And for your daughter, she's kindly invited to ride horse together with my daughter, she loves to practise her English ;)

BenThere, French intelligence is infiltrated in most of the Islam community in France already. Many countries, including Holland, can learn a great deal from them.

Holland Is Still Not Saying “al Qaeda” out Loud Strange, it's all over in the news here already? Not a taboo at all....

18th Nov 2004, 13:58
I'm presuming that the "Holland Is Still Not Saying “al Qaeda” out Loud" is referring to the Government/Authorities and not the media.

18th Nov 2004, 14:04
Capt KAOS.
You've basically confirmed what I was saying.....Netherlands is no diferent than anywhere else ;)

Thanks for the invite.
You never know...the Randstad isn't such a big place after all!

18th Nov 2004, 14:07
Danny, for this I would refer to my earlier statement: "Dutch intelligence is not properly adapted to Muslim terrorism, I agree. We can learn a lot from the French intelligence who have their antennas in most of the Muslim community in France." and yes, just like during the Kahn nuke spy case in the 70's, many times the government acts incredibly incompetent.

18th Nov 2004, 14:53
We can learn a lot from the French intelligence who have their antennas in most of the Muslim community in France.Methinks the same could apply to the Israeli intelligence which is why I also listen when they are a 'source'. ;)

18th Nov 2004, 15:18
BenThere Having said all that, however, France, more than any European country, must wake up to the danger of the Islamic Jihad threatFrance already had some bloody experience of Islamic bombings (Google for attentats + "Tati" or "RER St Michel"). Remember that in 1994 Algerian islamists hijacked an Air France Airbus (AF8969 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_8969)) and were planning to crash it into the Eiffel Tower. They were stopped (dead) in Marseille.

18th Nov 2004, 15:37
As I said earlier, I choose to live and work in an Islamic State. I've been on the receiving end of racism but WTH, that's to be expected by anyone who chooses to live in a foreign country. Every nation has a few with their own particular axe to grind. The overwhelming majority though, are welcoming, hospitable people. Good people who love life, respect their neighbours of whatever origin and believe in the same principles of good fellowship and family values as most of the human race.

That's why its important for those of us who are in the majority to refuse to accept this move towards xenophobia. We must resist. I don't believe that even Drapes - a working class chap from Tyneside when all's said and done - can be half as right wing as he makes out. The world is one. Let's keep it that way.

PPRuNe Radar
18th Nov 2004, 15:53
Overnight it has apparently become acceptable for some of our pilots to make overt racist comments about Morrocans. The kind of thing that would not have been deemed smart to say publicly only 3 weeks ago by these same guys.

You could always point out that they are working for a French airline and should behave as the French would ;)

West Coast
18th Nov 2004, 15:56
I wonder if the Dutch government will manage its terrorism problems with better intelligence apparatus or will some of the societies openness be affected? I would think it would have to be a combo of both. Small country or not, there is way any Intel service can be Johnny on the spot to surveil every secretive individual or group. Its easy to theorize the reason for Al queda type organizations to want to set up shop in the Netherlands. An ability to easily blend in minus too many questions. Perhaps some of those rights will have to softened so a few more questions are asked.

18th Nov 2004, 16:01
Just sitting here wondering wether I should get involved in this strange thread full of extreme opinions..........................

But my upbringing tought me to accept that people have their own point of view, coloured by their experiences which are not always a general pattern of (the Dutch) society.

Ik laat jullie daarom maar alleen doorgaan, misschien leer ik nog wat.

Met de vriendelijke groeten, :}


Shorty Final
18th Nov 2004, 16:27
Herzliche Grüßen to you as well mr IFTB :) get involved why not?
The killling of the Dutch filmmaker and the possible connections to Germany has led to sharp reactions from German politicos also.Der Spiegel writes that Kulturminister Annette Schavan from Baden-Württemberg is demanding that all sermons in the Mosques must happen in German from now on.-we can not longer allow that sermons are held in a language not understood outside the muslim faithgroup-She warns against the creating of paralell societies living isolated from eachother. –if not everybody in a free society is willing and able to exprss themself in the countries language,than mutual mistrust will get stronger- she says.
Blacksheep much respect.

18th Nov 2004, 16:29
Interesting to note that Danny's article ommited to mention that 2 of the Hofstad Netwerk are white Americans and non-muslim.
The Dutch intelligence service, I am led to believe, has close links with both the Isreali and Interpol intelligence networks, so it comes as some surprise that they are so crap at finding the right people. A few weeks ago, they raided a house and took the whole family away to a police station, trashed the house looking for weapons. Only problem was they got the wrong house, wrong family and wrong city. The Home Office minister was then forced to apologise on tv. The Dutch police are good at handing out traffic tickets, but don't ask them to do anything complicated like sort out a neighbour dispute or complaints that the neighbours like playing Hitlers Ein Volk speech at maximum volume. :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

There have been other instances where the Dutch intelligence service have got it so wrong (twice made false claims of impending terrorist attacks in Rotterdam and Schiphol), that the public have lost faith in them. Let's not forget the LPF politician who sent a threatening letter to himself and signed it as though it was from one of the muslim terror organisations. Tosser.

In a country of 16 million, when 1 million follow the muslim faith, there is likely to be a certain number of AlQ symapthysers, in the same way that there were Dutch and Germans who gave support to the IRA terrorist cells on mainland Europe in the 1980s and 90s.

West Coast, I still cant fathom out what the hell you are trying to say. I know it is English but... :E

tony draper
18th Nov 2004, 16:35
Are you saying the Israeli intelilgence service are crap Mr Pups? they don't seem to have much trouble tracking down the Hammas leadership, then doing the right thing by them with a Hellfire.

18th Nov 2004, 16:39
Mr. Draper,

I thought you might have been able to interpret better than that. If I havent made myself clear then let me try again

The Dutch intelligence service has close ties with the Isreali and Interpol intelligence networks. Therfore, it comes a some surprise to me that the Dutch intelligence service is so woeful at doing its job.

I hope I have cleared up that misunderstanding.



tony draper
18th Nov 2004, 16:45
Apologies Mr P, one did misread your post.

18th Nov 2004, 16:50
Noting the 'ommision' in the report I referred to, it does say: "...composed mostly of young Dutch Muslims of North African descent..." (My emphasis). I hope you're not going to start one of those nitpicking exercises now FP! :ooh:

Radical extremism is abhorrent whether practiced by: (Select one from each group)

Black, White, Brown, Yellow, Red, Pink

Christian, Muslim, Jew, Sihk, Hindu, Buddhist, Jedi

Male, Female

West Coast
18th Nov 2004, 17:17
"West Coast, I still cant fathom out what the hell you are trying to say. I know it is English but..."

This is current and newsworthy. Is it not?

Simply trying to get to the bottom of the story, beyond the press clippings. My only angle.

Seemingly by your own admission the Dutch government is not up to the task of dealing with Islamic terrorism in its current form. I am trying to explore what changes will have to be made to allow them to effectively deal with this growing menace. Reluctantly I think changes to the open society the Dutch enjoy will be required. Al Queda isn't a gathering threat on the horizon. They are among the Dutch now and that means immediate steps are required. I wonder what those steps will be. Sept 10th I didn't feel any imminent threat and a need for quick action, but I was wrong.
Unlike many others on this forum I am not under the delusion of the absoluteness of my opinion. I have no guilt in saying I don't know will happen to subjects I have not been thoroughly exposed to. I look to solicit differing opinions here and elsewhere on the subject to help my understanding of the subject. I suppose I could simply seek a link to a journalists op/ed piece about any given subject as my instantly developed opinion to a problem. As one sided as it is, its prevalent among the cut and paste intellectuals on jet blast

There is a certain liberation in saying I don't know, not shared by some here. There is a car in the neighborhood that sports a bumper sticker that expresses the danger of having a strong opinion about things you know little about.

18th Nov 2004, 17:32

nit-pick? moi?

Words are, sadly, my business and knowing how phrasing facts can change the interpretation, it is important to be aware that, like most things in life, nothing is black and white. Depending on how facts are presented and filtered, initially by a reporter, then by an editor and finally by the reader, the "truth" can be lost somewhere down the line.

I think it is a pretty major fact that 2 out of 13 members of a muslim terror cell are white kids. If they are using front men who blend naturally into the host nation, it is an interesting new tactic, n'est pas?

Anyways, fully in agreement with you about extremists, radical or otherwise. The fewer patriots/politically inspired weirdos (or just politicians in general)/religious freaks there are in the world the happier I will be.

West Coast
20th Nov 2004, 04:32

I somewhat admire this guys gumption. I'm sure he will make Mr. Drapes Christmas card list.
By one estimate, 100,000 who subscribe to radical Islamic views in the Netherlands.

20th Nov 2004, 11:17
If you admire Geert Wilders I have no resepct for you at all.

Up to a couple months ago noone had haerd of Geert Wilders, except a maybe a few other MP's who asked him to turn down his hairdryer during Question Time. Then he got into a brawl with his party leader over the question of Turkey joining the European Union. Not only does he look like Pipo the Clown, his policies are laughable, or they would be if they hadn't been picked up by the far right wing in the Netherlands. :yuk:

He then created his own political party, initially with just him in it. He is playing the same game as Pim Fortuyn. Like Pim Fortuyn he only has one interest and that is himself. He is unashamedly campaigning on a nasty, racist, bigoted and deeply flawed xenophobic platform. In the same way that the LPF gained seats in parliament based on media hype and a lack of understanding by the dimwits that voted for it - Geert wilders is using the assination of Theo van Gough to create a political movement that mixes racial hate and religous fear. People like Geert Wilders are on the same level as the BNP and their supporters are neo-nazi facist thugs. I know, I live next door to one and they are making life for me and my family hell.

So West Coast if you want to stand shoulder to shoulder with a peroxide blonde facist go right ahead. I have seen your true colours now and they are not very pleasant.

tony draper
20th Nov 2004, 11:32
One is deeply hurt Mr Pups, we are the new age facists, we are not brutes, we will give you a Valium before we shoots yer.

20th Nov 2004, 15:03
I wouldn't say "Blondie" or "Mozart" (that's how we call Wilders here) is a neo-facist, Puppy. Just a xenophobe populist playing on the feelings of fear amongst the population. His politic ambitions are deep as a sourcer and he hasn't presented anything else than hate of foreigners. He's directly responsible for the current raise of Muslim hate and find a fertile soil for groups such as the "Lonsdale Youth". In no way does he has the class and vision of Fortuyn.

Shutting borders to Muslim immigrants wouldn't make any difference, all or most of the arrested radical Muslims are of Dutch Nationality and these are being teached by Dutch, French, German or Spanish radicalist Imans free to travel through the EU. Shutting borders is a very appealing, but hollow phrase.

Any xenofobe would get a birthday or Xmas card from Herr Draper...

tony draper
20th Nov 2004, 15:38
Alas one is misunderstood, one holds the perfectly sensible opinion that this world would be a far far better place were it peopled entirerly by Englishmen, is all.

PS, Preferably, Northern Englishmen.

20th Nov 2004, 15:39

I never said Wilders was a neo-facist, but those that are providing him with political support certainly are.

Was interesting to read that the knuckle draggers who are identified as "Lonsdale jongeren" wear that aprticular clothing brand, simply because it contains the letters NSDA. The NSDAP was better known as Hitler's Nazi party.

I think it was Homer Simpson that said "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"


Everyone knows that Northern Englishmen would prefer to be Scotsmen. Think of the parties we would have :)

West Coast
20th Nov 2004, 16:11
"He is unashamedly campaigning on a nasty, racist, bigoted and deeply flawed xenophobic platform"


"I never said Wilders was a neo-facist"

Splitting hairs. Your language in the first hardly allows you to deny the second.

20th Nov 2004, 17:02
West Coast,

After this post you will have joined a select club. Only one other person has ever made it onto my Ignore list, fortunately she has now been banned.

20th Nov 2004, 20:37
I've waited for the venting to cease before replying to this very interesting thread. I am also glad that really no one went over the wall with accusatory remarks and kept it on-topic, except for the topic starter, who I couldn't figure out either.

With an economic downslide in Western Europe, in general, people have been looking for scapegoats. The Germans have been the hardest hit and they have to be blamed for their past practices of the 1970s of importing guest workers from then Yugoslavia and Turkey. Well, as it turned out, these guest workers remained permanent and with the liberal policies adopted throughout Europe, they were able to be joined by their mother, father, cousin, second cousin and cousin-to-be.

Just a thought at the end. Turkey has very high hopes of joining the EU. Turkey's unemployment rate far exceeds that of any Eastern or Western European country. Do you think the Turks will come to Baden-Baden for a vacation? I don't think so. Most of them can't even afford the train fare from Instanbul to Ankara. If Turkey joins the EU look for another influx of "guest workers" and so-called visitors.

20th Nov 2004, 21:37
And here, by the way, is the latest take on integration into the community by those from far lands. Anybody out there think it will work?


EU officials implore new immigrants to learn 'European values'
- CONSTANT BRAND, Associated Press Writer
Friday, November 19, 2004

BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) --

European Union justice and interior ministers agreed Friday that new immigrants to the 25-nation bloc should be required to learn local languages, and to adhere to general "European values" that will guide them toward better integration.

Dutch immigration minister Rita Verdonk, who chaired the meeting, said all countries agreed to make integrating newcomers a priority, considering the growing ethnic tensions as EU nations struggle to absorb a steady stream of poor, mostly Muslim immigrants.

Just this month in the Netherlands, the slaying of filmmaker Theo van Gogh by a suspected Muslim radical unleashed a wave of attacks against mosques, churches and religious schools in a country once famed for its tolerance.

Tensions also rose in Belgium, where authorities arrested a suspect Friday accused of sending death threats to a senator of Moroccan heritage who criticized radical Muslims.

"It's not like we are against immigration," Verdonk said. "If you want to live in the Netherlands, you have to adhere to our rules ... and learn our language."

Highlighting a European-wide problem, Verdonk said that some 500,000 Turkish and Moroccan immigrants in the Netherlands don't speak Dutch.

For now, integration policies across the continent vary greatly. Public concerns over immigration have fueled electoral successes for far-right parties in several European countries, including Austria and Italy, where they have joined the national government.

Many Muslims have bristled at new rules targeting immigrants that they say amount to racial profiling that is insensitive of their religion.

Yet incoming EU justice and home affairs commissioner Franco Frattini told reporters in Rome that integration had to be an essential part of an EU policy.

"We can't imagine an immigration policy that focuses only on the prevention of illegal immigration, without considering the integration of those who want to enter a European country to live and work there in full respect of the law of both the country and Europe," Frattini said.

The EU ministers also set out a list of 11 nonbinding guidelines for governments and immigrant communities, including accepting basic European values, providing employment and education, knowledge of the local language, culture and history, and open access to local health care and other public services.

West Coast
21st Nov 2004, 03:51
"made it onto my Ignore list"

Shame dissenting opinion forces this. Now FP will hear only what he/she wants to hear.

"European values"
Shouldn't that simply be values? Do European values differ from those in, say New Zealand or the US or Canada?

21st Nov 2004, 04:35
Oh boy,

If anyone said what VERDUNK said here in America, the Democrats would be screaming to the high heavens about right wing intolerent facists...

The times, they are a changing. I think the world is going back towards a more pragmatic, and less naive time...


Captain Chuckles
21st Nov 2004, 09:16
Do you mean this sort of more pragmatic, less naeive time?


21st Nov 2004, 09:20

Interesting link...

And during all that time the European powers were trying to negotiate a peaceful solution with him.


Captain Chuckles
21st Nov 2004, 09:29
Henry Ford formed a mutual admiration society with Hitler; the Fuhrer hung a large portrait of Henry over his desk, and even sent Ford a medal for his birthday in 1938. It was the Grand Cross of the Order of the German Eagle, the highest honor the Reich could bestow on a noncitizen. Ford's German factories built a huge amount of war material for the Nazi's (Junkers 52/Ford TriMotor? See a resemblance? ford were building them for use in the Spanish Civil war)) Also in 1938, American hero Charles Lindbergh traveled to Germany to accept the Service Cross of the German Eagle, the second highest honor available to foreigners. The father of the California governor was a member of the SS. Members of the Bush family were involved in and profited greatly from laundering money for the Nazis even after America had declared war on Germany. So whats your point?

21st Nov 2004, 09:58
Chuckles, please state in clear unambiguous language the relevance of your last 2 post to this thread.
I stress the relevance.
I can see why it could be relevant, but unless you clearly state it, this thread will now derail post-haste and end up with the padlock

21st Nov 2004, 10:12
Flypuppy questions 'if there is a real "lurch to the right" or whether the right wing nutters are just able to shout louder and grab the headlines more.'

I believe both are true. Being a regular visitor to the so-called Bible Belt of the US over the past twenty years, there has been a noticeable shift to the right, if not a full lurch then definitely a stagger. Extremism, intolerance and an increased level of fundamentalism are all visible in this part of the world. In addition to this the right wing nutters ARE able to shout louder and grab the headlines more.

What is worrying is that the far right is becoming better funded, more organised and more vocal. Even if they remain a small proportion of the population, these changes make them a far more potent political force. The NRA has always been well funded a well run, but the fundamentalist side was always more tub-thumping than a real force, This has now changed and political power is being taken away from the apathetic people and put into the hands of whoever can be bothered to get off their lazy @rses and go and shout the loudest.

With this political shift in the US, how long is it before we see the teaching of Creationism being compulsory and Evolution being optional? How long before abortion is outlawed?

If these changes take place then our remaining superpower will not so much 'lurched to the right' as marched in that direction with Crusade banners waving.

When freedoms are gone and bigotry rules I will stop visiting.

21st Nov 2004, 10:17
not easy to be the devil's advocate, but you are right.

A precision : Lindberg was an admirator of the 3rd reich after he went in psychological trouble after the loss of a beloved being.

after US entered war, he came back to a more "acceptable" opinion but, the damage was irreversible to his reputation.

US didnt move while the blitzkrieg, Poland invasion, Austria invasion, Denmark invasion, Finland allegeance. They moved when stalin and hitler decide to share their cake.

I must also say that the major french industry "captains" like michelin, citroen, renault, l'oreal and many other old-bourgoisie catholic families were very nazi-compliant, seing in hitler ideas a materialization of their basic values : order, discipline, purity, faith etc etc..
Michelin and friends were also known to have setup a secret organization called "la cagoule" (the mask) whitch role was simply to murder left opponnents and syndicalists and terrorism against the laic republic, not less .

Woolie :
"When freedoms are gone and bigotry rules I will stop visiting"
amen :yuk:


Captain Chuckles
21st Nov 2004, 10:22

The point I am trying to make is that Muslims in the Netherlands are now being demonized, not in the media, but by a groundswell of opinion that has been building since Pim Fortuyn started his campaign about 4 years ago. He was smart and listened to what the “common man” was saying in the working class housing estates in Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Dordrecht, and Utrecht. He covered it with a thin layer of politici-speak and started the fermentation process. This exactly the same sort of tactic Hitler used in 1933 and onwards. Geert Wilders is using the same sort of tactic and playing on the death of van Gough.

Rita Verdonk is a right wing intolerant and some of her comments have echoed things that have caused older Dutchmen to worry about history repeating itself.

The comments of Wino, Ben There and West Coast are obviously from right wingers who do not understand Europe in general or the Netherlands in particular. The comments of both Wino and Ben There lead me to the conclusion that we need to stop all the hate talk before we get to a Muslim version of Kristallnacht. My link was intended to point this out.

Ben There, felt the necessity to indicate that European countries were engaged in treaties with Nazi Germany, I felt it was important to point out that history, as written by the victors, has quietly forgotten the US involvement in Nazisim.

My point is, we need to stop the hateful words before they turn into deeds that will bring us all to a point of no return. We have been here before and we need to realize that.

21st Nov 2004, 10:45
Clear, unambiguous and relevant.
Thank you Chuckles.

21st Nov 2004, 10:50
Westy, opinions are the same the world over (in case you didn't know;) )

When things were good here in the 60's and 70's, large numbers of Pacific Islanders were brought in to do the jobs which "ordinary" (meaning white middle class) Kiwis wouldn't do. That was back when we had an Empire all of our own; bet quite a few Prooners never knew NZ used to have a Pacific Empire.:p

Now, when things aren't so rosy, many folk begin to say things like "cocoanuts go home" etc.

We don't got the problems with Islam and so on which other nations have just now.....and Dutch citizens have had favoured immigration status here for at least half a century, as have Noggies and other Scandihooligans. That's just because they're the sort of people we want most.:)

But there are still problems, and it's mostly to do with human nature being what it is. No matter where you are, xenophobia will find a way of rearing it's ugly head.

21st Nov 2004, 14:10
Chuckles, relevant... only to a point. There are differences in the reasons behind the the rising xenophobia and racism. To compare the actions of the elected government (let's not forget that Hitler was elected initially) and the laws that were passed against an indigenous population cannot compare to those of just one rogue politician against an immigrant population with a minority who are radical and extreme with their own agenda.

Incitement to violence is unacceptable, both from the right wing politicians AND from the extremists amongst a largely immigrant group of muslims. I don't remember reading anything in the history of the third reich era nor hearing from my own mother who was almost a teenager living in Hitler's Germany when Krystalnacht happened, about a minority group of vocal, immigrant Jews threatening any other group of infidels or other ethnic backgrounds or even acting out beliefs and ritually murdering anyone who upset them.

Any demonisation of the Muslims in Holland or elsewhere for that matter is wrong just because a minority are very vocal with their own prejudices and ideas. The Jews living in Germany at the time of Hitler were not immigrants and there was no vocal minority inciting violence or hatred to anyone not agreeing with their beliefs. The Jews were demonised because it suited the ingrained racism that had been promoted by the Catholic church over the centuries and they were suitable scapegoats for the problems of past leaders.

The Europeans have a poor track record over the last couple of millennia when it comes to tolerance. Fortunately, there has been a lot of reform over the last half century, mostly for the better. With that has come a much more liberal society but we must never forget that, as a race, the natural tendency is for humans to be in conflict and the thin veneer of civility that protects most of us from the horrors of past behaviour can be so easily peeled away. As Chuckles so rightly points out, it doesn't take a lot to peek under that veneer whether it is against Jews or Muslims. Both are Semites! :hmm:

21st Nov 2004, 14:32
Well put, Capt. Pprune.

The thin veneer of tolerance, however, should not be confused with reaction to real world events. Islamic Jihad acting violently against innocents is the problem we all have. It's not muslims, it's not Moroccans or Palestinians per se, but the cult of violence embedded within the vast muslim diaspora that must be addressed and destroyed.

The jewish people victimized in WWII and for two thousand years of history were innocent. The Jihad warriors of today are not.

21st Nov 2004, 14:41
Ford Tri-Motor Junkers52, you are kidding. High wing, Low wing
Anyhow, As has been said, Intolerance/Bigotry is never far benearh the surface.
What is the answer, Integration? [Off thread slightly] The Pakistan High Commisioner is going to Yorkshire shortly, to encourage the "Muslim Peoples to integrate more with Local Communites" [quote from the BBC Radio News on Friday, I think]
Whilst this is very laudable, does the British High Commisiones go around the Britsh Enclaves in Spain encouraging Brits to be more active in their community? Or are they "Tolerated and not really wanted there"?
If people want to [fully] integrate they should be encouraged by the indidgenous population [hopefully] If they want to remain on the "periphery", then tolerance sould be the watchword.

21st Nov 2004, 15:23

Henry Ford was an antisemitic bigot his whole life who read believed and circulated the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" While he did discover mass production, he was a very stupid and naive man in other areas of his life.

Lindberg swallowed the whole Nazi thing hook line and sinker and NEVER repented for that. On touring the death camps he didn't think it was any different than a soldier killed in the field. While he did shoot down a Japanese Aircraft, and a strong proponent of thar war, his views of the world During WWII would be analogous to those here that see the need for the Afghan war, but not the war in IRaq.

Furthermore, it is quite probable that he killed his own son, as his son was mentally retarded (from taking Anne Morrow to too high an altitude in unpressurized aircraft without oxygen while she was pregnant) and he bought that Eugenics crap as well, hook line and sinker.

Oddly enough, I went to school in his house from Kindgarten till 6th grade at the Elizabeth Morrow School, in Englewood New Jersey. Did a lot of research on him. Started out as my idol, came to despise him. (I was in the shool from the 60s to the 70s, its much bigger now http://www.elismorrowsch.com/history.html


21st Nov 2004, 15:29

quote : "the cult of violence embedded within the vast muslim diaspora that must be addressed and destroyed"

I think you are wrong again, you melt muslims with djihadists.

The violence is not a part of the islam, not more that it is of the christianism or torah and shurely not in every muslim.

The violence has been appended to them as a seculary tool for ruling people.

In the basics, Islam is a peaceful religion, and some forget that the first protectors of christians and jews where the "enlighted sultans" .. BTW in spain, during the arab occupation, the jews were often considered as "wise scientist" advisers.

Jews were way more prosecuted by christians than by arabs.

BTW : "djihad" in islam doesn't mean "holly war" but "personnal effort", but some called to "djihad" and others confused it with a call to holly war.. But now, who would be fair enough to recall that to the media ?

Dig, dig again ...


Wino, thank you for the details, I was told that Lindberg, not to repent, just tried to be more discrete with his opinions, but you are right, good pilot, bad man.

Mac the Knife
21st Nov 2004, 16:08
Wino - (Lindbergh's)"....son was mentally retarded (from taking Anne Morrow to too high an altitude in unpressurized aircraft without oxygen while she was pregnant)"

I've no idea whether Lindbergh eventually killed his son, mentally retarded or not, but unless Anne Morrow was virtually dead of hypoxia herself the foetus would have suffered no harm. They're tough little bu99ers when it comes to hypoxia in this situation, with foetal haemoglobin that successfully oxygenates at low pO2.

Sounds like just another nasty story to me. Lindbergh, if you read his biographies, was for all his talents an exceedingly dull and naive man.

21st Nov 2004, 17:03
I heard the both stories, one is Lindberg became Nazi-friendy after his whife death, other was he was before but went back from nazism just berore US entered war.
You certainly can't call him naive, he was a perfect, clever , cold, meticulous and methodic "calculator" that is why his flight over atlantic succeeded.

21st Nov 2004, 19:03
This must be a Jetblast first:

Thread starts out political and ends up aviation related! ;)

21st Nov 2004, 19:24
Sorry Flaps, you're just right.

Hey ! let's bash McDo eaters Gorilla shouters ! :}

West Coast
21st Nov 2004, 20:49
I will say his grave site is one hell of a drive to get to.