Light Twin Comparison

[Dynamic Component]

Which light twin helicopter is the prefered one out there and why?How does the A109 power compare to the likes of the EC135, AS355 and Bell 427?
What other light twins are there out there?

Just Curious:E

DC

[Head Turner]

Hi DC. Before you look to see which is our choice of twin you really need to look at your requirements as far as;-
1. the number of passengers
2. typical sector distances
3. the area in which you operate
4. are your passengers all able to climb into and get out of the skidded versions
5. where your maintenance base is situated and who the engineers are
6. the availability of refuelling stops
7. would your passengers be happy to make refuelling stops
8. are there noise sensitive neighbour/places at your landing sites

the list is not exhaustive so once you know some or all the answers THEN you will probably come up with the answer.

The 109 with the increased MAUM is certainly very attractive sleek and easy for passengers to get in/out. The S version should do well.
The 135 is good but has short range and is quieter than the 109
The 355 is very nice for 3/4 passengers and has a good range
The 900 has a superb passenger cabin but very short range but beefy engines and a confortable ride and is quiet.

So what will meet your requirements?

[diethelm]

The U.S. Army currently has a draft RFP for 300 - 600 Light Utility Helicopters so we will certainly see what the Army thinks.

[PANews]

The U.S. Army currently has a draft RFP for 300 - 600 Light Utility Helicopters so we will certainly see what the Army thinks.........

I thought that that Light Utility programme was for single engine types .... Bell 407 EC120 MD500 sort of size.... Or is there another contract in the offing?

[diethelm]

There are two draft RFP's outstanding. One is for an ARH (Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter) which has also been referred to as the LRH (Light Reconnaissance Helicopter). The second is for a LUH (Light Utility Helicopter) which, as of the last draft publicly available, not required to be a twin but most of the "likely" aircraft are twins.

I do not have a direct link but I would assume Mr. Lappos or others would have a link to the draft RFP's.

[Eurobolkow]

Dynamic Component:

If it is a VIP aircraft you are looking for that is Single Pilot IFR, can carry 7 pax and has the right image then there is no comparison between the 109 Power and the other types mentioned.

The 135 is the dominant utility airframe in the UK but as Head Turner mentioned is a bit short on legs. Otherwise a capable and quiet machine.

The 355 and 427 are old technology but are relatively inexpensive to buy and maintain.

As always with a vague question of this nature it is very difficult to provide a definitive response.

[Dynamic Component]

Only looking at this stage.

Lets say it would have to be able to do utility(Lifting) and cart VIPs around.
What is the endurance like in the 109E and can it lift much?

I think noise is a issue everywhere in the world now(unless you live in the dessert).

DC

[rotornut]

I do not have a direct link but I would assume Mr. Lappos or others would have a link to the draft RFP's.

Yes:

https://arh.redstone.army.mil/rfp.asp

https://wwwproc.redstone.army.mil/acquisition/current_business.html

[Robbo Jock]

I read a review of the A119 in "Flyer" recently. Single engine derivative of the A109. The review machine was used for utility/VIP work as well. The reviewer was very complimentary, considering it ideally suited to the task.

[Giovanni Cento Nove]

SPIFR 109E with 7 pax????

Add IFR reserves with 7 pax and you are probably going the sum total of 'NOWHERE".

[PANews]

Eurobolkow posted...

The 355 and 427 are old technology but are relatively inexpensive to buy and maintain.

I concur with the 355 [the 109 and others] as being 'old technology' but not the 427 .... it barely exists it is so 'new.' And of course it will have to be a JAR27 build standard will it not.

Did you mean the 407?

[rotorspeed]

Depends on your requirements, but as a business acft AS355N has strong package of reasonable speed - 130kts, good range - realistic 350nm, and very good payload - full fuel + 4/5 POB, so IFR range pretty good with 4 pax.

Add reasonable running costs, great reliability, a very comfortable, fairly quiet ride for 4 pax, ability to take 6 if needed, and it is hard to beat as the inevitable compromise if you're paying your own bills!

[widgeon]

https://wwwproc.redstone.army.mil/acquisition/padds/web/W58RGZ04R0939/attach_exhib/perspec.doc

The solicitation mentioned above leads to this performance spec doc .
No ref to twin engines but requires dual hydraulics ( do oh-58D or OH6 have this now ?) and capability of single pilot IFR ops.

they are looking for a Commercial off the shelf solution.

is there another single besides ec130 and bell 210 that have dual hydraulics ?

[Kalif]

Giovanni Cento Nove wrote:

SPIFR 109E with 7 pax????

Add IFR reserves with 7 pax and you are probably going the sum total of 'NOWHERE".

Perfectly true, but for another reason as well.
Try putting seven pax into a VIP fit 109E and see where the CofG is. It just can't be done with a standard VIP machine. Your fuel load is so low as to make it unusable, but more importantly the CofG position is well outside limits, by a large margin. Getting rid of the front LHS pax will bring it into limits, but again as Giovanni says, no fuel to go anywhere.

[TangoMikeYankee]

I have 0 time in them, but how about a BO 105? The visibility is good, Passenger comfort is OK , aicraft speed is OK.
Its probably more of a utility aircraft, put if the interior is ok I guess it could do as a semi-VIP aircraft?
:D

[Head Turner]

Re A109E - note that there is now a mod for increasing the MAUM which ought to give some range when full IFR flight prevails.
Sensibly, the passenger load in a 109 would be 5 pax and pilot for an IFR flight with more or less 860 litres of fuel and the u/c mod the range and reserves should be as good as any other twin in IFR configuration.
I notice that nobody has mentioned the MD902 - why?

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Head Turner,

Apart from your own early mention of the 900, there's been no talk of the MD offering. It's perfectly capable of the USL ops you describe - our company intranet has some good pics of the recent JATE trials with all configurations up to 80 ft strop. Your own observations about the superb cabin hold true for pax comfort and visibility. Build quality is not so robust as the Eurocopter models, and as has been said in previous threads the NOTAR takes away payload equivalent to one pax.

Based solely on my limited experience (902, current 135 and a few cabbies in early 109s - the 212/412 probably doesn't count as they're a bit larger), I'd prefer the 902 over the rest so long as yaw control and long range weren't an issue. The 135 is well built, loads of yaw authority but a tiny cabin and - to use a phrase beloved of an instructor I know - the pilot was definitely not in the office that week when they put the cockpit together. The learning curve on the CPDS and AP is steep; it's nowhere near as intuitive as the 902. Why they need separate FADEC switches only Eurocopter can say, and for a lesson on twist-grip throttles take a look at how MD and Bell do them. Haven't operated the 214ST, but those throttles look fascinating...

If 7 pax IFR is what people are looking for, I assume the 145 would be under consideration too.

[Eurobolkow]

PA News: Apologies for that mistake I did indeed mean the 407 and not the 427 as you rightly point out.

As for the other comments on the 7 pax lack of range issue for the 109E the new modification should go some way to alleviating that problem and the Grand will go further again.

The same issue exists for most of the light twins available currently but at least with the 109 you will be 'going nowhere fast'

From a previous post can anyone confirm whether a 355N can full fuel and 5 pax?? If so what is 'full fuel' on an N?

[Kalif]

A standard IFR 355N, no floats & bags, 5 pax @ 85kgs each leaves 70% fuel (345 kgs) split 15% fwd/45% aft, plus 50 kgs of ballast in the rear boot to bring the CofG into limits.

Full fuel on an N, 100% is 577 kgs.:ok:

[rotorspeed]

Mr Selfish

Not sure what acft C of G Kalif is working on, but from experience a std IFR AS355N (no floats/air cond/EFIS) can take 6 x 85kg persons and 75% fuel (100% = 577kg) with no baggage, or 5 x 85kg persons and 90% fuel. Using EEW 1650kg, MTOW 2600kg. All within C of G.

Reckon on 235 litres/hour at 2000 ft ASL, 210 litres/hour at 5000ft ASL.

[Thomas coupling]

Dynamic

I think noise is a issue everywhere in the world now(unless you live in the dessert

If this is the case - forget the 109 :eek:

[Thud_and_Blunder]

I think noise is a issue everywhere in the world now(unless you live in the dessert).
Actually, here in the deSert :cool: we care quite a lot about it too - another area where the 902 is significantly ahead of the rest. When our 135 pops over where I live while I'm off-shift, you certainly know all about it. I used to have no problems sleeping-off my night shift when the 902 came to visit - never used to hear her. As I mentioned on another thread, though, the worst of the bunch has to be the BK117; both counties know when she's up and around down in D&C.

[Dynamic Component]

I do like the 902, but MDs future is up in the air right now as I understand it.I'm surprized to hear that the 135 makes more noise than the 902:confused:

I would deffinately like something like the 130 with 2 engines.It's got good viz, is quite and comfortable.:}

[Eurobolkow]

TC: You really do take a simplistic view on matters at times.

Firstly the A109E more than meets and exceeds the ICAO limits and second of all the new aircraft will be significantly quieter again due to the introduction of new trb's.

If noise was an issue for VIP operations of the 109 then it is hard to explain how it outsells the corporate variants of the other competing aircraft by about 8 to 1??

One would assume from your logic also that the 145 would fall in the same category as the 109 and be ruled out in any area where noise is a concern (e.g. MET!!!)?

[Thud_and_Blunder]

DC,

I'm not sure whether the actual volume of the noise is the issue, so much as the nature of the noise. Eurocopter make a big thing in their blurb about the measured PNdB being lower than the competition; however, I suspect the thing that makes people hear the 135 before the 902 is the "harsher" (subjectively assessed) note. We even had calls on my last unit when the 135 from an adjacent unit was overflying our area. Because to Joe Public one blue-and-yellow helicopter looks like another, some folk were concerned that there might have been something wrong with our a/c as it went past.

[Thomas coupling]

Eurobollockow: touchy are we sweetie?

When one purchases ones own VIP helo, I seriously doubt whether one cares what it sounds like from the outside. The lumpen proletariat can stick it:uhoh: The 109 is probably successful in this (corporate) area because it serves as a perfect VIP carriage:
Quick / Sleek / Italian :E
Thats about all its good for (:mad: ) ooops sorry it slipped out!

I agree with others re noise - on paper the EC135 is quieter than the 900. In reality....Mmmmmm??? It all depends on where the observer is at the time, I would suggest.
Discount noise as a factor for or against buying a 'best value' helo. Concentrate on operating costs and reliability.

[Eurobolkow]

TC:

Perhaps you need to read the start of this thread again. My first response was that the A109E is the corporate machine of choice in the market place with the 135 a useful utility aircraft (but one in which corporate clients feel sick apparently!!)

Noise is in some cases more of an issue for private operators who have to keep the peace with neighbours but I agree that it is rarely the be all and end all.

As for the 109E being quick, slick and italian, well it is all those things, however it is also very reliable, well supported, has low DOC and with new developments will be able to fly further, faster and with more payload than any of the competition.

[Head Turner]

So the 109 is the best or certainly will be with the 3000Kg MAUM and the Elite cabin and cost a cool 3.88 Mil Euro/£2.45M - go for it!

[quichemech]

Living under the flight path of a local 135 and visiting 902s, I cab verify that the 902 is much,much quieter than the 135 and it doesn't matter where you are stood in relation to the aircraft.

You don't hear the 902 until it's overhead.:ok:

Also it's currently cheaper.Hopefully production and spares problems will soon be a thing of the past if what is in the pipeline for MDHI comes to pass.:cool:

[Eurobolkow]

I would have to agree with quichemech, the 902 really is a quiet machine.

From what I understand though it is about to become an orphan left out in the cold and that can only mean that production and spares problems will get worse and not better.

[Hilico]

I can barely believe this - I've seen the Essex Police 135 sighing overhead and could not believe what I wasn't hearing. I only spotted my first EC120 by pure chance. That MD902 must be some machine!

[SilsoeSid]

"That MD902 must be some machine!"

It most certainly is Hilico, it most certainly is. :ok:

http://www.west-midlands.police.uk/AirOps/Images/intell_im.jpg

Have a closer look here. (http://www.west-midlands.police.uk/AirOps/index.asp)

[Thomas coupling]

FAR 36 appendix J states that the EC135 is 2Db quieter than the 902.

Silsoe: Fantastic and very professional web site, especially the Adobe 360 pics!!! Must pinch that idea for our site!

Shame about your 902 claims though:suspect:

[handysnaks]

TC, there is no doubt that to the'casual observer' (ie one listening with his ears and not measuring it with a machine), the MD 902 is quieter than the 135.

.....................and a cuff round the ear to the first one who says that this is because the 902 is probably U/S!

[quichemech]

Handy,

She might be a little more servicable if she didn't spend 355 days a year outside come rain, shine and howling gale:rolleyes:

As for being a lost Orphan, pish put about by the competition!:ok:


The Essex police machine was probably wheezing by, more than sighing with all the clobber it carries, didn't they send it back because it couldn't keep up with the ambulance?:rolleyes: